Discussion Haki Thread

[Brandish μ]

For all ongoing Haki discussion, please post here.

 

[King Moe]

Well, no, but that is clearly a badly drawn frame with weird hair. All of it is pointy and longer than usual. I mean, the bit clearly extends from his hair and over his cheek. At least if you zoom on it it doesn't like like hardening at all.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 14, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 14, 2020 ---

When has sanji damaged stronger threats? The page one bit was ultimately not all that clear, he didn't deal lasting damage on oven, got wrecked by doflamingo and vergo broke his leg... Sanji's armor haki has rarely, if ever, held up in this regard.

PO was damage hard to the point of screaming out each time in both Full Zoan and Hybrid Form. Thinking he wasn't hurt in the fight is illogical as screaming in pain is not you not feeling anything. You can't prove against that nor make sense why PO never appear until much later at Fire Festival. All facts push Sanji defeated him, nothing to imply he came out unscathed at all.

Sanji was fine on Vergo fight as it could go either way in damaging Vergo prior before that and that was him even nerf in there. I agree on Doflamingo fight, but Doflamingo complicated on his prowress just same with Law who also lost to him. If your excuse is they aren't stronger cause of having trouble with enemies before, it make no sense on how Oda pushing them as major threats now and gotten stronger since. You get stronger every arc, so this isn't something non-canon on how Oda push them on being major players in the Alliance.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 14, 2020 ---

Yes, though I don't think they are relevant to that specific issue. Much like how the Vinsmokes weren't relevant to big mom's interest in the germa army for instance.

The wiki is not proof of course. BUT it's a case where neither I nor however many people edit the wiki have found any instance of confirmed hardened haki on sanji's part. Add to that that there have been plenty of instances where using it would have been beneficial. Against vergo, doflamingo, daifuku... If sanji hasn't shown it in the manga at this point then we should assume he can't. Until he does.

Well, I've made the case that it's extremely unlikely that luffy's supernova peers have kept up with him. Gear 4 alone is a rather insane and on top of that luffy has had insane haki boosts... He is probably the only supernova that has improved armor and observation haki to their max known levels. Sure, all characters grow stronger every arc but luffy's peers going through the same or comparable BS to what luffy went through sounds pretty damn unlikely.

Both are very interested in helping her goals in being PK (PQ in her case).

Again we can't talk about it like you said if it's fanposting site, so you can't use it as backup, but what we do know Sanji has display it showing in Anime and Manga on instances. You can learn to have it later or trained to get it. Not everyone stay on same level and don't evolve as you have no proof on that circumstance to be honest. Daifuku, Page One, and Kanjuro's attack are prove his power has evolve over time especially his Haki. You can't damage someone if your Haki is low. That is canon fact that series have stated about it.

Maybe not 100% equal to Luffy, but they are no doubt very close in power given how Oda put them together and are future to be Whitebeard/Shiki to his Roger, so if Oda going for that, we have to see that as canon by portrayal and hype. It make sense and this OP as it done it before and it's not really BS. It be more thinking people don't train off-screen. Not every you see will be on-screen as Oda does off-screen moments. Judging by performance, they do get stronger. Don't have to always show it on-screen each time.

We can agree to disagree, but more you thinking no one is ready, your going be surprise on factor on what new moves and powers they show in upcoming War. Just like Water 7 to Enies Lobby, you should expect it on their growth can be, not just certain arcs, but in many of them.

 

[kkck]

PO was damage hard to the point of screaming out each time in both Full Zoan and Hybrid Form. Thinking he wasn't hurt in the fight is illogical as screaming in pain is not you not feeling anything. You can't prove against that nor make sense why PO never appear until much later at Fire Festival. All facts push Sanji defeated him, nothing to imply he came out unscathed at all.

Sanji was fine on Vergo fight as it could go either way in damaging Vergo prior before that and that was him even nerf in there. I agree on Doflamingo fight, but Doflamingo complicated on his prowress just same with Law who also lost to him. If your excuse is they aren't stronger cause of having trouble with enemies before, it make no sense on how Oda pushing them as major threats now and gotten stronger since. You get stronger every arc, so this isn't something non-canon on how Oda push them on being major players in the Alliance.

Luffy hit the guy with gear 3 and the guy still stood up though. I don't think much of page one's strength but if he stood up from luffy's gear 3 attack then all bets are off when it comes to whatever sanji can dish out.

My point is not that sanji is weaker or that he hasn't grown stronger. He could very well have grown stronger over time AND not have this absurdly basic skill. My point regarding those fights is that hardening would have been extremely useful and yet he didn't use it. The most reasonable explanation for that is that sanji plainly does not have access to the technique. Now, he might have it now BUT he has simply not evidenced it.

