Battle Gon vs Uvogin

[kenosecon]

i think my page is pretty explicit they are talking about kurapika's restrictions and how to apply them to their new abilities

 

[KingOfNight]

I don't care. A manga fact was not presented, so I have nothing to discuss with you. Seeing how the previous discussion with you end up like.

 

[Phantron]

Assuming we're evaluating the character without the main character halo you can't go by what happens in the manga simply because Gon is never actually going to die no matter how much risk he takes.

Let's look at the power output of Rock. If it connects, it generally knocks out the opponent even if they guarded successfully (versus Knuckles, versus Genthru). The only way to guard its damage is presumably with Ko, but if the opponent makes any mistake on guessing the exact spot Gon is punching they'd also die. And this is against guys who severely outclass Gon in every aspect.

And yet the drawback is just 'take damage if you get hit while charging'? A move that can basically kill guys much stronger than you in one hit only causes you to lose a relatively large amount of AP + take some damage if the opponents counters it?

For the risk versus reward to even make sense, a failed Rock will lead to the user's death, just like a failed Ko should always lead to a user's death as well. Due to the plot necessity you're not going to have Gon or even Feitan dying on a failed Ko, but if you're not putting your life on the line to be doing damage that can one hit KO/kill an opponent much stronger than you, how is this even balanced?

 

[kenosecon]

that's the fact and i think everyone agrees . I watched the anime and they use the term but with an japanglish word "risk"... that's all.

---------- Post added at 11:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 PM ----------

Assuming we're evaluating the character without the main character halo you can't go by what happens in the manga simply because Gon is never actually going to die no matter how much risk he takes.

Let's look at the power output of Rock. If it connects, it generally knocks out the opponent even if they guarded successfully (versus Knuckles, versus Genthru). The only way to guard its damage is presumably with Ko, but if the opponent makes any mistake on guessing the exact spot Gon is punching they'd also die. And this is against guys who severely outclass Gon in every aspect.

And yet the drawback is just 'take damage if you get hit while charging'? A move that can basically kill guys much stronger than you in one hit only causes you to lose a relatively large amount of AP + take some damage if the opponents counters it?

For the risk versus reward to even make sense, a failed Rock will lead to the user's death, just like a failed Ko should always lead to a user's death as well. Due to the plot necessity you're not going to have Gon or even Feitan dying on a failed Ko, but if you're not putting your life on the line to be doing damage that can one hit KO/kill an opponent much stronger than you, how is this even balanced?

there's no balance... gon's KO punch can do a lot o damage. even destroy a huge rock or mountain. gon's rock is a lot stronger.
if gon used a ko punch agaisnt knuckle it would still be a lot of damage without any risk. rocks has risk so the damage is a lot more.

again uvo was attacked while in zetsu and he didn't receive a deadly blow. KO doesn't let you defenseless as you can change easily your aura from one spot to other and even if you are hit by a normal attack it won't be deadly.

now the tricky part is if both users are in a similr men level and one hit the other with ko while the other was defending with ko other part of the body. that user would receive a fatal blow. the user won't just die.... just receive a fatal blow... loose an arm or something like that

 

[Phantron]

To be fair the manga is terribly inconsistent with Ko and Rock. Obviously Wing's intention is for Gon to learn a 'safe but still pretty powerful move', which is why he warned him don't do anything like Kurapika. However, Ko turns out to be one of the most dangerous moves in HXH, and since Rock is basically Ko except it takes even longer to prepare (strong users can do Ko in relatively short time, but Rock is inherently slow by its restriction), this means Gon ended up learning a move that's arguably significantly more dangerous than Kurapika's Chain Jail. The weird thing is that he did get the payoff for using such a reckless move. We know Rock can one hit KO if not one hit kill guys much stronger than him. If Gon didn't happen to run out of AP in the first fight against Knuckles, we'd probably see Knuckles's spine snap in half and he'd just die. It's actually a miracle that all the recipients of Rock didn't just splatter into a bloody mess and they all miraculously survived what every powerful user agree is an absolutely insane amount of damage.

