Discussion How to determine a Powerful Pirate.

GodOfDestruction

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Strength is one of the key pieces in the world of One Piece.

How can we exactly determine if a pirate is exactly string or not?Considering they are the main fighters in the world.

Let's start with the Yonkou.
They are the four strongest pirates in the world. But how. Here's how.

Big Mom. She is known for her powerful military strength. Which has been shown in Luffy vs Cracker. If Luffy needed Gear 4th to take down a commander of a Yonkou it means a lot. This will come up later. But Big Mom has a huge pirate crew, including her DF and Weather powers she is a force to be reckoned with.

Blackbeard. He has two DF. Both are extremely powerful. You could say that they are the strongest in their class cause the Gura Gura no mi was said to be equal to a Logia. Blackbeard has engulfed an entire town and regurgitated it, but it wasn't completely destroyed. The fact that he could do it puts him on a high pedestal.

Shanks. Undetermined at the moment.

Kaido. Has been captured and defeated multiple times. No form of execution works on him and he was able to defeat Moriah's original crew. Adding his Zoan DF user army behind him. He is also pretty damn dangerous.

Next the Supernovas. I won't go into detail on everyone but here's what I have to say.

These guys all have bounties over 100,000,000 and are/were rookies. You don't get a bounty like that just by sailing. You have to do things. In Sabaody. They proved why they have such bounties. Then after the time skip they prove it more.

Okay now to part three.

Luffy needed Gear 4th to take down Cracker, but he also needed it for Doffy a real powerhouse.

I'm trying to figure out a pirate as an individual, how to determine they are ultimately strong.

Luffy is seen as a powerful pirate in our eyes. But he hasn't done things that others who are seen as powerful pirates done.

The Yonkou have military strength, and destructive abilities. Luffy has neither. He can cause destruction, but his default isn't as destructive.
Same for Law and some of the other Supernovas, Warlords, and pirates. But Luffy has defeated people with destructive power. So we can see Luffy as strong. But he doesn't have the feats for the WG to deem him a powerful pirate. A threat due to his connection to Dragon. But not a powerful pirate.

Luffy has not...

1.Soloed a pirate crew like most have(Kaido)
2.Soloed Marines like most pirates(Doffy vs Smoker, Ace in Alabasta)
3.Taken down a commander until now.

The WG can't list him as powerful even though he has beaten 3 Warlords, and punched a CD.

I'm not hating on Luffy, I love him as much as others do.

So I say a powerful pirate is some who can. Solo a whole crew and have destructive powers.

Thanks for reading.
Discuss in the comments.
 
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M3J

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A powerful pirate is someone who can beat majority of his opponents, at the very least. Luffy is powerful because save for the Yonkou or admirals, he can beat almost anyone. Most of the Yonkou are powerful because their crew is either powerful or they are, and any major group like another Yonkou or the Marines warring them would result in heavy losses.

Solo'ing a whole crew isn't a criteria, given no one can solo a Yonkou's crew. If they could, no one has tried yet which would be odd. Neither should having destructive powers, because that doesn't necessarily mean they're strong. If someone could wipe out a whole country, it'd mean little if a normal person or a decent haki user could take out the person with a destructive attack.
 

Onyx Darkmatter

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Except Luffy has something that's more dangerous than just mere military power; he has the ability to turn anyone into his ally, which compensates for the military. It has always happened, and it's even happening right now in WCI (Jimbei, Pekoms, and even Pudding).

That aside, Luffy is already a powerful pirate. Maybe not as powerful as the Yonkos, but he's skilled when it comes to close-combat (unless he fights someone who's better at close-combat, like Rob Lucci or even Doflamingo).
 

Freid

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Luffy can definitely solo noob to intermediate level crews but it's just that he's always punching above his weight in his fights. He's shown that he's strong enough to hang with top tier pirates, so the WG would be stupid not to consider him a legitimate threat at this point. Akainu was also gunning for Luffy in the war for fear of his potential. He'd probably have even been offered a Shichibukai position if he hadn't waged war against the WG.
 

