Discussion Haki Thread

[Brandish μ]

For all ongoing Haki discussion, please post here.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

This scene strikes very odd on closer inspection...

Spoiler: Zoro first time showing Black Armament Haki

First of all,this page is only of relevanc if one believes there are 2 forms of Armament haki (Black-Haki and the Invisible-Haki which is the basic and most commonly used).

We saw how Sai unlocked Black haki via character development and how Bellamy unlocked the Black Armament through traumatic experience or character development if one can call it that.

Why is Zoro so happy? Why is he recalling Mihawk explicitly saying he must learn to clad his entire blade in Black haki? To me, it seems like Zoro just unlocked the Black Armament haki, or else, it's weird that he's so happy about it. We don't see Luffy snickering about using his Black Armament haki, so I think Zoro just unlocked it in his fight with Pica. I'd assume he's happy because he finally just achieved the goal given to him by Mihawk.

Also, if we read what Mihawk said, he told Zoro he wasn't allowed to drink Alcohol until he could make his blades Black.

Just like we see Sanji is deprived from Women and exaggerates his appreciation for them, we can see that Zoro has greater enthusiasm for Alcohol too. Premise being, Zoro didn't drink Alcohol at Mihawk's Island because he never unlocked the Black blade.

We even see Zoro drinking Sake with his bare hands, pretty much looks like he is craving Alcohol, he's never been this eager as far as recollection goes.

Spoiler

That same Chapter we see Zoro drinking, even when the Pirates come to attack them and whilst talks of forming allies is going on, he's still drinking copious amounts rather quickly.

Spoiler

By the time the Commanders had decided to follow Luffy and Fujitora destroyed their enemies... Zoro had finishd the entire Barrel of Alcohol to Luffy's surprise.

Spoiler

Pretty much implies that Zoro was severely deprived off Alcohol which also implies he never unlocked the Black Armament in those 2 years till now.

Not saying he didn't drink until he had Armament haki, just not on Mihawk's island. I doubt Zoro would comply with such a rule and more so, since it does nothing to tarnish his ideology as a Swordsman.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

This scene strikes very odd on closer inspection...

Spoiler: Zoro first time showing Black Armament Haki

First of all,this page is only of relevanc if one believes there are 2 forms of Armament haki (Black-Haki and the Invisible-Haki which is the basic and most commonly used).

We saw how Sai unlocked Black haki via character development and how Bellamy unlocked the Black Armament through traumatic experience or character development if one can call it that.

Why is Zoro so happy? Why is he recalling Mihawk explicitly saying he must learn to clad his entire blade in Black haki? To me, it seems like Zoro just unlocked the Black Armament haki, or else, it's weird that he's so happy about it. We don't see Luffy snickering about using his Black Armament haki, so I think Zoro just unlocked it in his fight with Pica. I'd assume he's happy because he finally just achieved the goal given to him by Mihawk.

...He is happy because his swords didn't break, thanks to the "Black Haki". Actually it's just Haki, back in Marineford it wasn't shown having the distinct black pattern. You're pretty much the only one who thinks there are "black" and "invisible" Armament Haki. Oda back then was simply hinting the possibility of having Haki, other than the known Conqueror Haki. He even hinted at CoO back in Skypiea where it was called Mantra.
And I don't want to argue with you about that, seems to me you're pretty convinced there are two types. What I will say though is since he remembered at that moment Mihawk's words that means they were especially relevant to this situation. So he's snickering like you say because he managed to do what Mihawk told him, to protect his blades from breaking thanks to Armament Haki. For a swordsman it is a feat, because it is humiliating to have your swords break, again according to Mihawk. That's why imo Zoro is so happy, because thanks to "black" Armament Haki his swords won't ever break again, in theory.
In practice if he faces someone with a higher level of Haki than him then his swords have a chance of breaking.
And since his sword isn't black anymore that means he's done using his haki, and this is more apparent in the anime.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

..He is happy because his swords didn't break, thanks to the "Black Haki". Actually it's just Haki, back in Marineford it wasn't shown having the distinct black pattern. You're pretty much the only one who thinks there are "black" and "invisible" Armament Haki.

I can assure you that I'm not. There are many examples of invisible haki being used since Marineford, but can live that for another discussion.

However, couldn't Mihawk simply have proven to Zoro his sword wouldn't break if he achieved it while at Mihawk's Castle? So, for Zoro to be excited his sword against Pica is sort of uneccessary if Mihawk already proved to to him by hitting Zoro's sword is odd.

