Discussion Haki Thread

[Brandish μ]

For all ongoing Haki discussion, please post here.

 

[Moss Green]

Hardening is simply an enhanced version of the Invisible unshaded Haki, lol.

Cracker's Hardened Armament is nonetheless inferior to his own Invisible Armament, it's not that difficult to understand, lol.

Option A huh? Yet you immediately contradict yourself for me, thanks!

Density of haki exists, since that's what creates emission haki in the first place (flowing more haki from other parts of the body into a single part) but since sometines emission haki isn't drawn with blackening, it shouldn't be the cause of it.

The black haki stuff is just too undefined and it doesn't look like Oda plans on making things clearer.

Sure I can accept that. The technique explains the density change. Nothing explains a change between “invisible” or “hardening”. Why were Luffy’s hands “hard” in the prison and “softer?” “less hard” for Yamato. No one can even attempt to answer that question without posting a panel saying “because it is” like a child.

I’m fine with it being undefined. The hill I’ve chosen to die on is that “invisible Haki” and “hardening” are distinctions that have been made due to that lack of definition. When they are in fact the same

 

[kkck]

Funny that people think invisible haki an hardening are the same even though this is a series where turning a blade permanently black is a major plot point... And the hardening used for limbs is literally the same used for blades. The fact is that invisible haki and hardening are different, hardening is visible to the naked eye and it's patently absurd that this discussion is even happening.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Option A huh? Yet you immediately contradict yourself for me, thanks!

Lol, meant the other way round.

Cracker's Hardened is superior to his own Invisible Armament.

Luffy's Hardening is inferior to Cracker's Invisible.

It's really not that hard to understand and is pretty straight forward.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 13, 2021, Original Post Date: Sep 13, 2021 ---

hardening is visible to the naked eye and it's patently absurd that this discussion is even happening.

So, why has no one commented on anyone's body turning black?

Why didn't Franky know Luffy was a Haki user despite the fact he used Hardening against Surume?

 

[kkck]

So, why has no one commented on anyone's body turning black?

Why didn't Franky know Luffy was a Haki user despite the fact he used Hardening against Surume?

This is a series where people turn into fire or a small child can use colors to shatter other people's mood. Someone's arm turning black without any context whatsoever is the least interesting thing that was happening when the strawhats confronted the kraken. And even then, how does it make sense that hardening makes blades literally black but when the same same technique is used on limbs it's only a visual cue for readers?

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

This is a series where people turn into fire or a small child can use colors to shatter other people's mood.

And that has nothing to do with the fact no one has said or indicated Hardened Haki is visible.

Someone's arm turning black without any context whatsoever is the least interesting thing that was happening when the strawhats confronted the kraken.

That's an absurd excuse.

When Luffy transforms, or when his body starts giving off flames, or when he becomes bouncy, all of that gets pointed out.

If Haki was Black and Visible, Franky would have realised Luffy was a Haki user, surely that much is common sense.

They've not seen each other for 2 years, surely, noticing that your Caucasian captain just grew a black arm... literally no comment and just ignore that and claim it's not interesting? Your argument makes no sense. That's the definition of contrast right there, it's too outstanding to ignore especially when it's a giant fist.

And even then, how does it make sense that hardening makes blades literally black but when the same same technique is used on limbs it's only a visual cue for readers?

Not sure where you read anyone saying Hardening is a visual cue for limbs, but not for Blades.

Hardening is simply a visual cue whether it's for blades or limbs.

 

[kkck]

And that has nothing to do with the fact no one has said or indicated Hardened Haki is visible.



That's an absurd excuse.

When Luffy transforms, or when his body starts giving off flames, or when he becomes bouncy, all of that gets pointed out.

If Haki was Black and Visible, Franky would have realised Luffy was a Haki user, surely that much is common sense.



Not sure where you read anyone saying Hardening is a visual cue for limbs, but not for Blades.

Hardening is simply a visual cue whether it's for blades or limbs.

But... franky didn't know about haki all the way through punk hazard. So why would he know the meaning of a luffy turning black?

Wait, so you are saying black blades aren't literally black?

