>Goku ilustration for Dragon Ball 30th Anniversary
>Judge in a drawing contest
>Hiatus ended announcement
>Vol 33 announcement
>Hiatus return
>Interview with Ishida
>Hisoka's One shot by Ishida
>Hiatus announcement
>Interview with Kishimoto
>The cover from Shinjo's magazine
>Jump Ryu release in november 2.
>Hiatus return(?) xD
agree with you on most of what you've said, but not on the fact that there is an "idiot hero trend" in Dragon Ball. In the original manga, Goku as a kid was ignorant and naive, but then you watch as he grows up and becomes wiser and dependable (not only in strength but also in strategy sometimes). Yes, Goku as an adult was never an idiot (I'm not saying he was a genius either), he was always calm, laidback and nice, while retaining some of his naiveness. Of course we all know that he had some flaws, like not being a good father or even neglecting socializing with his friends, or forgiving his worst ennemies...But again I say it he was never stupid. It was only through fillers or fan made parodies where he was portrayed as an idiot goofball with crazy transformations, and now it became canon in the worst possible way (DBS).
Anyway my point is that I'm not fond of the idiot hero trend, and I fail to see how can such characters (naruto for instance) motivate or inspire audiences...
Maybe i used the phrase 'idiot hero' wrongly. I didn't mean to imply that goku is a complete idiot. In fact, at least in the original, he is a little bit more like gon: Naive but smart when it comes to reaching his goals.
What i mean by 'idiot hero' is the general trope of a hero who is seldomly among the smartest people in the room, very naive and has to be explained a lot, more of the 'simple but honest' type of guy and generally incorruptible.
Goku codified that trope, even if he is not as outright stupid as other shonen characters. It could probably renamed into 'naive hero' tho.
But i think Goku got MUCH straighter into that trope by the time of the buu saga and dragon ball super
Even if Vegeta actually does a lot more stupid stuff than he does (letting cell power up was just so insanely bad, but goku let buu off the hook so that 'the new generation can take over' too).
I do think that Naruto, at least initially, was a pretty inspiring character for teens that age. I mean, i liked him. You have your misunderstood and neglected loner with a heart of gold who then finds a group and people to protect who love him yada yada. That is speaking to younger teens and his stupidity is fine because kids also do not understand a lot of things.
I think things like that become more of a problem when they drag on too long and audiences get older.
I do not think that there exist popular shonen which do not, in some way, inspire kids or teens. Maybe claymore? Female protag who is rather lonely in the beginning could put some younger boys off.
Yeah I don't really see those outcomes in Hunterxhunter as being anticlimactic,I just see them as different. Those arcs did what they did fine imo, it's not like all Naruto and One piece arcs resolve everything at the end of the arcs either. As for Luffy's popularity,honestly I just think that people tend to like main characters for whatever reason more than side characters,I just don't think "escapist fantasies" is not the term I would use for why people like them,it just kinda comes off as derogatory to me but perhaps I am not taking it the right way hahaha. Honestly though I don't really care why people do or don't like them anyways,it really just comes down to if you don't like the main character the other aspects of the show have to make up for it. Clearly they don't for you,but they do for me. I generally agree with your points though. I also agree that certain characters in the big three are not fully explored,but you could say that about every series honestly.
Oh i really don't mean that word as derogatry. There are a lot of things i like which are pure escapist fantasies.
I do not know whether you know the game UNDERTALE, but that was one for me. I like to be complete goody-goody in games. I know most people do it reverse and do crazy stuff in games with decisions or options (like GTA), but i like to be the complete white hero when i get the option.
And oh boy did undertale let me be that. Naturally i do know that the story (while well written) was just that: an escapist fantasy in a lot more twisted and complex world. But it was a hella worthwhile one.
Maybe i used the phrase 'idiot hero' wrongly. I didn't mean to imply that goku is a complete idiot. In fact, at least in the original, he is a little bit more like gon: Naive but smart when it comes to reaching his goals.
What i mean by 'idiot hero' is the general trope of a hero who is seldomly among the smartest people in the room, very naive and has to be explained a lot, more of the 'simple but honest' type of guy and generally incorruptible.
Goku codified that trope, even if he is not as outright stupid as other shonen characters. It could probably renamed into 'naive hero' tho.
But i think Goku got MUCH straighter into that trope by the time of the buu saga and dragon ball super
Even if Vegeta actually does a lot more stupid stuff than he does (letting cell power up was just so insanely bad, but goku let buu off the hook so that 'the new generation can take over' too).
I do think that Naruto, at least initially, was a pretty inspiring character for teens that age. I mean, i liked him. You have your misunderstood and neglected loner with a heart of gold who then finds a group and people to protect who love him yada yada. That is speaking to younger teens and his stupidity is fine because kids also do not understand a lot of things.
I think things like that become more of a problem when they drag on too long and audiences get older.