Proof from Mihawk should surely override any excitement from using a Black Sword and making sure it didn't break against the likes of Pica.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

I can assure you that I'm not. There are many examples of invisible haki being used since Marineford, but can live that for another discussion.

However, couldn't Mihawk simply have proven to Zoro his sword wouldn't break if he achieved it while at Mihawk's Castle? So, for Zoro to be excited his sword against Pica is sort of uneccessary if Mihawk already proved to to him by hitting Zoro's sword is odd.

Proof from Mihawk should surely override any excitement from using a Black Sword and making sure it didn't break against the likes of Pica.

Err no but I guess there's no helping it.
I think it's safe to say that this is his first real battle in a while, the stakes are higher than his training with Mihawk. Also if you read that page Zoro says "No damage to the blade". So he was clearly worried about his sword breaking, and was relieved it didn't.This is why he's seen getting all excited, while he's remembering Mihawk's words. That's all there is to it.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Err no but I guess there's no helping it.
I think it's safe to say that this is his first real battle in a while, the stakes are higher than his training with Mihawk. Also if you read that page Zoro says "No damage to the blade". So he was clearly worried about his sword breaking, and was relieved it didn't.This is why he's seen getting all excited, while he's remembering Mihawk's words. That's all there is to it.

Luffy's fist didn't turn Black, yet Sentomaru says he's "Equiped Haki" hinting at Armament Haki, other translations say Armament Haki.

Spoiler

Then why Hadn't Zoro used it until now? Last time Zoro used haki was against Monet, and it wasn't Black in either Manga or Anime. And why is Monet so sure she'd get cut despite Zoro's blade not being black.

Spoiler

Why would Mihawk tell Zoro something that couldn't be confirmed in the 2 years he spent fighting except he didn't achieve a Black blade until now?

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

Luffy's fist didn't turn Black, yet Sentomaru says he's "Equiped Haki" hinting at Armament Haki, other translations say Armament Haki.

Spoiler

Then why Hadn't Zoro used it until now? Last time Zoro used haki was against Monet, and it wasn't Black in either Manga or Anime. And why is Monet so sure she'd get cut despite Zoro's blade not being black.

Spoiler

Why would Mihawk tell Zoro something that couldn't be confirmed in the 2 years he spent fighting except he didn't achieve a Black blade until now?

That was right after the time skip,iirc we saw Haki used as black in FI for the first time. The whole point of having Haki colored in black is to make it more clear for the reader when Haki is used. As seen during the war it was only hinted, and not showcased as it is now. Even as far as Sabaody we didn't see Haki pictured like that.

Now as far as Zoro vs Monet goes, as explained by Tashigi Zoro wasn't using Haki when he cut her. And this has nothing to do with CoC, Zoro simply was using his killing intent which can be likened to that of a beast, and we already know he can use the aura of a demon (Asura).

And one basic thing that you should keep in mind, is that Haki isn't always used. While fighting Pica Zoro didn't use Haki for most of his fight till the end. When he did use Haki his swords became black. So black=haki used. Not black= no Haki used.

And I think you answered your own question.Logically Mihawk would only tell him that if it was part of his training, fairly early too, which means that Zoro would have to achieve it in those two years. Also if we go back to Sabaody, it is strongly hinted that Zoro used Haki to cut the pacifista. While again it's not showed as black, the fact remains that he was able to cut it after the time skip, while he could only scratch Kuma back on Thriller Bark. So if anything that is the confirmation that Zoro did achieve Armament Haki back then.

It's fairly simple, you're just complicating things unnecessarily.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

That was right after the time skip,iirc we saw Haki used as black in FI for the first time. The whole point of having Haki colored in black is to make it more clear for the reader when Haki is used. As seen during the war it was only hinted, and not showcased as it is now. Even as far as Sabaody we didn't see Haki pictured like that.

