I believe both of them encountering Boss hearing what he said YET arriving at different solutions is something SIU is trying to accentuate. The thought of control being nebulous.
We see a similar theme with Yas controlling the Houndkin. What is the nature of control exactly and is there such a thing a “truly pure control”???
I think in a way the tower “accepting what it needs” in Baam is a refutation of Zahard’s “control” or even Kingship...
You're kind of making my point again. So, do you suggest Zahard is simply inept? It didn't seem he KNEW WHERE BAAM WAS until Baam showed up on the radar on the data floor - at which point Zahard went, unencumbered and unrestrained, straight there to kill him (or at least once he recognized him). Once he was warped away, it seems he was off Zahard's radar again. Otherwise maybe he'd warp right to him and kill him again, just like he already tried once (without any interference by an admin mind you). There was nothing - no entity in the tower to include the admin - there to stop him.
Occam's Razor, and the story itself, seems to imply Zahard can see fate, but he's not entirely omniscient.
So, if admin DIDN'T STOP HIM ONCE, maybe that's not the issue. Maybe there's more to it like Zahard has limited chances without going back into slumber (Apocalypse). Or maybe he isn't all himself. Etc etc etc... but it doesn't seem to be admin specifically. Though it COULD BE.
I'm not sure that was Zahard... do you know? Further, Zahard wanted to or 'had to' go to Enne himself. And he wanted to or 'had to' put Khell down. i.e., Zahard doesn't entirely rely on or have to use proxies - though they are effective. Yet, he SOUGHT OUT TO KILL BAAM OUTRIGHT HIMSELF. So, we know he is, in fact, motivated to kill Baam. And we know if the opportunity arises, he very well could try again. So, again, full-circle now, why hasn't he - what exactly is stopping him? It quite simply, so far, doesn't seem to be admin or any rules of rankers engaging with regulars.
You have in fact posted opinion as fact. Go look at your first response post. I only quoted you in an inquiry that was very much speculation, with attempts to address points I think you made that aren't story-backed (specifically that Admin have stopped Zahard from killing Baam). The rest is history. Regardless, if you reply to me but you argue against things I haven't said (strawman) or insist on discussing something that isn't central to my response, or repeat opinion as fact, or gloss over obvious lore (Enryu doesn't really care one way or another about Zahard, what??), then I can't but help wonder why. It's in no way personal to YOU - I disagree with people all the time. Often I turn around and agree with their next post. So, why should I single you out? Could it be that I'm responding to the way your respond to me??
Cha and Dowon following different paths, but will he really go with Baam or will he change idea because of Dowon? Maybe he will try to dissuade her in fighting Baam.
Doesn't it seem tangentially relevant - why Zahard can send rankers to attack Baam but seemingly not go himself? I support you moving the posts otherwise.
Um, no. He - real world Zahard - sent himself there (in digital format presumably). And he was able to do so remotely. The Zahard that choked out Baam was not a safeguard already on the floor. He was alerted to what was happening on the floor. Regardless, we know he went to Khell and probably Enne. And we know Rankers can fight Baam in certain areas. So what's the difference with Zahard?
Yea... my LONG post with pointed questions. Why don't you answer the questions posed instead of reiterating what I've already addressed? It's a maddening way of communicating really.
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Here's a simple question: WHEN have we seen admin stopping Zahard, ever?
I addressed that. Regardless of surprise or initial intent... nothing stood to stop him. Period. And no admin stopped him in the other events listed.
Um, no. He - real world Zahard - sent himself there (in digital format presumably). And he was able to do so remotely. The Zahard that choked out Baam was not a safeguard already on the floor. He was alerted to what was happening on the floor. Regardless, we know he went to Khell and probably Enne. And we know Rankers can fight Baam in certain areas. So what's the difference with Zahard?
Yea... my LONG post with pointed questions. Why don't you answer the questions posed instead of reiterating what I've already addressed? It's a maddening way of communicating really.
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Here's a simple question: WHEN have we seen admin stopping Zahard, ever?
Firstly I said I didn’t read it to make sure you didn’t expect a response to those questions in that post.
Second show me where it says it is the full Zahard descending? IIRC it was stated it was just a projection of Zahard and he didn’t actually descend from where he was. If you show me it’s REALLY him I’ll take that as him not being restricted.
I would respectfully address those with time but as you state it usually is just a re-addressing of something you’ve already said.
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When have we really seen Zahard move throughout the tower?
@cash2088 Please list ANY event where Zahard has been limited by an admin at any point in time. On the contrary, I can list multiple times he did pretty much what he wanted unrestricted.
lol, so you answer a question with another question. Are you a politician? Convenient side-step.
I'll answer that:
AT LEAST:
* Zahard has projected himself directly into the data floor from wherever in the tower he was. No time limit, no restraints from admin, probably not even a key. And we didn't see an admin follow him. For all we know admin can't access the data floor either. Is this something he can do that admin cannot? And if they can stop him, but didn't, that underscores my point.
* Zahard fought Khell. We don't know the floor, but it'd be awfully convenient if it were on 134F. Weren't we told Zahard came to HIM?
* Zahard, it is strongly implied, went to help/subdue Enne when she rampaged because no one else strong enough was getting it done, seemingly (again, strongly hinted and even told that was the legend). Are all these events ONLY happening on 134F? Or is it more likely that Enne, on the RUN, wasn't in fact on Zahard's final floor out of convenience? Occam's Razor says she was somewhere else.
So. Do we have any example of Zahard being limited from leaving his floor? Concrete, explicit examples? Has he EVER been shown or have we been told of any example of him not being able to leave the floor or fight person X, Y, or Z should he choose?
@cash2088 Please list ANY event where Zahard has been limited by an admin at any point in time. On the contrary, I can list multiple times he did pretty much what he wanted unrestricted.
A Chosen Regular (선별인원, 選別人員, seonbyeolinwon; "selected member"), more commonly known as simply a Regular, is an individual chosen by Headon and permitted by the Zahard Empire to climb the Tower. In the current political system, Headon, Guardian of the 1st Floor, visits several parts of the...
The Hidden Floor (숨겨진 층, Sumgyeojin Cheung) is an imaginary virtual data world located deep inside the Hell Train. Only the Regulars who have cleared the entire Hell Express can leave their data in the Hidden Floor.[1] People who have cleared the train and entered the hidden floor will be called...
towerofgod.fandom.com
Again, go to trivia it states “Zahard transferred part of his present data”
With two mirrors, I guess we have to come to a consensus whether any of the regulars were “full data” or “partial”.... Seeing as the floor doesn’t really exist in the real world it is up to interpretation whether this is “descending” at all.
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And YES it is my argument that someone of Zahard’s status and power can’t just roam and interact with regulars freely. That is exactly my argument, so when I ask in the same manner you have, show me where Zahard has just moved freely in regards to attacking regulars and you cannot.
So we can argue the arbitrary but the fact is seeing as he can’t kill admins he is subject to their rules. Now, if he has a contract that changes that it hasn’t been shown nor mentioned. And it would seem Zahard is inept as it’s been 2 years and some change yet he’s still sending
minions...
That was a distinction of yours right? And the need for the train station fiasco?
There would be no need to manipulate fate as Zahard showing up would have had 100% success in killing Baam and all his cohorts... So why didn’t he?
Restricted in some capacity? I’ll assume so. To me it matters not why just that he is. If it comes to be not the admins, cool. If it is... cool.
But I’d say the admins being introduced as above Zahard has a reason.
Maybe after becoming a King he had an imposed rule of never interfering with regulars in his true self. That could have led to the existence of Floor Tests (which would have ratted out Bam If the testers of 2F were not FUG related), and the need for army Rankers to do his dirty work. All probably boils down to the unknown clauses in his Kingship contract, SIU can easily dump all plot needed explamations of Jahad's behavior that would be contrary to obvious pragmatic reasoning. Lol
First, SIU cuts to a reaction shot of Androssi during the hidden floor scene wherein either YHS or "Bane" is explaining that the big breeders' true bodies are located somewhere else entirely. I know this is reading a lot into a little, but I take this as a hint of Zahard doing something similar (especially since—later on—we see Karaka protecting his "heart" in the same way).
Second, Zahard explains that he'd been wanting for some time already to get back inside the hidden floor (and thus the "brilliant scheme" to crash it was really "just-as-planned"). If you believe what Zahard says, it implies that there are things Zahard can't do (for whatever reason), and also introduces a mystery—for what purpose did he want to get back into the mirror (and then destroy it, it seems?).
Ignoring that Zahard seemingly couldn't just break into the hidden floor on his own, you can hand-wave away his activity on that floor as "once on the hidden floor you can do what you want, because it's not really real...". Not satisfying, but it works.
For a bigger theory, though, my own opinion is that Zahard playing a long game of malicious compliance vis-a-vis his king contract: something like he gets to be king, but at the cost of accepting some undesirable ultimate destiny (death, being deposed, being succeeded, who knows really). On this theory, he's basically allowed to do anything he wants, but only if it still leaves the door open to that destiny.
So for sake of argument, he can't just kill Baam, personally, on any floor—1F, 2F, or whatever floor they're at now—because that'd be too effective. Likewise he can't destroy the key to the tower—that'd actually work!—but he can split it into halves, then split one half into a bunch of rings, the other half into a bunch of cursed weapons, spread those fragments far-and-wide, and probably thereby extend his reign by, say, few deca-millennia. End result is Zahard's actions are like all about some extreme rules-lawyering—lawyering seemingly-informed by some kind of prescience/precognition/whatever.
