Discussion Haki Thread

[Brandish μ]

For all ongoing Haki discussion, please post here.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Stop trying to downgrade it to a mere kick, it is supposed to be on par with Chinjao's drill, it is the secret technique of the Hasshoken.It uses vibrations that are representative of the Hasshoken, so no it is not a mere kick. So please stop pushing your argument down our throats.

I'm not downgrading it, it's a mere kick, but for sake of it, it's called "Bujaogen"; it's already a technique he possesses. If the kick were so special, it should have bent Chinjao's head without the Black Armament haki.

The kick was originally called "Bujaogen" which he did explicitly say himself whilst executing it, it's only after the it has Black Armament applied that it's upgraded to "Hasshoken"; so, it's really not a new technique.

Spoiler

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 6, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 6, 2016 ---

It did augment the kick, however it is not the feat itself. Looking at the haki in this specific case completely misses the point.

Chinjao calls that the secret technique of hashoken. Hashoken is a martial art with its own unique properties. Which as any other martial art can be enhanced via haki. However the point here is "the secrete technique of hashoken" being passed on. Haki is not what is special here, it's sai finally mastering his martial art's most powerful technique. Haki doesn't have the property of arbitrarily spliting the land in two. Hashoken's secret technique in turn does have that power. The technique sai used is basically his equivalent to chinjao's own drillhead. Which as the manga has shown can split the land even when it is not hardened.

The Kick was originally called Bujaogen and he says so whilst executing, why does it change name now that it has Black Armament applied? It's clearly not a new technique, just a more powerful one due to the augmenting.

Also, Chinjao's drill only split the Ice-Continent with Black haki, so there's no evidence to claim it does so without haki; you're essentially undermining the relevance of haki here.

Spoiler

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

It's not the same kick, when he does the Kiryu Kirikugi he does a cartwheel motion before using his leg. It's also worth nthing that Sai uses his legs primarly to fight. So no it's a different technique, even the name is different.
You are downgrading it, plus as you can see in that panel that you linked with the Bujaogen it was already coated in hardened Haki.
Or are you going to pretend that Chinjao's drill can be so easily bent, that a kick that hasn't been coated in hardened Haki can bend it?

So in conclusion what is so special about the Kiryu Kirikugi is not the hardened Haki.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

It's not the same kick, when he does the Kiryu Kirikugi he does a cartwheel motion before using his leg. It's also worth nthing that Sai uses his legs primarly to fight. So no it's a different technique, even the name is different.
You are downgrading it, plus as you can see with the Bujaogen it was already coated in hardened Haki.

Sai never had Black Haki until that moment.

If it were a new technique, why did he call it Bujaogen initially? it's only been upgraded to a different name because of the Armament Haki.

If Black Haki isn't a progression, then why does Mihawk tell Zoro he must learn to coat a blade in black if he already was capable of using the Invisible one?

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

Sai never had Black Haki until that moment.

If it were a new technique, why did he call it Bujaogen initially? it's only been upgraded to a different name because of the Armament Haki.

If Black Haki isn't a progression, then why does Mihawk tell Zoro he must learn to coat a blade in black if he already was capable of using the Invisible one?

You linked the page where the Bujaogen is shown having the distinctive Hardened Haki pattern. So how is it that the Kiryu Kirikugi is special only because of the hardened Haki?

You're contradicting yourself.

 

[kkck]

[/SPOILER]

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 6, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 6, 2016 ---

The Kick was originally called Bujaogen and he says so whilst executing, why does it change name now that it has Black Armament applied? It's clearly not a new technique, just a more powerful one due to the augmenting.

Also, Chinjao's drill only split the Ice-Continent with Black haki, so there's no evidence to claim it does so without haki; you're essentially undermining the relevance of haki here.

But the technique you mention did not split the ground. It caused vibrations but it did not do this. Even if it is the same technique there is the difference of it being mastered and it not being mastered. If the whole thing pertained exclusively to haki then anyone using a kick with haki could get the same effect. In turn that is far from the truth and we have in fact seen the technique working without hardened haki being involved. This is about martial arts mastery, not haki mastery.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 6, 2016 ---

Sai never had Black Haki until that moment.

If it were a new technique, why did he call it Bujaogen initially? it's only been upgraded to a different name because of the Armament Haki.

If Black Haki isn't a progression, then why does Mihawk tell Zoro he must learn to coat a blade in black if he already was capable of using the Invisible one?

I am not saying haki isn't a progression.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

Here let me refresh your memory.See that black thingy pattern? That's hardened haki. Moreover, a normal kick cannot bend Chinjao's drill which is COATED IN HARDENED HAKI.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

You linked the page where the Bujaogen is shown having the distinctive Hardened Haki pattern. So how is it that the Kiryu Kirikugi is special only because of the hardened Haki?

