Discussion How will luffy fight Blackbeard?

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Hi everyone! I wanted to discuss how luffy would eventually fight and defeat good old blackbeard. I think this is a particularly interesting case due to BB having multiple fruits but specially the yami yami fruit.

So far luffy has developed a fighting style entirely around his devil fruit. Luffy obviously has excellent martial art skills along with excellent mastery of haki and would without his devil fruit be quite powerful. However his techniques and martial arts are basically applications of his fruit. His punches rely almost entirely on his elasticity for instance. Haki was used to enhance his martial art. Luffy's gears are incredibly powerful but they by nature revolve around his devil fruit. Even his gear 4 which combined to a great extent haki and his devil fruit falls into that.

However with this in mind blackbeard is a particularly bad enemy for luffy. Luffy has generally been able to fight stronger enemies than he otherwise would have because his gears allow him a temporal yet significant boost in power. However he can't use gears against blackbeard. Gears are possible because his rubber body is able to handle the stress of increased blood flow or inflated bones and muscle. BB is a particularly bad enemy for luffy because if BB uses his darkness fruit luffy should by any logic explode. At least I can't imagine any other scenario being possible given his increased blood flow or inflated limbs.

The best luffy could do is get mastery over all the gears he has and use them specifically when blackbeard won't be able to touch luffy back so to speak. However that still presents an issue. Luffy has that level of mastery with gear 2 and 3 and perhaps will acquire it with four however for the most part luffy simply won't be able to use his gears even to run around as he risks getting pulled while the gear is active. Luffy's best bet against blackbeard will basically be beating him in a close quarter confrontation without using his gears. However even that implies luffy will have to take the quake fruit head on without his more advanced skills.

Basically, assuming luffy has to defeat BB one on one he will spend most of the time not using the more advance skills which generally allow him to fight on even ground with tougher enemies. Take his fight with doflamingo for instance. Most of his gear 2 punches were more or less implied to cause doflamingo little to no damage in the long term. And he won't even have that against a yonko....

So... how do you think this fight will develop? Remember this isn't a vs thread, it's not about who'd win now. But about how luffy will work around BB's powers.
 

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Thanks @kkck for your post and analysis. :^_^

One of the things that came to my mind as I was reading your post was about how Luffy would be able to counter or avoid BlackBeard's attack when he uses Yami Yami no Mi.

Though BB may seem like invincible, particularly when he has two devil fruits, however it is without doubt that these fruits have their weaknesses too. Not much has been shown by BB, he is quite a cunning fellow, and it seems that in order for him to use yami yami on another person, he needs to touch his victim and to remain his touch for the effect to remain constant. If he let go of his touch, the victim's ability comes back. I doubt Luffy is going to stand still for that to happen, unless he is being restricted or confined that he could not move.

While BB uses his devil fruit skill, he also remains vulnerable to attacks from others. In many cases, Luffy is always with his nakama and allies who are there to help him, whether directly or indirectly.Take Dressrosa arc for instance, Luffy had almost every person in the country helping him. The one closest to him was Law, who fought side by side with him. Though Law might have been defeated at the end, he was able to take the early damages which may well be gazed upon Luffy. With so many faithful people with him, Luffy had confidently won over the battle and saved the country.

I believe when it comes to the battle with BB in the future, it may be a similar scenario where all his nakama and allies gathered around and supporting him. Sometimes team work may boost a successful result.

Honestly I'm not sure how will Luffy fight BB if he does not have his rubber body. But if he is able to get around and hit BB with one of his gears while BB is in the "vulnerable" state, then Luffy may have a chance to win. Or at least gives a substantial damage to BB.

Whether it works or not, I have a feeling that Luffy needs to work on BB's weaknesses in order to counter-attack and hopefully to reduce unnecessary damages from BB. One other thing worth mentioning is that if Luffy is strong enough to break free the grip from BB without using his devil fruit, he would be able to gain back his DF ability immediately after the grip is released. While in that instant, Luffy should be able to counter-attack BB with one of his gomu gomu technique. Even if (unfortunately) Luffy is being sucked into BB's "black hole", it is not necessary that he would die. The soldiers in Impel Down sustained heavy injuries and did not die from BB's attack. Perhaps with haki, Luffy may be able to nullify BB's ability. With Luffy constantly growing as a character, he will be more prepared to face BB when the day finally comes. :super
 