Not saying I love it as a story element, but that's my working theory as to what SIU's doing with Zahard. As a theory it can explain everything, which is both both good and bad: it's comprehensive but also over-powerful and thus hard to falsify (at least until SIU explains more about Zahard).
First, SIU cuts to a reaction shot of Androssi during the hidden floor scene wherein either YHS or "Bane" is explaining that the big breeders' true bodies are located somewhere else entirely. I know this is reading a lot into a little, but I take this as a hint of Zahard doing something similar (especially since—later on—we see Karaka protecting his "heart" in the same way).
Second, Zahard explains that he'd been wanting for some time already to get back inside the hidden floor (and thus the "brilliant scheme" to crash it was really "just-as-planned"). If you believe what Zahard says, it implies that there are things Zahard can't do (for whatever reason), and also introduces a mystery—for what purpose did he want to get back into the mirror (and then destroy it, it seems?).
Ignoring that Zahard seemingly couldn't just break into the hidden floor on his own, you can hand-wave away his activity on that floor as "once on the hidden floor you can do what you want, because it's not really real...". Not satisfying, but it works.
This seems to imply a bit more though. For one the data floor is unlike any other floor. Not just anyone can go there, particularly not people that have already ranked - and seemingly a King (without a crack being opened internally). OK, so it was 'just as planned' - this seems to indicate that even the exceedingly difficult Zahard has a workaround for.
And what was keeping him out exactly? Mechanics, or an admin? If the later, we'd have confirmation they limit him (albeit for a special floor), but that wouldn't explain how an admin couldn't keep him out if he weren't supposed to be there, or keep him from doing what he wanted once inside - so which is it, can an admin keep him down and fail to constrain him once inside or are they turning a blind eye? There are, however, other options such as they just don't give a shit, but that would also seem to support the notion that they aren't actively working to limit Zahard's movements.
In short, if Zahard was capable of breaching the floor against the admin's wishes, and no admin could follow him in to stop him nor exist inside the floor in digital format to keep him from killing, say, whoever he wants, then Zahard doesn't seem that limited (by admin) to do what he wants after all. Other than things that defy the bounds of physics in the tower, which we see he had an app for that. And he got inside *immediately* and even the floor couldn't handle his presence.
For a bigger theory, though, my own opinion is that Zahard playing a long game of malicious compliance vis-a-vis his king contract: something like he gets to be king, but at the cost of accepting some undesirable ultimate destiny (death, being deposed, being succeeded, who knows really). On this theory, he's basically allowed to do anything he wants, but only if it still leaves the door open to that destiny.
100% agree Zahard has given up something - his humanity, his true body, his ability to climb or leave the tower, whatever it was - it was a poison apple/Midas' Touch type of scenario IMO. I don't think the admin telling Baam that contracts are 'shackles' was just a one-off allusion. I think they all are limiting in some form, but that's just my current prediction.
So for sake of argument, he can't just kill Baam, personally, on any floor—1F, 2F, or whatever floor they're at now—because that'd be too effective. Likewise he can't destroy the key to the tower—that'd actually work!—but he can split it into halves, then split one half into a bunch of rings, the other half into a bunch of cursed weapons, spread those fragments far-and-wide, and probably thereby extend his reign by, say, few deca-millennia. End result is Zahard's actions are like all about some extreme rules-lawyering—lawyering seemingly-informed by some kind of prescience/precognition/whatever.
Not saying I love it as a story element, but that's my working theory as to what SIU's doing with Zahard. As a theory it can explain everything, which is both both good and bad: it's comprehensive but also over-powerful and thus hard to falsify (at least until SIU explains more about Zahard).
Well, of course he can't just murk the MC due to plot reasons. Though we usually have *concrete* reasons as to why that's the case. IF Zahard could free-roam and didn't put an upstart like Baam down himself but he had the opportunity it wouldn't make much sense. That's why I suggest there's something more to it. Hell, maybe Zahard was moved by his data self and wants a challenge so this is all in an effort to see if Baam has the balls. IDK, but I don't see it as the defacto and literal king of the castle not being able to go to another floor arbitrarily.
Maybe after becoming a King he had an imposed rule of never interfering with regulars in his true self. That could have led to the existence of Floor Tests (which would have ratted out Bam If the testers of 2F were not FUG related), and the need for army Rankers to do his dirty work. All probably boils down to the unknown clauses in his Kingship contract, SIU can easily dump all plot needed explamations of Jahad's behavior that would be contrary to obvious pragmatic reasoning. Lol
- got into data floor - no one stopped him going in (though he shouldn't have been able to do). No admin. No admin stopped his rampage or facing a regular - or even killing - a regular once there. Maybe he just projected his life force as opposed to showing up physically - but that's kind of how you enter the data floor anyways, effectively it's the same. It's something even Gustang could not do. Gustang, as you know, is someone that can traverse the tower, even going to the FoD which is off-limits. Zahard exceeding Gustang's reach, and admin either a) couldn't stop him or b) didn't care. Which flies in the face of your theory they are actively keeping him from movement.
- *probably* got involved with capturing Enne, it has been rumored as much. Enne, who was missing and on the run (for months) until the princesses caught up with her to subdue her. Now, it is possible she was hiding on Zahard's floor, 134F, but if she was seeking to RUN that wouldn't be very likely. More likely she was ANY OTHER FLOOR if she was trying to avoid Zahard but the floor of his kingship. No, not guaranteed, but... Occam's Razor and all that. IF Zahard had to personally intervene as we have been lead to believe of the legend (why insert this if no bit of truth?) then that would require leaving his floor.
- He KILLED BAAM (the first time), personally. Baam then, technically a regular as having been born in the tower. That's right, king Zahard killed an (at the time) REGULAR. As someone that was already crowned KING OF THE TOWER. And where did this happen? Arlen was in hiding as a *fugitive*. A big LOL if you also she was 'hiding' (from Zahard... with her newborn) on the only floor Zahard could move in. Baam was born (and with 99.99% certainty killed) on the FoD. Zahard killed him as a newborn, or close to it. Zahard, a king, went to the FoD, in person, and killed a regular, and not an admin lifted a finger against him. I mean, really, this one is case-closed. Fact: Zahard can and has gone to other floors since becoming king. And approached and killed at least on regular. Period.
Further:
- Zahard indicates he can play around with fate himself. He can warp even fate... kind of hard to do if your hands are tied figuratively and you don't have any ability to move in the tower.
- Zahard has been described as 'OVERARCHING ruler' of floors 2-134 (collectively 'Zahard's floors'). What kind of ruler above all other rulers can't even travel to the floors he rules over?
- Kallavan had encountered Zahard and believes he is OMNIPOTENT. Now, while Kallavan is a Z fanboy he doesn't strike me as stupid. How 'omni' or 'potent' can one be if you can't even leave your own house?
And admin could care less if FUG (subordinates to them in power) cares or not - if they are going to interfere they would have, which we HAVE NOT seen. In fact, we have seen regulars attacked by rankers without admin interference over and over now. And even ranker's of Zahard's army, so not just FUG. Clearly, the rules are not enforced in some areas (and possibly depending on who you are/represent). Hence, if any other ranker can interact/fight with Baam or any other regular then Zahard could as well. Just like he did TWICE with Baam now (and one was in the 'real world' floor), and like how FUG and Z rankers are doing. This isn't some hard rule, entirely enforced, or unlimited in its scope - certain areas are 'anything goes'. And it's even likely that Zahard's forces get to bend the rules a bit more than your average ranker too.
Not sure why he'd be 'watched' by the admin any more than any other irregular or FH. Gustang has free abilities to go anywhere, the other FH's most certainly do as well. It is pure head-cannon conjecture to say that Zahard is watched any more or less.
It is also just possible, but more likely, as king he can do whatever he wants - to include ditching his guard or watchful eyes and even teleport wherever he wants to go.
Except we have EVERY indication that he CAN: legend that he has (Enne), and outright confirmation that he has (Baam on FoD), and ZERO indication that he can't. Again, I ask you other than opinion do you have ANY evidence that Zahard is limited to his travel based on anything in the story thus far??
That is exactly my argument, so when I ask in the same manner you have, show me where Zahard has just moved freely in regards to attacking regulars and you cannot.
Only I have, several times now. Yet you haven't bothered to use ANY bit of the story to support your supposition that he cannot move to other floors. It hasn't even been hinted at.
Gustang, a lesser being, is subject to their rules and can freely move throughout the tower. You don't have to be able to kill admin to move to other floors! Rankers have more freedom than regulars, and Zahard is the KING of the rankers.... Do you have ANY evidence Zahard, as king, is subject to MORE rules by the admin than a lesser being? Again, Occam's Razor would indicate LESS restrictions as someone with more authority.
That's exactly what I was speculating about. But it doesn't seem to be that he's limited from going to another floor. It has to be SOMETHING ELSE. He's 'healing' or self-limited, or tempting fate, or bored, or on an adventure, or seeing how this plays out, or in another body, or whatever. But being limited to floor travel is the least likely of reasons.
Admin are ALSO above all rankers - that can move about freely. Zahard too is above all rankers - but can't move about freely? Logic fail.
========================
admin: "Here - we'll make you KING - of the entire tower! - you'll have more authority, privileges, and power than anyone else in the tower! Deal?"
Zahard: "Sure, but can I travel?"
admin: "No. You can do whatever you want! But only in your room..."
Zahard: "You said more power than anyone else? Am I not able to travel as the King when others can travel freely??"
admin: "Oh, you are more powerful and have total authority than anyone else. Except you don't. You just can't do more than them, and we'll restrict you more than them, and micromanage you more than them..."
Zahard: "Sign me up!"