I do not think that there exist popular shonen which do not, in some way, inspire kids or teens. Maybe claymore? Female protag who is rather lonely in the beginning could put some younger boys off.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Oh i really don't mean that word as derogatry. There are a lot of things i like which are pure escapist fantasies.
I do not know whether you know the game UNDERTALE, but that was one for me. I like to be complete goody-goody in games. I know most people do it reverse and do crazy stuff in games with decisions or options (like GTA), but i like to be the complete white hero when i get the option.
And oh boy did undertale let me be that. Naturally i do know that the story (while well written) was just that: an escapist fantasy in a lot more twisted and complex world. But it was a hella worthwhile one.
No i get you,i was just saying when i hear"escapist" i just usually think of something kinda derogatory,but i get what you mean no doubt. I am also one of those people who usually go with the goody goody rout lol,but it varies a bit for me i guess. Either way demographics are not really supposed to be full proof,they have a few general differences but i think people should judge things more off of a series individual quality,rather than demographic certainly. I think we can agree a lot of shonen MC's are kinda stupid and can drag the series down some. I think the only difference between us is that i like the other things those series bring enough that i simply don't care as much about the MC being an idiot,where as you clearly do which i totally get and respect. Honestly for me going forward i am being more picky with what series i follow as well in a way. The series that i have followed like Bleach and Naruto,while they piss me off due to their MC's at times (especially Naruto) i feel like i will always enjoy them because they got me into anime/manga,therefore i give them a pass in a way because that was kinda their trope. Now a days i expect more from new shonen in terms of their MC's because they have the ability to learn from series like Bleach and Naruto,just as Bleach and Naruto did with Dragon Ball. It's certainly bias in a way no doubt,but i feel like it makes sense and is just kinda the way i feel lol.
Maybe i used the phrase 'idiot hero' wrongly. I didn't mean to imply that goku is a complete idiot. In fact, at least in the original, he is a little bit more like gon: Naive but smart when it comes to reaching his goals.
What i mean by 'idiot hero' is the general trope of a hero who is seldomly among the smartest people in the room, very naive and has to be explained a lot, more of the 'simple but honest' type of guy and generally incorruptible.
Goku codified that trope, even if he is not as outright stupid as other shonen characters. It could probably renamed into 'naive hero' tho.
But i think Goku got MUCH straighter into that trope by the time of the buu saga and dragon ball super
Even if Vegeta actually does a lot more stupid stuff than he does (letting cell power up was just so insanely bad, but goku let buu off the hook so that 'the new generation can take over' too).
I do think that Naruto, at least initially, was a pretty inspiring character for teens that age. I mean, i liked him. You have your misunderstood and neglected loner with a heart of gold who then finds a group and people to protect who love him yada yada. That is speaking to younger teens and his stupidity is fine because kids also do not understand a lot of things.
I think things like that become more of a problem when they drag on too long and audiences get older.
I do not think that there exist popular shonen which do not, in some way, inspire kids or teens. Maybe claymore? Female protag who is rather lonely in the beginning could put some younger boys off.
You brought up another interesting point, Dragon ball did go down the hills at exactly the middle of the buu saga (where Goku got revived again to fight Buu and Gohan was out of the picture). The events from that point were rushed and full of stupid mistakes and outrageous decisions from the characters, completely destroying the build of previous scenes. And yes, at that point Goku became a bit goofier (notice that i'm not saying stupid ^^), even in the manga. In DBS however, Goku (and even Vegeta sometimes) not only became impossibly agitated and goofy, but also openly stupid and unintelligent (using some well known naruto-ish or luffy-ish quotes). I am pretty sure you also agree that DB should have officially ended with the cell saga (it's pinnacle IMO).
About Naruto's case you are right, his situation as a kid was quite sad and touching and would get the reader to sympathise with him (even if the reason as to why Naruto was hated in the first place is quite frustrating and stupid, but maybe that is what increased our sympathy towards him (to see him impress those bunch of ingrates )). But aside from his tragedy, his actual actions were not as inspiring as other characters' (rock lee for example). But the idiocy thing was not exagerated and I never hated Naruto's character for it (ok maybe a little bit ^^). Naruto as a shonen had quite the potential in its first 200 chapters even if the characters and dialogues in general were not that deep or complex. But it was completely wasted eventually...
HxH on the other hand has only one character which is unbearable, one character which all of us hate and wish it stops existing, one character which is in the worst possible trend....I'm talking of course about f***ing Hiatus!!!!
You brought up another interesting point, Dragon ball did go down the hills at exactly the middle of the buu saga (where Goku got revived again to fight Buu and Gohan was out of the picture). The events from that point were rushed and full of stupid mistakes and outrageous decisions from the characters, completely destroying the build of previous scenes. And yes, at that point Goku became a bit goofier (notice that i'm not saying stupid ^^), even in the manga. In DBS however, Goku (and even Vegeta sometimes) not only became impossibly agitated and goofy, but also openly stupid and unintelligent (using some well known naruto-ish or luffy-ish quotes). I am pretty sure you also agree that DB should have officially ended with the cell saga (it's pinnacle IMO).