But in the world of HXH you can't possibly have a 'safe' move that allows you to kill someone much stronger than you in one hit. So Rock has to be so risky that you should die immediately on any failure, but of course Gon can't actually die, so it looks like Rock is pretty safe. It cannot be by definition. Otherwise you might as well forget everything you know about Hatsus, because that means it is perfectly normal to be able to one hit kill someone way stronger than you. At best, it's useful as a combo move as a follow up after you've some way to incapaciate the enemy for a short time, from either outside help (Killua) or your own move (Transformed Gon's air launcher).

---------- Post added at 12:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:17 AM ----------

that's the fact and i think everyone agrees . I watched the anime and they use the term but with an japanglish word "risk"... that's all.

---------- Post added at 11:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 PM ----------



there's no balance... gon's KO punch can do a lot o damage. even destroy a huge rock or mountain. gon's rock is a lot stronger.
if gon used a ko punch agaisnt knuckle it would still be a lot of damage without any risk. rocks has risk so the damage is a lot more.

again uvo was attacked while in zetsu and he didn't receive a deadly blow. KO doesn't let you defenseless as you can change easily your aura from one spot to other and even if you are hit by a normal attack it won't be deadly.

now the tricky part is if both users are in a similr men level and one hit the other with ko while the other was defending with ko other part of the body. that user would receive a fatal blow. the user won't just die.... just receive a fatal blow... loose an arm or something like that

Zetsu is incredible risk. Of course this is because the drawback of Zetsu went from crippling to fatal halfway through the series. If you go by Kurapika versus Ubogin, it certainly looked like Ubogin can at least try to fight back while in Zetsu against Kurapika before ultimately losing. Then, why on earth does Knuckles think putting Yupi in Zetsu, a guy who is said to be more than 10 times stronger than anyone he fought, can possibly do any good?

If you go by the Kurapika era, if Ubogin suddenly become 10 times more powerful baseline, it's nearly certain he'd break out of the chains with his sheer strength (Kurapika wasn't sure if it was strong enough to hold him in the first place let alone 10 times his power), and even if not, Ubogin at 10 times his current strength certainly can still shrug off whatever hits Kurapika do even in Zetsu.

If you go by the Ant era, putting someone in Zetsu means you can beat someone like Yupi who is more than 10 times stronger. In fact, even when Meryem returned with his godlike powers, Meleoron wanted to try to attack him, and Knuckles says the only way they can get Meryem to bankrupt is if Meleoron has a lung capacity comparable to Morel. From this, it is implied that Knuckles would indeed be able to defeat Meryem if he was in Zetsu, because if this isn't the case he should've said Meryem would easily be able to defeat them even in Zetsu. So from the Ant arc, it's basically you can defeat a living God if he's in Zetsu.

 

[KingOfNight]

that's the fact and i think everyone agrees . I watched the anime and they use the term but with an japanglish word "risk"... that's all.

Nice try, but I'm no fool. No body agrees with that. Phantron has his own reasons for thinking like that. That's about the "Everyone" you meant. Risk is not the same as Seiyaku (vow, condition). That's a no fact I'm afraid.

 

[Demonspeed]

First I must say that Rock and BBI are the same technique, I don't see any differences. Uvo just focused on one hit while Gon started to develop Rock, by using Ko( which is boosted when used by Enhancers) when he called Wing, his technique was not yet completed, he completed it while Killua was passing the exam with the final version of Paper and Scissors. For Uvo it's different he just wanted a punch as strong as a missile, just punching is enough for him. Rock has no restrictions, he could very well use all his techniques without shouting but he decided to do it maybe it motivates him unconsciously. The only thing I could knowledge as a restriction is the fact that his body is vulnerable while using the technique but it's the same for all Nen users using Ko.

 

[kenosecon]

demonspees this page says you are wrong

 

[Phantron]

Risk is not something you have to spell out in HXH. Franklin didn't make a vow "I will cut off my fingers to make my aura machine gun more powerful". He simply did it because he thought that was a cool thing to do. It's a risk (cutting off his fingers) and he become more powerful for it. Likewise the things Gon does like telegraphing his move and taking extra long time to prepare even when it's no longer necessary (his Rock still takes time to prepare when he's transformed, despite being able to do absolutely unfathomable damage with his regular punches) is a risk. The former one isn't much of a risk because shouting out your move is not that much of a give away when everyone can see he's focusing his aura, though it's still a small risk. For example, he can't sneak up someone behind undetected and use Rock because he has to say it first. Note that Ubogin was able to do this against Kurapika precisely because Big Bang does NOT require shouting the move's name first.