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Shouldn't haki be able to cancel out Black Beards ability to take away DF powers? Meaning the full body in Armament Haki would be a sufficient counter to BBs ability right? Luffy has already shown that he can cover most of his body in haki, using Gear 4. Maybe Gear 5 will be his full body in Haki + something else.
Also Gear 4 proved to be pretty good in avoiding attacks. Deducing from what we have seen from Black Beard I think we can say that he is not the fastest. He was more or less relying on using his long range attack or getting very close. Both strategies can be countered with Gear 4 right now I'd say, the first becaues of Luffys speed and the characteristics of Gear 4 that make it easy to avoid attacks and second again the speed to keep a distance if required.
 

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Shouldn't haki be able to cancel out Black Beards ability to take away DF powers? Meaning the full body in Armament Haki would be a sufficient counter to BBs ability right? Luffy has already shown that he can cover most of his body in haki, using Gear 4. Maybe Gear 5 will be his full body in Haki + something else.
Also Gear 4 proved to be pretty good in avoiding attacks. Deducing from what we have seen from Black Beard I think we can say that he is not the fastest. He was more or less relying on using his long range attack or getting very close. Both strategies can be countered with Gear 4 right now I'd say, the first becaues of Luffys speed and the characteristics of Gear 4 that make it easy to avoid attacks and second again the speed to keep a distance if required.
No, haki simply doesn't have that effect, as in taking away devil fruit abilities. Haki has the quality that is able to come in contact with the target's real body and affect them normally. However the target itself does not stop being whatever it was originally. For instance, you could hit ace with haki but ace wouldn't stop being fire in any form or context. Taking away abilities altogether is exclusively a yami fruit deal (or kairoseki but that is another deal). Take the time luffy grabbed ceasar. Ceasar didn't stop being gas at that time.

In theory that could work but all BB needs to do is grab luffy ones and luffy would literally pop like a balloon. A bloody balloon.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Thanks @kkck for your post and analysis. :^_^

One of the things that came to my mind as I was reading your post was about how Luffy would be able to counter or avoid BlackBeard's attack when he uses Yami Yami no Mi.

Though BB may seem like invincible, particularly when he has two devil fruits, however it is without doubt that these fruits have their weaknesses too. Not much has been shown by BB, he is quite a cunning fellow, and it seems that in order for him to use yami yami on another person, he needs to touch his victim and to remain his touch for the effect to remain constant. If he let go of his touch, the victim's ability comes back. I doubt Luffy is going to stand still for that to happen, unless he is being restricted or confined that he could not move.

While BB uses his devil fruit skill, he also remains vulnerable to attacks from others. In many cases, Luffy is always with his nakama and allies who are there to help him, whether directly or indirectly.Take Dressrosa arc for instance, Luffy had almost every person in the country helping him. The one closest to him was Law, who fought side by side with him. Though Law might have been defeated at the end, he was able to take the early damages which may well be gazed upon Luffy. With so many faithful people with him, Luffy had confidently won over the battle and saved the country.

I believe when it comes to the battle with BB in the future, it may be a similar scenario where all his nakama and allies gathered around and supporting him. Sometimes team work may boost a successful result.

Honestly I'm not sure how will Luffy fight BB if he does not have his rubber body. But if he is able to get around and hit BB with one of his gears while BB is in the "vulnerable" state, then Luffy may have a chance to win. Or at least gives a substantial damage to BB.

Whether it works or not, I have a feeling that Luffy needs to work on BB's weaknesses in order to counter-attack and hopefully to reduce unnecessary damages from BB. One other thing worth mentioning is that if Luffy is strong enough to break free the grip from BB without using his devil fruit, he would be able to gain back his DF ability immediately after the grip is released. While in that instant, Luffy should be able to counter-attack BB with one of his gomu gomu technique. Even if (unfortunately) Luffy is being sucked into BB's "black hole", it is not necessary that he would die. The soldiers in Impel Down sustained heavy injuries and did not die from BB's attack. Perhaps with haki, Luffy may be able to nullify BB's ability. With Luffy constantly growing as a character, he will be more prepared to face BB when the day finally comes. :super
I did consider the possibility that Luffy would fight with allies against this particularly powerful enemy however this battle in many ways is far more personal than any other battle luffy can have. BB is the one that delivered ace to the world government after all. The only other battle which should be more personal is luffy vs akainu.... I guess it also depends on how BB's main crew compares to that of the other yonko. Jack, marco and jozu are people who can probably repel admirals... At least what we have seen of BB's crew at this point does not warrant that level of hype.
 