About Naruto's case you are right, his situation as a kid was quite sad and touching and would get the reader to sympathise with him (even if the reason as to why Naruto was hated in the first place is quite frustrating and stupid, but maybe that is what increased our sympathy towards him (to see him impress those bunch of ingrates )). But aside from his tragedy, his actual actions were not as inspiring as other characters' (rock lee for example). But the idiocy thing was not exagerated and I never hated Naruto's character for it (ok maybe a little bit ^^). Naruto as a shonen had quite the potential in its first 200 chapters even if the characters and dialogues in general were not that deep or complex. But it was completely wasted eventually...
HxH on the other hand has only one character which is unbearable, one character which all of us hate and wish it stops existing, one character which is in the worst possible trend....I'm talking of course about f***ing Hiatus!!!!
Sorry I disagree on that one DBZ was a really nice series, and it captured me at an age in which i didnt notice how goofy it already was (and let's be honest, it always was a funny fighting manga which didnt care too much about logic).
And when that age was gone, i came to dislike it for that. By that point, i just felt it was 'stupid and generic'. That is not fair to the work, but that is how i felt.
What brought me back was actually DBZ abridged. Just by clocking up the nonsense to eleven i actually found it very charming (same for yugioh, really, even if that one is a much worse series).
I don't think i would watch DBZ if it ran now. DBZ took itself serious at some points, but i don't think i could take it serious even at its high points with the freezer saga. I think i would lose interest.
DBS however knows what it is: An aftershow reunion party. It has very serious moments like with the future trunks saga, but on a whole, it is a lot more carefree than even dragon ball.
There is dating involved, some family story fillers, a lot of very bad repetative food jokes and so on. But i like that somehow, i think it's nice to see those characters just enjoying themselves.
And that is what goku clearly does. It even makes somewhat sense: He saved the world so many times that he simply thinks he will managa somehow and rather chases his own goals. He is pretty old by now, it feels like he is retired and wants to have some fun with his life.
DBZ was rushed and toryama could not do what he wanted (having gohan take over) which is a shame. I woulda wanted to see that.
But in DBS, it works for me. I can understand why you feel otherwise tho. There is no way to take DBS serious. it just does a good job still entertaining me.
It is one of the works in which i really enjoy the 'idiot hero'
It's the same with boruto for me. I enjoy boruto a lot while the whole naruto subforum is pretty frustrated
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
@Balfredmcgee
I find it interesting that many people dislike Naruto. I liked Naruto. He was really not my problem with that manga.
I think my biggest problem is when i notice that 'characters are destined to win' no matter how many mistakes they do.
If the rest of the manga is good, that makes it even worse for me. I think i would have kep reading naruto if i would not have liked the sidecast so much.
If i had not care about the other kids, i would not have bothered me that naruto got more and more spotlight (i stopped reading after he met tsunade and learned his attack). I think i would have rather enjoyed naruto if it was about one ninjaguy learning stuff and fighting through the world (a bit like dragon ball).
The same annoyed me in DBZ at some point. I liked the whole cast, but it always came down to Goku and Vegeta (and one times Gohan). I felt like my investment in any other character had been wasted, so a part that is actually good (having a good sidecast) came to bother me.
And that is one thing HxH does not do. The sidecast has relevance and is not eclipsed in every shape and form by the maincharacters.
A good example would be gons fight against genthru.
In that fight, gon went full 'idiot hero' against him by deviating from the plan because he wanted a fight.
And what i would not have liked in most other series, was fine for me there. It was in character, it was a risk that gon knew and had thought about, he suffered for that risk too and it is not common. It was that one time in which HxH had a triumphant complete win as ending of an arc. And if that happens one time, i can dig it.
In other manga, it woulda been more along the lines of 'Biske gets kidnapped and gon and killuah run after her and defeat the bomber alone even if it is almost impossible 2n3'
Sorry I disagree on that one DBZ was a really nice series, and it captured me at an age in which i didnt notice how goofy it already was (and let's be honest, it always was a funny fighting manga which didnt care too much about logic).
And when that age was gone, i came to dislike it for that. By that point, i just felt it was 'stupid and generic'. That is not fair to the work, but that is how i felt.
What brought me back was actually DBZ abridged. Just by clocking up the nonsense to eleven i actually found it very charming (same for yugioh, really, even if that one is a much worse series).
I don't think i would watch DBZ if it ran now. DBZ took itself serious at some points, but i don't think i could take it serious even at its high points with the freezer saga. I think i would lose interest.
DBS however knows what it is: An aftershow reunion party. It has very serious moments like with the future trunks saga, but on a whole, it is a lot more carefree than even dragon ball.
There is dating involved, some family story fillers, a lot of very bad repetative food jokes and so on. But i like that somehow, i think it's nice to see those characters just enjoying themselves.
And that is what goku clearly does. It even makes somewhat sense: He saved the world so many times that he simply thinks he will managa somehow and rather chases his own goals. He is pretty old by now, it feels like he is retired and wants to have some fun with his life.
