Discussion Haki Thread

[Brandish μ]

For all ongoing Haki discussion, please post here.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

A-Ha! Gotcha! You just contradicted yourself by making this example.
Wherever you used the word Goken now go and place Future Sight instead.

Rather you're the one taking Goken as a similitude for FS. I'm not.

Instead, place the word "Zoom" there and all your problems are solved.
What works for one does not necessarily work for the other but whatever way makes you understand the story better. I've got no qualms.

I guess we just have to agree to disagree at this juncture.

 

[M3J]

Lets start this with a question... why does some islands have their own haki versions and others are cluesless like a newborn?

In Kuja we have the "kujahaki", Wano "Ryou" and skyislands "Mantra".

Is it the closer you come to raftel the more likely you are to activate your haki?

You mean, extremely secluded areas where people rarely trespass or outsiders are forbidden? We know Wano is closed off to outsiders, and they probably did their own thing for centuries, so they had a different name for haki, while Skypeia is nearly inaccessible by majority without the right condition, so they came up with their own word, and Kuja probably wanted to call it kujahaki. Not that different from each regions calling the same thing different things, like how North US call soft drinks soda and the wacky South call it pop.

Different regions have different dialects, and One Piece is no different when it comes to haki.

Besides, haki doesn't seem to be as common as we believe, and so far it doesn't look like any Marines have CoC.

 

[nik87]

@Hannibal Psyche @AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA You may be right about the terminology, that Goken is not a name for a way of using CoA but instead for skillful swordsman what mighty blade basically means. However, what makes the swordsman skillful, what makes him a mighty blade?
Brook, who hasn't seen anything of Zoro's fighting style, called him a mighty blade after witnessing his flying slash attack, that's all he knew about Zoro.
What is the flying slash basically? Energy blast, sent from the body, through the sword in a sharp form.

@Hannibal Psyche You think the ability to cut everything is BOAT and not Haki. Then why are the swordsmen focusing on CoA so much? Hardening, black blade, why bother with it if all it takes is the will? It's very illogical that a will becomes a flying slash and it's much more likely for flying slashes to be release of Haki. Also, you say that what Rayleigh did is the same Haki that Luffy is doing. Yes, it is the same but only in Color while the way of using it, call it form or technique is not the same. He obviously cannot do it even tho it's of the same Color. Future Sight is of the same color as the regular observation that so many users posses but how many are able to use FS? Being of the same color doesn't mean it's the same form, technique, way of using it...

@AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA That name which Sentomaru used is only used by him and we dont know if it signifies the name for Haki release or it's just named attack for Sentomaru's sumo style, the name has not been used by Rayleigh, Boa sisters, Hyogoro...

What Rayleigh showed to Luffy, as an example of CoA, is undoubtedly Haki. Whether it is called Goken or not, it doesnt really matter. Just because it is of the same Color doesn't matter as well, Luffy is not able to do it, it is an advanced way/technique/form of using Armament Haki. Releasing Haki through a palm strike is advanced CoA. The principle of Haki palm strike is the same as flying strike, it is no coincidence that Zoro started using flying strikes after Alabasta.

When Zoro says, to push and push is the way of a mighty blade... Push what? It could easily mean to push the energy through the sword, the same principle of Haki palm strike.
@Hannibal Psyche Not all things happen by the will but Haki is definitely obeying to it. Luffy's stretchiness is possible without him willing it, someone pulls his arm it will stretch whether he wills it or not. Can you say the same for Haki? No.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

@Hannibal Psyche @AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA You may be right about the terminology, that Goken is not a name for a way of using CoA but instead for skillful swordsman what mighty blade basically means. However, what makes the swordsman skillful, what makes him a mighty blade?
Brook, who hasn't seen anything of Zoro's fighting style, called him a mighty blade after witnessing his flying slash attack, that's all he knew about Zoro.
What is the flying slash basically? Energy blast, sent from the body, through the sword in a sharp form.

