Battle Gon vs Uvogin

[kenosecon]

Even if kurapika uses 1000% enhancer in his emperor time he is weaker than knuckle... 100% to kurapika doesn't mean the same 100% to knuckle... If knucles 100% is 10.000 aura kurapika's 100% is 1.000 aura's. it's just an example but you can see it just doesn't matter if it's 100% or not.

And your post only proves paml is using hatsu nothing else.

And that pic of uvogin ko is the same color and shape than his aura's... No difference at all. It might just be just an anime and colors for you but we animators take real care when making it ok?

When gon asked wing how to pass the test to g.i. Wing tood him to use all he knew at once and then he learned KO, and he used KO in the est and he destroyed the wall... Then when training with bisky she used her KO and then she said yes gon this is the teqnique you use it's name it's KO...

But that's NOT rock as rock was created later and if you use google translator you can try to see the text I left you before to realize that gon's rock is a hatsu using seiyaku so its much more strong than a simple ko...

---------- Post added at 08:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:58 PM ----------

I'll just put it her one more time for you...
既に出ていますが、ゴンのは「最初は～」の所でオーラ量が跳ね上がっていますから、それが制約になっていますね。ウヴぉーはただの硬。

 

[Phantron]

You can't base someone's power by just the destruction it leaves behind because then you get the conclusion that Meryem prior to rebirth is no stronger than a normal Reinforcement user since all he did was smash walls too. Ubogin's Big Bang can leave a decent sized crater, and Yupi did the same thing when he became angry. It's clear that there's no way the two have comparable strength. In fact it's hard to fathom any human, outside of Transformed Gon perhaps (even he has to dodge Pitou's attack), can possibly exchange hits with Yupi even in his normal form.

Here are the keypoints to compare to these two characters:

1. Rock has to be a stronger move because it's got two restrictions (you have to call it out, and it always takes time to charge). Ignoring the times Gon conveniently ignored the said restrictions for no penalty, these are actually pretty crippling disadvantages. That is, Ubogin doesn't shout out "BIG BANG COMING!" In the fight against Kurapika, we see that he actually tried to hide the Big Bang, so that Kurapika wouldn't be able to dodge it on time. Though you can argue Gon can do some degrees of deceptions, the fact that he must charge a large amount of aura on his hand is very hard to hide. Killua pointed out that even when he fakes a Rock, he still uses up the same amount of AP, because if you didn't focus that much AP at once, you can't possibly fool the enemy into thinking you're going to do a Rock.

2. Ubogin has a vastly stronger physical body. Age does matter as Netero is only 50% of his prime, presumably because he's way too old now. Likewise, Gon is way too young and there's no way his body is as developed as an adult. It's true that Gon randomly gets to focus ridiculous amount of AP to make up for his physical shortcoming, but we'll assume this isn't a story battle where he gets bailed out by Togashi.

3. Ubogin has more experience, and more importantly, he is always honing in his ability, whereas Gon is likely to slack.

For the most part having more aura does trump everything else and Gon is known to be able to focus an unfathomable amount of aura at once. Still, if not for his plot bailout he honestly should've died each time he charged up Rock. I mean if you're putting so much aura around your hand, the rest of your body has to have next to no aura around it so any hit should lead to grevious wound if not fatal. You would not be able to just shrug off a hit you take while charging up a Rock. In the fight against Genthru we see that he has to use 90% of his aura for both hands to use his technique, and I think it's safe to say Rock uses more AP at once than doing Little Flower with both hands. Therefore, the aura available to protect the rest of his body has to be well below 10%. Honestly it should be 0% (Zetsu) since once you get below 10% you might as well go all the way since nobody's defending anything with 10% aura on defense in the world of HXH.

---------- Post added at 10:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:04 PM ----------

I'd say if the two fight, what's going to happen is Gon charges up a rock, and Ubogin picks up a rock from the ground and throws it at him and kills Gon with the said rock because he has no aura left to guard the rest of the body, and the fight ends.

 

[kindredxiuxiu]

[mod="kindred"]This a formal, verbal warning to be courteous to others when discussing on this forum. I understand that some of you can get very involved in these discussions, but it's best to make your points clear and free of bashing or anything else meant to be derogatory to other members here. There have been some flame-y/bash-y posts deleted in this thread. If I see any more of this, it will be the mod hammer of doom next.[/mod]

In other news, I think adult Gon would probably win out over Uvo. Kid Gon would get beaten. They have very similar abilities, but Uvo's Big Bang would beat out Gon's unrefined rock. If Gon refined his rock more, it would be on par and surpass Uvo's abilities, I believe.