DBZ was rushed and toryama could not do what he wanted (having gohan take over) which is a shame. I woulda wanted to see that.
But in DBS, it works for me. I can understand why you feel otherwise tho. There is no way to take DBS serious. it just does a good job still entertaining me.
It is one of the works in which i really enjoy the 'idiot hero'
It's the same with boruto for me. I enjoy boruto a lot while the whole naruto subforum is pretty frustrated
Yeah I see where you are coming from. However my point is that there is a huge difference between the characters in the original series and in DBS. For instance now they are agitated and childish, which in itself is not so bad. However when the show emphasizes that the same characters who lived in the original series (with more down to earth personalities) are acting the way they are (especialy goku) is hard to digest for me. If for instance it was pointed out that DBS is actually an alternate universe where adults are childish then it will be perfect ^^
Imagine it like if in the future there would be a spinoff by Togashi called hxhxh, where gon is a stupid idiot who can't calm down, and will be portrayed as such while forgetting his original and real personality. I wouldn't like that ^^
P.S: didn't they troll everybody in Boruto since they are just recapitulating what happened in the movie in the form of monthly manga ? that's quite a ballsy move TBH xD
Yeah I see where you are coming from. However my point is that there is a huge difference between the characters in the original series and in DBS. For instance now they are agitated and childish, which in itself is not so bad. However when the show emphasizes that the same characters who lived in the original series (with more down to earth personalities) are acting the way they are (especialy goku) is hard to digest for me. If for instance it was pointed out that DBS is actually an alternate universe where adults are childish then it will be perfect ^^
Imagine it like if in the future there would be a spinoff by Togashi called hxhxh, where gon is a stupid idiot who can't calm down, and will be portrayed as such while forgetting his original and real personality. I wouldn't like that ^^
P.S: didn't they troll everybody in Boruto since they are just recapitulating what happened in the movie in the form of monthly manga ? that's quite a ballsy move TBH xD
Ya they did, but i did not watch the movie so i dont care
HxHxH would be a problem for me if it was like that because i never stopped taking HxH seriously.
But ya, i know what you mean. I would not like DBS as much if I'd be very fond of Goku. I like the DBS goku more, actually.
But i guess after so many years, it is fine to reimagine some things. Do you know evangelion well? There was evangelion iron maiden, which was a more 'friendship and romance# focussed manga with the same cast.
i actually like that one, too.
Sorry I disagree on that one DBZ was a really nice series, and it captured me at an age in which i didnt notice how goofy it already was (and let's be honest, it always was a funny fighting manga which didnt care too much about logic).
And when that age was gone, i came to dislike it for that. By that point, i just felt it was 'stupid and generic'. That is not fair to the work, but that is how i felt.
What brought me back was actually DBZ abridged. Just by clocking up the nonsense to eleven i actually found it very charming (same for yugioh, really, even if that one is a much worse series).
I don't think i would watch DBZ if it ran now. DBZ took itself serious at some points, but i don't think i could take it serious even at its high points with the freezer saga. I think i would lose interest.
DBS however knows what it is: An aftershow reunion party. It has very serious moments like with the future trunks saga, but on a whole, it is a lot more carefree than even dragon ball.
There is dating involved, some family story fillers, a lot of very bad repetative food jokes and so on. But i like that somehow, i think it's nice to see those characters just enjoying themselves.
And that is what goku clearly does. It even makes somewhat sense: He saved the world so many times that he simply thinks he will managa somehow and rather chases his own goals. He is pretty old by now, it feels like he is retired and wants to have some fun with his life.
DBZ was rushed and toryama could not do what he wanted (having gohan take over) which is a shame. I woulda wanted to see that.
But in DBS, it works for me. I can understand why you feel otherwise tho. There is no way to take DBS serious. it just does a good job still entertaining me.
It is one of the works in which i really enjoy the 'idiot hero'
It's the same with boruto for me. I enjoy boruto a lot while the whole naruto subforum is pretty frustrated
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
@Balfredmcgee
I find it interesting that many people dislike Naruto. I liked Naruto. He was really not my problem with that manga.
I think my biggest problem is when i notice that 'characters are destined to win' no matter how many mistakes they do.
If the rest of the manga is good, that makes it even worse for me. I think i would have kep reading naruto if i would not have liked the sidecast so much.
If i had not care about the other kids, i would not have bothered me that naruto got more and more spotlight (i stopped reading after he met tsunade and learned his attack). I think i would have rather enjoyed naruto if it was about one ninjaguy learning stuff and fighting through the world (a bit like dragon ball).
The same annoyed me in DBZ at some point. I liked the whole cast, but it always came down to Goku and Vegeta (and one times Gohan). I felt like my investment in any other character had been wasted, so a part that is actually good (having a good sidecast) came to bother me.
And that is one thing HxH does not do. The sidecast has relevance and is not eclipsed in every shape and form by the maincharacters.
A good example would be gons fight against genthru.
