Discussion Haki Thread

[Brandish μ]

For all ongoing Haki discussion, please post here.

 

[HereNThere]

I don’t watch the movies so I can’t discuss that but they’re not canon so regardless so it doesn’t really matter.


That’s the thing does Hardening isn’t a separate term that’s just what it does. Take weapons for example. All Haki does is harden them, no chips on the blade arrows flying through rocks like butter etc. They aren’t special techniques for weapons he just went a different way with it. Notice how no one ever says Koka since it was first introduced. Because Oda went a different way with it.

Haki was just something that wasn’t fully fleshed conceptually out when introduced and things changed as they went. It’s really that simple

Like I said, the film isn't canon, but the character and their backstory were created by Oda just like Shiki was. So if Oda created the character with that specific epithet due to his skill in Hardening, I'd say that's confirmation that haki can be seen.

Hardening is its own term. That's why we call it hardening to this day. When Luffy first used the skill it was given the naming convention of Armament: Hardening. The colon indicates that it's a subset or off shoot from the basic armament type.


Your last paragraph though, I greatly agree with.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

You JUST claimed that invisible Haki is the weakest version of it. Using the “weakling” Tashigi and her non-visible Haki as a reference. So why is Kaido dodging the weakest version of Haki that you could possibly put out if it’s being implied to being the ACTUAL strongest?

Not rocket science.

It's Advanced Armament Haki being used in conjunction with Invisible Armament and Fire.

The idea it's an inconsistency when it's been shown in the Manga for 500+ chapters is laughable.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 8, 2021, Original Post Date: Sep 8, 2021 ---

Hardening is its own term. That's why we call it hardening to this day. When Luffy first used the skill it was given the naming convention of Armament: Hardening. The colon indicates that it's a subset or off shoot from the basic armament type.

He just doesn't know.

He thinks something that happens over and over and over again is an inconsistency as opposed to being something purposely done.

It would be like seeing DF users get weakened by Seastone for 1,000 chapters and then call it an inconsistency.

Inconsistencies happen rarely, and if something isn't rare, light bulbs should start firing and questioning whether it's actually not an inconsistency. Imagine reading a book with a thousand plus chapters, seeing that characters that eat weird fruits gaining special powers, and then concluding it's an inconsistency and that fruits don't give special powers, they must have had it from the start.
I really don't know what to say.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 8, 2021 ---

Well, the reason is that franky all through fishman island and punk hazard franky had zero context of haki in general.

I call bullshit on that.

He knew Haki makes it possible to touch Logias.

Is it that hard to be told "hey dude, Haki is black, that's the common feature of Haki".

He saw the biggest black fist he'd ever seen, and didn't know it was Haki? Common, that's clearly BS. I feel like that would be the most noticeable thing.

When has a non-Haki user ever known someone was using Haki besides the fact they touched a Logia which is the only visible evidence of Haki for non-users?

Rayleigh's hands were black when he removed Camie's collar, but no one said anything about black hands. Would think they'd at least say "hey, Luffy's hands are black like Rayleigh's"... no one made that connection?

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 8, 2021 ---

Hell, how the hell.... do the SHs not mention why Luffy has a Black Fist that's bigger than the Sunny when he was fighting Surume? Hell a joke could even be inserted there.

I think it's abundantly clear that Haki is invisible, that's how Rayleigh and Hyogoro who went on to make his own hands visibly black explains Haki.

Invisible > Proceeds to show a black fist. I think it's clear the shading is just depicting a level of Haki. Hyogoro just said it's invisible in 1 panel and then shows this.

As much flack as I give Oda for Wano, I don't think Oda's that stupid.

 

[Fox666]

If Haki was invisible, wouldn't Mihawk words here not make sense here?

There's a double meaning in Mihawk words, he's talking about both hardening and black blades, but still if hardening is not visible it doesn't make sense...

Hardening is its own term. That's why we call it hardening to this day. When Luffy first used the skill it was given the naming convention of Armament: Hardening. The colon indicates that it's a subset or off shoot from the basic armament type.

Isn't that only in the English version?