Countless Scenarios where Haki is used without any Black shading pre-timeskip:

1. Bobby Funk explicitly states he used Armament haki, yet his sword isn't Black.
   Spoiler

   
2. Haki is invisible with pekoms against Caribou.
   Spoiler

   
3. Luffy against Caesar, invisible haki.
   Spoiler

   
4. Tashigi cut Monet in Fishman Island without Black Armament.
   Spoiler

   
5. Luffy claims to have punched Trebol with Haki, yet his hands are not black.
   Spoiler

   
6. Luffy kicked Trebol here with INvisible Armament Haki and we know this because Luffy always assumed Trebol to be a Logia.
   Spoiler

   
7. Why didn't Sabo's pole cut in 2 whilst in a clash against a sword wielded by Fujitora if not for Haki?
   Spoiler

   
8. Burgess attempts to stab Sabo who he knows is a Logia, there's no way it wasn't imbued with Haki if he hoped to be successful.
   Spoiler

   

There's so much evidence that there are 2 applications of Haki. If not, then all this scenes should be regarded as mistakes, and no such issues have been brought to light. There are indeed 2 applications of haki which is why Black Haki is such a big deal.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

Countless Scenarios where Haki is used without any Black shading pre-timeskip:

1. Bobby Funk explicitly states he used Armament haki, yet his sword isn't Black.
   Spoiler

   
2. Haki is invisible with pekoms against Caribou.
   Spoiler

   
3. Luffy against Caesar, invisible haki.
   Spoiler

   
4. Tashigi cut Monet in Fishman Island without Black Armament.
   Spoiler

   
5. Luffy claims to have punched Trebol with Haki, yet his hands are not black.
6. Spoiler

   
7. Luffy kicked Trebol here with INvisible Armament Haki and we know this because Luffy always assumed Trebol to be a Logia.
   Spoiler

   
8. Why didn't Sabo's pole cut in 2 whilst in a clash against a sword wielded by Fujitora if not for Haki?
   Spoiler

   
9. Burgess attempts to stab Sabo who he knows is a Logia, there's no way it wasn't imbued with Haki if he hoped to be successful.
   Spoiler

   

There's so much evidence that there are 2 applications of Haki. If not, then all this scenes should be regarded as mistakes, and no such issues have been brought to light. There are indeed 2 applications of haki which is why Black Haki is such a big deal.

If they were they would be fixed in the tankobon which often happens. But these aren't from the tankobon as far as I know.
I'll just quote the wikia on this:

Naturally this "invisible armor" can also be used as a weapon to strike others with. It can be used to augment the user's own physical attacks, projected ahead of the user as pure brute force, or imbued into weapons to increase their effectiveness. Any attack enhanced by Busoshoku Haki hits immensely harder than it would normally without it. The Kuja's Haki-imbued arrows, for example, are capable of penetrating solid stone.[2]


Pica's body after being hardened.

This type of Haki also has the ability to bypass the powers of a Devil Fruit user whose body has been altered by their fruit in any way, touching the "substantial body" beneath whatever protection the fruit provides, such as the case of body-altering Devil Fruits such as Logia or Paramecia users. However, unlikeSeastone, it does not actually nullify a user's Devil Fruit powers, so it still allows them to defend themselves, and continue fighting normally.[3] By the same effect, this Haki can also be used as a higher level of offensive power, more so than just bypassing a foe's Devil Fruit powers.

A heavy concentration (or coating) of this Haki can be used to harden parts of one's body, turning the area black, thus making the user denser and more formidable, and giving their attacks greater power. As demonstrated with Vergo, and later Pica, it is possible for one to coat their entire body in Busoshoku Haki. Although Luffy, the first in the mainstream storyline to demonstrate this effect, named the technique as Busoshoku: Koka (武装色 硬化 Busō-shoku: Kōka?, literally meaning "Color of Armaments: Hardening"), Donquixote Doflamingo and Roronoa Zoro are the only people to use this name for the technique.[4][5] Also, an interesting phenomenon occurs when two people using hardened Busoshoku Haki at approximately the same strength clashes: black lightning seems to spreads out from the point of impact.[6][7][8]

Busoshoku Haki works independently of the user's Devil Fruit if they have one, as shown when Luffy uses it to enhance his Gear Third attack underwater.[9] This type of Haki may not be equipped on attacks that are not from one's body except for weapons, or anything generated from one's own body (like Kizaru's laser beams,Marco's flames or any other energy/non-solid attacks based on Devil Fruits). So, those who attack with parts of their body can combine their Haki and Devil Fruit powers.

So normally Haki forms an invisible armor, but when it becomes concentrated it shows as black.It is commonly referred to as "Busoshoku: Kouka". That doesn't really mean there are two types of Armament Haki, normally it is invisible, but when it becomes more condenced the area becomes black.
If there were indeed two types that was never shown before the time skip.Not once was Haki shown as black before the time skip . So even though the official explanation is that black haki is just more condenced haki, in reality it just to really show when Haki is used. Also in the case of normal Haki, Oda usually refers to it by having someone say that he was using Haki.
And if we take the case of Boo, since he claims he already knows Haki, then I doubt that Sai just awakened to it. Perhaps he only managed to make it more condenced for the first time.
Of course the wikia is fan made, but this explanation makes sense.

