Fantasy GMG Jura vs Makarov

[iDooom]

Fairy Law is restricted. Who wins and at what difficulty?

 

[Brandish μ]

Jura. Makarov has power but as a combatant he has degenerated with his health, Jura on the other hand is in his prime combat wise. Magically there shouldn't be a great deal of difference between them, but health and body are on Jura's side.

 

[Holt]

Makarov was stronger than Jura at GMG so even though Makarov is older, he should still be strong enough to defeat that Jura. Tbh, I think most now think Makarov has dropped several leagues behind others but I think he's still very powerful, at least within Fairy Tail. In Alvarez, his priority was to try and avoid fighting and endangering the guild members hence his behavior. Regardless, he should still be strong enough to defeat GMG jura although with a fair bit of difficulty due to his age and perhaps diminished stamina

 

[Shasha23]

Makarov was stronger than Jura at GMG so even though Makarov is older, he should still be strong enough to defeat that Jura. Tbh, I think most now think Makarov has dropped several leagues behind others but I think he's still very powerful, at least within Fairy Tail. In Alvarez, his priority was to try and avoid fighting and endangering the guild members hence his behavior. Regardless, he should still be strong enough to defeat GMG jura although with a fair bit of difficulty due to his age and perhaps diminished stamina

I disagree with that, he saw he cant win and thought because of this his kids have no chance, because of his fear even after seeing Lucy and Gray's strength he didnt see that the kids would have won that fight, Makarov was probably surpassed by Laxus after the GMG and Erza, Natsu and maybe Mirajane should be stronger than him

Anyway Jura at that time would have struggled, but because he was younger and had more in the tank than Makarov he could have won, would have been a close one

 

[Holt]

I disagree with that, he saw he cant win and thought because of this his kids have no chance, because of his fear even after seeing Lucy and Gray's strength he didnt see that the kids would have won that fight, Makarov was probably surpassed by Laxus after the GMG and Erza, Natsu and maybe Mirajane should be stronger than him

Anyway Jura at that time would have struggled, but because he was younger and had more in the tank than Makarov he could have won, would have been a close one

Well I'm not sure where the current Makarov ranks in FT but I believe you're all severely underestimating him just because he wasn't exactly willing to engage in conflict. As for the age thing, honestly, I'm not sure why there's so much emphasis on this. Makarov might look a lot older now, but it's just about a year since GMG. He's older and would have diminished a bit, but not enough to make him invalid. It's not like Makarov overly showed shortness of breath or fatigue. Makarov was still stronger than Jura by GMG, the current Makarov should still be able to beat that Jura

 

[Shasha23]

Well I'm not sure where the current Makarov ranks in FT but I believe you're all severely underestimating him just because he wasn't exactly willing to engage in conflict. As for the age thing, honestly, I'm not sure why there's so much emphasis on this. Makarov might look a lot older now, but it's just about a year since GMG. He's older and would have diminished a bit, but not enough to make him invalid. It's not like Makarov overly showed shortness of breath or fatigue. Makarov was still stronger than Jura by GMG, the current Makarov should still be able to beat that Jura

His age has been an issue since Laxus wanted to take over the guild, he performed worse than what Laxus managed against Hades because of his health and age. He would only be valid if he was tag teaming with someone, unfortunately he is truly invalid and irrelevant in this war, cant fight cant help with the planing, useless if you ask me.
Ok enough of my hate but seriously this guy should have been killed off long ago but Hiro kept him on for reasons i cant explain, to make it worse for him unlike Hades or Warrod who kept up their strength he didnt.

 

[Brandish μ]

Why is Makarov stronger than GMG Jura? Certainly at BoS, but at GMG Jura was #5 ranked in the WS, this would be the highest possible rank Makarov ever achieved.

 

[Holt]

Why is Makarov stronger than GMG Jura? Certainly at BoS, but at GMG Jura was #5 ranked in the WS, this would be the highest possible rank Makarov ever achieved.