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No, haki simply doesn't have that effect, as in taking away devil fruit abilities. Haki has the quality that is able to come in contact with the target's real body and affect them normally. However the target itself does not stop being whatever it was originally. For instance, you could hit ace with haki but ace wouldn't stop being fire in any form or context. Taking away abilities altogether is exclusively a yami fruit deal (or kairoseki but that is another deal). Take the time luffy grabbed ceasar. Ceasar didn't stop being gas at that time.

In theory that could work but all BB needs to do is grab luffy ones and luffy would literally pop like a balloon. A bloody balloon.
Right, but isn't being able to touch a logia with haki not canceling out part of his abilities? Without haki you can't touch him, with haki you can.
Also when Luffy got hit by Vegapunks haki punch didn't Luffy mention that he felt that somehow his rubber ability wasn't working anymore?
That would mean that haki can kinda cancel out defensive abilities, but you could also use this as an offensive weapon. Its not confirmed of course, but why shouldn't you be able to shield yourself from external df influence by covering your body in haki? Especially when it comes to an odd ability like BBs fruit.
 

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Right, but isn't being able to touch a logia with haki not canceling out part of his abilities? Without haki you can't touch him, with haki you can.
Also when Luffy got hit by Vegapunks haki punch didn't Luffy mention that he felt that somehow his rubber ability wasn't working anymore?
That would mean that haki can kinda cancel out defensive abilities, but you could also use this as an offensive weapon. Its not confirmed of course, but why shouldn't you be able to shield yourself from external df influence by covering your body in haki? Especially when it comes to an odd ability like BBs fruit.
Vegapunk? No, what luffy wondered was why the punch hurt if he was rubber. As in, luffy was in fact rubber but the punch hurt regardless. So nothing got cancel but the punch worked. It's a weird concept but it seems to work fairly consistently through the manga.

You can't shield yourself the way you mention because haki does not provide any form of ability canceling to begin with. If BB's ability could be cancelled out with haki then the ability would be pointless to begin with as anyone with haki could replicate it. Imagine BB and anyone else against pekom's fruit. BB would be able to absorb pekoms, altogether get rid of his zoan transformation and beat the everloving crap out of him. Anyone else would simply be using haki against pekom's haki covered shell.
 

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@kkck: Ok, lets try this example:

1) If Luffy punches Akainu with a fist covered in haki, will he get burned?
2) If Akainu punches Luffy with his magma fist and Luffy guards with one of limbs covered in haki, will he get burned then?

I think it is kind of confirmed that the answer of 1) is no, right?
And if the answer of 2 would be yes, wouldn't that be a logic problem?
 

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@kkck: Ok, lets try this example:

1) If Luffy punches Akainu with a fist covered in haki, will he get burned?
2) If Akainu punches Luffy with his magma fist and Luffy guards with one of limbs covered in haki, will he get burned then?

I think it is kind of confirmed that the answer of 1) is no, right?
And if the answer of 2 would be yes, wouldn't that be a logic problem?
I think there is a risk in either scenario of him getting burned. Luffy has precisely 0 tools that will in any form or context stop akainu from being made entirely out of magma. In that regard it comes down to whether luffy's armor haki can protect him from the heat. Luffy is pretty skilled with haki so he should at least be able to punch akainu without getting burned. I would assume defense, from a magma punch for instance, would be harder as he would be dealing with akainu's momentum, haki, strength and magma with only his haki and rubber body (which really should not provide luffy with any additional defense).
 

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I think there is a risk in either scenario of him getting burned. Luffy has precisely 0 tools that will in any form or context stop akainu from being made entirely out of magma. In that regard it comes down to whether luffy's armor haki can protect him from the heat. Luffy is pretty skilled with haki so he should at least be able to punch akainu without getting burned. I would assume defense, from a magma punch for instance, would be harder as he would be dealing with akainu's momentum, haki, strength and magma with only his haki and rubber body (which really should not provide luffy with any additional defense).
Right. I do think the same. But wouldn't that reasoning mean that haki can "cancel out" the ability of Akainus fruit (here being heat)?
Coming back to blackbeard: If Luffy can protect himself with sufficient haki from Akainus heat/fire/magma, then why shouldn't he be able to prevent BB from affecting him?
 