Now taking this into account, it's pretty clear that Zoro already knew Haki beforehand since normally it is invisible.And I gave a valid explanation as to why Zoro was happy(his swords didn't break). Can we say case closed?

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

That doesn't really mean there are two types of Armament Haki, normally it is invisible, but when it becomes more condenced the area becomes black.

Pre-Timeskip, we couldn't even distinguish between the nuances of Armament Haki because Luffy hadn't been taught. We're only able to see things mainly from the Protagonist, Luffy's perspective and understanding. If Luffy didn't know anything about Haki, then we'd never have been able to distinguish any depth to Haki until he learned it which he has now and we do.

And if we take the case of Boo, since he claims he already knows Haki, then I doubt that Sai just awakened to it. Perhaps he only managed to make it more condenced for the first time.

He doesn't say he knows Haki, he says "used" haki which is why he progresses to question what is his body made of.

All those panels and more prove that Haki is invisible at a basic level and becomes hardened once one progresses to a great height in Armament Haki.

We were told that Haki can get depleted, Rayleigh never said that, but it's heavily implied since we see Luffy "wasting" haki and saying he wouldn't be able to use Haki.

This situation isn't any different, can you really claim all these as mistakes when there's consisteny in use of this invisible application even against Logias and claims of using it explicitly even without it being shaded black?

If they were they would be fixed in the tankobon which often happens. But these aren't from the tankobon as far as I know.
I'll just quote the wikia on this:

I've got Viz Translations and they show these scenes exactly as they are; Mangastream and Powermanga are pretty reliable. Even the Anime is consisent with this, so I don't see why it's a mistake or error.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

Pre-Timeskip, we couldn't even distinguish between the nuances of Armament Haki because Luffy hadn't been taught. We're only able to see things mainly from the Protagonist, Luffy's perspective and understanding. If Luffy didn't know anything about
Haki, then we'd never have been able to distinguish any depth to Haki until he learned it which he has now and we do.

That's exactly what I said. Haki was invisible pre time skip, and normally is invisible even post time skip. That's what Haki normally looks like, but when it becomes more condensed it becomes black.

He doesn't say he knows Haki, he says "used" haki which is why he progresses to question what is his body made of.

Not sure what you're trying to get at. Since now it's clear that Haki is invisible then Boo was using it, when he tried to cut down Bobby Funk. But it didn't work, so what this means is that perhaps Bobby Funk also has Haki, and it's stronger than Boo's. As seen with Pica vs Zoro the one with the strongest Haki wins. Bobby Funk isn't made of Kairoseki as far as we know.

All those panels and more prove that Haki is invisible at a basic level and becomes hardened once one progresses to a great height in Armament Haki.

I'm not sure if that's how it should be explained. Normally Haki is invisible but when someone becomes advanced enough in using it, he's able to concentrate it in an area of his body, or his whole body, which results in it becoming black.But even though we saw characters like Luffy or Zoro being able to use Kouka, they don't always end up using it that way. So either way most people will use the invisible haki, because that's the common one, and only a few events really require the use of Kouka.

We were told that Haki can get depleted, Rayleigh never said that, but it's heavily implied since we see Luffy "wasting" haki and saying he wouldn't be able to use Haki.


This situation isn't any different, can you really claim all these as mistakes when there's consisteny in use of this invisible application even against Logias and claims of using it explicitly even without it being shaded black?


I've got Viz Translations and they show these scenes exactly as they are; Mangastream and Powermanga are pretty reliable. Even the Anime is consisent with this, so I don't see why it's a mistake or error.

So in conclusion Armament Haki has two different uses. A normal use when it is invisible and a more concentrated one as it appears black. But it's hard to tell for sure when Haki is used, since it's supposed to be invisible. I doubt that all these occurances require the use of Haki. And the tankobon is different from Viz chapters, it is revised, which isn't the case for the Viz version who is supposed to come out the same day as the chapter in Japan. The tankobon comes out at a much later time that's when Oda and his assistants are able to fix mistakes, like Kyros leg for example.

