Discussion Gray Fullbuster Thread

[Axiomus]

More or less.

Every character fluctuates based on power of feelings. Gray can be anywhere from struggling against Ur's historia to beating the daylights out of Invel, based on his emotions. Without considering stuff like lost iced shell, Gray's probably around the same level as Gajeel normally. Probably slightly stronger when both are at max POF.

 

[Ramen]

More or less.

Every character fluctuates based on power of feelings. Gray can be anywhere from struggling against Ur's historia to beating the daylights out of Invel, based on his emotions. Without considering stuff like lost iced shell, Gray's probably around the same level as Gajeel normally. Probably slightly stronger when both are at max POF.

So without PoF, where would you rank him? Like at Max Power

 

[Axiomus]

So without PoF, where would you rank him?

Ballpark around Gajeel's level.

 

[Ramen]

Around or slightly above Erza level at peak, while being ahead of Gajeel.

I could see being above Gajeel at peak but not Erza

 

[Ramen]

Even if you disagree, we can atleast agree that Gray would give Erza tough high diff fight.

Oh yea no doubt, he would give anyone a tough fight other than Gildarts and maybe Laxus but yea I can agree

 

[Ramen]

I know he will lose against Laxus, but I wanna see how much Gray can provide difficulty to Laxus.

All depends on how he does against Laxus speed.

 

[Ramen]

Gray is best suited to go long range against Laxus. Rely on his freezing hax, clones, intelligence.
Not many characters will fare well against Laxus's speed and close combat h2h range.

Gray doesn't have freezing hax.

His insta freezing isn't that strong from feats.

Laxus is a DS and they have enhanced senses so I don't see clones being a problem

Intelligence yea but Laxus is smart as well.

 

[Ramen]

His freezing has been nerfed af
Doesn't have the same level of freezing potency he showed after he obtained DES magic.
I wish he had the same level of freezing potency Silver has.
It seems like every fighter worth their salt can now easily get out of this ice. Really annoying tbh.

Depends tbh. He may need time to sense them.

Gray is capable of outsmarting Laxus.

That's tru but it's what happened.

Gray can outsmart anyone.

 

[Axiomus]

His freezing has been nerfed af
Doesn't have the same level of freezing potency he showed after he obtained DES magic.
I wish he had the same level of freezing potency Silver has.
It seems like every fighter worth their salt can now easily get out of this ice. Really annoying tbh.

Depends tbh. He may need time to sense them.

Gray is capable of outsmarting Laxus.

It hasn't been nerfed. It's just that it's been powercrept by stronger opponents. When Gray froze Mard Geer during the Tartaros arc , Mard Geer broke out of it. That kind of sets the bar for what level you have to be to break out of Gray's ice. The answer to why so many people can break out of it now is simply that they're stronger than Mard.

 

[sharkai]

without pof
gray should be equal to gajeel, or base natsu. laxus can mid diff him
DES should be equal or above shadow gajeel or LFD natsu

Pof gray equal in power to pof laxus. not including speed or durablity

comparing laxus killing wahl to gray breaking invel armor.
I normally rank overpowering strongest spell above taking that mage out (as a power feat). Meaning it is more impressive to me some one overpower jura mt Fuji, compared to taking him out (a lot of variables here, like speed, durability, power).
I see laxus taking out wahl, but I don't see laxus overpowering his etherion.
and since springgans are some what around each other level, wahl etherion will break invel armor, but most likely will not harm invel (armor cancel out etherion)
there also is a possibility of wahl died because of machina weakness of lightening (red lightening he didn't recognize so he cant use)

It hasn't been nerfed. It's just that it's been powercrept by stronger opponents. When Gray froze Mard Geer during the Tartaros arc , Mard Geer broke out of it. That kind of sets the bar for what level you have to be to break out of Gray's ice. The answer to why so many people can break out of it now is simply that they're stronger than Mard.

that doesn't make sense, gray is stronger now, his freezing abilities should be stronger too.

 

[Axiomus]

that doesn't make sense, gray is stronger now, his freezing abilities should be stronger too.