For starters because Jura lost to laxus? Makarov also said that Jura wasn't at Gildarts yet level though would've been a troublesome opponent nonetheless. Jura rose to #5 in the 7 year period when Makarov was missing and inactive. It doesn't say much

 

[Brandish μ]

For starters because Jura lost to laxus? Makarov also said that Jura wasn't at Gildarts yet level though would've been a troublesome opponent nonetheless. Jura rose to #5 in the 7 year period when Makarov was missing and inactive. It doesn't say much

Well Laxus and Makarov fought Hades with similar efficiency, you could actually say Laxus did better. Jura lost to Laxus says something about Laxus, not Makarov. I want to know why Makarov is stronger than GMG Jura? And this is a fight with Makarov declining health wise. Jura getting to #5 does mean that he at attained the level within the WS that Makarov would have at best achieved, and it speaks of his improvement.

Makarov speaks this of Jura v Gildarts. I have not read translations with Jura < Gildarts, they're mainly saying Jura is a match for Gildarts.

Spoiler: translation 1

 

[Holt]

Well Laxus and Makarov fought Hades with similar efficiency, you could actually say Laxus did better. Jura lost to Laxus says something about Laxus, not Makarov. I want to know why Makarov is stronger than GMG Jura? And this is a fight with Makarov declining health wise. Jura getting to #5 does mean that he at attained the level within the WS that Makarov would have at best achieved, and it speaks of his improvement.

Makarov speaks this of Jura v Gildarts. I have not read translations with Jura < Gildarts, they're mainly saying Jura is a match for Gildarts.

Are you saying laxus had already surpassed Makarov by GMG? Because I find that highly unlikely. Makarov was still supposed to be a standard of power as at that time.
Jura reaching the 5th rank is irrelevant because like I've said, Makarov was absent for a period of 7 years. I didn't say Jura is weak. Yes he earned the 5th rank but even though it's likely that Makarov wouldn't have moved past that rank, it doesn't mean he and Jura are equals.
Also, the implication is that Laxus overshadowed jura's 7 active years. Makarov was already a monster, so if laxus invalidated 7 years, why would Makarov be left behind? Anyway, it's mostly speculation since these things haven't been explicitly stated but imo, right up to the timeskip, Makarov was still a standard of power in FT. As for the age thing, tbh, I'm not giving much credit to that. Yes Makarov grew his beard and thus looks a lot older but we haven't seen him impaired in any way. It's pretty baseless to assume that he's declined or is declining.
On the fight, Makarov has Titan which I don't see Jura taking down. His strength in that mode is monstrous and the same goes for destruction levels as well as durability and tanking. Jura obviously cannot beat Makarov in a physical standoff and we've seen Makarov engage defensive spells rapidly to block attacks from Hades which destroyed a chunk of tenrou. Also, even in his injured state after fighting Hades, Makarov actually managed to singlehandedly halt Acnologia's advance temporarily. A feat that cannot be attributed to GMG Jura.
Anyway, I don't see how Jura would overcome Titan. In that mode, Makarov can likely brush off majority of Jura's earth attacks seeing as he block jupiters cannon with his bare arm with little damage. There's defensive spells to aid him for stronger attacks and his light magic as well (though we've not seen much of that except glimpses). Makarov also has flight/levitation and can also stretch limbs to add versatility.

 

[kkck]

IMO makarov is the more powerful one. It's hard to make a proper assessment of his abilities however I think there is a reason for him to be the standard for magic power over gildarts. As in, the springan's power is not compared to gildarts, it's compared to makarovs. Gildarts is without a doubt powerful and has probably grown stronger recently however as far as we last saw them I would go for makarov. Unless of course makarov has really deteriorated over the past year however that does not seem to be the case.

Now, the strongest makarov could have been among the wizard saints is 5, that is true however the implication is that at least 1 year back jura didn't compare to any of them. In other words, makarov could easily be stronger than jura 1 year back and still be inferior to the other 4.