@Hannibal Psyche You think the ability to cut everything is BOAT and not Haki. Then why are the swordsmen focusing on CoA so much? Hardening, black blade, why bother with it if all it takes is the will? It's very illogical that a will becomes a flying slash and it's much more likely for flying slashes to be release of Haki. Also, you say that what Rayleigh did is the same Haki that Luffy is doing. Yes, it is the same but only in Color while the way of using it, call it form or technique is not the same. He obviously cannot do it even tho it's of the same Color. Future Sight is of the same color as the regular observation that so many users posses but how many are able to use FS? Being of the same color doesn't mean it's the same form, technique, way of using it...

Can we speculate that a much less dangerous version of haki could exist that doesn't affect logias but still is haki somehow? Because, remember that Marco and Vista couldn't harm Akainu despite using haki. And Katakuris armament was a level above Luffy's too, and bypassed Luffy's hardening. Implying there are different levels to armament.

I don't know, just speculating. Do you think T-Bone used haki too?

That name which Sentomaru used is only used by him and we dont know if it signifies the name for Haki release or it's just named attack for Sentomaru's sumo style, the name has not been used by Rayleigh, Boa sisters, Hyogoro...

Just a couple of clarifications:

Ashigara Dokkoi (足空独行アシガラドッコイ, Ashigara Dokkoi, literally meaning "Leg-Locked Heave-Ho").

From OP wikia.

When Zoro says, to push and push is the way of a mighty blade... Push what? It could easily mean to push the energy through the sword, the same principle of Haki palm strike.

Actually Zoro said that during his fight with Mr.1. He needed to cut steel so he probably meant that as a swordsman you need to take challenges and overcome them. From not being able to cut steel —> to cutting steel.

 

[nik87]

Can we speculate that a much less dangerous version of haki could exist that doesn't affect logias but still is haki somehow? Because, remember that Marco and Vista couldn't harm Akainu despite using haki. And Katakuris armament was a level above Luffy's too, and bypassed Luffy's hardening. Implying there are different levels to armament.

I don't know, just speculating. Do you think T-Bone used haki too?

Highly possible and I already thought of this and how it would make sense.
Mihawk's flying slashes have not hurt either Jozu nor Mr.1, while Mihawk's slash by the sword itself hurt Mr.1 easily. Both Vista and Marco have used a flying slash even tho they were in close range and haven't hurt Akainu.

The logical explanation would be - flying slashes are in the end just energy blasts and they are not strong enough to hurt superior elements like steel and diamond or the logia bodies of high tier fighters. The metal of the sword is much superior than energy blast and has no issue hurting the steel of Mr.1 and possibly the diamond of Jozu but in Jozu's case I think very strong CoA is needed to bridge the gap between metal and diamond, possibly a black blade.

Why did Jozu hurt Aokiji while Vista and Marco failed to hurt Akainu? Because Jozu attack was superior since it was done by a diamond compared to energy blast which has hit Akainu.
There are different levels/forms to CoA for sure and this release with a palm strike is definitely it. The only uncertainty we have is if flying strikes are really Haki release or it is something else but looking at the principle of Haki palm strikes it certainly looks like the same thing and we also know that Zoro's flying strike was Haki when it cut Monet's cheek and Monet is not a high tier fighter like Akainu to be resistant to it.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Because, remember that Marco and Vista couldn't harm Akainu despite using haki. And Katakuris armament was a level above Luffy's too, and bypassed Luffy's hardening. Implying there are different levels to armament.

I don't think there are literally levels of armament Haki. Like level 1,2,5,10, etc.
I think it has to do with the individual's physical strength.

Luffy's CoA in base form is significantly weaker than his CoA in G4. This does not mean Luffy's CoA in G4 was advanced compared to the one in his base form. Rather it's the same CoA but since G4 is physically way more powerful than Luffy's other gears, we see a stronger Haki with G4.

Similarly, Akainu should be physically stronger than Marco and Vista hence his Haki should be superior to theirs (I mean he was strong enough to go one on one with their sick old captain).