You're contradicting yourself.

I never once brought up a Kiryu Kirikugi whatever that attack is.

Sai called in Bujaogen and in Japanese to English, the notes under it translate it into "Martial Art Leg"

Chinjao says I bestow the name "Dragon Drill Nail" unto your "Martial Leg"; it really is the same attack with just Hardened Haki.

Spoiler

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

I never once brought up a Kiryu Kirikugi whatever that attack is.

Sai called in Bujaogen and in Japanese to English, the notes under it translate it into "Martial Art Leg"

Chinjao says I bestow the name "Dragon Drill Nail" unto your "Martial Leg"; it really is the same attack with just Haki.

Spoiler

No it's not, the Kiryu Kirikugi(Sai's technique) IS the equivalent of Chinjao's drill attack, and here you can double check if you don't believe me.
They are two distinctive techniques.
The Kiryu Kirikugi is the Hasshoken's secret technique, the one equivalent to Chinjao's drill, and the one who splits the ground.
This is what we've been arguing about this whole time. You said it was only special because it had hardened Haki applied, when in fact Sai already had hardened haki before he used it.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

But the technique you mention did not split the ground.

Splitting the ground has no relevance, it bent Chinjao's Head.

The attack he used was called "Bujaogen" which means "Martial Leg" when he executed it and it only gets named "Dragon drill" after.

Chinjao says I bestow the name "Dragon Nail" until your "Martial Leg aka Bujaogen", so it really was an upgrade due to Haki and nothing more.

 

[kkck]

I never once brought up a Kiryu Kirikugi whatever that attack is.

Sai called in Bujaogen and in Japanese to English, the notes under it translate it into "Martial Art Leg"

Chinjao says I bestow the name "Dragon Drill Nail" unto your "Martial Leg"; it really is the same attack with just Hardened Haki.

True, but chinjao promotes it and refers to it as an equivalent to his own drillhead. At worst sai simply wouldn't have the power yet to use the attack with its intended effect without haki however even then it wouldn't make this any more a haki feat or any less a martial arts feat. One way or another this is about sai finally being able to use the hashoken's most powerful technique, not about haki.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

No it's not, the Kiryu Kirikugi(Sai's technique) IS the equivalent of the Kiryu Kikugi, the name of Chinjao's drill attack, and here you can double check if you don't believe me.
They are two distinctive techniques.
The Kiryu Kirikugi is the Hasshoken's secret technique, the one equivalent to Chinjao's drill, and the one who splits the ground.
This is what we've been arguing about this whole time. You said it was only special because it had hardened Haki applied, when in fact Sai already had hardened haki before he used it.

Then why did Chinjao literally say I betsow the name "Dragon Drill" unto your "Bujaogen" which literally translates to Martial Leg, same meaning of Bujaogen? How can't it mean it's the same attack, but with haki.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 6, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 6, 2016 ---

True, but chinjao promotes it and refers to it as an equivalent to his own drillhead. At worst sai simply wouldn't have the power yet to use the attack with its intended effect without haki however even then it wouldn't make this any more a haki feat or any less a martial arts feat. One way or another this is about sai finally being able to use the hashoken's most powerful technique, not about haki.

It's the same technique, so it implies technique is not what happened there, but unlocking the Black haki. If not, it should have been a different technique from the beginning and not Bujaogen.

 

[kkck]

Splitting the ground has no relevance, it bent Chinjao's Head.

The attack he used was called "Bujaogen" which means "Martial Leg" when he executed it and it only gets named "Dragon drill" after.

Chinjao says I bestow the name "Dragon Nail" until your "Martial Leg aka Bujaogen", so it really was an upgrade due to Haki and nothing more.

It does have relevance, it is literally and exclusively what sai's thing is all about. A normal kick with haki wouldn't split the ground that way. Take luffy for instance. How many times has he used hardened haki kicks and not split the ground like that? Never and his kicks are probably even stronger than sai's.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

Then why did Chinjao literally say I betsow the name "Dragon Drill" unto your "Bujaogen" which literally translates to Martial Leg, same meaning of Bujaogen? How can't it mean it's the same attack, but with haki.