This seems to imply a bit more though. For one the data floor is unlike any other floor. Not just anyone can go there, particularly not people that have already ranked - and seemingly a King (without a crack being opened internally). OK, so it was 'just as planned' - this seems to indicate that even the exceedingly difficult Zahard has a workaround for.
And what was keeping him out exactly? Mechanics, or an admin? If the later, we'd have confirmation they limit him (albeit for a special floor), but that wouldn't explain how an admin couldn't keep him out if he weren't supposed to be there, or keep him from doing what he wanted once inside - so which is it, can an admin keep him down and fail to constrain him once inside or are they turning a blind eye? There are, however, other options such as they just don't give a shit, but that would also seem to support the notion that they aren't actively working to limit Zahard's movements.
In short, if Zahard was capable of breaching the floor against the admin's wishes, and no admin could follow him in to stop him nor exist inside the floor in digital format to keep him from killing, say, whoever he wants, then Zahard doesn't seem that limited (by admin) to do what he wants after all. Other than things that defy the bounds of physics in the tower, which we see he had an app for that. And he got inside *immediately* and even the floor couldn't handle his presence.
100% agree Zahard has given up something - his humanity, his true body, his ability to climb or leave the tower, whatever it was - it was a poison apple/Midas' Touch type of scenario IMO. I don't think the admin telling Baam that contracts are 'shackles' was just a one-off allusion. I think they all are limiting in some form, but that's just my current prediction.
Well, of course he can't just murk the MC due to plot reasons. Though we usually have *concrete* reasons as to why that's the case. IF Zahard could free-roam and didn't put an upstart like Baam down himself but he had the opportunity it wouldn't make much sense. That's why I suggest there's something more to it. Hell, maybe Zahard was moved by his data self and wants a challenge so this is all in an effort to see if Baam has the balls. IDK, but I don't see it as the defacto and literal king of the castle not being able to go to another floor arbitrarily.
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I think self-limiting his power makes more sense. Though we've seen him willing to break that once he found Baam on the data floor...
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As you are aware of I already itemized several:
- got into data floor - no one stopped him going in (though he shouldn't have been able to do). No admin. No admin stopped his rampage or facing a regular - or even killing - a regular once there. Maybe he just projected his life force as opposed to showing up physically - but that's kind of how you enter the data floor anyways, effectively it's the same. It's something even Gustang could not do. Gustang, as you know, is someone that can traverse the tower, even going to the FoD which is off-limits. Zahard exceeding Gustang's reach, and admin either a) couldn't stop him or b) didn't care. Which flies in the face of your theory they are actively keeping him from movement.
- *probably* got involved with capturing Enne, it has been rumored as much. Enne, who was missing and on the run (for months) until the princesses caught up with her to subdue her. Now, it is possible she was hiding on Zahard's floor, 134F, but if she was seeking to RUN that wouldn't be very likely. More likely she was ANY OTHER FLOOR if she was trying to avoid Zahard but the floor of his kingship. No, not guaranteed, but... Occam's Razor and all that. IF Zahard had to personally intervene as we have been lead to believe of the legend (why insert this if no bit of truth?) then that would require leaving his floor.
- He KILLED BAAM (the first time), personally. Baam then, technically a regular as having been born in the tower. That's right, king Zahard killed an (at the time) REGULAR. As someone that was already crowned KING OF THE TOWER. And where did this happen? Arlen was in hiding as a *fugitive*. A big LOL if you also she was 'hiding' (from Zahard... with her newborn) on the only floor Zahard could move in. Baam was born (and with 99.99% certainty killed) on the FoD. Zahard killed him as a newborn, or close to it. Zahard, a king, went to the FoD, in person, and killed a regular, and not an admin lifted a finger against him. I mean, really, this one is case-closed. Fact: Zahard can and has gone to other floors since becoming king. And approached and killed at least on regular. Period.
Further:
- Zahard indicates he can play around with fate himself. He can warp even fate... kind of hard to do if your hands are tied figuratively and you don't have any ability to move in the tower.
- Zahard has been described as 'OVERARCHING ruler' of floors 2-134 (collectively 'Zahard's floors'). What kind of ruler above all other rulers can't even travel to the floors he rules over?
- Kallavan had encountered Zahard and believes he is OMNIPOTENT. Now, while Kallavan is a Z fanboy he doesn't strike me as stupid. How 'omni' or 'potent' can one be if you can't even leave your own house?
And admin could care less if FUG (subordinates to them in power) cares or not - if they are going to interfere they would have, which we HAVE NOT seen. In fact, we have seen regulars attacked by rankers without admin interference over and over now. And even ranker's of Zahard's army, so not just FUG. Clearly, the rules are not enforced in some areas (and possibly depending on who you are/represent). Hence, if any other ranker can interact/fight with Baam or any other regular then Zahard could as well. Just like he did TWICE with Baam now (and one was in the 'real world' floor), and like how FUG and Z rankers are doing. This isn't some hard rule, entirely enforced, or unlimited in its scope - certain areas are 'anything goes'. And it's even likely that Zahard's forces get to bend the rules a bit more than your average ranker too.
And NO interference by an admin as such. It depends on WHERE the fight is taking place apparently.
Not sure why he'd be 'watched' by the admin any more than any other irregular or FH. Gustang has free abilities to go anywhere, the other FH's most certainly do as well. It is pure head-cannon conjecture to say that Zahard is watched any more or less.
It is also just possible, but more likely, as king he can do whatever he wants - to include ditching his guard or watchful eyes and even teleport wherever he wants to go.
Except we have EVERY indication that he CAN: legend that he has (Enne), and outright confirmation that he has (Baam on FoD), and ZERO indication that he can't. Again, I ask you other than opinion do you have ANY evidence that Zahard is limited to his travel based on anything in the story thus far??
Only I have, several times now. Yet you haven't bothered to use ANY bit of the story to support your supposition that he cannot move to other floors. It hasn't even been hinted at.
Gustang, a lesser being, is subject to their rules and can freely move throughout the tower. You don't have to be able to kill admin to move to other floors! Rankers have more freedom than regulars, and Zahard is the KING of the rankers.... Do you have ANY evidence Zahard, as king, is subject to MORE rules by the admin than a lesser being? Again, Occam's Razor would indicate LESS restrictions as someone with more authority.
That's exactly what I was speculating about. But it doesn't seem to be that he's limited from going to another floor. It has to be SOMETHING ELSE. He's 'healing' or self-limited, or tempting fate, or bored, or on an adventure, or seeing how this plays out, or in another body, or whatever. But being limited to floor travel is the least likely of reasons.
Admin are ALSO above all rankers - that can move about freely. Zahard too is above all rankers - but can't move about freely? Logic fail.
========================
admin: "Here - we'll make you KING - of the entire tower! - you'll have more authority, privileges, and power than anyone else in the tower! Deal?"
Zahard: "Sure, but can I travel?"
admin: "No. You can do whatever you want! But only in your room..."
Zahard: "You said more power than anyone else? Am I not able to travel as the King when others can travel freely??"
admin: "Oh, you are more powerful and have total authority than anyone else. Except you don't. You just can't do more than them, and we'll restrict you more than them, and micromanage you more than them..."
Zahard: "Sign me up!"
I’m like a week removed from this debate, but I implore you to believe what you wish to.
Your hypothetical is funny (not in a haha way) but I never said he couldn’t leave his room. I said he couldn’t go attack regulars willy nilly.. Why ignore that crucial point to create a parody hypothetical that proves nothing and gets you nowhere?
It’s a fact he has restrictions just like others in the tower (I linked you to the page confirming).. Rankers can move around freely but not interact with regulars freely... Going to attack Baam is not something the Tower or the Admins want. Zahard at the very least knows this but will do everything to kill him. Save For showing up to face him, which is the most sure fire way to kill him, because of “reasons” not to do with admins or rules? According to you?
Gustang created the bracelet/anklet that Urek used to go to FOD *UNNOTICED**... Ummm Gustang used a similar device? Clearly Gustang has his own secrets and methods to go unnoticed. By Zahard or admins... Also Gustang isn’t a lesser being. Only Zahard believes himself above his peers.
I’ve used not a bit of the story to support my claims? No, just actual tenets and facts of the series, described in the work itself. To which I have linked you to and of course you have wholly ignored.
If you want me to use disparate pieces of information And postulation to pretend they mean what I want them to, I won’t. I find that you do that well enough. Stretch it’s meaning far enough and disregard context, then it can mean anything you wish, if only to make a point nobody argued against. All of your points are supposition to prove a point they ostensibly do not prove nor state.
- I do not care what Kallavan THOUGHT. He isn’t an authority on admin restrictions. He is the minion Zahard keeps sending to kill Baam though..... To your point he proves nothing.
- It is pure supposition on your part about what admins may not “care about”, but you agree HR have mentioned not alerting them, Right? If they don’t care why worry at all? Rather than combat the actual point with fact let’s just assume Zahard bypasses these restrictions with contracts never mentioned or alluded to? Now which of us is actually dealing with facts here?
- Zahard playing with fate again means ZILCH to the debate at hand. So why mention it? To incorrectly characterize my argument; for the upteenth time I never said he can’t leave his room. I said in response to a claim you made “I wouldn’t care the reason if such were the case.” My argument was and still is, He can’t descend to attack a regular. Which is why they (Baam’s companions) are all still alive while having a Zahard execution order...
Shinsoo protects Baam.... Therefore the admins protect him... lol that’s sarcasm... It’s about as good as the argument that Zahard playing with fate indicates anything in regards to him NOT attacking Baam personally. It also reveals Absolutely nothing of what restrictions he may or may not have... Nice try but that was weak supposition!