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Right. I do think the same. But wouldn't that reasoning mean that haki can "cancel out" the ability of Akainus fruit (here being heat)?
Coming back to blackbeard: If Luffy can protect himself with sufficient haki from Akainus heat/fire/magma, then why shouldn't he be able to prevent BB from affecting him?
No, it would mean that it can protect him from heat. Take jozu, he was able to punch aokiji without bring frozen. But when jozu lowered his guard he was frozen pretty quickly. Haki can physically protect you from a variety of things but that does not mean it has any degree of canceling effect within a context relevant to deactivating abilities as BB does.

What exactly is there for luffy to protect himself from? The issue here would be BB specifically doing two things: Physically touching him to deactivate his fruit and using his gravity to attract luffy. In the first case there is nothing going on for luffy to protect himself from. In the second case it doesn't make sense that haki would do anything. BB is using gravity, luffy is quite literally falling towards BB. Luffy protecting himself from this with haki would be exactly the same as him using haki to defend himself from earth's gravitational pull. What you are proposing here is luffy defying gravity with haki, basically he would learn how to fly.
 

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Gear 4 can't be compared to the power of quake df either, I remember when Ace tried to kill WB at night and WB's body emitted the quake waves which forced Ace flying out the room. Unless Oda puts a big constraints on how BB is able to use that power, Luffy df has 0% probability wining against the combination of those 2 df.

That's why I think it's best for Luffy to have 1 real df and another artificial df such that BB's darkness can only cancel out one but not both power. This also satisfies the rule that no one ordinary could eat 2 df in a sense 2 real natural df but not a combo of 1 real and 1 artificial.
 

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Gear 4 can't be compared to the power of quake df either, I remember when Ace tried to kill WB at night and WB's body emitted the quake waves which forced Ace flying out the room. Unless Oda puts a big constraints on how BB is able to use that power, Luffy df has 0% probability wining against the combination of those 2 df.
Aside from possibly CoO, we don't know how he attacked Ace.

Luffy's best bet against blackbeard will basically be beating him in a close quarter confrontation without using his gears. However even that implies luffy will have to take the quake fruit head on without his more advanced skills.
As you said here, this is Luffy's best bet, but that would require a higher mastery of haki, which I don't think he currently has. Plus, in my opinion, his base form needs to be stronger. He would need to fully cover himself in Haki like Vergo and just take the fight to BB without relying overly on his fruit. Gear 4 might be quick enough to allow for Luffy to get in and out without BB touching him, however, since he is bouncing around, that would give BB a better chance to pull him in with Vortex.

It's possible that Oda had Luffy create a technique specifically meant for BB. His current arsenal won't be enough, especially seeing how BB will have Haki as well as is quite the physical monster himself.
 

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Given that CoA provides a magical invisible suit of armor that has been shown to block out other magical properties, it's possible that full body hardening with enough strength, would protect Luffy from BB's touch, given that BB would be touching the armor, not Luffy himself. It would also be able to mitigate the damage of the earthquake fruit, but it's more likely that the combination of the two, upon direct impact, would break through Luffy's armor.

Less likely, but still possible, would be Luffy's magical invisible armor protecting him from other magical abilities, such as a change in gravity, since it acts as a magical force.

I'm curious about whether or not Luffy, using haki to hit BB, would do less damage because BB's fruit causes him to take more damage, but if he has a "true body", that bonus would be lost.

Vegapunk? No, what luffy wondered was why the punch hurt if he was rubber. As in, luffy was in fact rubber but the punch hurt regardless. So nothing got cancel but the punch worked. It's a weird concept but it seems to work fairly consistently through the manga.
This is because the punch hit Luffy's "true body" which isn't made of rubber. Much the same way that Akainu punched through Ace's "true body" and seared him with magma, or Luffy caught hold of Caesar's "true body."

Right, but isn't being able to touch a logia with haki not canceling out part of his abilities?
To an extent. Whitebeard managed to grab and quake BB's body directly, which is only really explainable by him using haki to do it. One, he could grab BB's true body, and two, he was protected against BB's DF canceling passive.