It is. His opponents are just strong enough to break his ice anyways.

comparing laxus killing wahl to gray breaking invel armor.
I normally rank overpowering strongest spell above taking that mage out (as a power feat). Meaning it is more impressive to me some one overpower jura mt Fuji, compared to taking him out (a lot of variables here, like speed, durability, power).
I see laxus taking out wahl, but I don't see laxus overpowering his etherion.
and since springgans are some what around each other level, wahl etherion will break invel armor, but most likely will not harm invel (armor cancel out etherion)
there also is a possibility of wahl died because of machina weakness of lightening (red lightening he didn't recognize so he cant use)

Invel's armor doesn't have the feats to suggest that it would allow Invel to tank etherion. It was shattered by Gray's punches, and Gray's punches probably aren't striking with the force of Etherion. Laxus' attack managed to just defeat Wall, but actually kill him.

 

[sharkai]

@Axiomus
fun fact, wahl etherion is also featless
I see it like this
a mage can convert huge or all portion of his mp into a spell.
wahl and invel mp are the same
so they fuel etherion and the ice armor with same amount of mp.
logically they should be equal

both of their mps are above laxus mp. gray only with pof got to that level. laxus never got to that level (he never overpowered wahl strongest spell)

yes that is why I am putting pof gray equal to pof laxus, powerwise. laxus did kill wahl so he get that benefit

 

[Axiomus]

@Axiomus
fun fact, wahl etherion is also featless
I see it like this
a mage can convert huge or all portion of his mp into a spell.
wahl and invel mp are the same
so they fuel etherion and the ice armor with same amount of mp.
logically they should be equal

both of their mps are above laxus mp. gray only with pof got to that level. laxus never got to that level (he never overpowered wahl strongest spell)

yes that is why I am putting pof gray equal to pof laxus, powerwise. laxus did kill wahl so he get that benefit

Wall's etherion is featfless, but it should be stronger than his other attacks at least.

Just because the Spriggans have similar levels of magic power, it doesn't mean that all their spells are equally powerful. Dimaria tried to take out Chelia with her all out attack, and Wendy's enchantment blocked it. Does that mean Wendy could defend against Wall's etherion? Marin's territory can undo Jacob's transport. Does that mean Marin overpowered a spell as powerful as etherion? What about Erza dispelling Neinhart's historia? What about Neinhart resisting Brandish's magic? Gray himself goes on to become a lot more enraged and even taps into his demonized form when he fights Natsu later on. Every single one of his punches would have been at least as strong as the ones he used against Invel. Were they all stronger than etherion? Erza then stops both Natsu and Gray's all out attacks. Does that mean Erza stopped the equivalent of 2 attacks that could overpower Etherion?

 

[sharkai]

Wall's etherion is featfless, but it should be stronger than his other attacks at least.

Just because the Spriggans have similar levels of magic power, doesn't mean that all their spells are equally powerful. Dimaria tried to take out Chelia with her all out attack, and Wendy's enchantment blocked it. Does that mean Wendy defended against an etherion level attack? Does destroying Neinhart's historia prove that the mages at Hargeon overpowered etherion? Marin's territory can undo Jacob's transport. Does that mean Marin overpowered a spell as powerful as etherion? Gray himself goes on to become a lot more enraged when he fought Natsu later on, and even taps into his demonized form. Erza then stops both Natsu and Gray's all out attacks. Does that mean Erza stopped the equivalent of 2 attacks that could overpower Etherion?

not everthing is straight forward
a mage can put all his mp into one spell, in this case etherion or ice armor
these are simple one dimensional things, to attack or to defend

wasn't dimeria in time field, wasn't she maintaining it, so she is doing two things at the same time. also since she is a time mage, that what she specialize in.
an attack mage, who uses simple brute force or defence mage who simply blocks brute force, should be equal in their outputs

marin Jacob are hax. converting their powers to simple numbers would be difficult, same for nienhart

not all enraged punches are equal

I have no reason to believe wahl has more destructive output than other similar springgans. invel armor (which is his strongest spell) should be able to block whal strongest spell. same for serena (his strongest spell should also stalemate wahl etherion).