 

[Moss Green]

Funny that people think invisible haki an hardening are the same even though this is a series where turning a blade permanently black is a major plot point... And the hardening used for limbs is literally the same used for blades. The fact is that invisible haki and hardening are different, hardening is visible to the naked eye and it's patently absurd that this discussion is even happening.

You don’t have to subtweet me baby I won’t bite

If your evidence that Haki is visible because black blades exist you’ve painted yourself into a corner. Only 2 exist in the entire history of One Piece and are thusly noted for their appearance, as opposed to every fight where someone’s sword would be black frequently in the New World. Wouldn’t someone confuse someone’s sword for being a “black blade” just by seeing a part of a fight? It sounds like you’re using 2 exceptions to make a rule. You’re working backwards. Haven’t I said this already?

You can’t answer that either though can you? Mostly because you don’t know how a sword becomes black you’re just assuming based on a non-explanation by Hitetsu

Hardening for limbs is the same as it is for blades??? So the 2 strongest swordmen in history have made their blades black…..Why have none of the strongest hand to hand fighters in history turned their limbs permanently black?

Like please stop telling me I’m wrong “just because”. I’ve actually thought this through and clearly none of you have

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

But... franky didn't know about haki all the way through punk hazard. So why would he know the meaning of a luffy turning black?

So, you think Franky was told about what Haki does for this 2 years, but not told that Haki makes fists go black if it really did do that? Common now, that would be the most obvious detail to give to someone to let them know Haki was being used.

Wait, so you are saying black blades aren't literally black?

Wait, you do know when they say any Sword can become like a Black Blade... it simply means... any Sword can become hard simply by imbuing it with Armament? Black Blade is simply a reference to being Hard.

Vista's Armament Haki turns his Blade into a Black Blade... Black Blade is synonymous with Hardness. Not literally becoming Black.

In fact, if Armament Haki on a blade made Swords Black... Why isn't Vista's Blade Black here? Or even when he cuts Akainu?

Black Blades have 2 meanings:

• Blades literally turning Black like Shusui
• And when it's used with most Swordsmen, it just means they can imbue Armament on their Sword.

Even Tashigi can make her Swords Black Blades since she makes them hard with Haki, that's literally all it means.

 

[kkck]

You don’t have to subtweet me baby I won’t bite

If your evidence that Haki is visible because black blades exist you’ve painted yourself into a corner. Only 2 exist in the entire history of One Piece and are thusly noted for their appearance, as opposed to every fight where someone’s sword would be black frequently in the New World. Wouldn’t someone confuse someone’s sword for being a “black blade” just by seeing a part of a fight? It sounds like you’re using 2 exceptions to make a rule. You’re working backwards. Haven’t I said this already?

You can’t answer that either though can you? Mostly because you don’t know how a sword becomes black you’re just assuming based on a non-explanation by Hitetsu

Hardening for limbs is the same as it is for blades??? So the 2 strongest swordmen in history have made their blades black…..Why have none of the strongest hand to hand fighters in history turned their limbs permanently black?

Like please stop telling me I’m wrong “just because”. I’ve actually thought this through and clearly none of you have

Possibly? But that would probably be a newby mistake. Since otherwise they'd just see the blade turning black when the user applies hardening to it. When it comes to kokuto the series makes the point that those are blades that permanently turn black... Which only makes sense if other blades temporarily turn black.

Dunno, ask oda about limbs? All we know is that limbs in fact turn black, because that's what we seen, and sufficiently skilled armed combatants under still uncertain circumstances concerning skill can permanently turn their blades black.

 

[Fox666]

You guys stress too much over some magic that was poorly explained in a comic

Another character's Invisible Haki can be superior to another Character's Hardened Armament.

Luffy's Invisible Armament is inferior to his own Black Hardened Armament.

His Hardened Armament is inferior to Cracker's Hardened Armament.

Haki between characters aren't necessarily equal.

Katakuri's Armament was superior to Luffy's Armament.

Kaido's Invisible Armament is probably or was probably Harder than Luffy's Hardened Armament.

It's really not difficult to understand.

When someone is flexing his muscles, it would be an indication that he's putting more strength than normal

But an adult is still stronger than a child, even if he's relaxed and the child is using all of their strength

For example, when Vergo used CoA on his entire body, it would be an indication his Haki is stronger than ever before, but not necessarily stronger than Law's Haki

Another example is Gear 4 permanently black parts, which quickly drain Luffy's reserves

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

When it comes to kokuto the series makes the point that those are blades that permanently turn black... Which only makes sense if other blades temporarily turn black.