Because it beat the previous drill attack by bending it. You know what I'm tired of arguing pages about some petty things.
What me and kkck were talking about is the attack that defeated Lao G, which isn't the Bujaogen, but the Kiryu Kirikugi. That one is the secret technique of Hasshoken, that is the equivalent of Chinjao's drill attack that breaks the ice continent, which makes it the ultimate Hasshoken technique.
We were arguing about what makes it so special, but it seems you were mixing stuff up. We never talked about the Bujaogen.
Since it broke the floor it's not just about hardened Haki. It's about it being the ultimate Hasshoken technique, that shows that Sai has mastered Hasshoken. That is why he's able to become the Don of the Happo Navy.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

What me and kkck were talking about is the attack that defeated Lao G, which isn't the Bujaogen, but the Kiryu Kirikugi.

Lao G was not relevant in this, the discussion I brought up was centred around Chinjao and Sai. However, I'll leave it at that.

 

[GodOfDestruction]

Okay since Katakuri has been revealed, everybody(including me) has been going crazy about his haki. So I want to discuss the further use of each type because this is the thing we have been waiting for.

But first.
Let me clear something up about Katakuri and his haki. Everybody says he can't see unpredictable attacks, how far he can see, and the strength of it.
Katakuri's haki has NO drawback.(because everybody hates it when something is flawless) Katakuri can see the future, hands down.

Now for the abilities of each haki type.

Armament Haki.
(Correct me if I'm wrong) But Rayleigh used his a a projectile against that elephant. Second I've heard theories about Big Mom's armament always being active due to prolong training. Now what I think would be the best is that when you train it hard enough you can harm any person if the touch you as long as your haki is on. Think Magellan but instead on poisoning you get physically harmed.

Observation Haki
Now with the ability to see into the future out of the way. Let me tell you would be best for Sanji. He is destined to fight Kizaru in the future. I've heard to get past light you'll need to utilize invisibility. So maybe Sanji can use his observation Haki to the point where he block perception. Which will make him invisible. Since I see him going against Katakuri. The two strongest Observation Haki users.

Finally Conquerer's Haki
So far we have seen that Big Mom has this voice ability if she is emotionally hurt. Trying to find something for this type of Haki was hard but here's what I got. The ability to read minds. This may also fall under observation but I can see it as Conquers. Maybe Akainu does has this type and is able to use it against his does to make them fall before him. Like he did Squard and Ace.

 

[kkck]

I am not 100% sure on the thread's purpose. In any case, a few comments.

It is way too early to say there are not flaws to katakuri's observation haki. We don't even know the limitations of observation haki to begin with. Based on what we have seen katakuri's haki behaves exactly as observation haku has been shown so far. The difference between him and others is that he can predict stuff further ahead.

I wouldn't say the bit rayleigh did with the elephant counts as a special ability of sorts. The basic form of armament haki has been described as a fluid armor of sorts. This at least seems to work similarly to imbuing stuff with haki which as far as we know is a generic haki trait. I guess a plausible variation which would require insane skill would be to throw haki across larger distances without imbuing it on stuff but even that wouldn't be outside the norm.

As for conqueror's haki... I am still of the idea that conqueror's haki in itself does not actually have many uses or even applications. I am even unsure of the bit about her voice being related to conqueror's haki. Conqueror's haki is basically willpower and enables you to use said will power to overpower lesser enemies. conqueror's haki is basically tells you the character someone has. And even the explanation given by bege implies her scream was distinct from her release of conqueror's haki, at least to an extent. In any case, I am skeptical of there being more to conqueror's haki.

As for admiral matchups, if we go by the old generation I don't think it would be kizaru who gets matched up with sanji. I would think the matchups would be luffy vs akainu, zoro vs kizaru and sanji vs aokiji. Luffy and akainu for obvious reasons, zoro vs kizaru because swords, and sanji vs aokiji because sanji has fire to his advantage.

 

[GodOfDestruction]

I am not 100% sure on the thread's purpose. In any case, a few comments.

It is way too early to say there are not flaws to katakuri's observation haki. We don't even know the limitations of observation haki to begin with. Based on what we have seen katakuri's haki behaves exactly as observation haku has been shown so far. The difference between him and others is that he can predict stuff further ahead.

I wouldn't say the bit rayleigh did with the elephant counts as a special ability of sorts. The basic form of armament haki has been described as a fluid armor of sorts. This at least seems to work similarly to imbuing stuff with haki which as far as we know is a generic haki trait. I guess a plausible variation which would require insane skill would be to throw haki across larger distances without imbuing it on stuff but even that wouldn't be outside the norm.

As for conqueror's haki... I am still of the idea that conqueror's haki in itself does not actually have many uses or even applications. I am even unsure of the bit about her voice being related to conqueror's haki. Conqueror's haki is basically willpower and enables you to use said will power to overpower lesser enemies. conqueror's haki is basically tells you the character someone has. And even the explanation given by bege implies her scream was distinct from her release of conqueror's haki, at least to an extent. In any case, I am skeptical of there being more to conqueror's haki.