Other springgans are difficult to classify, because their powers aren't straight forward. brandish, ajeel, Jacob, neinhart, dimeria, lacarde, bradman have little different magic, they don't specialize in simple magic like straight forward attack or straight forward defense

 

[Axiomus]

not everthing is straight forward
a mage can put all his mp into one spell, in this case etherion or ice armor
these are simple one dimensional things, to attack or to defend

wasn't dimeria in time field, wasn't she maintaining it, so she is doing two things at the same time. also since she is a time mage, that what she specialize in.
an attack mage, who uses simple brute force or defence mage who simply blocks brute force, should be equal in their outputs

marin Jacob are hax. converting their powers to simple numbers would be difficult, same for nienhart

not all enraged punches are equal

I have no reason to believe wahl has more destructive output than other similar springgans. invel armor (which is his strongest spell) should be able to block whal strongest spell. same for serena (his strongest spell should also stalemate wahl etherion).

Other springgans are difficult to classify, because their powers aren't straight forward. brandish, ajeel, Jacob, neinhart, dimeria, lacarde, bradman have little different magic, they don't specialize in simple magic like straight forward attack or straight forward defense

Where was it said that Wall or Invel put all their magic power into etherion or the ice armour?

It doesn't really matter if Dimaria was doing 2 things at once. There's no particular reason to assume the maintaining Age Seal was particularly taxing for her. Even if Jacob's magic is a hax, it still carries with it a level of magic power. Neinhart's power isn't really hax. He is a molding mage. The historia he summons can have haxed abilities, but Neinhart's magic itself is really no different from Lyon's ice-make creating creatures. They're just more realistic creations.

Invel is not an "attack mage" either. There's no reason to believe that he hits particularly hard. Invel's shtick seems to be just to freeze people, and if that doesn't initially work mind control them with ice slave. Even the armour's main selling point seems to be just to freeze people. We weren't really shown it hitting particularly hard.

Anyways, Wall has more destructive feats than most of the other Spriggans with his regular attacks alone, without even considering etherion. His punches are easily the best out of any of the Spriggans, and his ranged attacks have the largest AOE. Only Ajeel's attacks really matches the sheer scale of Wall's AOE. If you really believe that all the Spriggan's strongest spells can match Wall's etherion, then how can you be certain that Laxus won't overpower Etherion? Laxus overpowered Gajeel's sands of death, which was Ajeel's strongest attack. It was August's opinion that Laxus nuke was going to kill Ajeel. Who is to say that if Laxus hadn't been dying of organ failure that he couldn't have just overpowered Etherion with a nuke?

I agree that not all enraged punches are equal. The enraged punches that Gray used against Natsu would have been stronger than the one he Invel's armour. Gray was more emotional and trying to kill, and also he further powered up with his demonized form.

 

[sharkai]

Where was it said that Wall or Invel put all their magic power into etherion or the ice armour?

It doesn't really matter if Dimaria was doing 2 things at once. There's no particular reason to assume the maintaining Age Seal was particularly taxing for her.

Even if Jacob's magic is a hax, it still carries with it a level of magic power. Gemini-Marin was able to counter Transport.

Neinhart's power isn't really hax. He is a molding mage. The historia he summons can have haxed abilities, but Neinhart's magic itself is really no different from Lyon's ice-make creating creatures. They're just more realistic creations.

Invel is not an "attack mage" either. There's no reason to believe that he hits particularly hard. Invel's shtick seems to be just to freeze people, and if that doesn't initially work mind control them with ice slave. Even the armour's main selling point seems to be just to freeze people. We weren't really shown it hitting particularly hard.

Anyways, Wall has more destructive feats than most of the other Spriggans with his regular attacks alone, without even considering etherion. The only Spriggan that comes close to him in terms of sheer AoE is Ajeel, and Ajeel's potency isn't that high. I mean if you believe that all the Spriggan's strongest spells can match Wall's etherion, then how can you be certain that Laxus won't overpower etherion? Laxus overpowered Gajeel's sands of death, which was Ajeel's strongest attack. It was August's opinion that Laxus nuke was going to kill Ajeel. Who is to say that if Laxus hadn't been dying of organ failure that he couldn't have just overpowered Etherion with a nuke?

I agree that not all enraged punches are equal. The enraged punches that Gray used against Natsu would have been stronger than the one he used to break out of Invel's armour. Gray was more emotional and trying to kill, and also he further powered up in his demonized form.