Honestly I stopped giving a shit about stuff like that, after reading the manga for a while it doesn't matter anymore to know when Haki is used and when it's not. I will say this though, that coating all of your body in Haki is prolly not the wisest thing. Not only is it possible for someone who has a higher level of Haki to cut through the Haki armor, but it also may deplete the Haki more rapidly, as seen with Luffy who even then didn't coat all of his body in Haki. I think this is ultimately more important than knowing when Haki appears as black, and when it doesn't.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

hat's exactly what I said. Haki was invisible pre time skip, and normally is invisible even post time skip. That's what Haki normally looks like, but when it becomes more condensed it becomes black.

I wouldn't say it was Invisible pre-timeskip even though it was in a sense, we just weren't knowledged about it.

If they used Black Armament, we wouldn't know unlike now that Haki has been explained.

Not sure what you're trying to get at. Since now it's clear that Haki is invisible then Boo was using it, when he tried to cut down Bobby Funk. But it didn't work, so what this means is that perhaps Bobby Funk also has Haki,

Not really, Boo's body is just naturally powerful.

It's like when Luffy defeated the Gorgon sisters, when he was in normal form, his attacks got deflected.

Spoiler

With Gear 2nd where his strength is enhanced, his attacks breaks through Armament haki even though he doesn't possesss it yet.

Spoiler

So, Bobby, doesn't necessarily have the ability to use haki, he just naturally possesses a powerful body.

Also, if one goes back to the Tashigi + Smoker versus Law, Smoker told Tashigi her haki was too weak to defend against Law's ability, so we can be certain that Haki is broken into 2 sub-classes:

1. Invisible
2. and Black/Hardening

I do find it important in understanding just how strong opponents are and waht not, but I'll leave it at that.

 

[kkck]

In this case you are wrong lady, the manga has even named hardened haki distinctly. Oda hasn't changed how haki was portrayed pre and post timeskip. The black "hardened" haki is simply an advanced version of regular invisible haki.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

In this case you are wrong lady, the manga has even named hardened haki distinctly. Oda hasn't changed how haki was portrayed pre and post timeskip. The black "hardened" haki is simply an advanced version of regular invisible haki.

I think I posted the bit about hardened Haki, that it's condensed Haki. To me it doesn't really prove that they're distinct from each other, it's just the next step.
Pre skip it was always invisible, it was never portrayed as black. You're free to check it.

 

[kkck]

Can you give me the source please? I think I posted the bit about hardened Haki, that it's condensed Haki. To me it doesn't really prove that they're distinct from each other, it's just the next step.
Pre skip it was always invisible, it was never portrayed as black. You're free to check it.

I could link the manga but at this point I am not sure it would do any good. The issue here would be a misinterpretation of the manga links I could provide. Someone even pointed out the time luffy used haki against the pacifista or when zoro cut monet as examples of invisible haki but you simply said at that point oda was still hiding this for some reason. More than distinct I would argue they are simply subcategories of the same thing though. In some chapters it has even been named (koka I believe is the word used for it).

What I do think is worth noting is that the implication of hardened haki being simply the norm or what all haki looks like after oda revealed it is that it simply makes absolute no sense within the context of the manga. The implication here would be that haki is only used when the user turns black. Which would imply haki is used disturbingly infrequently. Even though its a generic skill which even weak warriors can use. We are at a stage in the manga where we simply have to assume that fighters of a certain caliber are using haki at all times, haki is simply that ordinary. And yet the implication here would be that haki is only used when the user turns black.

Also worth noting, the hancock sisters. When it comes to hardened haki (the black one) the implication is that to bypass it you need stronger haki. However luffy bested the sisters through sheer brute force. Now, I would assume there is a point at which pure brute strength can bypass hardened haki but the difference in strength would be astounding to put it mildly considering the implication of hardened haki is that it can turn literal garbage into something which could stand up to mihawk's own sword. Heck, sabo and vergo use a pipe and bamboo respectively, that is literally garbage.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

I could link the manga but at this point I am not sure it would do any good. The issue here would be a misinterpretation of the manga links I could provide. Someone even pointed out the time luffy used haki against the pacifista or when zoro cut monet as examples of invisible haki but you simply said at that point oda was still hiding this for some reason. More than distinct I would argue they are simply subcategories of the same thing though. In some chapters it has even been named (koka I believe is the word used for it).