Ultimately, as of now, there is exactly zero evidence that sanji has it. As there are exactly zero frames in the manga of him using it.

 

[HereNThere]

Well, no, but that is clearly a badly drawn frame with weird hair. All of it is pointy and longer than usual. I mean, the bit clearly extends from his hair and over his cheek. At least if you zoom on it it doesn't like like hardening at all.

I really don't see what's wrong with the art in the frame.

I've zoomed in several times now. The first few times when the chapter first came out to make sure I wasn't seeing things as well as any other time I point this out to make sure I'm still not just seeing things. It's hardening.

We know Sanji isn't naturally bullet proof when he was escaping with Luffy in WCI. I highly doubt that his suit is his new Raid Suit, so it should just be a regular suit. Either Oda made a significant inking error and just made Sanji's neck extra black in that one panel, and literally, this one instance in the manga or it's hardening. I'm going with the latter given the context of the panel.

 

[kkck]

I really don't see what's wrong with the art in the frame.

I've zoomed in several times now. The first few times when the chapter first came out to make sure I wasn't seeing things as well as any other time I point this out to make sure I'm still not just seeing things. It's hardening.

We know Sanji isn't naturally bullet proof when he was escaping with Luffy in WCI. I highly doubt that his suit is his new Raid Suit, so it should just be a regular suit. Either Oda made a significant inking error and just made Sanji's neck extra black in that one panel, and literally, this one instance in the manga or it's hardening. I'm going with the latter given the context of the panel.

More than wrong, it's a gag. All of sanji's hair is longer and pointier than usual there. And the black part is just his pointy hair extending over his cheek. It's not even the usual hardening color... Sanji isn't bulletproof of course but regular haki would easily explain that bit.

 

[King Moe]

More than wrong, it's a gag. All of sanji's hair is longer and pointier than usual there. And the black part is just his pointy hair extending over his cheek. It's not even the usual hardening color... Sanji isn't bulletproof of course but regular haki would easily explain that bit.

Not really a gag about that as that is a feat when we saw him unharmed afterwards from Kanjuro's ship destroying attack and also since when gag remove a character being serious? Every character has a gag. That is poor argument to use to say Sanji is unable to use it or isn't stronger by that when Oda puts gags on majority of everyone this point. Sanji has same color scheme of Hardening in both Anime and Manga, Basic COA can not let you harm T6H nor block Giant Haki Armor Genie if that was the case. He is strong without and with RS, you shouldn't denied that characters can unlock something later. Got expect development on character's abilities than thinking they be the same level in the future of arcs.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 14, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 14, 2020 ---

Luffy hit the guy with gear 3 and the guy still stood up though. I don't think much of page one's strength but if he stood up from luffy's gear 3 attack then all bets are off when it comes to whatever sanji can dish out.

My point is not that sanji is weaker or that he hasn't grown stronger. He could very well have grown stronger over time AND not have this absurdly basic skill. My point regarding those fights is that hardening would have been extremely useful and yet he didn't use it. The most reasonable explanation for that is that sanji plainly does not have access to the technique. Now, he might have it now BUT he has simply not evidenced it.

Ultimately, as of now, there is exactly zero evidence that sanji has it. As there are exactly zero frames in the manga of him using it.

Luffy wasn't even trying to want to take him down, just move him out of the way. Plus we don't know how PO was after Sanji fight as he was gone and didn't appear since Fire Festival. Given he never came back to do mission with Drake and Hawkins, he was hurt bad similar to what Luffy did to him or worse if he need recovering. By your logic we can expect Holdem wasn't harm since he came back himself and he is even weaker than PO.

He was just testing himself with PO, but doesn't erase that he wasn't using Haki or not when PO was clearly using COA on himself. He wouldn't have give major damage if his Haki wasn't able to pierce and give damage to the point he screams each time in his forms. His abilities outmatch PO easily to the point he was ragdoll in the fight and wasn't able to keep up. I get you want more physical showing, but it's like case with how you were debating about Luffy kicking Katakuri as by same logic, we can presume Luffy didn't use Haki on his foot given no shading on it despite his leg was. Again Oda isn't detail to deep degree few times and that is just example of that. Same case with Sanji's example, but we know Oda see him highly at level if he could did what he did in offense and defense.