”Hence if any other Ranker can, Zahard can” by your own admission Zahard isn’t just any Ranker at all. Facile argument, he being at the top of the tower would be the prime reason why Admins would watch him with intent. For all they know he could be looking to usurp them next. Might be why Baam is actually needed by the tower. And why we have guardians supporting him (Floor 2 Guardian)...
We agree there is a reason why Zahard can’t attack Baam;
I chalk it up to the rules of the tower and the admins. For which we have evidence for and are aware of.
You?
It’s what? Something else. Right? You don’t quite know what that would be, but something...
It’s also facile to argue that because a King has certain privileges he can’t be restricted In other ways. In reality a King is restricted in many ways common people are not. He may have privileges befit a King but he can’t do everything he wants.
So the only evidences right now as to why he hasn’t attacked Baam is the restrictions and rules of the tower. And that’s why I think it so.
Because he still can’t do what the admins don’t ALLOW.... He cannot just warp to Baam and kill him. Baam is a regular therefore is protected by the rules of the tower and admins...
Haven’t you seen in the last 30 chapters or so it being said multiple times “can’t release too much power or the administrators will interfere...” This applies to anybody not strong enough to kill an admin or anybody who isnt an axis...
That is why Zahard has “minions” and no matter his contracts he’s still BELOW Enryu no matter how it’s sliced, and Enryu isn’t even an axis.
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Zahard is NO god.... He wishes he were though. I guarantee you that!
--- Double Post Merged, ---
Gathering around Baam has been the inevitability since he got caught in FUG’s plans.
White will have his moment within the new FUG but if I’m being honest he over estimates himself far too much. Gustang showed he’ll be a bug not matter how much he desires to ascend.
This is the post that prompted your initial response. Where in my argument do you see me saying he can’t move from the floor?
As I have said and maintained, He can’t just warp to Baam and kill him....Regulars are PROTECTED by admins”
It was you who introduced the position of not being able to move from his room as an exaggeration to discredit my argument. The problem is that was not, nor ever was, my argument.
So, here you have been carrying on misconstruing my argument (intentionally or not) and arguing a point not ever made by me. It may not make sense he can’t move from his room. Yet, it is perfectly clear he is restricted from attacking Baam. My impression was due to the rules of the tower, it’s admins and therein lied the protection of regulars.
- To your other points. I noted not only was the Data floor Zahard a projection of himself on to the floor but also that Baam was not a regular climbing the tower chosen by headon as a baby. Which shows why in those two instances it was entirely viable outside of the norm of the tower rules and also why he cannot just do it again. Logic would dictate that after Baam escaped the Data floor, to which Zahard knew was to the train, Zahard didn’t show up at the train because he couldn’t.
- He can appear to Khel and Kallavan (and you say Enne, to which I say show me) but not Baam? Which would indicate a difference between the encounters or the circumstances in which the encounter took place. What would the difference be? Why self impose a restriction so your biggest threat gets to continually grow into a bigger one? So, that’s to me is highly unlikely. What is more likely is their ranks... Those in which you mention As evidence weren’t regulars.
The logic is simple and according to Occam’s Razor, fits perfectly!
Maybe after becoming a King he had an imposed rule of never interfering with regulars in his true self. That could have led to the existence of Floor Tests (which would have ratted out Bam If the testers of 2F were not FUG related), and the need for army Rankers to do his dirty work. All probably boils down to the unknown clauses in his Kingship contract, SIU can easily dump all plot needed explamations of Jahad's behavior that would be contrary to obvious pragmatic reasoning. Lol
This would be admin imposed. Some would argue “no” to this. Even though the alternative would mean he technically can go kill Baam if he wanted to. At anytime???
But I agree, we don’t know enough to rule out specific stipulations in the contract he forged to be acknowledged as King...
To me it makes little sense to say he “descended” to the Data floor but didn’t show up at the train, subsequently.
Leads me to believe he projected himself into the data floor for the very reason he could not just show up at the station.
And what was keeping him out exactly? Mechanics, or an admin? If the later, we'd have confirmation they limit him (albeit for a special floor), but that wouldn't explain how an admin couldn't keep him out if he weren't supposed to be there, or keep him from doing what he wanted once inside - so which is it, can an admin keep him down and fail to constrain him once inside or are they turning a blind eye? There are, however, other options such as they just don't give a shit, but that would also seem to support the notion that they aren't actively working to limit Zahard's movements.
So, interestingly, I tend to believe the interior of the hell train is—well, was—an administrator-free zone (and essentially a movable pseudo-floor unto itself).
This is admittedly just speculation—my inference from what we saw. The mechanics of the train came across as-if the train had authority to conduct "substitute" tests as-necessary to qualify its riders for each floor. No clue how that would tie in with regulars making per-floor admin contracts, but in fairness it's not as-if SIU's mentioned those contracts since 2F.
On that theory, though, it would seem that what we can infer from the hidden floor is actually rather narrow: the workshop can, apparently, create a box so sturdy that not even Zahard can open it from the outside...but the (speculative) admin-free nature of the train interior would preclude our inferring much else from the events.
That being said, even though I've assumed the train to be admin-free for some time, I hadn't put one thing together until I wrote this: if the workshop can create such admin-free areas, then we have a whole new range of possibilities for where Arlen went with Baam, where Rachel's from, and so on.
Well, of course he can't just murk the MC due to plot reasons. Though we usually have *concrete* reasons as to why that's the case. IF Zahard could free-roam and didn't put an upstart like Baam down himself but he had the opportunity it wouldn't make much sense. That's why I suggest there's something more to it. Hell, maybe Zahard was moved by his data self and wants a challenge so this is all in an effort to see if Baam has the balls. IDK, but I don't see it as the defacto and literal king of the castle not being able to go to another floor arbitrarily.
My theory isn't just "some restriction on Zahard is what prevents him from doing the obvious thing" but that, specifically, "the restriction on Zahard is that he can't do anything that would actually work". That is, Zahard may freely take steps that postpone the arrival of his fate, but he's (somehow) specifically-and-directly forbidden from taking steps that would prevent the arrival of that fate.
Andddd, nevertheless you replied, but will you be able to stay on topic without conflating things, ignoring pointed questions, glossing over glaring examples, and straw-manning my words?
Your hypothetical is funny (not in a haha way) but I never said he couldn’t leave his room. I said he couldn’t go attack regulars willy nilly.. Why ignore that crucial point to create a parody hypothetical that proves nothing and gets you nowhere?
Err, I guess not (to my rhetorical questions above). This WHOLE thing came about because I said there is no evidence (there isn't) that Zahard can't leave his floor and handle Baam directly.
again what difference will it make if you find out the admins rules stopped him OR He can’t leave his throne room due to his contracts? The effect on the story is the same
Second show me where it says it is the full Zahard descending? IIRC it was stated it was just a projection of Zahard and he didn’t actually descend from where he was. If you show me it’s REALLY him I’ll take that as him not being restricted.
... When have we really seen Zahard move throughout the tower?
It is beyond clear I am arguing Zahard has the FREEDOM to leave his floor and you are/were arguing against that. It is BEYOND CLEAR I am being facetious in my imaginary, humorous conversation between the admin and Zahard that 'can't leave your room' [like some child] = leave the floor as a king - particularly in the context of us disagreeing on whether Zahard can leave his floor or not. Because that's literally what we've been in disagreement without. Now, you're changing it up to move the goalposts to discussion about whether he can leave his 'room' (whatever that actually means) or not. That is NOT what was being discussed/was in contention.
The - specific and pointed - question I asked you is are there any restrictions as you claim that are above and beyond what others in the tower have to submit to? No. Pointing out tower-wide restrictions does not equate to providing evidence that Zahard has specific restrictions on himself as king. That is simply not the same thing at all.
ONLY IN CERTAIN AREAS. In other areas, it is anything goes. We have not only seen this play out time and again (without admin interference) but we have seen it specifically with Zahard. The rules of the tower are there are certain parts of the floor that are off-limits to rankers and regulars are protected, but that in no way means Baam has kept to those parts of the floors.
Besides, Zahard is... a ranker! So he should be able to move about freely as well. AT LEAST to the same level as other rankers (if not more). Unless there's evidence that would indicate otherwise...? (hint: so far, nope)
Hilarious and hypocritical as in a few lines from now you'll argue that *I* don't know what the admin want. And, yet, no evidence for this at all. For all we know the admin are divided on Zahard doing what he needs to do with an upstart irregular that potentially challenges his kingdom.
Zahard at the very least knows this but will do everything to kill him. Save For showing up to face him, which is the most sure fire way to kill him, because of “reasons” not to do with admins or rules? According to you?
Yes, I *shock* think there is more to the story than simply Zahard cannot freely traverse from floor to floor in his own fucking tower he presides as king over.
Factually incorrect. The Workshop did. Yuje acquired it from the workshop and if you didn't notice in the conversation between Urek and Gustang they aren't exactly working together. Besides, Gustang wouldn't need it recovered by the treasure-seeking ray if he could simply create one.
To the floor inhabitants, not to anyone else outside the floor to our knowledge - it was to stealthily get in so he could avoid or address Garam, his crush, on his own terms and handle Hell Joe. Regardless, the FoD is specific because it is off-limits. This has nothing to do with the fact that both irregulars can freely traverse the tower without the anklet - which was only for the FoD mission. Urek didn't have or need one with the Zygania story. Or any other time he travels around. Any more than Yuri needed one to go to 1F. Any more than Gustang needed one to go watch the workshop battle. Any more than Karaka or Yuri or any other ranker needed to go to the FoD. I'm not sure why you have to argue about everything ever, but the anklet has nothing to do with rankers traveling from floor to floor.