 

[Phantron]

I'd like to point out something that just about everyone that's decently strong Gon has fought so far after he learned his Hatsu aren't really trying to kill him. There's a difference between not holding back (e.g. Razor) and really tried to kill someone. If Razor wanted to kill Gon, all he'd have to do is throw an Emission blast while Gon is charging up the Rock. Therefore the weakness of his technique, namely taking any signficant while charging up his move, is irrelevent because none of his opponent is actually trying to kill him. Even someone like Genthru is still more interested in defeating him alive (for the GI cards) since it's not like killing Gon does him any good toward his goal of gathering the cards.

The only way his move would work in a real fight to the death is if he possesses the kind of power comparable to his transformed self. That is, you see in the fight against Pitou he simply tosses Pitou in mid air and then charge up a Rock. It'll also work in conjunction with Killua's ability to stun pretty much anybody with his lightning attacks. But this move really is useless in a 1on1 in a fight to the death unless he's already way stronger than his opponent. Knuckles had a hard time fighting Gon because he is too nice to actually kill him. That is, each time Gon does Rock, Knuckles knows this is an extremely powerful move and the best way to deal with it is just kill Gon first, but he's too nice to do that which is why he has such a hard time. He has to basically hit just hard enough to cancel it without killing Gon.

---------- Post added at 10:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:16 PM ----------

[mod="kindred"]This a formal, verbal warning to be courteous to others when discussing on this forum. I understand that some of you can get very involved in these discussions, but it's best to make your points clear and free of bashing or anything else meant to be derogatory to other members here. There have been some flame-y/bash-y posts deleted in this thread. If I see any more of this, it will be the mod hammer of doom next.[/mod]

In other news, I think adult Gon would probably win out over Uvo. Kid Gon would get beaten. They have very similar abilities, but Uvo's Big Bang would beat out Gon's unrefined rock. If Gon refined his rock more, it would be on par and surpass Uvo's abilities, I believe.

What do you mean by adult? If you mean the fight against Pitou, Gon would hit Ubogin once and he'd die. His damage output easily exceeds that of Yupi (10000+ AP) in a regular punch unless Yupi is supposed to be able to make Pitou cough up blood with a single hit. Now let's say that level is unlikely to be obtained (it'd require Netero level of dedication and no way Gon is that dedicated), but he progresses normally until say the age of 30. Yeah of course by then Gon will still easily win. His potential is unrivaled in HXH, so unless he totally neglected his training for the next 20 years there's no way Ubogin, who is a hard working but otherwise totally normal Reinforcement user, can possibly match up to the potential of a guy who is widely described as a 'monster' by some of the most powerful characters we've seen so far.

 

[kenosecon]

Anyway uvo's ko didn't kill kurapika only broke his arm and kurapika was not using ko.
Knuckle used ko to defend agaisnt rock and he was defeated easily.

The result? Rock is stronger...

Rock is a hatsu with limitations or seiyaku same as kurapika's nen. So its several times stronger than a normal ko.

 

[Phantron]

Anyway uvo's ko didn't kill kurapika only broke his arm and kurapika was not using ko.
Knuckle used ko to defend agaisnt rock and he was defeated easily.

The result? Rock is stronger...Rock is a hatsu with limitations or seiyaku same as kurapika's nen. So its several times stronger than a normal ko.

Nobody does Ko on Ko unless they're suicidal. Like Biscuit pointed out even a slight miscalculation on the defender's part results in the defender dying horribly. Yes Gon can do Ko on Ko but that's because he literally cannot die. The whole part where Gon used Ko on 'hand and head' is ridiculous anyway, since Ko is supposed to be only usable on one point. And if you used Ko, the rest of your body has no aura which means his leg should've been torn off from the impact that knocked him back.

Knuckles did not use Ko to guard against Rock, because he's not suicidal either. That is, he can reasonably guess that he'll still live even if he gets KOed by Rock with a Ken level defense, but if he tries to use Ko and guessed wrong (which is entirely possible) he'd be totally dead, so he decided to take the safer approach. Rock is stronger as a technique due to its higher restriction, though given Gon literally never pays for its penalty either (no defense while charging up), I suspect its power is somewhat diminished to acknowledge Gon's apparent ability to withstand damage while in a Ko-like state.

