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For all ongoing Haki discussion, please post here.
 
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Arbalest

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ok so i'm opening the haki subject with basic principles and personal observations
"Haki" is a power that lies dormant in all the world's creatures... "Presence", "fighting spirit" and "intimidation"... It is not different from the things that humans can naturally sense such as these... 'The act of not doubting'. That is strength! " Silvers Rayleigh"
there are 3 types of haki that were presented so far which are :
-Kenbunshoku Haki, also known as Mantra and it stranslate as observation haki : it allows the user to sense the presence of others, even if they are concealed from view or too far to see naturally and it's not limited to living creatures early on in the manga zoro in his fight vs daz bones a.k.a Mr.One showed signed of observation haki and as a result he made the strike called shishi sonson ,luffy too showed signs of it in his fight vs galdino a.k.a Mr.Three when he could figure out which one was the real one in the midst of candle clones.
the strongest observation haki showed in the anime goes to enel when he could know what's going on in an entire country, he could tell what they were saying and doing and if someone died, gol D.roger seem to surpass all with his understanding the story written in stone just by hearing it's inner voice and even writing letters in a language he didn't understand and couldn't read but there is not enough details to show this.
-Busoshoku Haki also known as armament haki it allows the user to create a force similar to an invisible armor around themselves. Similar to Tekkai that's used by CP9 members, this Haki allows the user to defend against attacks that would otherwise cause them harm. Significant physical force can still overcome this defense.
the basic form is to wrap up a portion of the body with supposetly invisible armor however we've seem several users turning their hand in pitch black when they use it, the most notable advantage of this haki is that's it's the most efficient power to counter the logia-type devil fruit users which seemed like invincible duo to this kind of power again just like observation haki it's not limited to that users like garp and Rayleigh and Sentomaru didn't turn their body parts into black when used and boa hancock broke smoker's jetta when she stricked and the curious part is that the jetta turned into stone before it broke which would imply the black part is the very first step and there is more to it another point worth mentioning when diamond jozu stricked aokiji with hi shoulder, his shoulder was made of diamond and since aokiji took damage from it ,it negates that it was a DF power it's more likely to be armament haki and at last sanji's diable jambe is theorised to be armament type however until we see him in action vs a logia DF user it's still a speculation as Rayleigh said most users tend to develop one kind as his primary power it seem that zorr's haki is observation and sanji is armament.
-Haoshoku Haki also known as conqueror or king's haki is a rare form of Haki that cannot be attained through training. Only one in a million people have this ability,This type of Haki grants the user the ability to dominate the wills of others. The most common usage in the series so far is knocking those with weak wills unconscious Whilst inexperienced users are restricted to merely overpowering the will of one individual or blindly knocking out weak-willed people around them,It was first demonstrated by Shanks, when he used it to scare off a Sea King. Later on, during a meeting with Whitebeard, he used it to knock out most of the crew, which the few still standing attributed to his superior Haki there are various theories that goes hand in hand with this power one of them is that some users were combining both observation and king's haki to pull some amazing feats such as shirahoshi who seemed to use the observation to hear the sea kings and the king's haki to command them however she only did it unconsciously and she turned out to be an ancient weapon call poseidon and concerning dragon who could control weather is theorized to be the ancient weapon uranus check this link for more details http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php/2997668-Monkey-D.-Dragon
there is a theory that state :
the ancient weapons with gods names were considered as such just because of their conqueror's haki.
 
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Hannibal Psyche

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Re: One Piece Chapter 791 Discussion / 792 Predictions

Are you sure it was a Haki skirmish in the ring when Sabo broke Burgess armour? Because I'm not so sure. We didn't see his armour darken with the activation of armourment Haki like we did with Sabo. The darkness of the armour that we saw at the clash could have been shadowing against the energy released at the clash. I am saying this because Burgess knows that Sabo is a logia user now and when this final clash started, Burgess threw a Galleon lariat at Sabo, it went right through him.

It would make sense for a Yonkou's officer, fairly seasoned in the new world and proclaimed DF hunter to have Haki. I can't understand why he didn't use it, unless he is all muscle and very little brain and he just plum forgot to activate his Haki. Or Maybe his attack didn't go through Sabo and Sabo just dodged it by slitting himself in half.

I could be wrong, we will have to wait and see. I hope I am wrong because that would make Burgess a half useless DF hunter.