Thus, as Luffy grows stronger physically with training, harder battles, his Haki should grow along with him (hence a more powerful CoA).
This explanation gets better when we look at the Legends – Garp, Whitebeard, Rayleigh, Sengoku – All of them are said to have gotten weaker due to old age.
Old age leads to a drop in physical strength which equates to a drop in Haki.
They were all ridiculously powerful in their younger days equating to way stronger Haki back in the days.
Their Haki did not just remain the same as they got older. It got weaker along with their physical condition.

 

[nik87]

I don't think there are literally levels of armament Haki. Like level 1,2,5,10, etc.
I think it has to do with the individual's physical strength.

Luffy's CoA in base form is significantly weaker than his CoA in G4. This does not mean Luffy's CoA in G4 was advanced compared to the one in his base form. Rather it's the same CoA but since G4 is physically way more powerful than Luffy's other gears, we see a stronger Haki with G4.

Similarly, Akainu should be physically stronger than Marco and Vista hence his Haki should be superior to theirs (I mean he was strong enough to go one on one with their sick old captain).

Thus, as Luffy grows stronger physically with training, harder battles, his Haki should grow along with him (hence a more powerful CoA).
This explanation gets better when we look at the Legends – Garp, Whitebeard, Rayleigh, Sengoku – All of them are said to have gotten weaker due to old age.
Old age leads to a drop in physical strength which equates to a drop in Haki.
They were all ridiculously powerful in their younger days equating to way stronger Haki back in the days.
Their Haki did not just remain the same as they got older. It got weaker along with their physical condition.

I disagree here. Haki is spiritual energy, it's not physical. Whether Luffy is in base form or G4 his Haki level remains the same, it was never implied that when he is in G4 his Haki is stronger, he only uses more of it. Higher quantity doesnt equal to higher quality.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

The only uncertainty we have is if flying strikes are really Haki release or it is something else but looking at the principle of Haki palm strikes it certainly looks like the same thing and we also know that Zoro's flying strike was Haki when it cut Monet's cheek and Monet is not a high tier fighter like Akainu to be resistant to it.

Flying slashes are not Haki going by evidences of what we we've seen.
I think it depends on the Swordsman whether or not he wants to coat it in Haki.

Zoro showed Monet that he could kill her if he wished (regarding the first slash on her cheek) cos he could use Haki. But then he slashed her body without using Haki.

Mihawk does the same when he sent a slash that hit Buggy. That slash wasn't imbued with Haki or Buggy would be dead/seriously injured.

Flying slashes can be imbued or not imbued with CoA not that whenever Flying slashes are produced, they are produced with Haki.
Same applies to all of Zoro's slashes Pre TS. He had not learned Haki, he couldn't use CoA. Definitely all his slashes back then were not Haki imbued.
This is consistent throughout the story but some feel the need to explain Zoro's attack on Enel bcos they feel Zoro could use CoA since Alabasta.
Nope, he couldn't. No SH could. End of discussion.

 

[nik87]

Flying slashes are not Haki going by evidences of what we we've seen.
I think it depends on the Swordsman whether or not he wants to coat it in Haki.

They could or could not be Haki, we dont really know for sure. One thing is known tho, flying slash that has hit Monet's cheek was either Haki itself or Haki coated.

But then he slashed her body without using Haki.

Correct but that strike wasn't flying slash. We are discussing flying slashes and whether they are Haki or just coated in Haki.

Mihawk does the same when he sent a slash that hit Buggy. That slash wasn't imbued with Haki or Buggy would be dead/seriously injured.

I am not sure about that, it would nullify the ability of Buggy's DF while Haki doesn't nullify DF abilities. If Buggy would be injured from Haki coated slashes the very purpose of his DF would be destroyed.

Flying slashes can be imbued or not imbued with CoA not that whenever Flying slashes are produced, they are produced with Haki.
Same applies to all of Zoro's slashes Pre TS. He had not learned Haki, he couldn't use CoA. Definitely all his slashes back then were not Haki imbued.
This is consistent throughout the story but some feel the need to explain Zoro's attack on Enel bcos they feel Zoro could use CoA since Alabasta.
Nope, he couldn't. No SH could. End of discussion.