The charge time is incredible risk if you're looking at the Ant era where anybody can defeat a living God if the said God is in Zetsu (Knuckles versus Meryem), and he has to be in a Zetsu like state simply because there's nowhere else the aura can possibly come from if he didn't focus all his available aura into one spot. Combining these two risk factor the end result is that you get Gon able to kill a guy like Knuckles in a single hit if he connects a Rock despite being utterly outclassed by Knuckles in every possible category. We're also told he could've killed Morel in one hit if Killua didn't stop him. And that's fair because you're supposed to get a huge payoff for taking a huge amount of risk. Just because Gon obviously never actually have to worry about actually dying doesn't mean it's not a risky move. The only reason it's not risky for him is because he can't actually die as he's the main character of HXH. In the absence of the main character halo, he's likely to die the moment he prepares Rock against any experienced user who will definitely realize that there must be a huge risk for a guy to gather enough power for one-hit kill. I mean, Silva is presumably significnatly stronger than Kuroro in terms of base strength (Kuroro can't even guard Zeno's attack head on and Silva is presumably stronger since he's in his prime), and he needed a long time to charge up enough power to attempt to kill Kuroro in one hit. So a guy who is undoubtedly physically stronger still needs a pretty long time to safely charge up enough energy for a one hit kill against a physically weaker opponent, and yet Gon can literally charge up enough power to kill a guy much stronger than him in mere seconds for no risk?

 

[KingOfNight]

Risk is not something you have to spell out in HXH. Franklin didn't make a vow "I will cut off my fingers to make my aura machine gun more powerful". He simply did it because he thought that was a cool thing to do. It's a risk (cutting off his fingers) and he become more powerful for it.

STOP RIGHT THERE!

That's not a restriction, this is Nen and Individuality. As stated by Pokkle and Wing, the more you like your ability, the more effective it becomes. It's absolutely not a restriction. It's not even a risk to someone like him whose whole body is messed up. No, sir. That is not a restriction or a risk. It's him enjoying his ability more and thus, allowing it to be more effective.

 

[Phantron]

STOP RIGHT THERE!

That's not a restriction, this is Nen and Individuality. As stated by Pokkle and Wing, the more you like your ability, the more effective it becomes. It's absolutely not a restriction. It's not even a risk to someone like him whose whole body is messed up. No, sir. That is not a restriction or a risk. It's him enjoying his ability more and thus, allowing it to be more effective.

Franklin had normal hands at one point. He cut off his fingers because he thought it'd look cooler to shoot aura machine gun without fingers, but the price he paid (cutoff his fingers) made his ability more powerful because it's a restriction. Now, I'm sure if Franklin started out as a cripple without fingers then this wouldn't have worked, but the whole point is that he wasn't always a guy without fingers.

Whether you're compatible with something determines how well you can master the said technique, but all techniques have some kind of inherent risk score. Otherwise you're suggesting one needs to somehow trick the arbiter of abilities in HXH. That is, perhaps Franklin's ability wouldn't be as strong if he regret losing his fingers as opposed to giving them up willingly, except that is irrelevent in a world where you can trivially brainwash anybody with Manipulation techniques. So that'd mean with help of some friends you can attempt to try to cheat your way around the system by feeling a certain way about something. But then that'd mean all experience in HXH is irrelevent since you obviously have no idea what kind of mental state your opponent has. The power of a technique can only be related to the degree of difficulty. Franklin's aura machine gun requires you cutting off your fingers. It doesn't matter how you feel about your fingers. Once you made the choice to cut off your fingers the power improvement is fixed. Now maybe if you enjoy doing this kind of stuff, maybe you'll be able to aim better without fingers or whatever, but that's a matter of proficiency.