I noticed a few people were wrong about Doffys strings. They said that Doffy didn't coat his strings in Haki because it would be impossible to have the whole birdcage coated in haki but it was. And for those who disagree, re read, re watch his fight with Smoker at the end of the Punk Hazard arc. Doffy cut smoker and almost killed Smoker with his strings. The way I see it, the string string fruit isn't designed to cut, it's skill is in taking control of things and moving them like a puppeteer. But coat it in Haki or maybe a strong haki, then you can use it as an offensive weapon.

---------- Post added at 07:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:47 AM ----------



I was wondering that myself. They never did show them leave dressrosa. Maybe they were hiding in the underground harbour. It is possible that it would be safe down there from the birdcage or maybe they were hiding in the centre of the birdcage in the plateau.
Sabo breaking Burgess' armour was definitely a clash of armament haki, you'll notice the black sparks appear as which is visible in all armament haki clashes.

Also, there are 2 sub-classes of armament haki. One is invisible and the other is black (hardened armament).
Just because fists aren't black doesn't mean haki isn't being used, otherwise the scenes we see Logias being hit would be plotholes.

Burgess probably used haki (the invisible armament), or Sabo wouldn't have evaded it.

Doflamingo's strings should be able to cut without haki, they're thin and strong and using haki against Smoker is a given.

Birdcage couldn't be coated in haki, it's too large. Pica didn't use haki when he was assimilated with stone, but when Zoro cornered him out, he said "You can't cut me now that I'm using haki" which implies he didn't use it as a stone most likely because of the sheer amount of stone he was controlling.

Based on Luffy's gear 4 and the reception it got from Law and Doflamingo, there's such a thing as using too much haki. No one but Luffy has used the hardened armament continuously for prolonged periods, so it is unlikely that the Birdcage would be coated in armament seeing how quickly he got exhausted.

One thing that's certain is the Birdcage doesn't get weaker as Doflamingo gets tired or weakened, it's there as long as he's conscious just like everyone remains a toy as long as Sugar is conscious. In a sense, it's just a plot device.

Also, it seems that Doflamingo has different kinds of strings for different uses. The Birdcage is hard, sharp and has very little to no flexibility. His normal strings seem to be flexible and sharp and the strings he used for his internal injuries were just literally threads that weren't sharp. Imagine he'd have sustained injuries if he used the Birdcage string for his internal injury, should be like stabbing himself literally.
 

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Re: One Piece Chapter 791 Discussion / 792 Predictions

Sabo breaking Burgess' armour was definitely a clash of armament haki, you'll notice the black sparks appear as which is visible in all armament haki clashes.

Also, there are 2 sub-classes of armament haki. One is invisible and the other is black (hardened armament).
Just because fists aren't black doesn't mean haki isn't being used, otherwise the scenes we see Logias being hit would be plotholes.
[...]
I'm not sure I can agree with you on this one.
The way I see it - in the pic you showed - Luffy isn't using any kind of Haki because you can see Caesar's form tanking the blow, thanks to his fruit.

If Luffy had used any sort of Haki, being it visible or not, I think the hit would've landed on Caesar's actual body/flesh. Like, a real hit... which that definitely isn't, in my opinion.

Also, regarding the Birdcage; I'm pretty sure it could be all coated in Haki, but isn't because:
- Doflamingo needs the Haki for himself;
- using that absurd amount of Haki on a cage that is meant to remain perfectly still just wouldn't make any sense, plus the cage is strong enough as it is.

But I think Doflamingo could easily create a giganting Spider-Web or Birdcage and coat with Haki if the situation required it (like holding off something monstruous). He's shown already he could darken his threads with Haki, with which he stabbed Luffy, so yeah.

Actually, Doflamingo should've gone WWW on their butts and created a gigantic spider made out of black threads. That would've been an awakening :derp.
 

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Re: One Piece Chapter 791 Discussion / 792 Predictions

I'm not sure I can agree with you on this one.
The way I see it - in the pic you showed - Luffy isn't using any kind of Haki because you can see Caesar's form tanking the blow, thanks to his fruit.

If Luffy had used any sort of Haki, being it visible or not, I think the hit would've landed on Caesar's actual body/flesh. Like, a real hit... which that definitely isn't, in my opinion.

Also, regarding the Birdcage; I'm pretty sure it could be all coated in Haki, but isn't because:
- Doflamingo needs the Haki for himself;
- using that absurd amount of Haki on a cage that is meant to remain perfectly still just wouldn't make any sense, plus the cage is strong enough as it is.