 

[kkck]

Not really a gag about that as that is a feat when we saw him unharmed afterwards from Kanjuro's ship destroying attack and also since when gag remove a character being serious? Every character has a gag. That is poor argument to use to say Sanji is unable to use it or isn't stronger by that when Oda puts gags on majority of everyone this point. Sanji has same color scheme of Hardening in both Anime and Manga, Basic COA can not let you harm T6H nor block Giant Haki Armor Genie if that was the case. He is strong without and with RS, you shouldn't denied that characters can unlock something later. Got expect development on character's abilities than thinking they be the same level in the future of arcs.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 14, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 14, 2020 ---

Luffy wasn't even trying to want to take him down, just move him out of the way. Plus we don't know how PO was after Sanji fight as he was gone and didn't appear since Fire Festival. Given he never came back to do mission with Drake and Hawkins, he was hurt bad similar to what Luffy did to him or worse if he need recovering. By your logic we can expect Holdem wasn't harm since he came back himself and he is even weaker than PO.

He was just testing himself with PO, but doesn't erase that he wasn't using Haki or not when PO was clearly using COA on himself. He wouldn't have give major damage if his Haki wasn't able to pierce and give damage to the point he screams each time in his forms. His abilities outmatch PO easily to the point he was ragdoll in the fight and wasn't able to keep up. I get you want more physical showing, but it's like case with how you were debating about Luffy kicking Katakuri as by same logic, we can presume Luffy didn't use Haki on his foot given no shading on it despite his leg was. Again Oda isn't detail to deep degree few times and that is just example of that. Same case with Sanji's example, but we know Oda see him highly at level if he could did what he did in offense and defense.

The gag is about the hair... It got all spiky, presumably because of pain or something. And that black bit over his face is simply a spiky hair strand, nothing more. And... that's a weird thing to frame what I am saying as. My point is simply that that is not an instance that evidences hardening. As we see no part of his body turning black. Normal invisible armor haki? sure, most likely in play here.

 

[HereNThere]

More than wrong, it's a gag. All of sanji's hair is longer and pointier than usual there. And the black part is just his pointy hair extending over his cheek. It's not even the usual hardening color... Sanji isn't bulletproof of course but regular haki would easily explain that bit.

The excess shading has nothing to do with the gag. The closest thing he has to that sort of thing is when he's angry. However, when that happens, he's on fire and all of his hair is standing up. Not just one single strand that's not even standing up.

Sanji's hair is normal. That's the shading on his cheek making it look like it's longer and sharper than it should be. And the reason the cheek is black and looks sharpened is due to Sanji's jaw is outlined white, to keep his features from getting muddled in the black that's on his bare neck and his cheek. It's the same art technique Oda uses to differentiate hardening from the general background noise.

 

[kkck]

The excess shading has nothing to do with the gag. The closest thing he has to that sort of thing is when he's angry. However, when that happens, he's on fire and all of his hair is standing up. Not just one single strand that's not even standing up.

Sanji's hair is normal. That's the shading on his cheek making it look like it's longer and sharper than it should be. And the reason the cheek is black and looks sharpened is due to Sanji's jaw is outlined white, to keep his features from getting muddled in the black that's on his bare neck and his cheek. It's the same art technique Oda uses to differentiate hardening from the general background noise.

Ok, lets try this again:

That's very clearly just sanji's hair, not hardening going on there. It's not even like that's the only hair tip that's suddenly black, the hair on the back of his head is also like that. I suppose it's not impossible to harden your gag hair tips but it's an inherently pointless thing to do...

 

[HereNThere]

Ok, lets try this again:

That's very clearly just sanji's hair, not hardening going on there. It's not even like that's the only hair tip that's suddenly black, the hair on the back of his head is also like that. I suppose it's not impossible to harden your gag hair tips but it's an inherently pointless thing to do...

Your link's broken.

There's a difference between what's going on with his cheek and the basic black outline on the back of his head. There are a few panels of Sanji drawn much smaller in that very same chapter that is on model, features and hair included. And even if you want to argue his cheek, there is still his neck, which clearly shows it. It follows the same pattern of how hardening is drawn. And again, hardening is shown as a solid black with white highlights and outlines, while shadows and other forms of shading are shown as hatched lines.

It doesn't seem like I'll be able to convince you otherwise though, so we can call it here.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

why do we always need to zoom in to see sanji using hardening?

 

[kkck]

That's pretty much it... you zoom in, enhance the image like they do in dumb tv shows where enhancing images isn't fictional mumbo jumbo, squint a lot, maybe do a drug or two and maybe then sanji has a black smudge that looks like hardened haki but is actually just gag hair...

 

[King Moe]

That's pretty much it... you zoom in, enhance the image like they do in dumb tv shows where enhancing images isn't fictional mumbo jumbo, squint a lot, maybe do a drug or two and maybe then sanji has a black smudge that looks like hardened haki but is actually just gag hair...