 

[Demonspeed]

@kenosecon: It proves nothing, Enhancers abilities are characterized by their simplicity and efficiency. BBI is boosted Ko, it's Uvo's Hatsu because his Ko is boosted. Rock is a part of Gon's Hatsu it's a boosted Ko too, Biscuit confirmed it's Ko after that he just added Paper and Scissors. It's true that Kurapika develloped an Anti-Ryodan technique but it would have been useless if he had not developed his basic skills Kurapika was the strongest MC by far in this arc. He became fast enough to dodge Uvo's moves etc. I don't think Uvo is one of the fastest but it was more than enough. And actually conditions are more efficient with Kurapika because they are used mostly by Manipulators and Conjurers, he has still many chains he can use freely. What would have been Gon/Killua's condition? I can punch/electrify only the PT members? Even with that he would have been destroyed and their abilities would have been more than useless. Kurapika has the versatility, his Holy Chain permitted him to win and Emperor Time boosted his power/durability he was very fast too. Only Chain Jail is almost useless, his others chains are still pretty dangerous and his Hatsu is one of the strongest of the manga.

@Phantron: To cut his fingers is not a risk it's just his style( like people who likes piercings etc). It just shows that his ability really suits his personality, and it unconsciously boosted his power. When Gon shout "First comes Rock" maybe it boosts his attack too but it has not been mentioned and I don't think so, shouting Kamehameha doesn't boost Goku's power.

Every move is risky in a way, even if he doesn't Hatsu, it's risky to stay immobile in a fight, it won't really make his move stronger but Gon overcame that weakness via Paper and Scissors, if he learns to manage his aura volume better Jajanken would be almost flawless. Killua can use electricity but he needs to recharge after, so wasting electricity is risky. He didn't choose a limitation it's just the limit of his technique.

 

[KingOfNight]

Franklin had normal hands at one point. He cut off his fingers because he thought it'd look cooler to shoot aura machine gun without fingers, but the price he paid (cutoff his fingers) made his ability more powerful because it's a restriction. Now, I'm sure if Franklin started out as a cripple without fingers then this wouldn't have worked, but the whole point is that he wasn't always a guy without fingers.

Like I and Demonspeed just said, this isn't a risk. Every part of his body seems to be cut off\ sewed. He thought it was cool and cut it off for the sake of it being cool, and without understanding it, his ability became more powerful. This is one of the earliest things explained about Nen. It's not a restriction. A restriction is an oath you make to yourself.

 

[baboysai]

Yes we all seem to have forgotten, until Demonspeed mentioned, that enhancers are pretty simple. Whatever their physical attribute, will simply be enhanced. Therefore, physical strength and speed is crucial for them, and that's basically almost all they need. They don't even need risks, or from the string of posts lately- what we might mean to be conditions/limitations/oaths/restrictions. They just need brute force, and their strengths and speeds are just enhanced to give them the leverage they need against opponents.

So if we group all enhancers as such, what sets each of them apart? Here comes what KingofNight said- individuality. Whatever rocks your boat. Your style. Uvo has this insane shout (which has no restrictions either, from what I recall)- and maybe Gon can do this too if he really tried- since they're both of the same nen type- but it's just not Gon's style... it wouldn't really fit him. Rock and BBI are very similar, but from what I recall BBI doesn't take any charging time? In an instant he was able to react (when the underground Injuu pulled his arm) and used BBI. This is probably because of his years of training that's ahead of Gon that he can transition it so fast. Uvo could probably do it like Gon too, like, position his body (which is a dead giveaway that he's about to do something), and call out the technique- but it's really stupid (as Killua mentioned) and definitely not something Uvo would like to do, but he really could, if he so wished.

I remember that the reason Gon just called out the technique because he felt that people would be deceived when he started saying the jajanken (either he comes up with Rock, Paper, or Scissors). That's how he thought up the technique anyway- and it was his playfulness that he came up with that concept- his earnest and trusting nature that he thought people would actually fall for it. And that's his individuality inherent in this nen technique.

So again, to redirect your attention to present Gon vs. Uvo- I would say... Uvo.

 

[KingOfNight]

Yes we all seem to have forgotten, until Demonspeed mentioned, that enhancers are pretty simple. Whatever their physical attribute, will simply be enhanced. Therefore, physical strength and speed is crucial for them, and that's basically almost all they need. They don't even need risks, or from the string of posts lately- what we might mean to be conditions/limitations/oaths/restrictions. They just need brute force, and their strengths and speeds are just enhanced to give them the leverage they need against opponents.