In that fight, gon went full 'idiot hero' against him by deviating from the plan because he wanted a fight.
And what i would not have liked in most other series, was fine for me there. It was in character, it was a risk that gon knew and had thought about, he suffered for that risk too and it is not common. It was that one time in which HxH had a triumphant complete win as ending of an arc. And if that happens one time, i can dig it.
In other manga, it woulda been more along the lines of 'Biske gets kidnapped and gon and killuah run after her and defeat the bomber alone even if it is almost impossible 2n3'
I mean i can see what you are saying but Naruto is a character that is destined to win,i mean he has several bs convenient plot points that go his way throughout the series. I think where we kinda separate in the way we look at these things is in terms of the side characters. My understanding is that you feel almost hopeless when enjoying the side characters due to them getting far less time than the main characters,while i can understand that,what you are saying is essentially the plight of every series including HunterxHunter. Basically that way of thinking just makes it so that if the main characters are not as good as the rest of the cast it's a problem since they will inevitably get more screen time than the side characters. While i do agree with you that MC's defeating people no matter what is stupid,i feel you may be being a bit cynical here,i mean this is something that happens in almost all media. Not to mention your example of HunterxHunter also happens in many shonen at times too. The MC's suffer for their mistakes as well,now should it happen more often in some series? Sure no doubt and HunterxHunter is better about that than most Shonen,but it's not as if in the big three the MC's always win or that they never get a wake up call because that does happen. To be clear this is coming from someone who has read/watched all of Bleach,Naruto,and One Piece so i don't wanna sound like i have not watched these types of series a lot hahaha. I mean while DB is extremely special to me and is one of my favorite series of all time,in many ways the big three surpass it in terms of writing as well as power scaling. Now none of them are perfect with either one of those,One Piece being the best in both areas imo. They actually have fights that are not based off whose power level is higher,which is probably one of the most simplistic ways of doing fighting series. They have tactics and different matchups can matter,something DB never did. Plus i would argue in many ways they delve into deeper characterization than DB as well. Now from what i have seen in HunterxHunter i can honestly say it's a very unique series in that it does things i just don't see in shonen very often. My point is i can understand where you are coming from with having high expectations too.
I mean i can see what you are saying but Naruto is a character that is destined to win,i mean he has several bs convenient plot points that go his way throughout the series. I think where we kinda separate in the way we look at these things is in terms of the side characters. My understanding is that you feel almost hopeless when enjoying the side characters due to them getting far less time than the main characters,while i can understand that,what you are saying is essentially the plight of every series including HunterxHunter. Basically that way of thinking just makes it so that if the main characters are not as good as the rest of the cast it's a problem since they will inevitably get more screen time than the side characters. While i do agree with you that MC's defeating people no matter what is stupid,i feel you may be being a bit cynical here,i mean this is something that happens in almost all media. Not to mention your example of HunterxHunter also happens in many shonen at times too. The MC's suffer for their mistakes as well,now should it happen more often in some series? Sure no doubt and HunterxHunter is better about that than most Shonen,but it's not as if in the big three the MC's always win or that they never get a wake up call because that does happen. To be clear this is coming from someone who has read/watched all of Bleach,Naruto,and One Piece so i don't wanna sound like i have not watched these types of series a lot hahaha. I mean while DB is extremely special to me and is one of my favorite series of all time,in many ways the big three surpass it in terms of writing as well as power scaling. Now none of them are perfect with either one of those,One Piece being the best in both areas imo. They actually have fights that are not based off whose power level is higher,which is probably one of the most simplistic ways of doing fighting series. They have tactics and different matchups can matter,something DB never did. Plus i would argue in many ways they delve into deeper characterization than DB as well. Now from what i have seen in HunterxHunter i can honestly say it's a very unique series in that it does things i just don't see in shonen very often. My point is i can understand where you are coming from with having high expectations too.
Well, what i meant by fixed path is that i can predict what will happen in the manga, at least when it comes to the important thing.
Like: Yes, Luffy gets defeated sometimes in OP, but i can be about 100% sure that at the end of the arc he will defeat the big bad of said arc.
The big bad does not always present himself early on, and he can defeat luffy beforehand (like crocodile), but, there are things which will definitely happen.
I can be 100% sure that alabasta will not descend into civil war with crocodile winning.
I can be 100% sure that Luffy, at some point, defeats the arc villain.
Every setback is a motivator to try it again and every arc has a very predetermined end.
And the fact that i know this makes the struggles of the sidecast basically irrelevant. They do stuff, some of that stuff is cool, but it has no real relevance.
They have their moments to shine, sure, but those kind of mangas feel a lot like the world revolves arround the maincharacter.
One piece is not as bad as others, tho.
However, i feel like this is completely absent in HxH. At no point did i feel like a character got a 'special maincharacter' bonus.
You said you did not read past yorkshin, so i do not want to spoil, but there will be arcs in which Gon and Killuah are basically irrelevant themselves to the plot and the biggest and coolest fights belong to the sidecast.And that happened simply because it makes a lot of sense that it happened, because they are not as strong as they needed to be to have relevance yet.