Fox666

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Luffy needed Gear 4th to take down Cracker, but he also needed it for Doffy a real powerhouse.

I'm trying to figure out a pirate as an individual, how to determine they are ultimately strong.

Luffy is seen as a powerful pirate in our eyes. But he hasn't done things that others who are seen as powerful pirates done.
Simply put, these two cases show how Luffy is nowhere close to the level of the Yonko.

Luffy's Gear 4th may have seen impressive when he first used it, but it's clear that he's not that powerful. Doflamingo was heavily injured from Law's attack, something even Luffy mentioned (which is unusual), and even so Luffy couldn't defeat him without Law's assistance. And Gear 4th failed again against Cracker, who was only defeated because Nami found his weakness.

Cracker, like Jack, is one of the top-tier fighters of the Yonko. They are like Marco, Jozu or Vista that we have seen during the war in Marineford. As of now, at the very best Luffy is even with characters like these.
 
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M3J

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Except Luffy has something that's more dangerous than just mere military power; he has the ability to turn anyone into his ally, which compensates for the military. It has always happened, and it's even happening right now in WCI (Jimbei, Pekoms, and even Pudding).

That aside, Luffy is already a powerful pirate. Maybe not as powerful as the Yonkos, but he's skilled when it comes to close-combat (unless he fights someone who's better at close-combat, like Rob Lucci or even Doflamingo).
What makes him just as dangerous and powerful is his refusal to give up. Without that, he would have lost to Crocodile, Lucci, and so many others. He's powerful, but often he's not as powerful as his opponents, which is why his inability to give up is what makes him powerful. One could argue it'd put him over superior opponents like Doflamingo, even.

Though, I don't think even his endurance and life force are enough against a Yonkou, especially when he couldn't beat Doflamingo without help.
 

Onyx Darkmatter

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What makes him just as dangerous and powerful is his refusal to give up. Without that, he would have lost to Crocodile, Lucci, and so many others. He's powerful, but often he's not as powerful as his opponents, which is why his inability to give up is what makes him powerful. One could argue it'd put him over superior opponents like Doflamingo, even.

Though, I don't think even his endurance and life force are enough against a Yonkou, especially when he couldn't beat Doflamingo without help.
That too is what makes him dangerous, but that requires a goal for Luffy (otherwise, he won't take it seriously).
 

Shobu_Yoruichi

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Strength is one of the key pieces in the world of One Piece.

How can we exactly determine if a pirate is exactly string or not?Considering they are the main fighters in the world.
[...]
Shanks. Undetermined at the moment.
[...]
Well, there you have a powerful pirate.

I'm simply assuming but Shanks is one of the most powerful pirates of the world. Not because he's Yonkou or sailed with Roger but his Haki. That's the powerscale in One Piece, whilst more ambition and willpower, more powerful a Haki is. I'm exactly pointing Shanks as an example because of the info Oda gave in the SBS when a reader asked 'How many people would have fallen against Shanks' or Rayleigh's Haoshoku Haki?' -in comparison with Luffy's Haoshoku fainting 5.000 Gyojin- The answer: '10.000, all of them.'

We know rather at some sort what Rayleigh or Garp are capable of... they only have Haki. So, i can infer that is the key to become more strong in One Piece, and regarding the fact of how is feared the Houshoku, Luffy has many chances of getting stronger.
 

Marco Polo

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How to determine a powerful pirate , you say?

In terms of physical strength

1- Are they good at Haki
2-

Being powerful as a whole depends massively on your sphere of influence; if you have a large group of allies/subordinates that strength in numbers is a big thing
 

BigBadDogg

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Guys..Luffy is a powerful pirate. There might be around 30 - 50 pirates that can top him in the whole manga. If we were going by tiers SSS, SS, S, A+, A, A-, etc.... he would be around an A tier strength wise. Doffy, Cracker, Jack and some of the warlords would be S class while the admirals and the yonkou might be SS or SSS by a stretch. I don't think their is any SSS revealed yet. FYI Zoro and most supernovas would also be an A class. Sanji would be a B+ or A-.