 

[kindredxiuxiu]

What do you mean by adult? If you mean the fight against Pitou, Gon would hit Ubogin once and he'd die. His damage output easily exceeds that of Yupi (10000+ AP) in a regular punch unless Yupi is supposed to be able to make Pitou cough up blood with a single hit. Now let's say that level is unlikely to be obtained (it'd require Netero level of dedication and no way Gon is that dedicated), but he progresses normally until say the age of 30. Yeah of course by then Gon will still easily win. His potential is unrivaled in HXH, so unless he totally neglected his training for the next 20 years there's no way Ubogin, who is a hard working but otherwise totally normal Reinforcement user, can possibly match up to the potential of a guy who is widely described as a 'monster' by some of the most powerful characters we've seen so far.

Adult Gon probably isn't the right term, but I meant the "transformed" Gon that destroyed Pitou during CA arc. Otherwise, I'm pretty much in agreement with you. I wouldn't say Uvo is a completely normal Reinforcement user, but he is well-trained and good at what he does. In this case, he would be up against what, like you described, a 'monster'. Either way, Gon as he is now in the manga, would not have a refined enough hatsu to stand against Uvo's skills. 20 years from now when he's had more training and practice? That would be a different story.

 

[KingOfNight]

Phantron, since when was shouting the attack name a restriction ? Taking time to charge isn't a restriction either. You're missing the point of restrictions completely. He didn't make any vows or place any restrictions. He shouts the name because he's stupid as pointed by Killua. He takes time to charge because his inexperienced.

 

[baboysai]

I agree, there are no restrictions to Rock.

If he practiced and trained more to have a fluid transition to Rock, then maybe he could "damage" uvo, but still, in his current state I really don't think he can win.

 

[Phantron]

Adult Gon probably isn't the right term, but I meant the "transformed" Gon that destroyed Pitou during CA arc. Otherwise, I'm pretty much in agreement with you. I wouldn't say Uvo is a completely normal Reinforcement user, but he is well-trained and good at what he does. In this case, he would be up against what, like you described, a 'monster'. Either way, Gon as he is now in the manga, would not have a refined enough hatsu to stand against Uvo's skills. 20 years from now when he's had more training and practice? That would be a different story.

The transformed version is likely way beyond Gon's likely peak when you consider that Gon is unlikely to devote decades into training, which is what is needed to attain that level of power. The version of Gon has no rivals in the human world. The level Gon is likely to achieve is significantly lower than the transformed version simply because of who he is (he's just not that interested in becoming strong), but his 'monster' heritage should still be more than enough to deal with Ubogin if he's the same age as him.

 

[kenosecon]

sadly that is a restriction and that's the reason gon's rock has a lot more aura than it should as knuckle points out.

 

[Phantron]

Phantron, since when was shouting the attack name a restriction ? Taking time to charge isn't a restriction either. You're missing the point of restrictions completely. He didn't make any vows or place any restrictions. He shouts the name because he's stupid as pointed by Killua. He takes time to charge because his inexperienced.

Even in the fight against Pitou when his power clearly surpasses the limit of human capability we can see Rock does not come out instantly, even though he can deliver 10000+ AP of damage at will at this point. The point is that he sat this restrcition (to charge) because he's inexperienced and figure it won't matter anyway, even though it does, as we see when he gets to be uber powerful in his transformation, he still needs time to charge up Rock despite being able to deliver damage that's off the scale for human levels at will.

Restrictions do not have to be explicit in the world of HXH. That said, shouting the name of the technique is probably not that big of a restriction given everyone can already see that he's charging up the aura around his hand anyway. The charge time is what really cripples the technique. Gon gets away with it for being the main character, but the easiest way to do it is just bring a rock or any object you can throw. If you see Gon charge up, throw a rock at him. If he can block it then the Rock is fake but he still lost all the AP he charged. If he can't block it, throwing the rock will just kill him outright because he has no defenses while charging. The way the manga made it look like the charging time isn't crippling, but it really is, and that's why Rock is extremely powerful because you've to abide by a condition that is insanely strict. Any top tier user would simply pick up an object or throw an Emission attack the moment they see anyone charge up that level of AP, and Gon would either die from the attack or be forced to abandon his technique.