Baseless assumption there.

You're assuming that because you believe Hardening turns things Black, Swords become Kokuto Blades like Shusui and Yoru just because of that. If it were that simple, I don't think Zoro would be wondering how Blades become Black from Gyukimaru.

And the idea is flawed:

• If it was simply a matter of using Hardening, Roger's Blade, Shanks's blade, Whitebeard's Blade and Vista's Blade would all be Kokuto, but they're not. These guys are people with the strongest Haki. Even Oden's Blade is not Kokuto.

Again, the idea Hardening makes things Black makes 0 sense. If it literally turned Blades and Fists Black, why is it that pre-skip, there's no colouring if Hardening is physically Black?

 

[Moss Green]

Possibly? But that would probably be a newby mistake. Since otherwise they'd just see the blade turning black when the user applies hardening to it. When it comes to kokuto the series makes the point that those are blades that permanently turn black... Which only makes sense if other blades temporarily turn black.

Dunno, ask oda about limbs? All we know is that limbs in fact turn black, because that's what we seen, and sufficiently skilled armed combatants under still uncertain circumstances concerning skill can permanently turn their blades black.

It only makes sense if you insist on assuming
that they are physically turning black with regular CoA. Which would then contradict the concept of black blades. Once you stop assuming that then you’d realize that they are the only ones called black blades because they’re the first ones you can actually see are black. If Zoro’s blades turned black every time he used CoA why would he be asking about black blades in the first place he wouldn’t be so unaware of the mechanics of turning a blade black

And again, both can’t be true.

If no one is forging black arms and legs then by definition Oda is not drawing Haki the way you’re claiming he is. You can’t “lol idk” and shrug your shoulders it’s a simple fact you’re choosing to ignore because it’s easier for you to believe otherwise. And I’m ok with that btw you just have to admit it.

I understand it’s a tough concept to grasp because it’s shaded black for us readers so it’s easy to ignore the explanation we were already given. But we were already given an explanation……

 

[Fox666]

It only makes sense if you insist on assuming
that they are physically turning black with regular CoA. Which would then contradict the concept of black blades. Once you stop assuming that then you’d realize that they are the only ones called black blades because they’re the first ones you can actually see are black. If Zoro’s blades turned black every time he used CoA why would he be asking about black blades in the first place he wouldn’t be so unaware of the mechanics of turning a blade black

And again, both can’t be true.

If no one is forging black arms and legs then by definition Oda is not drawing Haki the way you’re claiming he is. You can’t “lol idk” and shrug your shoulders it’s a simple fact you’re choosing to ignore because it’s easier for you to believe otherwise. And I’m ok with that btw you just have to admit it.

I understand it’s a tough concept to grasp because it’s shaded black for us readers so it’s easy to ignore the explanation we were already given. But we were already given an explanation……

Are you roleplaying as Hannibal Psyque?

 

[Moss Green]

Are you roleplaying as Hannibal Psyque?

Haha it’s starting to feel that way isn’t it? But he stopped responding to me though because I put him in a pretzel.

But I’m asking simple questions that everyone’s either choosing not to answer or they can’t answer.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Haha it’s starting to feel that way isn’t it? But he stopped responding to me though because I put him in a pretzel.

But I’m asking simple questions that everyone’s either choosing not to answer or they can’t answer.

Haki has 2 forms:

• Shaded and Unshaded

• Shaded is Superior to Unshaded on an individual level. A person's Unshaded could have a value or 5 and Shaded a value of 10. Another character's could have an Unshaded value of 10 and an Shaded value of 15. In other words, Haki compared to other individuals isn't necessarily equal, it's nonetheless fact that the strongest form of Armament is the Shaded version.

In essence, you're unable to distinguish the difference between the strongest form of Armament and the dynamics/influence of personal talent, you're unable to meld both concepts together which really isn't complex.


There's a reason all characters that can use Shaded Armament have all their strongest attacks performed with Shaded Armament, and those that don't have it simply are limited to Unshaded Armament. Similarly, like the runner who is faster even with slippers on, if he wanted to run at his fastest, he'd have to wear running shoes and he'd perform a lot better.