While I think hardening is a subset of Armament, there's no colon in the original Japanese version.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

There's a double meaning in Mihawk words, he's talking about both hardening and black blades, but still if hardening is not visible it doesn't make sense...

Characteristic of a Black Blade: Hardness.

Vista's blade is not literally black, but it's stated he can make his blade into a Black Blade like Vista and Zoro.

Meaning he can coat his Blade in Haki which makes it... HARD.

Hardness being? The characteristic of Black blades. So, when Mihawk is saying any Sword can become a Black blade, he's just saying any Blade can become Hard by imbuing it with Armament Haki which makes things hard.

Armament Haki on Swords = Black blade.

A blade becoming like Shusui physically black, that's something that's not yet been explained.

Haki's not Black, it's just Hard.

 

[HereNThere]

Isn't that only in the English version?

While I think hardening is a subset of Armament, there's no colon in the original Japanese version.

I mean, I'm not entirely sure how that sort of punctuation works with Kanji, so I wouldn't be able to tell you. I have to imagine it's not one to one though.

 

[Moss Green]

Not rocket science.


It's Advanced Armament Haki being used in conjunction with Invisible Armament and Fire.

The idea it's an inconsistency when it's been shown in the Manga for 500+ chapters is laughable.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 8, 2021, Original Post Date: Sep 8, 2021 ---

He just doesn't know.

He thinks something that happens over and over and over again is an inconsistency as opposed to being something purposely done.

Except AdCoA is black we’ve already seen him use it and his hands are black. When he’s training, when he removes Hyogoro’s cuffs, throughout both fights with Kaido.

This is my point entirely Oda himself is not consistent with Haki whatsoever and people tie themselves in knots and make up rules and Haki combinations that literally don’t make sense and have no basis WHATSOEVER in what we’ve been told about Haki. I mean suggesting he’s “combining versions” of CoA just prove you don’t even really understand how CoA works.

See this is where you prove how out of touch you really are. They’ve said “Color of Arms: Hardening” for over 500+ chapters? Show me a panel from Wano then. Or Dressrosa. Whole Cake Island maybe? Anything from after Fishman island where anyone says Hardening. And then once you say “they don’t have to say it that’s redundant” then I’ll say show me when any character uses a named attack but doesn’t say the name. That’s the point. Oda had ideas about Haki and how he showed it then abandoned them. The inconsistencies aren’t different versions, they’re just inconsistencies

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Except AdCoA is black

AdCoA really is Black to colour blind people maybe.

Sure bud.

 

[Nie Li]

AdCoA really is Black to colour blind people maybe.

Sure bud.

As Moss Green said in his post, in most instances of "aCoA" being used the user's hands have blackened, and your way of countering that fact is by showing a panel of Luffy using aCoA without blackening? Without realizing it, you're supporting his point of how inconsistent CoA's shading has been through the manga.

Two out of three times that aCoA has been used to break someone out of exploding cuffs by using internal destruction, the hands have blackened, which makes the third time a likely mistake.

I don't think Oda cares half as much as we do about the consistency of hardening.

 

[Moss Green]

AdCoA really is Black to colour blind people maybe.

Sure bud.

Do you realize how embarrassing this is for you to say? You’re going to become so much smarter one day once you actually try to understand rather than just “be right”. Like I said earlier you mostly add nothing to discussions because you’re not actually reading anything anyone says you’re here to read your own posts

As Moss Green said in his post, in most instances of "aCoA" being used the user's hands have blackened, and your way of countering that fact is by showing a panel of Luffy using aCoA without blackening? Without realizing it, you're supporting his point of how inconsistent CoA's shading has been through the manga.

Two out of three times that aCoA has been used to break someone out of exploding cuffs by using internal destruction, the hands have blackened, which makes the third time a likely mistake.

I don't think Oda cares half as much as we do about the consistency of hardening.

Poetry

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

AdCoA is black we’ve already seen him use it and his hands are black.

You can say as much nonsense as you want.

Fact is Advanced CoA is not solely Black. It can be done without Black Armament coating.

Read the Manga.

 

[Moss Green]

You can say as much nonsense as you want.