What I do think is worth noting is that the implication of hardened haki being simply the norm or what all haki looks like after oda revealed it is that it simply makes absolute no sense within the context of the manga. The implication here would be that haki is only used when the user turns black. Which would imply haki is used disturbingly infrequently. Even though its a generic skill which even weak warriors can use. We are at a stage in the manga where we simply have to assume that fighters of a certain caliber are using haki at all times, haki is simply that ordinary. And yet the implication here would be that haki is only used when the user turns black.

Also worth noting, the hancock sisters. When it comes to hardened haki (the black one) the implication is that to bypass it you need stronger haki. However luffy bested the sisters through sheer brute force. Now, I would assume there is a point at which pure brute strength can bypass hardened haki but the difference in strength would be astounding to put it mildly considering the implication of hardened haki is that it can turn literal garbage into something which could stand up to mihawk's own sword. Heck, sabo and vergo use a pipe and bamboo respectively, that is literally garbage.

These were already brought up, and answered, in the exchange between me and Hannibal Psyche. Black haki isn't always used, the norm is invisible haki. Pre time skip Haki was exclusively shown as invisible during the Marineford arc.
What sparked this discussion is the fact that Psyche was wondering if Zoro had only achieve black Haki, while all evidence shows that his reaction is due to his swords not breaking as explained by Mihawk because they're coated in Haki.
I may had a bit of a confusion initially about "hardened haki". Since the way HP worded it sounded that there are two different types(distinct from each other), when in reality black haki is just another level of mastery of Haki. Armament Haki as a whole appears as invisible, when it's hardened it's black.

Last but not least I'm not confident that full hardened Haki armor is that effective, so in a way while Haki is now a prerequisite in the NW apparently anyone can get it, even Bellamy who isn't exactly a strong fighter.So it kinda cheapened Haki in my eyes.

 

[kkck]

These were already brought up, and answered, in the exchange between me and Hannibal Psyche. Black haki isn't always used, the norm is invisible haki. Pre time skip Haki was exclusively shown as invisible during the Marineford arc.
What sparked this discussion is the fact that Psyche was wondering if Zoro had only achieve black Haki, while all evidence shows that his reaction is due to his swords not breaking as explained by Mihawk because they're coated in Haki.
I may had a bit of a confusion initially about "hardened haki". Since the way HP worded it sounded that there are two different types(distinct from each other), when in reality black haki is just another level of mastery of Haki. Armament Haki as a whole appears as invisible, when it's hardened it's black.

Last but not least I'm not confident that full hardened Haki armor is that effective, so in a way while Haki is now a prerequisite in the NW apparently anyone can get it, even Bellamy who isn't exactly a strong fighter.So it kinda cheapened Haki in my eyes.

Ahh, I see. In that case I got confused about this lol. I doubt it is possible to master black haki without normal haki. You'd be skipping the most basic aspect of it to begin with. We should assume zoro was using the basic armor haki to begin with.

I think is as effective as implied however it is also every bit as cheap as you suggest. It's a generic yet fundamental skill. When it was introduced some people thought haki would be sort of an alternative to devil fruits or martial arts however in context haki was not and cannot be such a thing. Haki is the foundation of combat in this manga, in that regard it' sole purpose is to complement martial arts and/or devil fruits. Ideally both considering most of the insanely strong people around have all 3 things (haki, martial arts and devil fruit). We should assume pretty much all enemies of the strawhats will have this skill from now on. And with time even the weaker antagonists will have it which will get the rest of the strawhats to develop and master haki as well. At least the type that benefits them the most. Although to be honest for me it is hard to imagine how they would manage if they don't at least master observation and armor haki. Franki, brook and chopper are physical fighters. Without armor haki they would be at a massive disadvantage. Ussop will eventually need haki loaded projectiles to be worth something. Observation haki is a good start though. Robin gets wounded if one of her extra limbs take damage, she definitely needs armor haki at the very least. In context the main strawhat crew is aiming for positions comparable to WB commanders or shichibukai if luffy is to be pirate king. So they should not be able to do with less than what people like that currently have which so far seems to be at least haki mastery.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

Ahh, I see. In that case I got confused about this lol. I doubt it is possible to master black haki without normal haki. You'd be skipping the most basic aspect of it to begin with. We should assume zoro was using the basic armor haki to begin with.