Evidence?? Moreover, WHY would he need to? And WHY would he need to in order to go to any other floor but FoD? Are all rankers traveling about with 'similar devices' or anklets? lol, nope.
Clearly Gustang has his own secrets and methods to go unnoticed. By Zahard or admins... Also Gustang isn’t a lesser being. Only Zahard believes himself above his peers.
Gustang, not a king, is most certainly 'lesser' than Zahard in the since that the later is a KING. Zahard believes himself above his peers because he IS above his peers lol - both in battle prowess (Arie concedes as much) and in the fact he's king and they're not.
But it's funny you'd argue they are functionally equivalent yet we see Gustang moving around without a problem from floor to floor - and interacting with regulars mind you - but somehow Zahard cannot? ZERO consistency.
I’ve used not a bit of the story to support my claims? No, just actual tenets and facts of the series, described in the work itself. To which I have linked you to and of course you have wholly ignored.
For the 100th time - give any, ANY succinct piece of evidence that Zahard (specifically) cannot leave his floor. Any. You can't, you won't. You just keep repeating that you already have - but you have not actually provided anything substantive about Zahard specifically as an individual.
If you want me to use disparate pieces of information And postulation to pretend they mean what I want them to, I won’t. I find that you do that well enough. Stretch it’s meaning far enough and disregard context, then it can mean anything you wish, if only to make a point nobody argued against. All of your points are supposition to prove a point they ostensibly do not prove nor state.
- I do not care what Kallavan THOUGHT. He isn’t an authority on admin restrictions. He is the minion Zahard keeps sending to kill Baam though..... To your point he proves nothing.
Actually, it proves that someone as talented as Kallavan wouldn't think someone is 'omni' anything without the ability to move in any direction (literally - omni) or 'potent' anything if they think they don't have the power (literally - potency) to do as they please. It's not the be-all, end-all argument, but just one in a long list that gives evidence to SHOW that Zahard more than likely isn't as limited as you claim.
Again, hypocritical on your part when you were JUST saying (as a matter of fact, not supposition) what admin want several lines up. My point wasn't to say what admin thought about the tower rules in general, my point was to say they don't care what FUG thinks about the tower rules IF they want to enforce them. Why, because you think FUG rankers disregarding rules is somehow not important evidence that clearly the admin do not strictly enforce (or care) about the rules at certain times and in certain places. It's not like an admin WAS going to enforce a policy, but then saw it was FUG that broke the rules and just changed their mind about it because they know FUG doesn't care - FUG gets a pass! Funny you seem to think admin don't care so much about FUG activities but seem to care more about Z forces activities. And maybe they do! But that would just go to show that they are selectively enforcing rules and that means they can be bent or bypassed depending on where/who you are.
but you agree HR have mentioned not alerting them, Right? If they don’t care why worry at all? Rather than combat the actual point with fact let’s just assume Zahard bypasses these restrictions with contracts never mentioned or alluded to? Now which of us is actually dealing with facts here?
Once again (there's a reason I keep having to repeat myself....) - this does not hold true in every inch of the floor. ONLY in specific areas. And, regardless, we have seen NO interference in these ranker vs regular battles (both from FUG or Z forces). And we have seen NO interference when Zahard involves himself. So, the only FACTS I am talking about are what we have actually seen vs what we haven't, as that is all that matters. It would be different if we saw something play out and I disregarded that or glossed over it. That seems to be a method of disagreement that others employ...
Well, I was pretty specific as to why (you ignore the 'why') - it's hard to modify fate without being able to travel! Derp. See: Khell (specifically). See: Headon. See: Enryu. See: Arlen. See: Baam. Basically, any and everyone either tied to fate or involved in changing in the tower it is mobile. As such, it's more than likely the case that Zahard can, you know, TRAVEL.
To incorrectly characterize my argument; for the upteenth time I never said he can’t leave his room. I said in response to a claim you made “I wouldn’t care the reason if such were the case.” My argument was and still is, He can’t descend to attack a regular. Which is why they (Baam’s companions) are all still alive while having a Zahard execution order...
Yup - You keep pointedly arguing we haven't seen Zahard leave his floor and he is bound by admin (I quoted you numerous times). I have argued against that. I posted your own words - you have been clear you don't think Zahard can leave his floor for ANY reason, let alone or specifically to kill a regular. But have offered ZERO evidence as such. The second part of what you say - to attack a regular - is ALSO a separate point to be argued (1. is can he leave for any reason? and 2. is can he interact with regulars?). And it's just factually not true that throughout the tower, in every corner, rankers cannot engage with regulars. It's counter to what we have SEEN several times over. So, as I pointed out in my very first response - IF there is a floor/area where ranker ____ can fight Baam, that is - by the same rules/standards - a floor/area where ZAHARD can do the same (unless, again, he is somehow MORE restricted as king... where is the 'evidence' of that?). Regardless, as I pointed out and you COMPLETELY side-stepped, Zahard has already killed Baam - on another floor - who was a regular - who was a non-ranker - while already being king.
Shinsoo protects Baam.... Therefore the admins protect him... lol that’s sarcasm... It’s about as good as the argument that Zahard playing with fate indicates anything in regards to him NOT attacking Baam personally. It also reveals Absolutely nothing of what restrictions he may or may not have... Nice try but that was weak supposition!
I'm sorry you don't seem to understand my thought process is that if you intend to warp fate it is much, much easier if you are mobile and free to roam - as I pointed out above. You can't say A and Z, looking nothing alike, don't have anything to do with each other while avoiding B-Y. It was (just another) example of reasons that support the notion that Zahard IS MOBILE - a point I have been making since my very first post in response to you. Taken on its own is not enough, nor was it intended to be. I would think that should have been clear to the reader.
”Hence if any other Ranker can, Zahard can” by your own admission Zahard isn’t just any Ranker at all. Facile argument, he being at the top of the tower would be the prime reason why Admins would watch him with intent. For all they know he could be looking to usurp them next. Might be why Baam is actually needed by the tower. And why we have guardians supporting him (Floor 2 Guardian)...
We agree there is a reason why Zahard can’t attack Baam;
I chalk it up to the rules of the tower and the admins. For which we have evidence for and are aware of.
No, you create extraneous, arbitrary 'rules' that are above and beyond any other rules we have seen levied on any other ranker in the tower. You then say you have evidenced facts. You argue, without evidence, that Zahard is somehow MORE restricted than the ranker next to him. That is not 'evidence' based.
I suggest there is more to the story we don't know. Which is a fact. And the opposite of twisting the parts of the story we DO know to force an opinion as 'fact' or 'evidence'...
It’s also facile to argue that because a King has certain privileges he can’t be restricted In other ways. In reality a King is restricted in many ways common people are not. He may have privileges befit a King but he can’t do everything he wants.
I have, specifically, agreed to as much. I said it is possible. The opposite (I have also argued) is possible as well (probable even) - that he could have MORE freedom as king ("It's good to be the king!" - every king ever). While I have agreed with you on the former, you can't be bothered to agree with the later as in the realm of possibility. Regardless, I have asked for EVIDENCE he is somehow more restricted, and you haven't given any. You just keep repeating rules that apply to everyone else in the tower.
The FACT is we don't know - yet - what freedoms or restrictions Zahard enjoys or incurs as king. You seem to be obsessed with the notion he can ONLY be more restricted while ignoring it is just as likely at this point (again, even more probable than not) that he has less restrictions as king. "It is possible..." isn't a response to a prompt for evidence. Yes, it is possible - anything is.
I must have missed the "evidence"!!! From what I know Zahard is no more, no less restricted than ANY OTHER ranker. Do you know (with, ahem, 'evidence') otherwise?
I have rattled off multiple (there are plenty more, assuredly, if pressed for options) possibilities as to why Zahard hasn't - or can't - attacked Baam that are not limited to 'he can't leave his floor'. While 'he can't leave his floor' is one of many possibilities, it doesn't seem to be the case at all - at least not YET. It is the least probable IMO as we have SEEN the bloody mess where baby Baam used to be after Zahard... left his floor. And in the FACT other rankers are free to travel. So, while you could be right, you aren't right as of right now. There simply is zero evidence that is the specific reason - arbitrary terms imposed on him as king. It could be self-imposed. It could be his wait-and-see attitude. Or sense of 'adventure' coming back. It could be him just fucking with Baam like he did with Khell. It could be something to do with his 'sleeps' or an incomplete body or any number of other things.
By and by, did you 'miss' the part where I pointedly gave the most glaring example that blows up your ENTIRE argument? You must have, because you never once addressed it in your wall of text (that I have to figure out which sentence is a response to what I've said line by line...).
*****Zahard, as king, and already under whatever rules he was or wasn't, traveled, to another floor, to KILL a regular (born in the tower) non-ranker.***** Until SIU retcons or gives more to this story - that is 100% canon and fact. Fact: Zahard traveled to another floor (Baam born on FoD, killed as a newborn, Arlen was a fugitive and decidedly not hiding on 134F). Fact: Zahard was ALREADY king and under whatever restrictions he'd be under as king. Fact: Baam was at the time a 'regular' and certainly not a ranker even if 'irregular status' being born to two irregulars. Fact: as of yet we have NO INDICATION an admin even batted an eye about the whole thing. We have no indication Zahard was deposed, punished, or even verbally accosted by the FoD admin for even doing such an act. Further, the admin even fought on behalf of Zahard's forces that were being massacred at a later time.