As for admiral matchups, if we go by the old generation I don't think it would be kizaru who gets matched up with sanji. I would think the matchups would be luffy vs akainu, zoro vs kizaru and sanji vs aokiji. Luffy and akainu for obvious reasons, zoro vs kizaru because swords, and sanji vs aokiji because sanji has fire to his advantage.

Kizaru was a kick based fighter and was really fast, which Sanji is.

Aokiji was a slow but heavy fighter like Zoro. Kuzans powers allowed for long and short range deadly attacks(you can say that about all three admirals)

 

[kkck]

Kizaru was a kick based fighter and was really fast, which Sanji is.

Aokiji was a slow but heavy fighter like Zoro. Kuzans powers allowed for long and short range deadly attacks(you can say that about all three admirals)

Based on what little we have seen, we can't reasonably argue kizaru is a kick based fighter and kuzan is slow... That's insane. We saw kizaru use kicks a couple of times but when it came to fighting seriously against rayleigh he used a sword. And there is literally nothing to suggest kuzan is slow. And zoro is in no form or context slow. If anything speed is a crucial part of his combat style. In what universe does the slower swordsman beat the faster swordsman?

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Conqueror's haki is basically willpower and enables you to use said will power to overpower lesser enemies. conqueror's haki is basically tells you the character someone has.

Unlikely that all it does is just highlight character and knock fodder out.

1. The Gorgon sisters didn't lose consciousness which means they are strong-willed.
2. And in fact, prior to Luffy using Conqueror's Haki, he was losing the fight. They had a response for every move and exercised greater strength.

Why would opponents who having just overwhelmed their target suddenly feel threatened by their opponent JUST because he let out an outburst of Conqueror's Haki which you claim to be a pretty insignificant power?.

1. They lost their confidence in themselves after already establishing beyond a doubt that they were superior to begin with.
2. But only regain their confidence when they realise he has no control over this power? Meaning if he had control of this power, even with his inferior ability to combat them, he would have become a problem which suggests their fighting capability may or would have been handicapped.
3. More so, why would they state nothing to be afraid were they not afraid in the first place? and why did they even obey his orders when he's a man without approval from their empress? It's quite clear that the ability to intimidate is what Conqueror's haki is, and it can have an impact on fighting ability, or else, they'd have no reason to lose confidence in themselves after proving at that point that they were superior.

Pretty clear it is the power to intimidate. It's not a mere power just for show to highlight greatness. This is even the ability that's going to play a huge role in determining Pirate King. It makes no sense to really assume it's just a fodder weeding device that just tips off people that someone has potential to be great whene everyone does regardless of Conqueror's Haki - it has to have a distinct application in order to be feared.

 

[kkck]

Unlikely that all it does is just highlight character and knock fodder out.

1. The Gorgon sisters didn't lose consciousness which means they are strong-willed.
2. And in fact, prior to Luffy using Conqueror's Haki, he was losing the fight. They had a response for every move and exercised greater strength.

Why would opponents who having just overwhelmed their target suddenly feel threatened by their opponent JUST because he let out an outburst of Conqueror's Haki which you claim to be a pretty insignificant power?.

1. They lost their confidence in themselves after already establishing beyond a doubt that they were superior to begin with.
2. But only regain their confidence when they realise he has no control over this power? Meaning if he had control of this power, even with his inferior ability to combat them, he would have become a problem which suggests their fighting capability may or would have been handicapped.
3. More so, why would they state nothing to be afraid were they not afraid in the first place? and why did they even obey his orders when he's a man without approval from their empress? It's quite clear that the ability to intimidate is what Conqueror's haki is, and it can have an impact on fighting ability, or else, they'd have no reason to lose confidence in themselves after proving at that point that they were superior.

Pretty clear it is the power to intimidate. It's not a mere power just for show to highlight greatness. This is even the ability that's going to play a huge role in determining Pirate King. It makes no sense to really assume it's just a fodder weeding device that just tips off people that someone has potential to be great whene everyone does regardless of Conqueror's Haki - it has to have a distinct application in order to be feared.

What are you talking about? That time luffy's conqueror haki was just a burst that had no effect on the rest of the fight. Luffy started overwhelming the boa sisters when he used gear two.

The bit with conqueror haki overpower people only works out against much weaker people. If conqueror's haki does anything at all in fights where the people involved are of comparable strength, the manga has yet to evidence it or otherwise explain it.Can you imagine luffy intimidating doflamingo or vice versa? I don't see how that makes a shred of sense.