 

[Coné]

I'd say that Jura wins because he has better combat speed, has a great defensive ability and he can probably finish this up with Rumbling Mt. Fuji. On the other hand, I don't really see anything Makarov has on Jura except for physical strength, which is kinda made useless because Jura can probably dodge or counter all of Makarov's attacks.

 

[Brandish μ]

Are you saying laxus had already surpassed Makarov by GMG? Because I find that highly unlikely. Makarov was still supposed to be a standard of power as at that time.
Jura reaching the 5th rank is irrelevant because like I've said, Makarov was absent for a period of 7 years. I didn't say Jura is weak. Yes he earned the 5th rank but even though it's likely that Makarov wouldn't have moved past that rank, it doesn't mean he and Jura are equals.
Also, the implication is that Laxus overshadowed jura's 7 active years. Makarov was already a monster, so if laxus invalidated 7 years, why would Makarov be left behind? Anyway, it's mostly speculation since these things haven't been explicitly stated but imo, right up to the timeskip, Makarov was still a standard of power in FT. As for the age thing, tbh, I'm not giving much credit to that. Yes Makarov grew his beard and thus looks a lot older but we haven't seen him impaired in any way. It's pretty baseless to assume that he's declined or is declining.
On the fight, Makarov has Titan which I don't see Jura taking down. His strength in that mode is monstrous and the same goes for destruction levels as well as durability and tanking. Jura obviously cannot beat Makarov in a physical standoff and we've seen Makarov engage defensive spells rapidly to block attacks from Hades which destroyed a chunk of tenrou. Also, even in his injured state after fighting Hades, Makarov actually managed to singlehandedly halt Acnologia's advance temporarily. A feat that cannot be attributed to GMG Jura.
Anyway, I don't see how Jura would overcome Titan. In that mode, Makarov can likely brush off majority of Jura's earth attacks seeing as he block jupiters cannon with his bare arm with little damage. There's defensive spells to aid him for stronger attacks and his light magic as well (though we've not seen much of that except glimpses). Makarov also has flight/levitation and can also stretch limbs to add versatility.

- Laxus v Makarov combat wise (and this is where I think you're getting confused) - quite possibly. Against Hades we saw both Makarov and Laxus get overwhelmed, with Laxus arguably doing better or at least as well as Makarov. Then Laxus trains for 3 months and just beats Jura.
- MP wise Makarov could still be above Jura. Makarov could be above Gildarts in this regard. He'd still lose in battle, mainly because of his health.
- It's not really irrelevant just because Makarov was away. Was he #5, or held in higher regard than Jura at GMG? By WS rank at least, Jura has achieved as much as Makarov has. Is this telling us Jura >= Makarov? No. But why is Makarov stronger? I can't see a reason to think he has to be, just because he is considered a monster. Laxus called Hades and Jura monsters too.
- Well I do think Titan is going to be a problem for Jura. Jura can still use earth magic because Titan is not fast. Jura's defences are strong. He could also cast Mt Fuji most likely, probably have a smaller output that A100 but still cause Makarov to use defensive spells that are high end. And then there is Makarov's health which is a concern (duration of his fight is lowered). If Makarov is dominating the exchanges while in Titan (let's say 60-40 split, Jura is not a scrub), I can also see Jura enduring through this for a little while. Just how long can Makarov keep going? Like I've said this battle has a time limit for Makarov, he just can't fight like he used to.

 

[kkck]

I'd say that Jura wins because he has better combat speed, has a great defensive ability and he can probably finish this up with Rumbling Mt. Fuji. On the other hand, I don't really see anything Makarov has on Jura except for physical strength, which is kinda made useless because Jura can probably dodge or counter all of Makarov's attacks.