Just claiming I’m proving your point doesn’t make it so if you actually try to understand the other persons point. Like the Eurasia thing, it was such a FACT to you until it wasn’t.
And I somehow missed this little gem from your (edited after the fact, hmm) earlier post. I - never, at any point - most certainly did NOT argue that Dowon was in FACT a Eurasian. I argued the evidence that we did have that I thought supported my theory that she was. I didn't mince words - I specifically pointed out this was no more than a theory and opinion. The fact that you, now, rather mischievously (to get a jab at me, personally) would try and gaslight the reader just solidifies you are more interested in arguing than actually addressing the subject matter. This is just another example of projection (arguing opinion as fact). If I messed up a FACT then correct me and I'll acknowledge it. That is not how I argue at all - I attempt at great length to keep my opinion and facts supporting my opinion distinct. How very transparent of you!
And to be clear, mods: I am NOT insulting this person as an individual, ad hominem'ing, making anything personal, etc. I'm ONLY addressing the style (or lack thereof) of 'discussion' (this SHOULD be a discussion about the content of the story) as it pertains to the topic at hand. And defending my words to not be purposefully, repeatedly misrepresented. This *should* fall under the forum rules, but if not please notify me and I'll modify. But being repeatedly misrepresented is not only maddening, but one should be able to address each instance this happens.
So, interestingly, I tend to believe the interior of the hell train is—well, was—an administrator-free zone (and essentially a movable pseudo-floor unto itself).
This is admittedly just speculation—my inference from what we saw. The mechanics of the train came across as-if the train had authority to conduct "substitute" tests as-necessary to qualify its riders for each floor. No clue how that would tie in with regulars making per-floor admin contracts, but in fairness it's not as-if SIU's mentioned those contracts since 2F.
On that theory, though, it would seem that what we can infer from the hidden floor is actually rather narrow: the workshop can, apparently, create a box so sturdy that not even Zahard can open it from the outside...but the (speculative) admin-free nature of the train interior would preclude our inferring much else from the events.
I agree (admin-free internally) - and that the uniqueness of the data floor isn't enough to hang a hat of a theory on. Only I invoke the data floor for other reasons. Notably, that Zahard has shown the willingness and know-how to plan ahead and to find, by any means necessary, ways to bypass any 'rules' that exist in the tower. He was able to do something that even Gustang could not and should not have been able to do. OR he planned ahead to the point that only he would be able to do as much. And he came barging in, sans key.
And to a lesser extent that if the all-knowing, all-powerful admin were capable of stopping Zahard - on the outside - from getting in and being as a ranker beyond their rules and jurisdiction (something they'd seemingly want to do if they were so concerned about his behavior) - it would seem they either couldn't or didn't care - or couldn't move in time. Or, that they were caught unaware of what Zahard was up to (but did nothing after the fact?). Pick one really it matters not. No matter which one, it would imply that IF Zahard could he would absolutely find a way to duck the watchful eyes of the admin to go kill Baam - 'rules' be damned (we KNOW he did once and tried again a second time). And that's even if they are watching or give two shits about him killing Baam. Zahard would find a way - I don't think his concern is what the admin think about it. As he already has once:
Combined with the fact that Zahard has already killed a non-ranker on a different floor without apparent repercussions (notably baby Baam), I'm mostly inclined to thinking the admin have bestowed more leeway on Zahard than the opposite of restrictions. Or, compared to Zahard's actions, they are inept. No slap on the hand even from FoD admin? To the contrary, it had Z's back when Enryu came and started wrecking his rankers' shit. To be fair it might not have simply like all the ruckus, but it certainly didn't fight against the stampeding rankers that we saw that pulled out weapons on Enryu. So much for impartiality...
Nevertheless, the data floor is a (seeming) one-off and shouldn't be used in of itself to build an argument that Zahard can move freely (that wasn't my intent). But, the events in conjunction with other tower events start to paint the picture that either a) Zahard isn't as restricted as your average Joe ranker or b) Zahard is equally restricted as your average ranker or c) that Zahard can and will move/work extra-judiciously and not an admin will or can do a thing about it (being that he's king and all).
The data floor is unique in how it's accessed and how it's moderated, I do admit that. I have all along. It's like seeing a black hole though - you don't actually see the black hole itself, you monitor and study the effect it has on the visible universe around it and draw the best conclusions you can. It's all still inconclusive theory but it is bolstered by conclusive facts that surround the data black-hole.
That being said, even though I've assumed the train to be admin-free for some time, I hadn't put one thing together until I wrote this: if the workshop can create such admin-free areas, then we have a whole new range of possibilities for where Arlen went with Baam, where Rachel's from, and so on.
Agreed again. That is in line with them existing both in the tower and outside of it - and we aren't privy to those exact mechanics. Still, I and others wonder where Baam's cave was - both outside the tower but attached to it? Where did Arlen go? Why can't Headon (the most capable admin in the tower) find Enryu? I suggested 'pocket dimensions' but had never thought who would have made them until your post...
My theory isn't just "some restriction on Zahard is what prevents him from doing the obvious thing" but that, specifically, "the restriction on Zahard is that he can't do anything that would actually work". That is, Zahard may freely take steps that postpone the arrival of his fate, but he's (somehow) specifically-and-directly forbidden from taking steps that would prevent the arrival of that fate.
Apologies if misunderstood, but, yes, we agree (for the most part). That for reasons fatalistic (both in the sense the story would be over for the readers and SIU would be out of work, and intra-ToG fate) he cannot move to kill Baam (well, again). Look what happened when he TRIED (again)... the impersonal, disembodied 'fate' prevented him from being able to do so. Fate stepped in - the second thorn activated and whisked him away. It doesn't have to be even directly affecting Zahard's actions... it seems to be almost karmic. Fate in this case is less of a hard, enforced, visible rule entities physically bend to the will of and more of an Invisible Hand of sorts. Personally, I haven't ruled out extra restrictions on the king per se, but I think there's some other element at play at this time without hard evidence to indicate his hands are tied in administrative tape.
Andddd, nevertheless you replied, but will you be able to stay on topic without conflating things, ignoring pointed questions, glossing over glaring examples, and straw-manning my words?
Err, I guess not (to my rhetorical questions above). This WHOLE thing came about because I said there is no evidence (there isn't) that Zahard can't leave his floor and handle Baam directly.
Your response(s), and I quote:
1.
2.
3.-4.
It is beyond clear I am arguing Zahard has the FREEDOM to leave his floor and you are/were arguing against that. It is BEYOND CLEAR I am being facetious in my imaginary, humorous conversation between the admin and Zahard that 'can't leave your room' [like some child] = leave the floor as a king - particularly in the context of us disagreeing on whether Zahard can leave his floor or not. Because that's literally what we've been in disagreement without. Now, you're changing it up to move the goalposts to discussion about whether he can leave his 'room' (whatever that actually means) or not. That is NOT what was being discussed/was in contention.
The - specific and pointed - question I asked you is are there any restrictions as you claim that are above and beyond what others in the tower have to submit to? No. Pointing out tower-wide restrictions does not equate to providing evidence that Zahard has specific restrictions on himself as king. That is simply not the same thing at all.
ONLY IN CERTAIN AREAS. In other areas, it is anything goes. We have not only seen this play out time and again (without admin interference) but we have seen it specifically with Zahard. The rules of the tower are there are certain parts of the floor that are off-limits to rankers and regulars are protected, but that in no way means Baam has kept to those parts of the floors.
Besides, Zahard is... a ranker! So he should be able to move about freely as well. AT LEAST to the same level as other rankers (if not more). Unless there's evidence that would indicate otherwise...? (hint: so far, nope)
Hilarious and hypocritical as in a few lines from now you'll argue that *I* don't know what the admin want. And, yet, no evidence for this at all. For all we know the admin are divided on Zahard doing what he needs to do with an upstart irregular that potentially challenges his kingdom.
Yes, I *shock* think there is more to the story than simply Zahard cannot freely traverse from floor to floor in his own fucking tower he presides as king over.
Factually incorrect. The Workshop did. Yuje acquired it from the workshop and if you didn't notice in the conversation between Urek and Gustang they aren't exactly working together. Besides, Gustang wouldn't need it recovered by the treasure-seeking ray if he could simply create one.
To the floor inhabitants, not to anyone else outside the floor to our knowledge - it was to stealthily get in so he could avoid or address Garam, his crush, on his own terms and handle Hell Joe. Regardless, the FoD is specific because it is off-limits. This has nothing to do with the fact that both irregulars can freely traverse the tower without the anklet - which was only for the FoD mission. Urek didn't have or need one with the Zygania story. Or any other time he travels around. Any more than Yuri needed one to go to 1F. Any more than Gustang needed one to go watch the workshop battle. Any more than Karaka or Yuri or any other ranker needed to go to the FoD. I'm not sure why you have to argue about everything ever, but the anklet has nothing to do with rankers traveling from floor to floor.
Evidence?? Moreover, WHY would he need to? And WHY would he need to in order to go to any other floor but FoD? Are all rankers traveling about with 'similar devices' or anklets? lol, nope.
Gustang, not a king, is most certainly 'lesser' than Zahard in the since that the later is a KING. Zahard believes himself above his peers because he IS above his peers lol - both in battle prowess (Arie concedes as much) and in the fact he's king and they're not.
But it's funny you'd argue they are functionally equivalent yet we see Gustang moving around without a problem from floor to floor - and interacting with regulars mind you - but somehow Zahard cannot? ZERO consistency.
For the 100th time - give any, ANY succinct piece of evidence that Zahard (specifically) cannot leave his floor. Any. You can't, you won't. You just keep repeating that you already have - but you have not actually provided anything substantive about Zahard specifically as an individual.