Fact is Advanced CoA is not solely Black. It can be done without Black Armament coating.

Read the Manga.

Still adding nothing of substance. Quoting one sentence of an entire post. Shameless. But I’ll keep going

So what’s the basis for it being both black and white? You’ve already asserted that the non shaded version is the “weakest version” of Haki. As if “versions” of Haki exist in the first place. ACoA is a technique for moving extra Haki around the quality of the Haki changes is no way shape or form.

So what is YOUR explanation for why this is the case? My assertion is that Oda and the manga are just not consistent. The position you took is not supported by the very manga you’re telling me to read.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Quoting one sentence of an entire post. Shameless. But I’ll keep going

Except AdCoA is black we’ve already seen him use it and his hands are black. When he’s training, when he removes Hyogoro’s cuffs, throughout both fights with Kaido.

What's shameful is how silly your take is, lol.

Even claimed throughout his fight with Kaido, it was only black?

You outright said Advanced CoA is Black, well, you're not well read, it obviously isn't, lol.

So what is YOUR explanation for why this is the case? My assertion is that Oda and the manga are just not consistent. The position you took is not supported by the very manga you’re telling me to read.

The idea Oda and his assistants aren't consistent is a border-line stupid take. The idea a Mangaka who draws for a living, weekly... is too lazy to shade Black on a fist... when they draw detailed dragons, detailed scenery, huge cover spreads... can't just shade black? That's a dumb take.

Every volume, Oda goes through the manga chapters released and makes/correct mistakes for the volume version. This is done for every volume. The idea he does all this and forgot to shade Haki which would have been glaringly obvious? Daftest reason I've ever read, an inconsistency? lol?

Someone with this much attention to detail who would actually make the effort to change the position of a bandage just to make sure it's accurate... forgot to shade black in all the volumes? But doesn't mind fixing words, drawing bandages, adding details people wouldn't care about... but forgot to add black shading? That's the dumbest take I've ever read, lol.

Add's the tiniest details no one cares about because he's clearly someone who takes his art pretty seriously, but forgot to do the easiest thing which is shading a fist black? Common sense would be, there's a difference between Shaded and Unshaded, lol.

Again, like I said, you're poorly read. Sai of the Happou Navy was only able to use Invisible Haki, and the moment he used Shaded Haki, he was promoted as leader of the Happou Navy. He Awakened his Haki potential. Of course, you wouldn't know that.

So, Oda is so stupid that he can mention someone is using Haki, but forget to shade it Black since Haki can only be Black.. in the very same page???

Same fight, but the Sword isn't shaded Black, Oda and his editors must be so dumb and inconsistent, lol.

You're hilarious, stay delusional bud.

Same chapter, Oda has Luffy hit Caesar without shaded fists and with shaded fists, but of course, you're so well read that you conclude the unshaded was merely Oda being inconsistent, lol. He just got tired mid chapter and thought fuck it, can't bother to shade page one, I'll shade the fist in page 8 though? No one would notice, lol.

States that he uses Haki, but of course, Oda's attention to detail is so bad that he absolutely forgets to shade the Axe Black and leaves it unshaded in the very same page, he was too lazy and forgetful to shade because Haki is Always Black? lol. No such thing as Unshaded Armament?

Luffy says the Armament augmenting Cracker's shield is too hard, not shaded black, but Luffy's fist is shaded black, but Oda forgot to shade the shield Black, but not Luffy's fist because of inconsistencies? Lol, this is terrible logic at its finest.

Don't expect you to grasp it, but Common sense would be, there's a difference between Shaded and Unshaded, lol. The absurdity it takes to call this an inconsistency with the level of attention to detail concluded as he forgot to add shading? Even Volume changes don't highlight a lack of shading in scenes where Haki was used, yet you conclude it's an inconsistency? I have been humoured.
As the saying goes, birds of a feather certainly flock together.

 

[Nie Li]

Still adding nothing of substance. Quoting one sentence of an entire post. Shameless. But I’ll keep going

So what’s the basis for it being both black and white? You’ve already asserted that the non shaded version is the “weakest version” of Haki. As if “versions” of Haki exist in the first place. ACoA is a technique for moving extra Haki around the quality of the Haki changes is no way shape or form.