But I think Doflamingo could easily create a giganting Spider-Web or Birdcage and coat with Haki if the situation required it (like holding off something monstruous). He's shown already he could darken his threads with Haki, with which he stabbed Luffy, so yeah.

Actually, Doflamingo should've gone WWW on their butts and created a gigantic spider made out of black threads. That would've been an awakening :derp.
There are many instances where Haki has been used, but been invisible. If you read the pages following Caerser vs. Luffy, initially all his punches are without the black haki as you'll also see in the anime.

Even when Luffy first destroys a Pacifista after 2Y time skip, he uses Haki but it's not the visible; Sentomaru says "Reinforcement Haki" as confirmation.

How else did Pekoms punch Caribou when his hand wasn't shown to be black? Not all haki is hard, except you use the 2nd type called "hardening".

Just to show the following scene after the scene you claim to not be haki
No blackening.

Read up chapter 671 where Luffy grabs Caeser for first time, he's wearing gloves but he's using the invisible haki. Even anime shows him hit Caeser as this panels show without black haki which is called "hardening".

If Luffy can only last 20 minutes using hardening all over his body, there's no way Joker could cover the Birdcage with Haki that's surrounding the whole country, lol.
 

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Re: One Piece Chapter 791 Discussion / 792 Predictions

Are you sure it was a Haki skirmish in the ring when Sabo broke Burgess armour? Because I'm not so sure. We didn't see his armour darken with the activation of armourment Haki like we did with Sabo. The darkness of the armour that we saw at the clash could have been shadowing against the energy released at the clash. I am saying this because Burgess knows that Sabo is a logia user now and when this final clash started, Burgess threw a Galleon lariat at Sabo, it went right through him.

It would make sense for a Yonkou's officer, fairly seasoned in the new world and proclaimed DF hunter to have Haki. I can't understand why he didn't use it, unless he is all muscle and very little brain and he just plum forgot to activate his Haki. Or Maybe his attack didn't go through Sabo and Sabo just dodged it by slitting himself in half.

I could be wrong, we will have to wait and see. I hope I am wrong because that would make Burgess a half useless DF hunter.
No, that's not correct. This is before they clash:


As you can see from there, both Sabo and Burgess are prepped to attack but there's no blacking involved indicating they haven't used armament haki yet.

This is the next page where they clash:



In the top right panel, Sabo's arm and Burgess' elbow are very clearly coated with haki as the black color is evident. The black sparks are also visible and this happens when two people using armament haki clash.

There's another example here :


That was when Burgess used his attack on the fighting fish and you can see that his armor isn't coated in black which means he didn't use haki there.
 

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Re: One Piece Chapter 791 Discussion / 792 Predictions

I'm not sure I can agree with you on this one.
The way I see it - in the pic you showed - Luffy isn't using any kind of Haki because you can see Caesar's form tanking the blow, thanks to his fruit.

If Luffy had used any sort of Haki, being it visible or not, I think the hit would've landed on Caesar's actual body/flesh. Like, a real hit... which that definitely isn't, in my opinion.

Also, regarding the Birdcage; I'm pretty sure it could be all coated in Haki, but isn't because:
- Doflamingo needs the Haki for himself;
- using that absurd amount of Haki on a cage that is meant to remain perfectly still just wouldn't make any sense, plus the cage is strong enough as it is.

But I think Doflamingo could easily create a giganting Spider-Web or Birdcage and coat with Haki if the situation required it (like holding off something monstruous). He's shown already he could darken his threads with Haki, with which he stabbed Luffy, so yeah.

Actually, Doflamingo should've gone WWW on their butts and created a gigantic spider made out of black threads. That would've been an awakening :derp.
In that specific frame the issue is that vergo managed to dodge the hit. There is no reason for luffy to try to hit ceasar without haki.
http://www.mangareader.net/one-piece/681

That is the chapter where it happens.

As for the haki thing, it depends on a number of things. We know haki can be imbued into stuff. The issue is how long it can last after that. Assuming it is possible to imbue haki into stuff and for it to last then it should be possible for doflamingo to imbue the cage with haki and have it remain like that without further additional effort. Then again the "if" of being able to imbue haki for long periods of time. I think we do have strong evidence that there was no haki covering the bird cage though. Assuming the cages' resistance was due to haki simply doesn't make sense as the key to breaking it would have been similar strength. Zoro at least is insanely strong. But then again its not inconceivable that Doflamingo's haki would not be able to hold him. However in this extreme scenario it is inconceivable that Isho, a god dammed admiral, would be unable to cut it.