AOE means nothing here
they have equal amount of fuel, if wahl pumps more in his etherion, invel will pump more in his armor. wahl is no way stronger than other springgans

how hax work, we don't know. and I am pretty sure even mishma doesn't know. hax are over powered through plot device most of the time, good example weak heart.

invel isn't attack or defence mage that is correct, but wahl isn't either. wahl attack werent super powerful either, just because they had more aoe means nothing.

this is good a example, sand of death. it was over powered by laxus. but it nowhere near ajeel strongest move. sand world was, even walh etherion will do nothing to it, it will go right through it. these moves wont really interact
who knows. cancer laxus should have been below jura but alas that is mishma for you

gray was trying to overpower something. this is difference than exchanging punches. when you come across a hurdle, you try to exert more force, more mp. this would happen against invel armor. that is why I classify it as strongest power feat from gray in that arc

let me give a hypothetical scenario and ask you a question
nienhart makes a historia wahl. nienhart uses all his mp here, so that historia wahl fires an etherion till a not a molecule is left of historia wahl (historia wahl uses all his mp and then uses his own body to fuel that etherion)
real wahl also fires etherion putting all his mp in it

at the end nienhart and wahl are mp less. which etherion would be stronger?

 

[Axiomus]

AOE means nothing here
they have equal amount of fuel, if wahl pumps more in his etherion, invel will pump more in his armor. wahl is no way stronger than other springgans

how hax work, we don't know. and I am pretty sure even mishma doesn't know. hax are over powered through plot device most of the time, good example weak heart.

invel isn't attack or defence mage that is correct, but wahl isn't either. wahl attack werent super powerful either, just because they had more aoe means nothing.

this is good a example, sand of death. it was over powered by laxus. but it nowhere near ajeel strongest move. sand world was, even walh etherion will do nothing to it, it will go right through it.
who knows. cancer laxus should have been below jura but alas that is mishma for you

gray was trying to overpower something. this is difference than exchanging punches. when you come across a hurdle, you try to exert more force, more mp. this would happen against invel armor. that is why I classify it as strongest power feat from gray in that arc

let me give a hypothetical scenario and ask you a question
nienhart makes a historia wahl. nienhart uses all his mp here, so that historia wahl fires an etherion till a not a molecule is left of historia wahl (historia wahl uses all his mp and then uses his own body to fuel that etherion)
real wahl also fires etherion putting all his mp in it

at the end nienhart and wahl are mp less. which etherion would be stronger?

Wall has better hand to hand attacks than any of the Spriggans except August and Irene. Larcade is debatable. Wall's long range attacks are also the best out of the Spriggans. Wall is better at punching and blasting things, and Invel is better at freezing things.

Sand world isn't an actual attack. Or at least, it does very little immediate damage. If Laxus was fighting Ajeel instead of Erza, assuming we ignore the motion sickness, Laxus would be able to kill Ajeel by nuking the general location of the ship. Wouldn't have mattered if he couldn't see. The sheer scale of his nuke would engulf everything.

The real Wall's etherion would be stronger. Neinhart's historia doesn't have living magic in them and that, according to Gildarts, makes them weaker than the real thing. But that's not actually the point here. A historia of Wall blasting etherion would still hit harder than a historia of Invel punching with his ice armor.

At the end of the day, Gray shattering Invel's armour should not be comparable to overpowering Wall's etherion. Gray would go on to become even more enraged when fighting Natsu and power-up even more with his demonized form. Each of the punches he threw against Natsu would have been at least as strong as the punch that first shattered Invel's armour. Erza could block both Natsu and Gray's enraged attacks without any defensive armors, and Laxus is stronger than Erza.

 

[Livinbreathineatin]

Mid tier Spriggan. Stronger than Gajeel but weaker than Erza.

 

[sharkai]

Wall has better hand to hand attacks than any of the Spriggans except August and Irene. Larcade is debatable. Wall's long range attacks are also the best out of the Spriggans. Wall is better at punching and blasting things, and Invel is better at freezing things.

Sand world isn't an actual attack. Or at least, it does very little immediate damage. If Laxus was fighting Ajeel instead of Erza, assuming we ignore the motion sickness, Laxus would be able to kill Ajeel by nuking the general location of the ship. Wouldn't have mattered if he couldn't see. The sheer scale of his nuke would engulf everything.

The real Wall's etherion would be stronger. Neinhart's historia doesn't have living magic in them and that, according to Gildarts, makes them weaker than the real thing. But that's not actually the point here. A historia of Wall blasting etherion would still hit harder than a historia of Invel punching with his ice armor.