There will never be an arc in one piece in which the strawhats say: 'Oh well, the villian is too tough for us, let's set sails and maybe come back later. Whatever, we wanna find one piece, not save that village from that killer guy.'
And that's fine, it would not fit in one piece. And one piece knows what it is. And that is great.
But those moments happen in HxH, and that is exactly why i do like it a lot.
Having maincharacters i do not like is no flaw.I think all three, bleach naruto and OP, have great maincharacters for the story they want to present.
Popular mangaka know their shit. Oda knows very well how to write luffy so he stays popular among the OP readers.
If he would writ eluffy in any other way, fans would not like it.
As someone who almost religiously worshipped one piece until the timeskip, i know what i am talking about there XD
I think i would not be quite as upset with the time after the timeskip if there hadnt been the promise of 'some things will change now',.
The whole point was that they all had to train and become stronger personalities to get through the new world.
But there really was not enough change for me.
Well, what i meant by fixed path is that i can predict what will happen in the manga, at least when it comes to the important thing.
Like: Yes, Luffy gets defeated sometimes in OP, but i can be about 100% sure that at the end of the arc he will defeat the big bad of said arc.
The big bad does not always present himself early on, and he can defeat luffy beforehand (like crocodile), but, there are things which will definitely happen.
I can be 100% sure that alabasta will not descend into civil war with crocodile winning.
I can be 100% sure that Luffy, at some point, defeats the arc villain.
Every setback is a motivator to try it again and every arc has a very predetermined end.
And the fact that i know this makes the struggles of the sidecast basically irrelevant. They do stuff, some of that stuff is cool, but it has no real relevance.
They have their moments to shine, sure, but those kind of mangas feel a lot like the world revolves arround the maincharacter.
One piece is not as bad as others, tho.
However, i feel like this is completely absent in HxH. At no point did i feel like a character got a 'special maincharacter' bonus.
You said you did not read past yorkshin, so i do not want to spoil, but there will be arcs in which Gon and Killuah are basically irrelevant themselves to the plot and the biggest and coolest fights belong to the sidecast.And that happened simply because it makes a lot of sense that it happened, because they are not as strong as they needed to be to have relevance yet.
There will never be an arc in one piece in which the strawhats say: 'Oh well, the villian is too tough for us, let's set sails and maybe come back later. Whatever, we wanna find one piece, not save that village from that killer guy.'
And that's fine, it would not fit in one piece. And one piece knows what it is. And that is great.
But those moments happen in HxH, and that is exactly why i do like it a lot.
Having maincharacters i do not like is no flaw.I think all three, bleach naruto and OP, have great maincharacters for the story they want to present.
Popular mangaka know their shit. Oda knows very well how to write luffy so he stays popular among the OP readers.
If he would writ eluffy in any other way, fans would not like it.
As someone who almost religiously worshipped one piece until the timeskip, i know what i am talking about there XD
I think i would not be quite as upset with the time after the timeskip if there hadnt been the promise of 'some things will change now',.
The whole point was that they all had to train and become stronger personalities to get through the new world.
But there really was not enough change for me.
I want to be clear when i said that i watched/read all of them i did not mean to infer i knew better than you,just wanted to point out that i did indeed follow them all to conclusion or in One Piece's case the current stuff haha. I get where you are coming from now a bit better,and while i don't really judge things as harshly as that,i certainly respect the place you are coming from. You must not like a lot of the USA media either then huh lol? You are correct that HunterxHunter is more unpredictable no doubt,it is very unique in that aspect. Like i have said i am enjoying it a great deal for how different it is from most anime/manga i have watched/read. I personally don't think the big three MC's are great,they have an appeal no doubt,but after seeing many other Shonen,i think they could be better. That however does not hamper my enjoyment of them too much though,because they truly do have many great and very interesting moments in them. For me personally i enjoy side characters not just for what they do in the overall plot,but how they are characterized. Even if they only do a few things,sometimes those things can be huge in helping towards the goal of the arc they are in. That's good enough for me personally,but as you can tell i am more of a villain and side character guy,rather than an MC fan. I do enjoy some MC's a lot,for example Kaneki has been quite solid so far from what i have watched/read in Tokyo Ghoul. Lelouch from Code Geass is also a favorite of mine,as well as Okabe from Steins Gate. Of course Saitama from OPM is also amazing. I even enjoy Gon more than many MC's because while he is simple he actually uses tactics a lot of times to win fights.
Ya they did, but i did not watch the movie so i dont care
HxHxH would be a problem for me if it was like that because i never stopped taking HxH seriously.
But ya, i know what you mean. I would not like DBS as much if I'd be very fond of Goku. I like the DBS goku more, actually.
But i guess after so many years, it is fine to reimagine some things. Do you know evangelion well? There was evangelion iron maiden, which was a more 'friendship and romance# focussed manga with the same cast.
i actually like that one, too.