Just a note, A tier can lose or win up to one standard deviation (one class above and below) depending on circumstance such as law and luffy teaming up or luffy and Nami teaming up
 

M3J

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Too many tiers there. Luffy would be A- along with Doflamingo, if not A, while the Yonkou and admirals would be A+ or S.
 

Tabaro Foka

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Power of will is unlimited.
Luffy evolve after fight with stronger enemies.His will to not give up forced him to pass his limits to new hights.
 

kkck

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The norm so far is that powerful fighters excel in martial arts, physical strength, haki and usually have mastered their devil fruits. There are a few exceptions of people who are insanely strong without having devil fruits but those are still relatively rare, specially once you get to the higher tiers.

As for luffy, I still think he is a bit behind tierwise from the top of the world. He won against doflamingo specifically because of all the help he got through the fight, without the help he stands 0% chance of winning. And he won against cracker because nami was there to soften up the cracker army with her moisture and allow luffy to eat it. Without that crucial bit of help he would have lost to cracker and cracker would have only had minor trouble.
 

Hannibal Psyche

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There's only one way to determine strength, and that's from physical abilities.

Devil fruit strength can't be standardised, they all have their strengths and weaknesses and more so because its efficacy is many times conditoinal.

  • Some have attacks that cover a wide range. - Gura Gura no Mi
  • Some require the physical attributes of the user. - Gomu Gomu no Mi
  • Some don't require the physical attributes of the user at all. - Ito Ito no Mi/Bisu Bisu no Mi
  • Some have extraordinary capabilities. - Soru Soru no Mi
  • Some abilities can be resisted, some can't regardless of how powerful you were. - Mero Mero no Mi
If Whitebeard were a pervert like Sanji, and he got shot by Boa Hancock, he'd be defeated. Wouldn't mean Boa Hancock was stronger, but DF abilities change the dynamics of fights to such an extent that even relatively weak people become troublesome.

So, to determine strength besides anything other than physical attributes is inherently flawed. How does it make any sense to compare someone who can create armies and not even need to move or waste a bit of energy to utilise their ability... to someone whose ability not only drains their stamina, but also exhausts them physically? and more so when they can't replicate themselves which means they need to expend even more energy.

If I said Akainu is equally as powerful as Aokiji, albeit slightly stronger, is it wrong for me to say Ace is equally as strong as Aokiji but massively weaker than Akainu? It's flawed logic. Devil fruits are majority of the time not reflective of the strength of the user. Akainu's Magma being superior to Ace's Fire was nothing to do with strength, just DF interaction; Aokiji (the guy who matched Akainu blow for blow) had his Ice completely melted by Ace's Fire, again, not reflective of strength, just DF interaction. If one tried to use DF interaction as basis for power, it becomes contradictory.

  1. Ace > Aokiji
  2. Aokiji = Akainu
  3. but, Akainu > Ace
Let's not forget that Moriah was so succcesfful that he was able to advance far enough to challenge Kaido. Moriah isn't exceptoinally powerful, he just possesses a troublesome ability. When it all comes down to it, what determines who is strong and who is weak is how well they can take damage, deal damage and dodge attacks. End of the day, an ability wouldn't determine how well you could take a powerful blow, your physical attributes do.

If that's not the case, then are people without abilities just utterly superior to those with abilities? doubt it. What Luffy lacks is intelligence which he'll gain from experience. You can't always go in head-first, you need to understand your opponents ability, and need to be as tactical as possible. Of course, Luffy will still get stronger.

Teaming up also doesn't mean you're weak; it took Sengoku and Garp to take down Shiki. Does it mean Shiki is twice as strong as individual Admirals? No. Sometimes, abilities are just so powerful, they tend to give overwhelming advantages. End of the day, we go back to Cracker and Joker, and what happens when they're finally met with physical blows from Luffy? Utterly decimated.