This is what projection looks like...
Actually, it proves that someone as talented as Kallavan wouldn't think someone is 'omni' anything without the ability to move in any direction (literally - omni) or 'potent' anything if they think they don't have the power (literally - potency) to do as they please. It's not the be-all, end-all argument, but just one in a long list that gives evidence to SHOW that Zahard more than likely isn't as limited as you claim.
Again, hypocritical on your part when you were JUST saying (as a matter of fact, not supposition) what admin want several lines up. My point wasn't to say what admin thought about the tower rules in general, my point was to say they don't care what FUG thinks about the tower rules IF they want to enforce them. Why, because you think FUG rankers disregarding rules is somehow not important evidence that clearly the admin do not strictly enforce (or care) about the rules at certain times and in certain places. It's not like an admin WAS going to enforce a policy, but then saw it was FUG that broke the rules and just changed their mind about it because they know FUG doesn't care - FUG gets a pass! Funny you seem to think admin don't care so much about FUG activities but seem to care more about Z forces activities. And maybe they do! But that would just go to show that they are selectively enforcing rules and that means they can be bent or bypassed depending on where/who you are.
Once again (there's a reason I keep having to repeat myself....) - this does not hold true in every inch of the floor. ONLY in specific areas. And, regardless, we have seen NO interference in these ranker vs regular battles (both from FUG or Z forces). And we have seen NO interference when Zahard involves himself. So, the only FACTS I am talking about are what we have actually seen vs what we haven't, as that is all that matters. It would be different if we saw something play out and I disregarded that or glossed over it. That seems to be a method of disagreement that others employ...
Well, I was pretty specific as to why (you ignore the 'why') - it's hard to modify fate without being able to travel! Derp. See: Khell (specifically). See: Headon. See: Enryu. See: Arlen. See: Baam. Basically, any and everyone either tied to fate or involved in changing in the tower it is mobile. As such, it's more than likely the case that Zahard can, you know, TRAVEL.
Yup - You keep pointedly arguing we haven't seen Zahard leave his floor and he is bound by admin (I quoted you numerous times). I have argued against that. I posted your own words - you have been clear you don't think Zahard can leave his floor for ANY reason, let alone or specifically to kill a regular. But have offered ZERO evidence as such. The second part of what you say - to attack a regular - is ALSO a separate point to be argued (1. is can he leave for any reason? and 2. is can he interact with regulars?). And it's just factually not true that throughout the tower, in every corner, rankers cannot engage with regulars. It's counter to what we have SEEN several times over. So, as I pointed out in my very first response - IF there is a floor/area where ranker ____ can fight Baam, that is - by the same rules/standards - a floor/area where ZAHARD can do the same (unless, again, he is somehow MORE restricted as king... where is the 'evidence' of that?). Regardless, as I pointed out and you COMPLETELY side-stepped, Zahard has already killed Baam - on another floor - who was a regular - who was a non-ranker - while already being king.
I'm sorry you don't seem to understand my thought process is that if you intend to warp fate it is much, much easier if you are mobile and free to roam - as I pointed out above. You can't say A and Z, looking nothing alike, don't have anything to do with each other while avoiding B-Y. It was (just another) example of reasons that support the notion that Zahard IS MOBILE - a point I have been making since my very first post in response to you. Taken on its own is not enough, nor was it intended to be. I would think that should have been clear to the reader.
No, you create extraneous, arbitrary 'rules' that are above and beyond any other rules we have seen levied on any other ranker in the tower. You then say you have evidenced facts. You argue, without evidence, that Zahard is somehow MORE restricted than the ranker next to him. That is not 'evidence' based.
I suggest there is more to the story we don't know. Which is a fact. And the opposite of twisting the parts of the story we DO know to force an opinion as 'fact' or 'evidence'...
I have, specifically, agreed to as much. I said it is possible. The opposite (I have also argued) is possible as well (probable even) - that he could have MORE freedom as king ("It's good to be the king!" - every king ever). While I have agreed with you on the former, you can't be bothered to agree with the later as in the realm of possibility. Regardless, I have asked for EVIDENCE he is somehow more restricted, and you haven't given any. You just keep repeating rules that apply to everyone else in the tower.
The FACT is we don't know - yet - what freedoms or restrictions Zahard enjoys or incurs as king. You seem to be obsessed with the notion he can ONLY be more restricted while ignoring it is just as likely at this point (again, even more probable than not) that he has less restrictions as king. "It is possible..." isn't a response to a prompt for evidence. Yes, it is possible - anything is.
I must have missed the "evidence"!!! From what I know Zahard is no more, no less restricted than ANY OTHER ranker. Do you know (with, ahem, 'evidence') otherwise?
I have rattled off multiple (there are plenty more, assuredly, if pressed for options) possibilities as to why Zahard hasn't - or can't - attacked Baam that are not limited to 'he can't leave his floor'. While 'he can't leave his floor' is one of many possibilities, it doesn't seem to be the case at all - at least not YET. It is the least probable IMO as we have SEEN the bloody mess where baby Baam used to be after Zahard... left his floor. And in the FACT other rankers are free to travel. So, while you could be right, you aren't right as of right now. There simply is zero evidence that is the specific reason - arbitrary terms imposed on him as king. It could be self-imposed. It could be his wait-and-see attitude. Or sense of 'adventure' coming back. It could be him just fucking with Baam like he did with Khell. It could be something to do with his 'sleeps' or an incomplete body or any number of other things.
By and by, did you 'miss' the part where I pointedly gave the most glaring example that blows up your ENTIRE argument? You must have, because you never once addressed it in your wall of text (that I have to figure out which sentence is a response to what I've said line by line...).
*****Zahard, as king, and already under whatever rules he was or wasn't, traveled, to another floor, to KILL a regular (born in the tower) non-ranker.***** Until SIU retcons or gives more to this story - that is 100% canon and fact. Fact: Zahard traveled to another floor (Baam born on FoD, killed as a newborn, Arlen was a fugitive and decidedly not hiding on 134F). Fact: Zahard was ALREADY king and under whatever restrictions he'd be under as king. Fact: Baam was at the time a 'regular' and certainly not a ranker even if 'irregular status' being born to two irregulars. Fact: as of yet we have NO INDICATION an admin even batted an eye about the whole thing. We have no indication Zahard was deposed, punished, or even verbally accosted by the FoD admin for even doing such an act. Further, the admin even fought on behalf of Zahard's forces that were being massacred at a later time.
==============================
And I somehow missed this little gem from your (edited after the fact, hmm) earlier post. I - never, at any point - most certainly did NOT argue that Dowon was in FACT a Eurasian. I argued the evidence that we did have that I thought supported my theory that she was. I didn't mince words - I specifically pointed out this was no more than a theory and opinion. The fact that you, now, rather mischievously (to get a jab at me, personally) would try and gaslight the reader just solidifies you are more interested in arguing than actually addressing the subject matter. This is just another example of projection (arguing opinion as fact). If I messed up a FACT then correct me and I'll acknowledge it. That is not how I argue at all - I attempt at great length to keep my opinion and facts supporting my opinion distinct. How very transparent of you!
And to be clear, mods: I am NOT insulting this person as an individual, ad hominem'ing, making anything personal, etc. I'm ONLY addressing the style (or lack thereof) of 'discussion' (this SHOULD be a discussion about the content of the story) as it pertains to the topic at hand. And defending my words to not be purposefully, repeatedly misrepresented. This *should* fall under the forum rules, but if not please notify me and I'll modify. But being repeatedly misrepresented is not only maddening, but one should be able to address each instance this happens.
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I agree (admin-free internally) - and that the uniqueness of the data floor isn't enough to hang a hat of a theory on. Only I invoke the data floor for other reasons. Notably, that Zahard has shown the willingness and know-how to plan ahead and to find, by any means necessary, ways to bypass any 'rules' that exist in the tower. He was able to do something that even Gustang could not and should not have been able to do. OR he planned ahead to the point that only he would be able to do as much. And he came barging in, sans key.
And to a lesser extent that if the all-knowing, all-powerful admin were capable of stopping Zahard - on the outside - from getting in and being as a ranker beyond their rules and jurisdiction (something they'd seemingly want to do if they were so concerned about his behavior) - it would seem they either couldn't or didn't care - or couldn't move in time. Or, that they were caught unaware of what Zahard was up to (but did nothing after the fact?). Pick one really it matters not. No matter which one, it would imply that IF Zahard could he would absolutely find a way to duck the watchful eyes of the admin to go kill Baam - 'rules' be damned (we KNOW he did once and tried again a second time). And that's even if they are watching or give two shits about him killing Baam. Zahard would find a way - I don't think his concern is what the admin think about it. As he already has once:
Combined with the fact that Zahard has already killed a non-ranker on a different floor without apparent repercussions (notably baby Baam), I'm mostly inclined to thinking the admin have bestowed more leeway on Zahard than the opposite of restrictions. Or, compared to Zahard's actions, they are inept. No slap on the hand even from FoD admin? To the contrary, it had Z's back when Enryu came and started wrecking his rankers' shit. To be fair it might not have simply like all the ruckus, but it certainly didn't fight against the stampeding rankers that we saw that pulled out weapons on Enryu. So much for impartiality...
Nevertheless, the data floor is a (seeming) one-off and shouldn't be used in of itself to build an argument that Zahard can move freely (that wasn't my intent). But, the events in conjunction with other tower events start to paint the picture that either a) Zahard isn't as restricted as your average Joe ranker or b) Zahard is equally restricted as your average ranker or c) that Zahard can and will move/work extra-judiciously and not an admin will or can do a thing about it (being that he's king and all).