So what is YOUR explanation for why this is the case? My assertion is that Oda and the manga are just not consistent. The position you took is not supported by the very manga you’re telling me to read.

Notice that he didn't answer your question to him; he just mocked you again and repeated that "aCoA is not black because in these two panels I'm handpicking it wasn't black (even though it was in most)", offering no explanation to why sometimes it's black and sometimes it's not if it's not an inconsistency. Just agree to disagree with him.


Also, @Hannibal Psyche, can you start debating things without calling people and their takes colorblind, hilarious, delusional, silly, laughable, etc? You're not always right, all the talks on this thread are highly hypothetical and there's no need for that toxicity. With a different attitude, you may notice your debates going better. Thank you.

 

[Moss Green]

What's shameful is how silly your take is, lol.

Even claimed throughout his fight with Kaido, it was only black?

You outright said Advanced CoA is Black, well, you're not well read, it obviously isn't, lol.



The idea Oda and his assistants aren't consistent is a border-line stupid take. The idea a Mangaka who draws for a living, weekly... is too lazy to shade Black on a fist... when they draw detailed dragons, detailed scenery, huge cover spreads... can't just shade black? That's a dumb take.

Every volume, Oda goes through the manga chapters released and makes/correct mistakes for the volume version. This is done for every volume. The idea he does all this and forgot to shade Haki which would have been glaringly obvious? Daftest reason I've ever read, an inconsistency? lol?

Someone with this much attention to detail who would actually make the effort to change the position of a bandage just to make sure it's accurate... forgot to shade black in all the volumes? But doesn't mind fixing words, drawing bandages, adding details people wouldn't care about... but forgot to add black shading? That's the dumbest take I've ever read, lol.

Add's the tiniest details no one cares about because he's clearly someone who takes his art pretty seriously, but forgot to do the easiest thing which is shading a fist black? Common sense would be, there's a difference between Shaded and Unshaded, lol.

Again, like I said, you're poorly read. Sai of the Happou Navy was only able to use Invisible Haki, and the moment he used Shaded Haki, he was promoted as leader of the Happou Navy. He Awakened his Haki potential. Of course, you wouldn't know that.

So, Oda is so stupid that he can mention someone is using Haki, but forget to shade it Black since Haki can only be Black.. in the very same page???

Same fight, but the Sword isn't shaded Black, Oda and his editors must be so dumb and inconsistent, lol.

You're hilarious, stay delusional bud.

Same chapter, Oda has Luffy hit Caesar without shaded fists and with shaded fists, but of course, you're so well read that you conclude the unshaded was merely Oda being inconsistent, lol. He just got tired mid chapter and thought fuck it, can't bother to shade page one, I'll shade the fist in page 8 though? No one would notice, lol.

States that he uses Haki, but of course, Oda's attention to detail is so bad that he absolutely forgets to shade the Axe Black and leaves it unshaded in the very same page, he was too lazy and forgetful to shade because Haki is Always Black? lol. No such thing as Unshaded Armament?

Luffy says the Armament augmenting Cracker's shield is too hard, not shaded black, but Luffy's fist is shaded black, but Oda forgot to shade the shield Black, but not Luffy's fist because of inconsistencies? Lol, this is terrible logic at its finest.

Don't expect you to grasp it, but Common sense would be, there's a difference between Shaded and Unshaded, lol. The absurdity it takes to call this an inconsistency with the level of attention to detail concluded as he forgot to add shading? Even Volume changes don't highlight a lack of shading in scenes where Haki was used, yet you conclude it's an inconsistency? I have been humoured.
As the saying goes, birds of a feather certainly flock together.

I’m going to state this for you clearly so that you have an opportunity to address it. We AGREE that the manga has shaded and unshaded instances of Haki you don’t need to post panels to show me that it’s the entire premise of our discussion. The question is why they both exist.