 

[Moss Green]

Haki has 2 forms:

• Shaded and Unshaded

• Shaded is Superior to Unshaded on an individual level. A person's Unshaded could have a value or 5 and Shaded a value of 10. Another character's could have an Unshaded value of 10 and an Shaded value of 15. In other words, Haki compared to other individuals isn't necessarily equal, it's nonetheless fact that the strongest form of Armament is the Shaded version.

In essence, you're unable to distinguish the difference between the strongest form of Armament and the dynamics/influence of personal talent, you're unable to meld both concepts together which really isn't complex.


There's a reason all characters that can use Shaded Armament have all their strongest attacks performed with Shaded Armament, and those that don't have it simply are limited to Unshaded Armament. Similarly, like the runner who is faster even with slippers on, if he wanted to run at his fastest, he'd have to wear running shoes and he'd perform a lot better.

So when Luffy broke the explosive cuffs twice and one was shaded and the other wasn’t those were just different forms?

So you’re saying that the two forms of CoA run completely parallel to each other? From a regular punch all the way up ACoA you can use all Haki techniques on each “form” individually?

 

[kkck]

Here is a crackpot theory: luffy and rayleigh use hardening to break the cuffs to simply enhance their strength. Not necessarily because internal damage specifically requires hardening. Sure, they are using internal damage to break the cuffs but the next step still requires them to very quickly crush the cuffs and immediately throw them away. Hardening and internal damage seem like different branches of the armor haki skill tree, there is no obvious reason internal damage should require hardening. Much in the same way as you can project haki without hardening. And we know internal damage actually is a progression of projection.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

So when Luffy broke the explosive cuffs twice and one was shaded and the other wasn’t those were just different forms?

So you’re saying that the two forms of CoA run completely parallel to each other? From a regular punch all the way up ACoA you can use all Haki techniques on each “form” individually?

2 Forms of Armament:

• Unshaded
• Shaded - Superior to Unshaded on the individual level. Between individuals, x-person's unshaded could be superior to y-character's shaded, but x-person's unshaded will be inferior to his own shaded.

FLOW - the ability to move Haki:

• First Level of FLOW is moving Haki around your own body.
• Second level of FLOW is moving Haki into the body of objects, animals or people (internal damage).

What we're calling "Advanced Haki" is simply moving either of the forms of Armament Haki with Flow. It's the combination of 2 different skills.

Hyogoro was only able to use the First level of FLOW, Luffy could use both First and Second Level of FLOW.

Simply put, FLOW can be used with both Unshaded or Shaded Haki.

Difference between Shaded and Unshaded is simply quality. It's like the difference between Steel and Iron. Steel is superior to Iron. Steel would be Shaded Armament in this context, and Iron would be the Unshaded, weaker, but still effective depending on the situation.

 

[Moss Green]

2 Forms of Armament:

• Unshaded
• Shaded - Superior to Unshaded on the individual level. Between individuals, x-person's unshaded could be superior to y-character's shaded, but x-person's unshaded will be inferior to his own shaded.

FLOW - the ability to move Haki:

• First Level of FLOW is moving Haki around your own body.
• Second level of FLOW is moving Haki into the body of objects, animals or people (internal damage).

What we're calling "Advanced Haki" is simply moving either of the forms of Armament Haki with Flow. It's the combination of 2 different skills.

Hyogoro was only able to use the First level of FLOW, Luffy could use both First and Second Level of FLOW.

Simply put, FLOW can be used with both Unshaded or Shaded Haki.

Difference between Shaded and Unshaded is simply quality. It's like the difference between Steel and Iron. Steel is superior to Iron. Steel would be Shaded Armament in this context, and Iron would be the Unshaded, weaker, but still effective depending on the situation.

A fine explanation that clearly makes sense to you but unfortunately I can’t get behind it.

Oda legit forgot to show half of the flying 6 using Haki then had to retroactively confirm they had it in a vivre card. If you want to tell me a quarter of Kaido’s top force don’t know “hardening” (Sasaki & Black Maria) have at it. But that makes zero sense given the portrayals of 3 of their peers (Ulti, Page One & Who’s Who) and like half of Big Mom’s crew. Rayleigh told us it is the very basics of Haki and Kaido’s top force don’t know it? That’s stupid no matter what you tell yourself.