Well, we actually dont know for sure if flying slash is Haki release or not. Both you and I are assuming, there is no confirmation from the manga.
How can you say that all his slashes were definitely not Haki imbued? Flying slash, even if not Haki itself, while coated in Haki isnt a guarantee to hurt anyone - Marco and Vista didnt hurt Akainu with their flying slashes and those slashes were either Haki or Haki imbued, yet failed to injure Akainu.
Zoro didnt use flying slashes against Enel and even if he did there is no guarantee that he would hurt him at all (Marco+Vista vs Akainu example).

What Zoro learned in Alabasta is associated with cutting steel. Whether that ability is Haki or not, Zoro didnt know that it was useful against Logia and Enel was not made of steel so there was no need for Zoro to use ability to cut steel against Enel who isnt steel. If flying slashes are Haki and if cutting steel is done by Haki it is not creating an inconsistency with Enel because Zoro didnt have a teacher to explain him the usefulness of it against a Logia.

Can you say for sure that Asura isnt CoA? Haki is spiritual energy while Asura is a manifestation of the spirit. Can you say for sure that flying slashes are not a manifestation of spirit as well? Nothing is confirmed nor denied, it is all open to discussion but keep in mind that Oda pointed out Zoro's talent for CoA and it would be of no surprise that he is much better at it than Luffy. Who else needs stronger CoA than a candidate for WSS?

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Can you say for sure that Asura isnt CoA?

Yes. Asura is a 3 swordstyle technique that Zoro does and has nothing to do with Haki. Zoro can by choice use Haki along with it if he wants.
It's similar to Luffy's jet bazooka. It's just a named technique of Luffy's. He can coat it with Haki if he wants.

am not sure about that, it would nullify the ability of Buggy's DF while Haki doesn't nullify DF abilities. If Buggy would be injured from Haki coated slashes the very purpose of his DF would be destroyed

Isn't that what Haki does to DF users like Logia. Bypassing their intangibility and removes their DF advantage.

It's a similar situation to Luffy's. Knock Luffy without Haki and he'll not feel it (bcos that's one of the abilities his DF grants him - high resistance to blunt attacks).
Do that with Haki and he feels it. Haki makes that possible.
It's essentially what Garp does with his "fist of love".

Same with Buggy. Cut him without Haki and he splits. It's one of the abilities his DF grants him. Cut him with Haki and he'll definitely bleed.
Unless you're suggesting there's no way to defeat Buggy with swords (even with Haki) since his DF makes him split whenever he's cut.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 21, 2019, Original Post Date: Apr 21, 2019 ---

Marco and Vista didnt hurt Akainu with their flying slashes and those slashes were either Haki or Haki imbued, yet failed to injure Akainu.

Does Marco even use swords? How the hell did he send a flying slash towards Akainu?

 

[Sachsenhesse]

Same with Buggy. Cut him without Haki and he splits. It's one of the abilities his DF grants him. Cut him with Haki and he'll definitely bleed.
Unless you're suggesting

Actually. That has yet to be proven. Since he can attach himself like he wants even if sliced away. Sure haki cuts him... what does it matter? He can close the slash in an instant.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Actually. That has yet to be proven. Since he can attach himself like he wants even if sliced away. Sure haki cuts him... what does it matter? He can close the slash in an instant.

My point is he'll be damaged/severely injured/dead depending on how brutal the (Haki) slash is.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

My point is he'll be damaged/severely injured/dead depending on how brutal the (Haki) slash is.

I know. But i dont see that happening. Since his powers arent lost when you split a arm from him... he simply reattaches it. We tend to see it like Luffy, but its another case in my opinion.

You can cancel Mr.1 ability and hurt him, but for Buggy... you cancel it and a splitsecond( huahuahua pun) later he has his powers again. No more scratch or splitting.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

I know. But i dont see that happening. Since his powers arent lost when you split a arm from him... he simply reattaches it. We tend to see it like Luffy, but its another case in my opinion.