Bare in mind, Luffy's ability is only as strong as he is:

  1. His stamina is not from his ability, his ability utilises his stamina unlike majority of abilities.
  2. Luffy's threshold for pain is not attributed to his ability, again, it's his physically developed threshold that's at work here.
  3. His Gears drain him and utilise the entirety of his strength and speed, again, it's only able to go as far as Luffy can push himself -
    just imagine being tied to a motorbike and being forced to run at 70mph? unless you're physical up to the challenge, being forced to retain running motion would require having the muscle strength and stamina to maintain it.
 

M3J

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Joker withstood tons of physical blows from Luffy and lost mainly because Luffy had help, especially from Law. if not for that, Luffy would have likely lost long ago. End of the day, it took tons of hits and help for Luffy to beat Joker.
 

Hannibal Psyche

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Joker withstood tons of physical blows from Luffy and lost mainly because Luffy had help, especially from Law. if not for that, Luffy would have likely lost long ago. End of the day, it took tons of hits and help for Luffy to beat Joker.

He didn't.

He withstood 4 Gear 4th attacks, the 5th destroyed him.

Gear 2nd blows were the only attacks he could take.

Also, you need to factor DF ability. It's not reflective of his strength; the cage can't even pushed by an Admiral + an entire country while Joker himself is not physically that powerful.

While Luffy may have had help, Joker has an ability that is representative of thousands of people... he can control thousands of people at the same time effortlessly.
 

M3J

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He did. He withstood a stab by Law and continued to fight, even after taking four Gear 4 punches. We don't know if he could have taken Gear 3 punches as they were too slow to connect, and there's a good chance Doflamingo would have taken it if he could take multiple Gear 4 punches.

None of those thousands of people helped Doflamingo fight Luffy, but a lot of those people helped Luffy fight Doflamingo. Factoring in devil fruit ability, there's a good chance Law would have beat Doflamingo with that knife stab. And devil fruit ability is reflective of a pirate's strength, unless you mean physical strength.
 

uberfayt

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I know this looks a it off topic, but I wanna talk about Luffy vs Doflamingo, so here is how it went :
  1. Luffy's attacks (no gear 4th) were doing nearly no damage, except of a surprise attack plus some hits while Doffy was pinned due to Gamma knife.
  2. Doffy's attacks were not that effective on Luffy as well. In fact even if he falls to the ground, Luffy almost immediately recovers as if it was nothing.
  3. Doffy's defense and stamina however were obviously off the charts, even higher than Luffy's, as he effortlessly blocked G2/G3 attacks from Luffy.
  4. Luffy's gear fourth was quite effective against Doffy, and made him get the upper hand in the fight. But it still took many hits to take Doffy down, due to his tanky body.

Verdict : Luffy (no gear 4th) overall is surprisingly not that inferior to Doffy as he could tank his attacks quite easily, but lacked the necessary offensive power to inflict damage. In Gear 4th however, Luffy gains the upper hand as he dominates the fight, which becomes a fight against time due to Doffy's high resilience. When all is said and done : Luffy < Doffy.
 
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Brandish μ

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Power tiers in any manga should always be determined by the probability of winning a fight against a standard opponent; or the % of the manga verse that a character can defeat in 1 v 1 battle.

The structure of the verse will often give you indicators of power levels in a general way too. We know a Yonkou or Admiral are strong. The bounty can indicate power level as well.
 

HereNThere

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The norm so far is that powerful fighters excel in martial arts, physical strength, haki and usually have mastered their devil fruits. There are a few exceptions of people who are insanely strong without having devil fruits but those are still relatively rare, specially once you get to the higher tiers.
Basically this with the addition of years of experience.

Those who are deemed powerful are often shown having a strong, solid combat foundation and it's made apparent that they won't be stopped if you take away one of their combat avenues, like a Devil Fruit ability.

I think it's also possible to be a powerful pirate and not be able to solo a group. Like Kaido.
 
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