Yeah I know Evangelion, too much negativity and sadness going on there. So if they put the same cast with the same personalities as before into another concept, I would also be happy to watch it.
In DBS for instance, if they put the exact same old Goku from the original series with the exact personality he had, but then he would transform gradually into his stupid childish version, then that would not be a problem for me, since that would be counted as character development. It's true that I like Goku, but it's because he had the right traits to be liked
Same with Gon, I like him because not only he's so original, but also since he has the traits of somebody who you would like easily. He basically convinces you for that. Same with Goku
@uberfayt Oh I see, then you put a lot of emphasis on canon. I can understand it then.
Ya I do that too with works i care about. I was supermad when metroid another M had a version of samus which in my opinion went against the other games personifcation of her.
The game was not horrible, but i just could not enjoy it.
Ya, it is the same with american TV series. I dunno how many of those you have watched, but there were series i genuinely enjoyed but the second i found the mainchar to be a mary sue, i stopped watching them. Because i knew what would happen on the short or longterm.
For example, i liked suits (that lawyer show) and sherlock (the british homes movie series), but the maincharacters had no struggles i could take series.
They only had things of which i knew were things someone in a writer's room thought about and said 'oh ya, let's give him some struggle to fill screentime and have drama'.
Actually, elementary (an american sherlock homes adaptation) and sherlock are fine examples.
Both are about sherlock holmes who is super smart and solves cases by pure genius.
But there are big differences:
In Sherlock, he is undisputedly the best man ever. Period. Noone comes close to him except maybe his brother who focusses on other things and moriarty. But aside from that? his sidekick watson is never even allowed to have some comeuppance. He can run after sherlock and be some moral grounding. But that's it. Sherlock knows everything better. He can also fight better. He is better with the ladies. Sherlock is better than anyone else and whoever doubts that will be beaten by sherlock or, if it is a woman, fucked by sherlock. And that's it. And i find that teremendously boring. Sherlock basically bullies people who are not as smart as him and always gets his way no matter what he does. Because he is the maincharacter.
In Elementary, it is different. He is antisocial, he is brilliant and often gets his way due to capability. Yes. But not always. He struggles with drug abuse (and i mean struggle like 'going to therapy' and having a hard time keeping himself clean), he admits to being lonely sometimes, he sometimes genuinely screws up so the cops have to take over or talk sense into him.
And watson gradually learns how to solve cases on her own, supporting him sometimes with crucial ideas or even has a better theory on what happened.
Because she got better and better over the course of the seasons since he teached her.
They are a team.
And i find that much more interesting, to have different characters who do different approaches, without the work only valuing exactly one of them.
And that is what i see in HxH and not in other shonen. It is not clear who will win in HxH. Is it someone with pure strength like uvorgin? Or a trickster such as chrollo? Or intrigue spinners like pariston (i dont wanna spoil who that guy is, tho)?
The approach of the person who gets 'their way' in a given arc or at least 'does not lose' is very different in any given arc.
In most shonen, the mainchar gets some powerup, and after some prior quarrels, it comes down to a one on one fistfight.
It's some 'yo bully. here i stand. come at me. get some'. That is very appealing at times, because who does not like a proper duel with honesty and all that?
But that is it, mostly. That is the climax of most arcs in most shonen. Naruto's finale shaked that up a bit, that was a teameffort even in the end. But you get the idea.
And the thing i like about HxH that it does not do that. There is exactly one arc which is solved by simple 1n1 fistfights. And that's fine. If it is one time, i can dig it.
@uberfayt Oh I see, then you put a lot of emphasis on canon. I can understand it then.
Ya I do that too with works i care about. I was supermad when metroid another M had a version of samus which in my opinion went against the other games personifcation of her.
The game was not horrible, but i just could not enjoy it.
Ya, it is the same with american TV series. I dunno how many of those you have watched, but there were series i genuinely enjoyed but the second i found the mainchar to be a mary sue, i stopped watching them. Because i knew what would happen on the short or longterm.
For example, i liked suits (that lawyer show) and sherlock (the british homes movie series), but the maincharacters had no struggles i could take series.
They only had things of which i knew were things someone in a writer's room thought about and said 'oh ya, let's give him some struggle to fill screentime and have drama'.
Actually, elementary (an american sherlock homes adaptation) and sherlock are fine examples.
Both are about sherlock holmes who is super smart and solves cases by pure genius.
But there are big differences:
In Sherlock, he is undisputedly the best man ever. Period. Noone comes close to him except maybe his brother who focusses on other things and moriarty. But aside from that? his sidekick watson is never even allowed to have some comeuppance. He can run after sherlock and be some moral grounding. But that's it. Sherlock knows everything better. He can also fight better. He is better with the ladies. Sherlock is better than anyone else and whoever doubts that will be beaten by sherlock or, if it is a woman, fucked by sherlock. And that's it. And i find that teremendously boring. Sherlock basically bullies people who are not as smart as him and always gets his way no matter what he does. Because he is the maincharacter.