Now I’ve asked you a few times to provide an explanation for how the same two people to could use the same technique but one person’s is shaded and the other’s isn’t. You didn’t respond but posted the same panels. Cowardice

I’ve asked you to explain why throughout Luffy’s fight he’s used the strongest Haki techniques possible and they’re not shaded. You called the unshaded “version” the most basic version. The version used by the “weak” Tashigi. I’ve asked how these two things can both be true. You didn’t respond and reposted the same panels. Cowardice.

Now I’ll ask you one more time….and if you lack the intelligence to form an opinion of your own just say so. HOW (I know THAT Oda’s drawn it I’m asking YOU, Hannibal Psyche, HOW) can you claim that the unshaded version of Haki is the basic version yet Luffy’s most advanced CoA technique, internal destruction, can be both shaded (at the prison) and unshaded (taking off Yamato’s cuffs. I know THAT these panels exist. I’m asking you how they do.

In fact, here let me give you your options to make it easy. All you have to do is pick one and I’ll be satisfied

Option A: The unshaded and shaded versions are “different levels” of the same CoA flow technique where the unshaded is a “weaker” version of the shaded version
(This literally makes zero sense I really hope you pick this one please pick this one)

Option B: Unshaded and shaded Haki are the same there is no difference in level between them Oda just chooses one or the other
(actually no wait pick this one)

So there you have it just pick one! If you don’t respond to this post I’ll have my answer

 

[Fox666]

What's shameful is how silly your take is, lol.

Even claimed throughout his fight with Kaido, it was only black?

You outright said Advanced CoA is Black, well, you're not well read, it obviously isn't, lol.



The idea Oda and his assistants aren't consistent is a border-line stupid take. The idea a Mangaka who draws for a living, weekly... is too lazy to shade Black on a fist... when they draw detailed dragons, detailed scenery, huge cover spreads... can't just shade black? That's a dumb take.

Every volume, Oda goes through the manga chapters released and makes/correct mistakes for the volume version. This is done for every volume. The idea he does all this and forgot to shade Haki which would have been glaringly obvious? Daftest reason I've ever read, an inconsistency? lol?

Someone with this much attention to detail who would actually make the effort to change the position of a bandage just to make sure it's accurate... forgot to shade black in all the volumes? But doesn't mind fixing words, drawing bandages, adding details people wouldn't care about... but forgot to add black shading? That's the dumbest take I've ever read, lol.

Add's the tiniest details no one cares about because he's clearly someone who takes his art pretty seriously, but forgot to do the easiest thing which is shading a fist black? Common sense would be, there's a difference between Shaded and Unshaded, lol.

Again, like I said, you're poorly read. Sai of the Happou Navy was only able to use Invisible Haki, and the moment he used Shaded Haki, he was promoted as leader of the Happou Navy. He Awakened his Haki potential. Of course, you wouldn't know that.

So, Oda is so stupid that he can mention someone is using Haki, but forget to shade it Black since Haki can only be Black.. in the very same page???

Same fight, but the Sword isn't shaded Black, Oda and his editors must be so dumb and inconsistent, lol.

You're hilarious, stay delusional bud.

Same chapter, Oda has Luffy hit Caesar without shaded fists and with shaded fists, but of course, you're so well read that you conclude the unshaded was merely Oda being inconsistent, lol. He just got tired mid chapter and thought fuck it, can't bother to shade page one, I'll shade the fist in page 8 though? No one would notice, lol.

States that he uses Haki, but of course, Oda's attention to detail is so bad that he absolutely forgets to shade the Axe Black and leaves it unshaded in the very same page, he was too lazy and forgetful to shade because Haki is Always Black? lol. No such thing as Unshaded Armament?

Luffy says the Armament augmenting Cracker's shield is too hard, not shaded black, but Luffy's fist is shaded black, but Oda forgot to shade the shield Black, but not Luffy's fist because of inconsistencies? Lol, this is terrible logic at its finest.

Don't expect you to grasp it, but Common sense would be, there's a difference between Shaded and Unshaded, lol. The absurdity it takes to call this an inconsistency with the level of attention to detail concluded as he forgot to add shading? Even Volume changes don't highlight a lack of shading in scenes where Haki was used, yet you conclude it's an inconsistency? I have been humoured.
As the saying goes, birds of a feather certainly flock together.