I am not sure jura has ever done anything to suggest he is particularly speedy, specially over makarov. And at least in terms of pure magic skill and knowledge, I would say makarov has jura beat, easily at that. Makarov didn't win against hades but he showed immense physical strength and on top of that a number of powerful spells. Hades did best said spells however in context it was impossible to defeat hades at all at the time. It wasn't even natsu's insane when absorbing laxus' magic that beat hades, it was the cats destroying the heart. Otherwise hades would have taken the attack, literally laugh it off without a speck of a consequence and then bitchslap natsu regardless of whether he maintained the lightning flame mode or not. Hades took it easy against the gang, evidenced by hades merely increasing his power every time the gang apparently did something. The mount fuji thing was reasonably impressive when jura did it.

At least in terms of sheer scale it is pretty safe to say jura's attacks don't really match up to makarov's. Of course, size isn't necessarily everything but it is worth noting at least. Just look at makarov's giant form vs jura's attacks. What jura has here is youth but makarov has more spells and arguably even greater feats of raw power.

 

[Coné]

I am not sure jura has ever done anything to suggest he is particularly speedy, specially over makarov. And at least in terms of pure magic skill and knowledge, I would say makarov has jura beat, easily at that. Makarov didn't win against hades but he showed immense physical strength and on top of that a number of powerful spells. Hades did best said spells however in context it was impossible to defeat hades at all at the time. It wasn't even natsu's insane when absorbing laxus' magic that beat hades, it was the cats destroying the heart. Otherwise hades would have taken the attack, literally laugh it off without a speck of a consequence and then bitchslap natsu regardless of whether he maintained the lightning flame mode or not. Hades took it easy against the gang, evidenced by hades merely increasing his power every time the gang apparently did something. The mount fuji thing was reasonably impressive when jura did it.

At least in terms of sheer scale it is pretty safe to say jura's attacks don't really match up to makarov's. Just look at makarov's giant form vs jura's attacks. What jura has here is youth but makarov has more spells and arguably even greater feats of raw power.

Jura has the same combat speed as Laxus and he easily dodged Orga's attack and blitzed Orga afterwards. I think that if Jura doesn't dodge Makarov's attacks, he'd be at least able to create barriers. I won't deny that Makarov has more physical strength and magical power than Jura, but I can see Jura trumping that with his combat speed and defensive ability. Furthermore, to prove my speed point, I don't think Makarov has ever shown us that he's as fast as Laxus, so it's correct to assume that Jura is faster than Makarov. I would say that Jura takes this extreme diff...

 

[Holt]

- Laxus v Makarov combat wise (and this is where I think you're getting confused) - quite possibly. Against Hades we saw both Makarov and Laxus get overwhelmed, with Laxus arguably doing better or at least as well as Makarov. Then Laxus trains for 3 months and just beats Jura.
- MP wise Makarov could still be above Jura. Makarov could be above Gildarts in this regard. He'd still lose in battle, mainly because of his health.
- It's not really irrelevant just because Makarov was away. Was he #5, or held in higher regard than Jura at GMG? By WS rank at least, Jura has achieved as much as Makarov has. Is this telling us Jura >= Makarov? No. But why is Makarov stronger? I can't see a reason to think he has to be, just because he is considered a monster. Laxus called Hades and Jura monsters too.
- Well I do think Titan is going to be a problem for Jura. Jura can still use earth magic because Titan is not fast. Jura's defences are strong. He could also cast Mt Fuji most likely, probably have a smaller output that A100 but still cause Makarov to use defensive spells that are high end. And then there is Makarov's health which is a concern (duration of his fight is lowered). If Makarov is dominating the exchanges while in Titan (let's say 60-40 split, Jura is not a scrub), I can also see Jura enduring through this for a little while. Just how long can Makarov keep going? Like I've said this battle has a time limit for Makarov, he just can't fight like he used to.

No, I'm not getting confused over that. Laxus is a speedy flashy dude as compared to Makarov's Titan and thus might give the impression that laxus is the superior combatant. I don't think it follows tbh. Even in a physical battle, I don't see how Jura or Laxus couldn't trumped Makarov as at GMG.
For Laxus performing better against Hades, that's debatable. Laxus went in with a flurry of attacks, using his speed to get in close but that's not equal to him being stronger than Makarov. Even if he did perform better against Hades, it still doesn't equal being more powerful than Makarov because matchups count. Besides, Makarov was being a bit sentimental in that fight. He spent too much time oohing and aahing that Hades, a former master would act like this. That's beside the light anyway.