In Elementary, it is different. He is antisocial, he is brilliant and often gets his way due to capability. Yes. But not always. He struggles with drug abuse (and i mean struggle like 'going to therapy' and having a hard time keeping himself clean), he admits to being lonely sometimes, he sometimes genuinely screws up so the cops have to take over or talk sense into him.
And watson gradually learns how to solve cases on her own, supporting him sometimes with crucial ideas or even has a better theory on what happened.
Because she got better and better over the course of the seasons since he teached her.
They are a team.
And i find that much more interesting, to have different characters who do different approaches, without the work only valuing exactly one of them.
And that is what i see in HxH and not in other shonen. It is not clear who will win in HxH. Is it someone with pure strength like uvorgin? Or a trickster such as chrollo? Or intrigue spinners like pariston (i dont wanna spoil who that guy is, tho)?
The approach of the person who gets 'their way' in a given arc or at least 'does not lose' is very different in any given arc.
In most shonen, the mainchar gets some powerup, and after some prior quarrels, it comes down to a one on one fistfight.
It's some 'yo bully. here i stand. come at me. get some'. That is very appealing at times, because who does not like a proper duel with honesty and all that?
But that is it, mostly. That is the climax of most arcs in most shonen. Naruto's finale shaked that up a bit, that was a teameffort even in the end. But you get the idea.
And the thing i like about HxH that it does not do that. There is exactly one arc which is solved by simple 1n1 fistfights. And that's fine. If it is one time, i can dig it.
Yeah i get you. I have also watched Sherlock and i do enjoy it a lot personally,the plots are pretty solid and he is an enjoyable character to watch for me. I personally prefer anime/manga to most tv series,they both have similer problems with sometimes not being creative enough or like you said the MC just being too focused upon or too broken or whatever. I think my taste is just less rigid,but honestly i don't blame you for being cynical in a sense when it comes to modern media,it irritates me a lot as well at times lol. Glad to have this discussion with you man,and i will be hanging around the HunterxHunter forum more often from now on,as i am also anticipating the return of the manga quite a bit. I just need to catch up completely!!!! hahaha.
Yeah i get you. I have also watched Sherlock and i do enjoy it a lot personally,the plots are pretty solid and he is an enjoyable character to watch for me. I personally prefer anime/manga to most tv series,they both have similer problems with sometimes not being creative enough or like you said the MC just being too focused upon or too broken or whatever. I think my taste is just less rigid,but honestly i don't blame you for being cynical in a sense when it comes to modern media,it irritates me a lot as well at times lol. Glad to have this discussion with you man,and i will be hanging around the HunterxHunter forum more often from now on,as i am also anticipating the return of the manga quite a bit. I just need to catch up completely!!!! hahaha.
Ya you definitely need to catch up
If you stopped reading just before greed island, the best is yet to come (while greed island is more like a nice breather, the arc after that is pretty brutal).
Ya you definitely need to catch up
If you stopped reading just before greed island, the best is yet to come (while greed island is more like a nice breather, the arc after that is pretty brutal).
I am watching the HunterxHunter 2011 anime actually,then i plan on reading the manga. Yorknew was hype,the Phantom Troupe are probably my favorite aspect of the series plus Hisoka. I am looking forward to the Chimera ant arc though.
I am watching the HunterxHunter 2011 anime actually,then i plan on reading the manga. Yorknew was hype,the Phantom Troupe are probably my favorite aspect of the series plus Hisoka. I am looking forward to the Chimera ant arc though.
Ya, i guess Yorknew was the first highpoint of the series which 'wowed' people, similar to alabasta in one piece.
The point at which most people said 'alright, this series is gonna be REALLY good'.
The arc following it is not as warmly received by many, but i still liked it a lot. It is more carefree, thus with less great moment's like the spider invasion, but that can be a nice change of pace (or, depending on whom you ask, rather boring).
But then, the chimera ant arcs puts 'emotional moments' one level higher, really.
Ya, i guess Yorknew was the first highpoint of the series which 'wowed' people, similar to alabasta in one piece.
The point at which most people said 'alright, this series is gonna be REALLY good'.
The arc following it is not as warmly received by many, but i still liked it a lot. It is more carefree, thus with less great moment's like the spider invasion, but that can be a nice change of pace (or, depending on whom you ask, rather boring).
But then, the chimera ant arcs puts 'emotional moments' one level higher, really.
I am hyped then,yeah so far i have thought the Greed island arc is just different. It's not bad though at all,just interesting is how i would put it. I also agree there is always an arc that makes a solid series a great series and Yorknew is that arc imo.
)). But aside from his tragedy, his actual actions were not as inspiring as other characters' (rock lee for example). But the idiocy thing was not exagerated and I never hated Naruto's character for it (ok maybe a little bit ^^). Naruto as a shonen had quite the potential in its first 200 chapters even if the characters and dialogues in general were not that deep or complex. But it was completely wasted eventually...