I decided to add links to what you said so that nobody end up doubting it (hopefully nobody).This exactly what Wing told Gon. Wing is also an Enhancer and he was the one who told Gon that as Enhancers, they don't need special techniques. They only need to practice Ren and every move they make will be deadly. Uvogin is the pinnacle of the Enhancement group, his normal punch is likely as strong as Gon's rock.

Uvo has this insane shout (which has no restrictions either, from what I recall)- and maybe Gon can do this too if he really tried- since they're both of the same nen type- but it's just not Gon's style... it wouldn't really fit him.

Uvo was always an evil more powerful version of Gon. This has been shown several times in the series. Just like how Uvogin shouts to deal with opponents he can't punch, Gon does the same. However, just like how Rock is inferior to BBI, so is Gon's shout inferior to Uvogin's. That's how simple it is to compare these two. Uvogin also needs time to charge up his attacks, although he does it a lot faster. He simply raises his hand and focus all of his aura in his fist, the exact same process as Gon's Rock, but he does it faster.

 

[mousiehamster]

How can the charge up time of Rock not be a restriction? Gon designed the move after Janken. He always charges up. The power of Rock exceeds his Ken (and therefore, his Ko) which is the theoretical maximum amount of Nen an Enhancer using a non-hatsu can dish out. You can say that it's Gon's psychological preference or whatever, but either way the charge up time is an intrinsic property of the move - there's no psychology perk without the charge up. Also note how quickly he charged up Ko to defend against Razor's ball. He sure didn't do the whole jajanken thing. Just turned on Ko and blocked.

Uvo's BBI is Ko with a strong psychology factor behind it. Furthermore, he can use In to hide the aura.

 

[Demonspeed]

It's not a restriction it's a weakness, the more he charges the stronger it is but it always needs several seconds and he can use overcome with Paper or Scissors, it also depends of the quantity of aura he uses. Use Jajanken and Ko are different. With Jajanken he can use 2 others techniques, with Ko he just needs to attack or defend, with Jajanken he must be ready to do many things at once. Even when he was sparring with Killua he shown his Ryu was very good, now he is even faster. Anybody could rush and give a punch with 100% aura. Theoretically it's the same technique as BBI but it's not. BecauseUvo just wanted a destructive punch, for him physical strength>all. In can be used by anyone too.

Uvo developed his Nen solely on Enhancement( it's not a waste of potential like Kastro but an abuse of potential). Biscuit didn't recommend it, if Gon had just wanted a destructive punch and nothing else he would have completed his Hatsu during the training session before entering GI. But it was not, because Gon and Uvo's philosophy are not the same. Even if another Enhancer tries to copy Uvo's Hatsu it won't be as efficient because BBI is a personification of Uvo's philosophy.

 

[mousiehamster]

It is a restriction because he artificially restricts himself to do the same motion over and over and over again each and every time he uses the move. Ko is already the hypothetical maximum output - it is your max aura output focused into one area. Yet jajanken allows Gon to gather more aura than is normally possible for himself. This must mean that jajanken is a hatsu with restrictions OR janken is so meaningful to him he gets an extra power up. But really the two are largely the same. Furthermore, both Paper and Scissors, not just Rock, follow the same charge up. Knuckle remarked that Paper is just the same as Rock in terms of aura gathered but the output was lesser due to Paper being an emission technique. Now if the aura gathered is the same, the charge up must be identical too, unless Gon absurdly requires less charge time for Paper despite expending the same amount of aura.

There will never be a point where Gon ends up doing rock paper and scissors instantaneously. He probably can but the power will ultimately be lesser. Even in Gon's transformed state, he performed the entire motion so it's clearly not a matter of nen efficiency - it's a property of jajanken itself.

 

[Phantron]

When Gon is transformed he can wound Pitou significantly in a single kick that comes out instantly. This kick likely does in excess of 10000 AP if you assume all the Royal Guards are roughly the same calibur so there's no way they'd be able to do that kind of damage to each other so easily, and we know Yupi can do 10000 AP worth of damage very easily.