I've mentioned before but I don't get why much emphasis is placed on the age thing. Makarov grew a beard, doesn't mean his skills dulled or that his battle capabilities diminished. We saw him reluctant to fight but there was no indication that his combat abilities were inhibited by age. It's not even something that was alluded to in the manga but somehow, it's become a turning point in this. Makarov's age is irrelevant in regards to his combat ability right now. There's nothing to indicate he can't perform as much as ever. Also, like I said, this was a guy who after losing to Hades and getting shot through the chest, managed to hold back Acnologia enough for FT to make an escape (if they'd listened to him). So if one asks Makarov can keep going, I'd say as long as he needs to provided he doesn't take a fatal injury. Most agree that he far outweighs Jura in terms of MP and experience. He's also more durable physically. We saw how fast Makarov used 3 pillars to block against Hades even though it was such a large scale spell. That's an indication that he can handle what Jura can dish out. He's also very likely more resilient. Hades had to shoot a hole in Makarov to actually put him down and he didn't even stay down for long. With Makarov's defense spells and that granted by his Titan, I'm pretty sure he can take whatever Jura dishes. He's also fast and versatile enough to keep the latter from using potential dangerous spells that would require more time to use.

Personally, what I've seen is most acknowledging Makarov can indeed match Jura and hold the upper hand but will run out of steam eventually. I don't think the age thing is as much of an issue as most imply (at least there's no such indication in the manga) to cost Makarov the battle. The arguments for Jura aren't even really that he'd beat Makarov but that Makarov would tire out which, again, I see as pretty baseless. I mean, why can't he fight like he used to? Even if that's the case, how is it certain that his current stamina/durability wouldn't suffice? The only difference I see is a harder battle than it would've been for GMG Makarov. A similar example is Gildarts vs Bluenote when the latter was too exhausted afterwards and said he's gotten old. It didn't prevent him from winning any way.

 

[Brandish μ]

No, I'm not getting confused over that. Laxus is a speedy flashy dude as compared to Makarov's Titan and thus might give the impression that laxus is the superior combatant. I don't think it follows tbh. Even in a physical battle, I don't see how Jura or Laxus couldn't trumped Makarov as at GMG.
For Laxus performing better against Hades, that's debatable. Laxus went in with a flurry of attacks, using his speed to get in close but that's not equal to him being stronger than Makarov. Even if he did perform better against Hades, it still doesn't equal being more powerful than Makarov because matchups count. Besides, Makarov was being a bit sentimental in that fight. He spent too much time oohing and aahing that Hades, a former master would act like this. That's beside the light anyway.

I've mentioned before but I don't get why much emphasis is placed on the age thing. Makarov grew a beard, doesn't mean his skills dulled or that his battle capabilities diminished. We saw him reluctant to fight but there was no indication that his combat abilities were inhibited by age. It's not even something that was alluded to in the manga but somehow, it's become a turning point in this. Makarov's age is irrelevant in regards to his combat ability right now. There's nothing to indicate he can't perform as much as ever. Also, like I said, this was a guy who after losing to Hades and getting shot through the chest, managed to hold back Acnologia enough for FT to make an escape (if they'd listened to him). So if one asks Makarov can keep going, I'd say as long as he needs to provided he doesn't take a fatal injury. Most agree that he far outweighs Jura in terms of MP and experience. He's also more durable physically. We saw how fast Makarov used 3 pillars to block against Hades even though it was such a large scale spell. That's an indication that he can handle what Jura can dish out. He's also very likely more resilient. Hades had to shoot a hole in Makarov to actually put him down and he didn't even stay down for long. With Makarov's defense spells and that granted by his Titan, I'm pretty sure he can take whatever Jura dishes. He's also fast and versatile enough to keep the latter from using potential dangerous spells that would require more time to use.