---------- Post added at 12:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:55 AM ----------

As far as the burgues vs sabo thing, odds are sabo simply used his intangibility to literally dodge. At this point assuming random hits won't have haki simply is unreasonable. Any explanation that involves haki is likely to be the case over one that does not involve it.

Haki is not only effective against logia, it significantly enhances your offensive power.
http://www.mangareader.net/one-piece/787/5
So in this case it makes sense sabo simply got his actual body out of the way taking advantage of his superior physical capacities including speed and new intangibility.

Then again, we know for a fact there is a way for logias to at least in some cases avoid damage to their physical bodies from haki (we saw a couple of cases during WB's fight with aokiji and near the end of the war when marco and vista confronted akainu). It might have had something to do with that as well considering how much stronger than burgues sabo is.
 

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Blackening of the Body parts is juss a concentrated & high form of Armanet Haki. When Armanet Haki is concentrated to where your body part blackens gives you a muh higher defense and offense...This will always be represented with their skin darkening & class's will presumably have black lighting follow

There' 2 basic Haki's
1.6th sense
2.Hardening Defense/Offense..Nerf'd physical DF attritubutes
***3. Chosen Few have Conquer Haki

Note Aside from Ace WB division Captain 1-4 knew Haki. *Vista & Marco hurting Akianu, & Jozu hit Crocodile. Luffy also grabbed smoker *he was wearing gloves* & Luffy has touched or hurt Ceaser w/o blackening his fist...

The 2nd Type of Haki automatically allows you to Hurt DF users,strengthen your body and can be used on weapons such as swords
**Note Zoro knows Haki & can cut Monet, think about it his swords don't darken he's juss able to cut them...

Where at the point in the story where Haki Strentgh is the new consensus of Strentgh or power. Once already introduced If a Logia is hit or DF user is hurt it's easily presumed the person used Haki,,, other than that When Armanet Haki is bein used it will always be illustrated & represented with their body parts blackening

Conqueors Haki will always knock out weak willed/spirit'd ppl
& observation will always be represented with somebody dodging something or nigh clairvoyance
 

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^note: Zoro's swords do darken even his arms do the same, his swords turn completely dark
 

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^note: Zoro's swords do darken even his arms do the same, his swords turn completely dark
Not all the time one turns their limbs or object black to show they're using haki:

Luffy vs. Caeser (same scene)

Tashigi vs. Monet (same scene)
Pekoms vs. Caribou (same scene)

The anime and manga share this consistency, sometimes it's visible and other times it's not but that's because there's a difference. The Black one is "Hardened" while the invisible one probably doesn't deplete Haki reservoir like the black does and is less powerful.
 

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Not all the time one turns their limbs or object black to show they're using haki:

Luffy vs. Caeser (same scene)

Tashigi vs. Monet (same scene)
Pekoms vs. Caribou (same scene)

The anime and manga share this consistency, sometimes it's visible and other times it's not but that's because there's a difference. The Black one is "Hardened" while the invisible one probably doesn't deplete Haki reservoir like the black does and is less powerful.
im correcting you on your statement about Zoro, don't know why you quotes and explained things I didn't even comment on
 

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im correcting you on your statement about Zoro, don't know why you quotes and explained things I didn't even comment on
I think you mean correcting him and it looked like you were saying otherwise rather than making an addition/correction to his break-down since Zoro has used both invisible and hardened haki.
 

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I think you mean correcting him and it looked like you were saying otherwise rather than making an addition/correction to his break-down since Zoro has used both invisible and hardened haki.
when did you see Zoro use haki without his sword turning dark?
 

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when did you see Zoro use haki without his sword turning dark?
I would argue that would be 99% of the time since the timeskip started. Haki is too generic a skill for them to not use it, well, generically. To be fair though, the one time we know for a fact that he did not use haki on his blade is when he did not want to cut monet.
 

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when did you see Zoro use haki without his sword turning dark?
Zoro's Sword we didn't see it turn black, I'm assuming it was the invisible haki he used.

Whether his sword turns black is besides the point, the fact is there are 2 sub categories: invisible and black. There are instances where people hit Logias without blackening, one can only assume it's haki except these characters are daft trying to hit a Logia without haki or there's inconsistency concerning haki in the manga.
 

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Zoro's Sword we didn't see it turn black, I'm assuming it was the invisible haki he used.