At the end of the day, Gray shattering Invel's armour should not be comparable to overpowering Wall's etherion. Gray would go on to become even more enraged when fighting Natsu and power-up even more with his demonized form. Each of the punches he threw against Natsu would have been at least as strong as the punch that first shattered Invel's armour. Erza could block both Natsu and Gray's enraged attacks without any defensive armors, and Laxus is stronger than Erza.

Laxus > erza this is never mentioned or shown in the manga
Wahl is stronger cqc. I thnink lacarde is better, dimeria is more durable. Best cqc goes to jacob. Ajeel most likely faster.

I think laxus can mid diff ajeel. Sand world ajeel strongest move is most likely useless agaisnt laxus because of the dragon nose or something

Forgot about living magic

Wahl main magic weakness. He can creat weapons they arent his main. His explosive moves shouldn't be any more impressive than say serena or dimeria explosive moves.

I dont think invel armor punch is equal to wahl ethrion. I think defensive abilities of the armor should be about equal to wahl etherion, based on them being equal.
When i see a mage overpowering another moves, this is for me the best power feat.
Gildarts overpowering bluenote black hole is a good example. Natsu overpowering twin dragon roar is another. Then gray breaking invel armor, or erza destroying duex sema

Meanwhile i cant rank red lightening, wahl has no real durability feat, he was immune to all previous attacks. He wasnt even Guarding against laxus attack. He might have been super weak to it too.

Thus for me
Pof gray has better or equal power feat compared to pof laxus

 

[Axiomus]

Laxus > erza this is never mentioned or shown in the manga
Wahl is stronger cqc. I thnink lacarde is better, dimeria is more durable. Best cqc goes to jacob. Ajeel most likely faster.

I think laxus can mid diff ajeel. Sand world ajeel strongest move is most likely useless agaisnt laxus because of the dragon nose or something

Forgot about living magic

Wahl main magic weakness. He can creat weapons they arent his main. His explosive moves shouldn't be any more impressive than say serena or dimeria explosive moves.

I dont think invel armor punch is equal to wahl ethrion. I think defensive abilities of the armor should be about equal to wahl etherion, based on them being equal.
When i see a mage overpowering another moves, this is for me the best power feat.
Gildarts overpowering bluenote black hole is a good example. Natsu overpowering twin dragon roar is another. Then gray breaking invel armor, or erza destroying duex sema

Meanwhile i cant rank red lightening, wahl has no real durability feat, he was immune to all previous attacks. He wasnt even Guarding against laxus attack. He might have been super weak to it too.

Thus for me
Pof gray has better or equal power feat compared to pof laxus

Laxus had higher stats than Erza in every category according to the GMG cards. Mirajane said that she wasn't sure if Erza and her combined could take on Jura, and then Laxus beat him solo. Laxus would have Ajeel according to August, which is why August stepped in to shield Ajeel. Ajeel gave Erza a high difficulty fight. Laxus just low-diffed Kyria, whom was arguably on Erza's level. Currently Erza is wishing that she has help fighting Laxus. Without tapping into POF, Laxus is much stronger than Erza. An argument can be made that Erza with POF is stronger than Laxus, but Erza is stronger than Gray even without her POF so it's a moot point.

Wall never used weakness against Laxus. He just created a bunch of machinery to punch and blast Laxus with, and he was good at doing that. An argument can be made for God Serena's attacks being on the same level as Wall's, but only Wall's basic attacks. God Serena has nothing on the level of Etherion. Dimaria's attacks aren't really on Wall's level at all.

Just because Invel's armour is his best spell doesn't mean that the armour would allow Invel to tank etherion. The armor was never stated to be super durable. That wasn't the selling point of the armour. Invel just said that the ice was really cold and could freeze everything, not that the ice was really hard to break. There's no reason to believe that the ice armour offers a greater degree of durability than Wall's body to begin with. I'm not willing to hype the armour up as some super-tanky armour that can take blows from etherion. If red lightning acted as a weakness for Wall and Wall only tanked Laxus' attacks because of his safeguards, then Wall's durability might not be all that impressive. But it's not like Invel tanked any amazing attacks either. Their durability should be more or less on the same level.