Personally, what I've seen is most acknowledging Makarov can indeed match Jura and hold the upper hand but will run out of steam eventually. I don't think the age thing is as much of an issue as most imply (at least there's no such indication in the manga) to cost Makarov the battle. The arguments for Jura aren't even really that he'd beat Makarov but that Makarov would tire out which, again, I see as pretty baseless. I mean, why can't he fight like he used to? Even if that's the case, how is it certain that his current stamina/durability wouldn't suffice? The only difference I see is a harder battle than it would've been for GMG Makarov. A similar example is Gildarts vs Bluenote when the latter was too exhausted afterwards and said he's gotten old. It didn't prevent him from winning any way.

- Why is there a need to say flashy dude? I didn't imply Laxus was better because of his speed, I simply referred to the fight with Hades (performance and result based assessment).
- Sure match ups count. And you're right it doesn't mean Laxus is stronger if he performed better. But then again, is it more likely that someone is a better fighter if they performed better? I said it was quite possible that Laxus could beat Makarov, you said it was highly unlikely. Sentiments were really a non-factor against Hades, Makarov couldn't have performed any better.
- I don't think Makarov far outweighs Jura in MP. He's immensely powerful himself. It's clearly subjective to think Makarov far outweighs him (Jura is just below Gildarts level to me, MP wise). Someone who far outweighs Jura would be one of the Heavenly Kings, in my opinion.
- Age is not the real issue, but his health is. His endurance has been reduced, well at least the last time he fought intensely for some time. He's going to have a tough time dealing damage to Jura, given he's got great defenses (and is a monster just like Makarov); so this is not a quick fight. Certainty? Gee I wouldn't figure there's enough evidence for certain or even close to certain. Largely because he gets little panel time, but this goes both ways really. But I'll concede this, his health failing against Hades (and in Fantasia) might just be a one-off.
- Gildarts saying he's getting old just means he's feeling it physically like a lot of adults do when they pull up sore from exercise. Makarov is elderly, but still not relevant unless they are showing signs of waning (like Makarov's health).

 

[BluePegasus]

Jura high diff.

 

[Holt]

- Why is there a need to say flashy dude? I didn't imply Laxus was better because of his speed, I simply referred to the fight with Hades (performance and result based assessment).
- Sure match ups count. And you're right it doesn't mean Laxus is stronger if he performed better. But then again, is it more likely that someone is a better fighter if they performed better? I said it was quite possible that Laxus could beat Makarov, you said it was highly unlikely. Sentiments were really a non-factor against Hades, Makarov couldn't have performed any better.
- I don't think Makarov far outweighs Jura in MP. He's immensely powerful himself. It's clearly subjective to think Makarov far outweighs him (Jura is just below Gildarts level to me, MP wise). Someone who far outweighs Jura would be one of the Heavenly Kings, in my opinion.
- Age is not the real issue, but his health is. His endurance has been reduced, well at least the last time he fought intensely for some time. He's going to have a tough time dealing damage to Jura, given he's got great defenses (and is a monster just like Makarov); so this is not a quick fight. Certainty? Gee I wouldn't figure there's enough evidence for certain or even close to certain. Largely because he gets little panel time, but this goes both ways really. But I'll concede this, his health failing against Hades (and in Fantasia) might just be a one-off.
- Gildarts saying he's getting old just means he's feeling it physically like a lot of adults do when they pull up sore from exercise. Makarov is elderly, but still not relevant unless they are showing signs of waning (like Makarov's health).