Again, nah not the case whether zoom or not, you defending about Luffy on his foot issues, so you shouldn't denied in similar case with Sanji. Basic COA can't get you far in a fight and doubt Sanji haven't trained on raising his level more. Plus reason also we don't see hardening effect is more due he wears black pants and flames obscure Hardening, but he still use it.

Spoiler

Plus from latest spoilers, it's illogical to say he has it when who he is facing next

 

[kkck]

Again, nah not the case whether zoom or not, you defending about Luffy on his foot issues, so you shouldn't denied in similar case with Sanji. Basic COA can't get you far in a fight and doubt Sanji haven't trained on raising his level more. Plus reason also we don't see hardening effect is more due he wears black pants and flames obscure Hardening, but he still use it.

Spoiler

Plus from latest spoilers, it's illogical to say he has it when who he is facing next

I think we are arguing slightly different things. You are saying that sanji by now probably already has it and has simply yet to show it. I am saying that sanji has never actually shown it. And by extension at least during the previous arcs he probably had not achieved it yet.

Also, oda could easily show hardening in spite of the fire and black suit... Hardening uses a very specific shade of blade which sanji has never evidenced.

 

[King Moe]

I think we are arguing slightly different things. You are saying that sanji by now probably already has it and has simply yet to show it. I am saying that sanji has never actually shown it. And by extension at least during the previous arcs he probably had not achieved it yet.

Also, oda could easily show hardening in spite of the fire and black suit... Hardening uses a very specific shade of blade which sanji has never evidenced.

Nah, color is hard to do that when your wearing darken pants and plus flaming, but it doesn't remove the face he can use it. Just hard to see given his color scheme and plus if Anime give COA Hardening and Oda never complain on that, push more he has it, but didn't have right clothing to showcase it clearly.

As Artist, it's not as easy as you think to show shades through texture like that. Agree to Disagree on this, but you shouldn't think it always Basic lvl he knows at this point. It wouldn't get you far like that.

 

[kkck]

Clearly part of my issues with sanji is that his lack of hardening is a major limitation to his growth and strength. And realistically speaking he does continue to lag behind haki using crewmembers. Still, there is not a frame in the manga that actually proves haki has hardening.

 

[King Moe]

Clearly part of my issues with sanji is that his lack of hardening is a major limitation to his growth and strength. And realistically speaking he does continue to lag behind haki using crewmembers. Still, there is not a frame in the manga that actually proves haki has hardening.

He does have it, but again color scheme makes it hard to show. Hardening is black and his pants and shoes are black, so hard to do shade to make it visible seen on layers of that, but doesn't mean he doesn't have it as Anime does help shows he does in clearer full colors. Plus flames can obscure it as well. We can agree to disagree on this then, but since he be one of the major forces in this war, I highly doubt he still has same Basic COA and didn't train to raise his Haki up as it won't be enough to face stronger enemies this time around. Given evidence around, he does have it and it gotten stronger given training he done to prepare for the Fire Festival.

I do get what you mean as on clearer showing, but just saying reason why it was hard to see on him more so color scheme for that.

 

[kkck]

He does have it, but again color scheme makes it hard to show. Hardening is black and his pants and shoes are black, so hard to do shade to make it visible seen on layers of that, but doesn't mean he doesn't have it as Anime does help shows he does in clearer full colors. Plus flames can obscure it as well. We can agree to disagree on this then, but since he be one of the major forces in this war, I highly doubt he still has same Basic COA and didn't train to raise his Haki up as it won't be enough to face stronger enemies this time around. Given evidence around, he does have it and it gotten stronger given training he done to prepare for the Fire Festival.

I do get what you mean as on clearer showing, but just saying reason why it was hard to see on him more so color scheme for that.

I mean, there is literally zero evidence that he has used it but it's invisible to us readers... What you are saying is impossible to actually prove or even evidence without an outright statement from a character.

 

[goldb]

I thought Sanji had used haki against Judge?

 

[kkck]

I thought Sanji had used haki against Judge?

Yeah, but the discussion is about whether sanji has used or has hardening.

 

[goldb]

He probably does have it, but we've not seen him use it in a fight; simply because he hasn't had enough opportunities to showcase it. Now reading back your posts I can see the debate and to be fair, I didn't initially think that particular scene of him block Kanjuro rain ink was hardening but a lot of people have pointed to it, which is fair enough. That particular instance remains inconclusive and I loathe instances where I have to zoom in to confirm something lol.

We'll get confirmation in the coming chapters; it would be really weird at this point if he couldn't use it, especially with the calibre of opponents.