Dear Hannibal Psyque,

You do not need to spam the entire thread with images while making a simple point

You do not need to add a gratuitous offense to every sentence

Still adding nothing of substance. Quoting one sentence of an entire post. Shameless. But I’ll keep going

So what’s the basis for it being both black and white? You’ve already asserted that the non shaded version is the “weakest version” of Haki. As if “versions” of Haki exist in the first place. ACoA is a technique for moving extra Haki around the quality of the Haki changes is no way shape or form.

So what is YOUR explanation for why this is the case? My assertion is that Oda and the manga are just not consistent. The position you took is not supported by the very manga you’re telling me to read.

I believe there are different levels of Haki

Also, has anyone used invisible Haki for defense?

If I'm not mistaken, Haki is an energy that increases the damage of an attack, while hardening gives the body a steel-like property

For example, when Zoro and the others were trying to stop the birdcage, they used hardening because blocking the near-invencible Bird Cage could most likely damage their swords

 

[Moss Green]

I believe there are different levels of Haki

Also, has anyone used invisible Haki for defense?

If I'm not mistaken, Haki is an energy that increases the damage of an attack, while hardening gives the body a steel-like property

For example, when Zoro and the others were trying to stop the birdcage, they used hardening because blocking the near-invencible Bird Cage could most likely damage their swords

Apparently yes, up there in HP’s panel vomit he posts a pic of the Luffy v Cracker fight in the early stages and Luffy remarks about how strong the biscuit fighters armament Haki is to break through and they are absolutely not shaded.

See is what I meant when I said we make up a lot of rules to try to explain away the inconsistencies that have no basis in the thorough explanation given to us about how Haki works. You’re making a distinction between Haki and Hardening to try and explain how the “two versions” could be used the way they are when you already know they’re the same thing

 

[Fox666]

Apparently yes, up there in HP’s panel vomit he posts a pic of the Luffy v Cracker fight in the early stages and Luffy remarks about how strong the biscuit fighters armament Haki is to break through and they are absolutely not shaded.

That's a good example

Then I guess there's no real difference between invisible and black CoA

Black is just an higher level, or "density" of CoA

 

[Moss Green]

That's a good example

Then I guess there's no real difference between invisible and black CoA

Black is just an higher level, or "density" of CoA

Those two sentences can’t be true at the same time

And there is zero mention of density regarding Haki in the manga. Again, you’re making it up

 

[Nie Li]

Those two sentences can’t be true at the same time

And there is zero mention of density regarding Haki in the manga. Again, you’re making it up

Density of haki exists, since that's what creates emission haki in the first place (flowing more haki from other parts of the body into a single part) but since sometines emission haki isn't drawn with blackening, it shouldn't be the cause of it.

The black haki stuff is just too undefined and it doesn't look like Oda plans on making things clearer.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

That's a good example

Then I guess there's no real difference between invisible and black CoA

Black is just an higher level, or "density" of CoA

Another character's Invisible Haki can be superior to another Character's Hardened Armament.

Luffy's Invisible Armament is inferior to his own Black Hardened Armament.

His Hardened Armament is inferior to Cracker's Hardened Armament.

Haki between characters aren't necessarily equal.

Katakuri's Armament was superior to Luffy's Armament.

Kaido's Invisible Armament is probably or was probably Harder than Luffy's Hardened Armament.

It's really not difficult to understand.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 13, 2021, Original Post Date: Sep 13, 2021 ---

You’re making a distinction between Haki and Hardening to try and explain how the “two versions” could be used the way they are when you already know they’re the same thing

Your logic is pretty bad.

It's like saying there's no difference between a shot gun and a pistol just because they do the same thing, lol.

Hardening is simply an enhanced version of the Invisible unshaded Haki, lol.

What you're unable to comprehend is the Haki between characters aren't equal, there's this concept called superiority which you're clearly not aware of.

Not Rocket Science bud, Cracker's Invisible Haki is simply superior to Luffy's Hardened Armamet. Cracker's Hardened Armament is nonetheless inferior to his own Invisible Armament, it's not that difficult to understand, lol.