 

[KingOfNight]

To be frank, I'm not buying it. I'm the type of person who believes in "Absolute Proof." Unless it's actually stated to be a restriction, I can't take it. Especially after Wing warned him not to use any restrictions whatsoever. Would be retarded for him to do so even after being warned, don't you think ?

 

[kenosecon]

knuckle using ko to defend...

btw I can't read manga in mangareader... why do they block japanese ip's is not like japan cares....

---------- Post added at 10:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 PM ----------

To be frank I'm not buying it. I'm the type of person who believes in "Absolute Proof." Unless it's actually stated to be a restriction, I can't take it. Especially after Wing warned him not to use any restrictions whatsoever. Would be retarded for him to do so even after being warned, don't you think ?

when killua and gon were talking about developing a hatsu they agreed on using restrictions but in a much lower level than kurapika... in a level their lives wouldn't be in so much danger.

killua uses ectricity which can kill him used wrongly and gon uses the time to charge up his attack without any kind of defence.
both are using restrictions...

wing only said don't do he same as kurapika's ablitu to put a chain in he heart or something similar.

most abilities use restrictions... even pitoh can't heal using en

 

[Phantron]

I really don't know what to make of Wing's suggestion. He says to not do anything risky and yet he basically say 'so you should learn Ko'. Ko is arguably one of the riskiest moves in all of HXH. It's basically a kill or be killed move, and the risk is definitely against you (you're far more likely to die using Ko than your opponent). What restriction can honestly be more dangerous than a move that has a high probability of killing yourself? The implicit Zetsu to use Ko is one of the most dangerous restriction you can possibly apply to yourself. And Rock absolutely has a near Zetsu if not outright Zetsu restriction too, otherwise where does the aura even come from? Little Flower uses up 90% of Genthru's available aura to be used on both hands, and there's no way the amount of aura he uses is comparable to rock. That is, you don't see anyone saying Genthru is a monster for gathering enough AP to use Little Flower on both hands, but pretty much everyone's reaction to the amount of aura gathered for rock is one of shock.

 

[KingOfNight]

Ko is risky, but the risk can be overwhelmed with skill and experience. Didn't we see Gon use Rock's weakness to his advantage in the latest episodes ?

 

[KingOfNight]

here's the page. you've been served. end of the conflict regarding gon's condition.

That's not what he said in the Anime translation. The special ability he meant is Hatsu. He was basically saying we need a Hatsu that can fit our personality. The term Seiyaku wasn't used in that page, was it ? You should know, right ? You're all about Japanese after all. So no, nothing ends.

 

[Phantron]

Ko can't be overcome by experience unless you're as strong as transformed Gon who can basically one hit KO anyone and then use that time to leisurely charge up, or say when Gon and Killua are tag-teaming and Killua can just stun anybody with his lightning palm. If you get hit while you're in the state of Ko you're simply going to die because nobody can defend in Zetsu successfully against any reasonable opponent.

Gon overcoming the weakness of Rock is because he's the main character and cannot die. All you do is throw an Emission attack the moment you see him hold his hand in that position. What's he going to do? If he faked the Rock he'll block your Emission attack, but then you know the attack is fake. If he is really using Rock, he wouldn't be able to defend at all and most likely just dies. Even if you have no Emission attacks, just pick up a rock and throw it at him. The only reason Knuckles had a hard time against Gon is because Knuckles didn't want to kill anybody. He's an Emission type user, which is the school that can most easily deal with a Rock like technique (just throw a ranged attack and then you'll know for sure if the rock was real or not). The reason he didn't do it is because he's afraid of accidentally killing Gon. Rock is unbelieveably restrictive, which is why it's also unbelievably powerful. But without plot bailout, the end result of using Rock will just lead to the user's immediate death because the risk easily outweighs the gain.

 

[kenosecon]

gon receives a lot of damage when attacked doing jajanken. even the sloppy attacks from knuckle hit him hard.

if nuckle attacked seriously gon would have been wounded. but he won't die just by receiving an attack while doing jajanken or while in zetsu.

kurapika used KO (or gyo) against uvogin when he was chained in zetsu and uvo didn't die and also uvo didn't receive a deadly damage either...

the body strenght and muscle has a lot to do when in zetsu.

 

[KingOfNight]

you asked me a page and i gave it to you. now you say something about the anime? which ep is that? so i can watch it. in the manga the term was used

I can't find the manga raw so I check the anime since they use the same dialouge. "Seiyaku" was never used, so your page was worthless. Episode 59.