I think is as effective as implied however it is also every bit as cheap as you suggest. It's a generic yet fundamental skill. When it was introduced some people thought haki would be sort of an alternative to devil fruits or martial arts however in context haki was not and cannot be such a thing. Haki is the foundation of combat in this manga, in that regard it' sole purpose is to complement martial arts and/or devil fruits. Ideally both considering most of the insanely strong people around have all 3 things (haki, martial arts and devil fruit). We should assume pretty much all enemies of the strawhats will have this skill from now on. And with time even the weaker antagonists will have it which will get the rest of the strawhats to develop and master haki as well. At least the type that benefits them the most. Although to be honest for me it is hard to imagine how they would manage if they don't at least master observation and armor haki. Franki, brook and chopper are physical fighters. Without armor haki they would be at a massive disadvantage. Ussop will eventually need haki loaded projectiles to be worth something. Observation haki is a good start though. Robin gets wounded if one of her extra limbs take damage, she definitely needs armor haki at the very least. In context the main strawhat crew is aiming for positions comparable to WB commanders or shichibukai if luffy is to be pirate king. So they should not be able to do with less than what people like that currently have which so far seems to be at least haki mastery.

Yeah this whole argument was brought up because Psyche was wondering why Zoro was so happy right after defeating Pica when he's reminiscing about what Mihawk had told him about "Black swords".
Basically he was wondering if Zoro had only achieved "Hardened Haki". Since it is now clear that Haki is normally invisible then Zoro was already using it. But the "Hardened Haki" could be seen as the next level of mastery of Haki, as the user is able to concentrate the haki in an area, which makes it appear as black. It doesn't make much sense for Zoro to have only unlocked "Hardened Haki" at that point. Mihawk told him about it during his training, meaning that it was part of his haki training. So it must have been relevant in order for him to bring it up. And Zoro had two years to learn it, and we saw Luffy using the same Hardened Haki after those two years. Also Zoro's specialty according to Oda IS Armament Haki as seen in the SBS.

D: This might be out of nowhere, but who in the Straw Hat Pirates can use Haki? It's bothering me and I can't activate my "Love Hurricane".

O: It's these three. Their specialty haki color is in the parentheses.

Luffy (Haoshoku Haki), Zoro (Busoshoku Haki), Sanji (Kenbunshoku Haki)

So it makes little to no sense for Zoro to only unlock the next level of Haki which is hardened Haki only when he fought Pica.It's his specialty for god's sake. Furthermore it's not comparable to Sai who looked like he just unlocked it because of special circumstances, kinda like Usopp. While when we see Zoro using it he looked like he already knew what he was doing, that it wasn't the first time he used it. There wasn't an emphasis there about Zoro just unlocking it for the first time.

I do not believe that all the SHs will learn Haki, I can only see a few who really need it. The likes of Usopp are better off with Observation Haki, Armament Haki could be a nice plus when dealing with logias, but I doubt Usopp will ever be in a situation when he takes on a logia by himself. Trebol turned out to be a paramecia, that is why Usopp was able to cut him. Robin would really benefit from Armament, but knowing Oda he's against the girls doing anything significant.

My whole point is if Hardened Haki is the advanced stage, then we can ask ourselves why characters like Bellamy can use it so casually. Perhaps it's not so uncommon, and it's not really an advanced stage. Just another use of haki that involves concentrating it in a certain area instead of using it on a broader surface.So the two could go hand in hand, instead of the invisible haki being a prerequisite to achieving Hardened Haki. Basically it's just Haki, it's just the use that is different.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 6, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 6, 2016 ---

And overall I don't believe that Haki is such a powerful tool.Sure it is useful against logias, or when two Hakis are clashing, or when protecting a sword from breaking....but the DF powers are still more important. Take the example of Barto's barriers. Also Law's DF allows him to bypass Haki, although it's not clear if he didn't also use his haki when he cut Vergo in half. Haki is just complementary to other fighting abilities, it is not meant to replace real martial arts of DF powers. It's just a coating if you will, an armor is what describes it best. So I'm not really convinced it's such a game changer, since everyone in the NW seems to have it.

 

[kkck]

Yeah this whole argument was brought up because Psyche was wondering why Zoro was so happy right after defeating Pica when he's reminiscing about what Mihawk had told him about "Black swords".
Basically he was wondering if Zoro had only achieved "Hardened Haki". Since it is now clear that Haki is normally invisible then Zoro was already using it. But the "Hardened Haki" could be seen as the next level of mastery of Haki, as the user is able to concentrate the haki in an area, which makes it appear as black. It doesn't make much sense for Zoro to have only unlocked "Hardened Haki" at that point. Mihawk told him about it during his training, meaning that it was part of his haki training. So it must have been relevant in order for him to bring it up. And Zoro had two years to learn it, and we saw Luffy using the same Hardened Haki after those two years. Also Zoro's specialty according to Oda IS Armament Haki as seen in the SBS.