10000 AP is well beyond anything any human character have displayed, and transformed Gon can focus that amount nearly instantly. Yet he still has to go thorugh the same motion for Rock. How can this be an issue of experience when he can already focus an amount of aura greater than any human character has ever used instantly in that state?

The charge time was initially not really a restriction because Gon takes longer time than most people to focus his aura anyway. But since he's more than capable of improving, the restriction becomes increasingly strict as his skill improves to the point where he can quickly focus his aura. Indeed we see that he can improve to the point where he can focus 10000+ AP instantly and yet he still cannot get around this restriction, and if he's not so overwhelmingly powerful by then where any of his hits incapaciates his opponent, this would actually be a very serious drawback.

Likewise the 'call out your move' is a bigger restriction than one might think. It makes tactics like sneaking up and using In impossible, because he has to say "First is rock" and I'm pretty sure he can't just sort of whisper it. The same tactic Ubogin used (create a distraction and sneak up with Big Bang) cannot possibly work with Gon, and HXH emphasizes a lot on sneaking up and stealth. Now, you can say Gon doesn't like strike his opponent in stealth anyway, but that's a personality thing. That is, there's obviously no inherent rule of the universe that says Gon can't sneak up someone and smack them.

The whole 'pick abilities that match your personality' is really only because if you pick stuff that matches your personality, the restriction might be lessened or even negated. That is, if you always call out your moves anyway, then 'must call out moves' is not really a restriction within your fighting style. However, it is still a valid restriction because there is obviously no magical force that compels anybody to shout out their moves. The whole personality is more like how to turn your weaknesses into an advantage. Netero, who is clearly the top of human in terms of fighting skill, is said to have aura that is completely undetectable and nearly no preferences of any kind to a preferred move (only Meryem was able to see his preferences). So we can see that the best guys at fighting should be completely unpredictable, and thus adding any restriction is going to weaken yourself. But the point is that everyone have their own habits anyway. Let's say you're a guy who really likes to alternate punching with right and left hand. You could make that a restriction and get some level of power up (how much is unclear). If you're going to do something that's clearly a bad idea (always punch in a predictable pattern), you might as well try to get something a little extra out of it by making is restriction. Ideally you shouldn't ever start out with such a bad idea, but if your personality has such a flaw then at least the restrictions help you salvage something from it.

I don't think people appreciate how crippling Gon's 'charge time' restriction is. If Knuckles really wanted to kill him, he'd be dead every single time he tried to charge up a Rock. This is why Gon can focus an unfathomable amount of aura into his Rock, because the restriction he places on it might as well be suicidal. It's not until his transformed version is he finally able to overcome this limitation, but this is because when he's transformed he's strong that his normal hits can deliver enough damage to incapaciate even a Royal Guard level opponent so then the charge time doesn't matter. But at that point it really becomes a 'beat up the weak' technique, in the sense that he can already deliver Royal Guard+ level of damage at will so of course it's really not that risky to charge up when you're signfiicantly stronger than your opponent baseline.

 

[Demonspeed]

It is a restriction because he artificially restricts himself to do the same motion over and over and over again each and every time he uses the move. Ko is already the hypothetical maximum output - it is your max aura output focused into one area. Yet jajanken allows Gon to gather more aura than is normally possible for himself. This must mean that jajanken is a hatsu with restrictions OR janken is so meaningful to him he gets an extra power up. But really the two are largely the same. Furthermore, both Paper and Scissors, not just Rock, follow the same charge up. Knuckle remarked that Paper is just the same as Rock in terms of aura gathered but the output was lesser due to Paper being an emission technique. Now if the aura gathered is the same, the charge up must be identical too, unless Gon absurdly requires less charge time for Paper despite expending the same amount of aura.


There will never be a point where Gon ends up doing rock paper and scissors instantaneously. He probably can but the power will ultimately be lesser. Even in Gon's transformed state, he performed the entire motion so it's clearly not a matter of nen efficiency - it's a property of jajanken itself.

It's a special technique so it's normal to do the same move, Killua will always do the same moves while using his Izutsushi but it's not a restriction. We don't have many details about the maximum output but I guess everybody could do this, Gon should not be a special case, Knuckle explained that to him as if it was natural, he didn't talk as if Gon was a special case. It was the same during his fight against Razor. He had no more aura so he collapsed.