Ok, not that Makarov far outweighs Jura in MP so to say. What I meant was that Makarov would clearly have the upper hand in terms of MP. Not that I mean there's a ridiculously large gap but there's a gap significant enough for it to be generally accepted that Makarov has the upper hand there.
I didn't say it was highly unlikely for Laxus to beat Makarov, I said it was highly unlikely that he had surpassed Makarov. There's quite a significant difference. It's like how in the battle of fairy tail arc, Laxus eventually lost to Natsu although he was still the superior fighter (though there was outside interference). Even at GMG, though Laxus bested Jura, my general impression was that he'd surpassed Jura so to say, but the gap was reasonably close enough for him to pull a win in some circumstances. In a battle of 5-10, I'd say Jura would win the majority (though slightly). Anyway, that's another thing and just my opinion. My point was that, it might been possible for Laxus to cause an upset if he fought Makarov but I believe that generally speaking, Makarov was still stronger. That's why I said I didn't think Laxus had surpassed Makarov not that he couldn't beat him. Again, this is by the way, let's not derail too much.
I never said it'd be a quick fight. GMG jura was in a caliber of opponents that can give pretty much everyone known at the time trouble but imo, the outcome of such a battle would be fairly clear and it'd go to Makarov. His health may not be what it used to be, but I don't think it's diminished that significantly.
Not to argue too much but obviously, most exercises leave you sore, just that younger ones can cope with this better than older ones who can't handle as much stress as they once could. What Gildarts was trying to say there was that the battle took a much bigger toll on him than it would've in the past and not necessarily because Bluenote was so powerful but because Gildarts body reacts more to stress that probably wouldn't have mattered much in the past hence my reference.

 

[Brandish μ]

Ok, not that Makarov far outweighs Jura in MP so to say. What I meant was that Makarov would clearly have the upper hand in terms of MP. Not that I mean there's a ridiculously large gap but there's a gap significant enough for it to be generally accepted that Makarov has the upper hand there.
I didn't say it was highly unlikely for Laxus to beat Makarov, I said it was highly unlikely that he had surpassed Makarov. There's quite a significant difference. It's like how in the battle of fairy tail arc, Laxus eventually lost to Natsu although he was still the superior fighter (though there was outside interference). Even at GMG, though Laxus bested Jura, my general impression was that he'd surpassed Jura so to say, but the gap was reasonably close enough for him to pull a win in some circumstances. In a battle of 5-10, I'd say Jura would win the majority (though slightly). Anyway, that's another thing and just my opinion. My point was that, it might been possible for Laxus to cause an upset if he fought Makarov but I believe that generally speaking, Makarov was still stronger. That's why I said I didn't think Laxus had surpassed Makarov not that he couldn't beat him. Again, this is by the way, let's not derail too much.
I never said it'd be a quick fight. GMG jura was in a caliber of opponents that can give pretty much everyone known at the time trouble but imo, the outcome of such a battle would be fairly clear and it'd go to Makarov. His health may not be what it used to be, but I don't think it's diminished that significantly.

We're probably misunderstanding each other (which is why I thought you were getting confused, wrongly I'd admit). This is a vs thread so we're talking about combat, so I brought up Laxus v Jura and Laxus/Makarov v Hades as comparisons for how they stack up in combat (for Jura v Makarov), then you asked if I thought Laxus surpassed Makarov, so in the context of this argument I am really thinking we're talking about fighting (and I said combat wise). If we're talking about MP then we could bring up a whole heap of virtually unquantifiable character statements about whose is bigger... like Makarov's warmth, benchmark in the guild etc, then you got Jura who is 5th on the WS and Laxus called his presence suffocating... we could go round and round with these type of things that aren't as important (in the context of a fight) as combat effectiveness. I see the gap between what you propose Laxus/Jura is as being the same as Makarov/Jura in terms of MP (which is what I think you're talking about there).

Not to argue too much but obviously, most exercises leave you sore, just that younger ones can cope with this better than older ones who can't handle as much stress as they once could. What Gildarts was trying to say there was that the battle took a much bigger toll on him than it would've in the past and not necessarily because Bluenote was so powerful but because Gildarts body reacts more to stress that probably wouldn't have mattered much in the past hence my reference

Well we agree about this, I said the same about adults "when they pull up sore from exercise". It's the soreness the next day (or hours after) that hurts, not while active.