So it makes little to no sense for Zoro to only unlock the next level of Haki which is hardened Haki only when he fought Pica.It's his specialty for god's sake. Furthermore it's not comparable to Sai who looked like he just unlocked it because of special circumstances, kinda like Usopp. While when we see Zoro using it he looked like he already knew what he was doing, that it wasn't the first time he used it. There wasn't an emphasis there about Zoro just unlocking it for the first time.

I do not believe that all the SHs will learn Haki, I can only see a few who really need it. The likes of Usopp are better off with Observation Haki, Armament Haki could be a nice plus when dealing with logias, but I doubt Usopp will ever be in a situation when he takes on a logia by himself. Trebol turned out to be a paramecia, that is why Usopp was able to cut him. Robin would really benefit from Armament, but knowing Oda he's against the girls doing anything significant.

My whole point is if Hardened Haki is the advanced stage, then we can ask ourselves why characters like Bellamy can use it so casually. Perhaps it's not so uncommon, and it's not really an advanced stage. Just another use of haki that involves concentrating it in a certain area instead of using it on a broader surface.So the two could go hand in hand, instead of the invisible haki being a prerequisite to achieving Hardened Haki. Basically it's just Haki, it's just the use that is different.

Personally I don't think "haki" is an optional thing to any of the strawhats. The strawhat crew is set to be the crew of the pirate king. In that regard luffy doesn't only have to be as strong as roger's but his crew has to be as strong and ridiculous as roger's. At the point luffy becomes pirate king his crew will already have to have the same sort of status roger's crew had. In context that means freaking nami will be regarded in more or less the same way as WB's commanders. Sure, nami doesn't need to take on admirals. But she does need to be able to hold her ground as would any commander would in most situations. It's her actual position in the world. Can luffy best the yonko and ultimate become pirate king if his crew does not match up? For luffy to be pirate king luffy probably needs to be about as strong as a yonko, he needs sanji and zoro to be comparable or greater to the likes of marco, jozu, vista, jack or the admirals, and the rest of his crew to be literally at least as power as the lesser yonko crewmembers. With the sheer amount of power each strawhat needs to for luffy to even have a chance at pirate king it would be extremely weird that they somehow get to skip on haki considering it is the single most fundamental and generic skill people have. Haki is the key to fighting in the manga. Haki is cheap, generic and ordinary but eventually franky, brook, ussop and the rest will have way too much trouble against people who can use even the basics of haki. We saw how luffy fared against the boa sisters... He won but the extent to which haki made a difference was noticeable.

Also worth noting, haki is technically rare. The thing is that for plot purposes that is no longer evident. The new world is where fighters from all over the world gather to duke it out. In other words this is where most haki users would end up one way or the other. Now, with that in mind and within the specific context of the new world, haki mastery and "being insanely strong" don't necessarily go hand in hand. Rather the situation is that the strength range around is simply huge. And haki mastery can occur at all levels of strength. Mastery of haki does not imply strong haki. You have the amazons militia (for a lack of better word) who have haki and yet they would probably be defeated by ussop. Bellamy has used hardening freely, perhaps even at a level comparable to luffy or zoro and yet the actual strength of it does not compare to either of them. Haki mastery merely means you have learned how to use it. It's purely a skill thing that is not fully related to power output. To put it in context, lets look at martial arts. Pretty much literally everyone the strawhats fight is a martial arts master in some form or another. Even nami evidences advanced martial arts skill. However without actual superhuman physical capacities said mastery over martial arts is not particularly relevant or evident. The same goes for haki.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Black haki isn't always used,

because not everyone can use it. Why do You think Sai only got promoted to Don Sai after he achieved the Black Haki?

 

[kkck]

because not everyone can use it. Why do You think Sai only got promoted to Don Sai after he achieved the Black Haki?

I doubt the achievement itself was hardened haki. I always thought the achievement would be that he got that sort of power with his kick. So before that he could use hardened haki but he didn't achieve that sort of power. It's not like anyone who can use hardened haki can get that sort of power. If anything considering don sai's previous performance it is a tad weird that he was able to output such an insane amount of power. Even zoro was wary about it and we are talking about a guy who is able to cut city sized statues.