Whether his sword turns black is besides the point, the fact is there are 2 sub categories: invisible and black. There are instances where people hit Logias without blackening, one can only assume it's haki except these characters are daft trying to hit a Logia without haki or there's inconsistency concerning haki in the manga.
nope you cant even give an example because there is none

while the rest of you think there are 2 haki forms some of us see it as Oda drawing it black o we know when its being used or not, and some of the time he forget to draw it black but its like once or twice every other time they turn dark on the part they are using COA. So this whole thing of 2 haki's sounds ridiculous to some of us

---------- Post added at 03:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:27 PM ----------

I would argue that would be 99% of the time since the timeskip started. Haki is too generic a skill for them to not use it, well, generically. To be fair though, the one time we know for a fact that he did not use haki on his blade is when he did not want to cut monet.
we know haki can be depleted so its safe to say they are not using it all the time but are using it when they need to
 

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we know haki can be depleted so its safe to say they are not using it all the time but are using it when they need to
True, it can be depleted however the one instance when that has happened was when luffy used his gear 4 and we were specifically told he was overusing it. With that in mind odds are that people in regular combat won't really worry about running out. And assuming they are fighting someone against whom they can afford to not use haki then that enemy would be relatively worthless from the start which makes the point sort of moot. Take zoro, against an enemy with some strength he simply cannot afford to not use haki. Even if he has excellent swords haki serves to protect those. And haki in itself allows you to use actually worthless items with the same effectiveness as mihawk's sword (though obviously the power of the haki behind it counts). Even the kuja girls were firing haki clad arrows at luffy back when kuma split them up. I would argue that at this point in the manga worrying about running out of haki is more or less like worrying about running out of stamina. By now everyone is a superhuman athlete, assuming they do run out of stamina its extremely likely there was no way around it.
 

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nope you cant even give an example because there is none

while the rest of you think there are 2 haki forms some of us see it as Oda drawing it black o we know when its being used or not, and some of the time he forget to draw it black but its like once or twice every other time they turn dark on the part they are using COA. So this whole thing of 2 haki's sounds ridiculous to some of us

---------- Post added at 03:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:27 PM ----------



we know haki can be depleted so its safe to say they are not using it all the time but are using it when they need to
Oda has explicitly shown Logias being hit without hardened haki.

  • Tashigi hitting Monet, look at the anime too and you see it's consistent with the manga.
  • Pekoms hitting caribou, no black haki; again, it's consistent with the manga.
  • Luffy has hit Caribou and Caeser without black haki (hardened).
  • When Luffy defeated the pacifista after the 2 year time skip, sentoumaru's exclaimed "haki" and yet Luffy's hands weren't black.
Assuming you review these scenarios an d still sceptical, you'll have to ask for example why did Monet say tashigi had haki when her sword was wasn't black and then later on we see Smoker with black haki against Vergo, inconsistency?

Except you can develop a new reasoning why Sentomaru would exclaim haki when Luffy's hands didn't turn black, it'd appear that there are indeed 2 subcategories of haki.

 
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Oda has explicitly shown Logias being hit without hardened haki.

  • Tashigi hitting Monet, look at the anime too and you see it's consistent with the manga.
  • Pekoms hitting caribou, no black haki; again, it's consistent with the manga.
  • Luffy has hit Caribou and Caeser without black haki (hardened).
  • When Luffy defeated the pacifista after the 2 year time skip, sentoumaru's exclaimed "haki" and yet Luffy's hands weren't black.
Assuming you review these scenarios an d still sceptical, you'll have to ask for example why did Monet say tashigi had haki when her sword was wasn't black and then later on we see Smoker with black haki against Vergo, inconsistency?

Except you can develop a new reasoning why Sentomaru would exclaim haki when Luffy's hands didn't turn black, it'd appear that there are indeed 2 subcategories of haki.

-the Tashigi one was just a snap of a panel like when Zoro cut Monet, Oda didn't draw the panel leading to the cuts but after the cut so it can be said when the panel was shown they had already de-activated their hake
-Oda has been know to make mistakes nothing to get serious about, he could have forgotten to colour it black
-Oda makes mistakes and if you look at it carefully, they don't turn dark when its obvious
-Sentomaru might have meant COO so your point doesn't really prove anything

I already explained about Monet and Tashigi, also there are other translation that went like this

Sentomaru : he was using haki

implying he used haki to dodge the lasers not haki to attack the pacifista
 
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So any explanation as how Rayleigh blocked the elephant on RI without even coming in contact with it and how the Admirals blocked WB's attack at the execution stand with their arms outstretched? I think it's pretty clear that there's invisible Haki and also the hardening.
 
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