You can cancel Mr.1 ability and hurt him, but for Buggy... you cancel it and a splitsecond( huahuahua pun) later he has his powers again. No more scratch or splitting.

So in essence you are saying sword slash even with CoA cannot damage Buggy.
Then you can as well give Buggy the win against any swordsman – even Mihawk since – they apparently can't damage Buggy.

That's ridiculous! This is what Haki does. Takes away your DF advantage.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

Jeah buts that what i am saying. Buggy is hell for swordsmen and thats awesome in my eyes and also my headcanon until proven wrong.

Not like that would be invincible... just give him a beating with the hilt, but with slashes no way Jose.

 

[nik87]

Yes. Asura is a 3 swordstyle technique that Zoro does and has nothing to do with Haki. Zoro can by choice use Haki along with it if he wants.
It's similar to Luffy's jet bazooka. It's just a named technique of Luffy's. He can coat it with Haki if he wants.

You cant say that with certainty...
Luffy's bazookas are not a manifestation of spirit...

Isn't that what Haki does to DF users like Logia. Bypassing their intangibility and removes their DF advantage.

It's a similar situation to Luffy's. Knock Luffy without Haki and he'll not feel it (bcos that's one of the abilities his DF grants him - high resistance to blunt attacks).
Do that with Haki and he feels it. Haki makes that possible.
It's essentially what Garp does with his "fist of love".

Same with Buggy. Cut him without Haki and he splits. It's one of the abilities his DF grants him. Cut him with Haki and he'll definitely bleed.
Unless you're suggesting there's no way to defeat Buggy with swords (even with Haki) since his DF makes him split whenever he's cut.

It doesnt remove DF advantage, only treats logia bodies as something solid. When a Haki user cuts Mr.1 he is still cutting steel, when Haki punches Luffy it is still punching rubber. Haki is not needed to hurt Luffy with blunt force, just force big enough, Garp's punches are no joke, the guy has a nickname The Fist.
I think Buggy is completely immune to slashes even by Haki attacks, easy way around his ability is simply using blunt force to beat him up. Just guessing.

Does Marco even use swords? How the hell did he send a flying slash towards Akainu?

He doesnt by the flying slash came from his claws on his Phoenix legs, look closely on that scene.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

You cant say that with certainty...

Of course it's not certain. I'm just working with what I've got.
Oda can build up on that and go in another direction. All I'll do is accept and throw out my thoughts. But that's if it's something else.
For now, it's what I think it is until proven otherwise.

It doesnt remove DF advantage, only treats logia bodies as something solid.

My bad...
Perhaps I didn't compose my words well. It removes the advantage of intangibility is what I'm getting at.

He doesnt by the flying slash came from his claws on his Phoenix legs, look closely on that scene.

I'm feeling lazy going back to Marineford arc but I believe you.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

@Hannibal Psyche You think the ability to cut everything is BOAT and not Haki.

That's where you're wrong.

I don't think that, the Manga states so, therefore, I believe that.

Where is it stated that Haki is Goken?

 

[Kato756]

HAKI
COATED
SHIP

named the black ram

ODA PLS

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

It's very illogical that a will becomes a flying slash and it's much more likely for flying slashes to be release of Haki.

Another thing that makes no sense.

Haki simply makes a blade harder. That has nothing to do with attacks flying.

If you were being logical here, you'd at least say it's due to wind pressure, powerful swing = flying attacks.

However, the fact is BOAT states that one can convey their will into their blade.

Is it mere coincidence that right after Zoro has learnt to convey his will into his blade. In skypiea, he says "his blade will become a cannon" in order to convey to his blade that it's a cannon that fires. This was the first time he fired a flying attack. It implies flying attacks, at least in this instance is from the ability to convey one's will into their blade.

Zoro conveys to his blade that it's a cannon, it acts like a cannon.

It's simply conveying wills. Whether it's to convey a will into a blade to cut or to fire an attack, the concept is they same... "convey will".