1) If Luffy punches Akainu with a fist covered in haki, will he get burned?
2) If Akainu punches Luffy with his magma fist and Luffy guards with one of limbs covered in haki, will he get burned then?
Depends on the strength of Luffy's haki, and whether or not Akainu is using haki himself.

Basically, assuming luffy has to defeat BB one on one he will spend most of the time not using the more advance skills which generally allow him to fight on even ground with tougher enemies. Take his fight with doflamingo for instance. Most of his gear 2 punches were more or less implied to cause doflamingo little to no damage in the long term. And he won't even have that against a yonko....
I think his more advanced skills would be the only way to control the fight. If his gatling, for example, isn't doing enough in whatever form its in to prevent BB from grabbing one of his arms, then it's unlikely that not using it will fair any better. He'd either have to power through BB, or throw him around like a ragdoll with each move - and this is all assuming that rule of drama wouldn't let Luffy sweep the fight, even if he could. Whatever Luffy dreams up by endgame will require him to both have access to his heavy hitting moves, just to exchange blows with BB, and provide him with enough survivability to avoid being Aced by BB.
 

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Given that CoA provides a magical invisible suit of armor that has been shown to block out other magical properties, it's possible that full body hardening with enough strength, would protect Luffy from BB's touch, given that BB would be touching the armor, not Luffy himself. It would also be able to mitigate the damage of the earthquake fruit, but it's more likely that the combination of the two, upon direct impact, would break through Luffy's armor.

Less likely, but still possible, would be Luffy's magical invisible armor protecting him from other magical abilities, such as a change in gravity, since it acts as a magical force.

I'm curious about whether or not Luffy, using haki to hit BB, would do less damage because BB's fruit causes him to take more damage, but if he has a "true body", that bonus would be lost.



This is because the punch hit Luffy's "true body" which isn't made of rubber. Much the same way that Akainu punched through Ace's "true body" and seared him with magma, or Luffy caught hold of Caesar's "true body."



To an extent. Whitebeard managed to grab and quake BB's body directly, which is only really explainable by him using haki to do it. One, he could grab BB's true body, and two, he was protected against BB's DF canceling passive.



Depends on the strength of Luffy's haki, and whether or not Akainu is using haki himself.



I think his more advanced skills would be the only way to control the fight. If his gatling, for example, isn't doing enough in whatever form its in to prevent BB from grabbing one of his arms, then it's unlikely that not using it will fair any better. He'd either have to power through BB, or throw him around like a ragdoll with each move - and this is all assuming that rule of drama wouldn't let Luffy sweep the fight, even if he could. Whatever Luffy dreams up by endgame will require him to both have access to his heavy hitting moves, just to exchange blows with BB, and provide him with enough survivability to avoid being Aced by BB.
Only if haki can somehow actually prevent BB from grabbing luffy altogether. I don't think the manga provides any evidence that haki could actually prevent the ability once BB has a hold of the target.

It's not a magical force, it's actual and literal gravity. And even then, devil fruits aren't magic as far as we know. The manga has made the point that devil fruit "science" has been long cracked by vegapunk which is why they are able to make DF weapons and ceasar is able to make cheap copies. With that in mind, the gravity BB should by all intents and purposes be the exact same thing as, well, gravity. There isn't a distinction to be made between magical and non magical abilities here.

Luffy's true body is made out of rubber. Luffy's specifically only and exclusively has a rubber body, he does not activate or deactivate his ability. And logia users don't stop being their element when haki comes into play. We have literally seen luffy grab gas. Ceasar did not stop being gas when luffy came in contact with him. And even akainu made the point that he burned ace's flames.

I'd think it makes more sense for BB's fruit cancelling ability to only work when he physically grabs something rather than when he is being punched. It would explain the BB bit at least.

The big issue ultimately comes down to the risk the gears place luffy in. If luffy is stretched out when BB grabs him then he would simply unstretch at touch. But if any of his gears are activated the damage could and should be fatal. His rubber body allows luffy to tolerate his increased blood flow as far as we know and he would literally pop like a balloon if he is in gear 2 or 3.
 