Haven’t seen Yamato use hardening yet despite going all out against Kaido even though she clearly knows ACoC. So she’s either holding back (doesn’t make sense) we can’t see it on the club (should have found a way around this by now), or she doesn’t know it (possible but unrealistic).

Either way, as I’ve said before I just don’t think Oda really pays close attention to this stuff so there are inconsistencies like everything I’ve mentioned abound. We’re obviously not going to agree on that so we can leave it here

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Oda legit forgot to show half of the flying 6 using Haki then had to retroactively confirm they had it in a vivre card.

Not really, We already knew from way back that Haki can be unshaded to begin with. They were high-ranked characters, we just assume they're using it anyway.

We never saw Tashigi using Shaded Armament, doesn't mean she didn't use Armament. Vivre Card confirms they were Armament users, so it just means they used the invisible unshaded version.

Only thing I'd say is it's not impressive that they're that highly ranked, and were unable to use a high form of Armament, but that's besides the point. Many strong people without Shaded (e.g. Sanji).

If you want to tell me a quarter of Kaido’s top force don’t know “hardening” (Sasaki & Black Maria) have at it.

Nothing for me to tell you, quite obvious they don't know hardening. Sanji can't use Hardening either, he can only use unshaded Armament.

Even in Joker's crew, only Pica and Vergo were hardening users. Haki in itself is a skill that only the strongest can use. Just because we see Luffy and Zoro use it often makes it unappreciated. As Rayleigh said pre-skip, not many people do.

Even King's Haki is 1 in a million, yet we can mention a dozen people with it. We're in a place where the concentration of talented people is dense, so of course it's going to look like everyone has it. It's simply the location.

Either way, they're all quite powerful. Don't even need Haki to be strong to begin with, sometimes just having a powerful DF is sufficient as we've seen with Crocodile and Moriah, so this isn't unprecedented. At the very least, they know Haki.

Rayleigh told us it is the very basics of Haki and Kaido’s top force don’t know it? That’s stupid no matter what you tell yourself.

Never argued that. Haki is still something only a few people can use. There's levels to the talent.

Fact is we're told all Tobi Roppo are Haki users. Whether you like how strong it is or not is subjective.

Factually, they're Haki users.

Even the Gorgon sisters who were Haki users lost to Luffy pre-skip when relative to now, he was extremely weak.

You can call it stupid, but it doesn't change the fact they're Haki users.

Haven’t seen Yamato use hardening yet despite going all out against Kaido even though she clearly knows ACoC. So she’s either holding back (doesn’t make sense) we can’t see it on the club (should have found a way around this by now), or she doesn’t know it (possible but unrealistic).

Her goal isn't to defeat Kaido,, she knows she can't. Her goal was to hold Kaido back. She's better off using only what's required to hold Kaido back as opposed to wasting it all and becoming pretty much useless. More so, she doesn't know when Luffy would return, she's smart for being conservative with her use when she knows she can't defeat Kaido either way.

Haki use comes at a cost, it gets wasted.

Even Luffy didn't use Hardening against Hody in instances where he knew it wouldn't make a difference.

Haki requires conservative use, there's a reason Luffy runs out of Haki whereas others do not do so. Luffy uses all of his Haki up constantly using Hardening and such. Even Law/Cavendish called Luffy's Haki usage excessive use.

Either way, as I’ve said before I just don’t think Oda really pays close attention to this stuff so there are inconsistencies like everything I’ve mentioned abound.

Disagree.

Some characters are limited in what they can do with Haki, (e.g. Sanji can only use Unshaded Armament atm).

Your take is not very objective. You still act like Invisible Armament isn't a thing, when you do acknowledge it, you'll understand most powerful confirmed users are probably using it without our knowledge.

In essence, it's not a matter of inconsistency, it's a matter of you just preferring better showcasing of when Armament is being used which I can agree with, but that's circumvented when the reality is Haki can also be invisible, so it's not an inconsistency if Oda's determined this is the level to which a character can use Armament.

We’re obviously not going to agree on that so we can leave it here

Sure.