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Only if haki can somehow actually prevent BB from grabbing luffy altogether. I don't think the manga provides any evidence that haki could actually prevent the ability once BB has a hold of the target.
Whitebeard could touch BB and it didn't prevent him from using his ability.

It's not a magical force, it's actual and literal gravity. And even then, devil fruits aren't magic as far as we know. The manga has made the point that devil fruit "science" has been long cracked by vegapunk which is why they are able to make DF weapons and ceasar is able to make cheap copies. With that in mind, the gravity BB should by all intents and purposes be the exact same thing as, well, gravity. There isn't a distinction to be made between magical and non magical abilities here.
Magic isn't unexplainable. It is its own force. In this sense, Haki and DF powers are both things, but they're magic, in the sense that they are their own forces.

BB's generation of gravity comes from magic. It does not work in the same conventional way as gravity, it does not have the same source, nor requirements. It simply is becomes BB wills it to be so.

Luffy's true body is made out of rubber. Luffy's specifically only and exclusively has a rubber body, he does not activate or deactivate his ability. And logia users don't stop being their element when haki comes into play. We have literally seen luffy grab gas. Ceasar did not stop being gas when luffy came in contact with him. And even akainu made the point that he burned ace's flames.
Logia users have to learn to solidify, because they are just their elements as well, as we saw when Tashigi switched bodies with Smoker. Luffy has a "true body", not because he switches between the two, but because he existed before the Devil Fruit. Our introduction to CoA was it being used against Luffy. None of this is canceling out anything, elements, for example, remain elements when CoA comes into play, but the magical armor can touch the magical being's "original self" which is their "true body."

I'd think it makes more sense for BB's fruit cancelling ability to only work when he physically grabs something rather than when he is being punched. It would explain the BB bit at least.
I doesn't make more or less sense, it makes just as much sense.

The big issue ultimately comes down to the risk the gears place luffy in. If luffy is stretched out when BB grabs him then he would simply unstretch at touch. But if any of his gears are activated the damage could and should be fatal. His rubber body allows luffy to tolerate his increased blood flow as far as we know and he would literally pop like a balloon if he is in gear 2 or 3.
How would he simply unstretch at touch? Why wouldn't he just rip apart?
 

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Punch him really hard, I suppose. That`s how he has beat everyone up until now, it ain`t rocket science.

And I don`t get what Blackbeard "true body" is supposed to be, he is the only logia who doesn`t can`t turn into his element and left things pass through him. So haki or no haki, Luffy would still be able to hit him. And I think this thread is a bit early. We really don`t know what Balckbeard can do after the time skip (maybe he has even more fruit powers now), and we don`t know what other techniques will Luffy have in gear Fourth, or any other gears. I think we will have a clearer picture of this toward the end of the series, when the fight will most likely take place.
 

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It probably may not "cancel out" BB's attack, but I think if Luffy imbues himself with haki and if it is strong enough, it may reduce the impact of BB's attack on him. Assuming if Luffy couldn't resist BB's gravity and he is forced to draw close to BB to the extend that Luffy could not escape, then I suppose with his haki, he may at least escape death and just sustains injury.

Luffy's fight is usually not alone. He is seen to fight along side with his crew and allies, their support has always played an important role in Luffy's succeed in his battle, even if it means death. So I reckon, in time to come when Luffy has to face BB, then he will not face his enemy alone but with everyone's support, which would definitely help him to a certain extent. :^_^
 

Barrier

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I think Luffy will fight BB and will be defeated. Then there would be rematch where luffy will have counter to BB's DF powers. Luffy personally witnessed WB's DF powers and he also knows that BB right now has that DF power and Yami Yami as well. So I am sure luffy would have a plan.

What the counter is something I cannot guess :hip
 

Franckie

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Absolute mastery over his Haki + Absolute mastery over his DF (e.g. Gear 4 with 0 drawbacks) = Top-tier Luffy. Bear in mind too that Blackbeard's Logia powers make him more susceptible to damage. Blackbeard drawing Luffy in could actually backfire on him by allowing Luffy to sucker punch him with a well-aimed punch to the head.
 

M3J

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Haki will play a huge role here, and I can see Luffy mastering haki to the point that only Roger and/or possibly Whitebeard could. He and many others have also managed to land hits on Blackbeard as well, so I don't see that being impossible. Ace even managed to be a pretty big challenge to the point that he was praised.
 
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