The data floor is unique in how it's accessed and how it's moderated, I do admit that. I have all along. It's like seeing a black hole though - you don't actually see the black hole itself, you monitor and study the effect it has on the visible universe around it and draw the best conclusions you can. It's all still inconclusive theory but it is bolstered by conclusive facts that surround the data black-hole.
Agreed again. That is in line with them existing both in the tower and outside of it - and we aren't privy to those exact mechanics. Still, I and others wonder where Baam's cave was - both outside the tower but attached to it? Where did Arlen go? Why can't Headon (the most capable admin in the tower) find Enryu? I suggested 'pocket dimensions' but had never thought who would have made them until your post...
Apologies if misunderstood, but, yes, we agree (for the most part). That for reasons fatalistic (both in the sense the story would be over for the readers and SIU would be out of work, and intra-ToG fate) he cannot move to kill Baam (well, again). Look what happened when he TRIED (again)... the impersonal, disembodied 'fate' prevented him from being able to do so. Fate stepped in - the second thorn activated and whisked him away. It doesn't have to be even directly affecting Zahard's actions... it seems to be almost karmic. Fate in this case is less of a hard, enforced, visible rule entities physically bend to the will of and more of an Invisible Hand of sorts. Personally, I haven't ruled out extra restrictions on the king per se, but I think there's some other element at play at this time without hard evidence to indicate his hands are tied in administrative tape.
I mean sans the memes and sarcasm, if you read the initial post there is NOTHING claiming he is restricted to his floor in my argument.
So how is that a shift in goalposts?
It isn’t Jubei, you just ignored what I initially said to pose your contention. Which is probably why Paulbee claimed “it seems you just don’t want him to have an opinion” I suspected as such from lingering feelings about our Eurasia debate. But I hoped it wasn’t.
Yet, in order for me to actually care to respond to something you’re refuting, that something would have to be something I’m actually arguing.
I do see by the end you note we agree on the restriction but are at odds about what the restriction is. Which I am fine with. I don’t believe we need a pissing contest to make our points and why believe them.
As I’ve stated I think the data floor (as you’ve agreed) is an offshoot due to entering, exiting and the reality of the floor being nebulous. But I am also of the opinion Baam was not protected by the protections that imbued by Headons choosing of Regulars. The tower doesn’t care if unchosen babies are killed, they at that point are unchosen. The irony being Zahard gave Baam the power to supersede the tower by killing him. He would never be chosen by Headon and his fate as an irregular pretty much sealed, but that’s beside the point.
I argued I am of the opinion Baam is protected by now being a regular, no he wasn’t chosen by headon. But have you ever thought what he agreed to when he met the guardian? The guardian called them “shackles” yet what if those shackles were in exchange for protection as a regular? It is why I brought up the Second floor guardian repeatedly. There’s discord among the admins, meaning some are pinning their hopes on Baam rebelling against Zahard. It isn’t just the inhabitants staking their side. If such is not a protection I wonder what it was he did...
Lastly, I don’t think they are “extra” restrictions. I think they are in accordance with current restrictions for all high Rankers. It is possible Zahard made a deal which grants him privileges outside those rules, but we have not seen them. That is why I responded to you, to make my position and why I am inclined to believe it...
Toil argues a position similar to mine, yet you agree with them and accuse me of moving goalposts?
Lol even when I give you my initial post that you responded to. Incorrectly...
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I’m conflating yet you say things like
“Err, I guess not (to my rhetorical questions above). This WHOLE thing came about because I said there is no evidence (there isn't) that Zahard can't leave his floor and handle Baam directly.”
When that is demonstrably false... This started because you ASSUMED THAT. I gave you my initial post that you responded to you want it again?
“ Because he still can’t do what the admins don’t ALLOW.... He cannot just warp to Baam and kill him. Baam is a regular therefore is protected by the rules of the tower and admins...
Haven’t you seen in the last 30 chapters or so it being said multiple times “can’t release too much power or the administrators will interfere...” This applies to anybody not strong enough to kill an admin or anybody who isnt an axis...
That is why Zahard has “minions” and no matter his contracts he’s still BELOW Enryu no matter how it’s sliced, and Enryu isn’t even an axis.
--- Double Post Merged, Jan 11, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 11, 2020 ---”
Where do I say he cannot move? I don’t, so again when I say you carried on misconstruing and continuing to argue a point I wasn’t making...
And you bring up edits, from a week ago and can’t say WHEN I edited it. I edited before I wrote my next post which is why I edited it. To correct and expound on a thought. The condemnation of such is relevant to the debate....??
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Even in the initial post it alludes to Zahard being able to move, just not exert power to alert the admins of his intentions...
So refuting, he can’t move, when it wasn’t my argument proves this wasn’t just a “I disagree” it is what the Eurasia debate was, a feeling I’m attacking you for commenting back. When in fact I’m only clarifying my position to someone who has construed it as they wish.
Because he still can’t do what the admins don’t ALLOW.... He cannot just warp to Baam and kill him. Baam is a regular therefor is protected by the rules of the tower and admins...
Haven’t you seen in the last 30 chapters or so it being said multiple times “can’t release too much power or the administrators will interfere...” This applies to anybody not strong enough to kill an admin or anybody who isnt an axis...
That is why Zahard has “minions” and no matter his contracts he’s still BELOW Enryu no matter how it’s sliced, and Enryu isn’t even an axis.
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Zahard is NO god.... He wishes he were though. I guarantee you that!
100% agree that Enryu is more powerful than Zahard - at least the Enryu that fought on the FoD. There's a distinct possibility he was de-powered, died, shot his load, or was sealed in thorn (or made into it), or any other possibility that makes him a fraction of his former self (why he's in hiding or didn't go after Zahard directly).
That said, why can't Zahard do whatever he wants? He is, after all, king of the tower. Why can't he teleport to any floor exactly? What rule prevents that? Why can't he fight Baam in any environment like any other ranker that fights Baam? Particularly when Baam side-steps the safety of being a regular by being in certain areas or going extracurricular on the floor. At the very least admin have turned a blind eye to rankers fighting Baam even if that's somehow in violation of the rules - though that doesn't seem to be the case depending on the area of the floor.
Seems if Zahard was going to kill Baam he'd do it while he is still weak enough that Zahard DOESN'T have to exert enough power to gain the attention of the floor admin, if the admin would even worry about a tower king doing tower king things (he probably gets certain latitudes other tower inhabitants don't get, ranker or not)?
There has to be some other reason - Zahard isn't 'complete' or cannot move or something we can't even imagine.
We know Zahard himself went to go fight a younger Khell to shut him down. So what is preventing him from taking on this new upstart in Baam?
As you can see my VERY FIRST post that quoted yours STARTED WITH AN AGREEMENT. I was very plainly not being contentious. I then ask my questions in a non-argumentative, often borderline rhetorical way. I wasn't 'against you having an opinion' I simply was musing over why Zahard didn't just do the dirty himself, and used your post to kind of make that point.
From my very first post I have been arguing that Zahard should be able to freely travel. Which is something that you seem to argue against (I posted no less than 3-4 examples).
All I *ever* wanted was for you to give an example of WHY Zahard, specifically, couldn't do any more or less than any other ranker we've seen. That is it. I simply didn't agree that he is more limited, or restricted to his floor. You absolutely argued the opposite.
Which is fine - if you acknowledge it is solely your opinion and not actually based on tower events.
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The 'moving the goalposts' references arguing for pages that Zahard cannot leave his floor (you are on record making that argument) and now it's supposedly about him not being able to leave his 'room' - again, whatever that means. That was clearly meant in jest as WE had been talking about him leaving his floor - and to a lesser extent attacking regulars.
If you say 'I never said he can't leave his room' when that is NOT the argument I've been making, you are correct, but for the wrong reasons. What you DID say was he wasn't able to leave his FLOOR. The 'room' came about because I joked about the admin making him a king in a patronizing way. It was an entirely frivolous thing to latch onto. A bit disingenuous IMO.
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lol, why would you ask "when have we really seen Zahard moving through the tower?" prompting me to PROVE examples of when he's moved (only to later argue against the examples I gave in response) if you weren't against the idea he couldn't leave his floor???
Go look at those enumerated posts of yours just above in the gif post of mine. You were decidedly against the prospect that Zahard cannot freely move throughout the tower - to the point that you even argued that Urek needed the anklet to hide from the admin.
I really wish you would reply to my SPECIFIC lines rather than wall of texts. Oh well.
Bro, here are the first two posts that led to this
As you can see my VERY FIRST post that quoted yours STARTED WITH AN AGREEMENT. I was very plainly not being contentious. I then ask my questions in a non-argumentative, often borderline rhetorical way. I wasn't 'against you having an opinion' I simply was musing over why Zahard didn't just do the dirty himself, and used your post to kind of make that point.
From my very first post I have been arguing that Zahard should be able to freely travel. Which is something that you seem to argue against (I posted no less than 3-4 examples).
All I *ever* wanted was for you to give an example of WHY Zahard, specifically, couldn't do any more or less than any other ranker we've seen. That is it. I simply didn't agree that he is more limited, or restricted to his floor. You absolutely argued the opposite.
Which is fine - if you acknowledge it is solely your opinion and not actually based on tower events.
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The 'moving the goalposts' references arguing for pages that Zahard cannot leave his floor (you are on record making that argument) and now it's supposedly about him not being able to leave his 'room' - again, whatever that means. That was clearly meant in jest as WE had been talking about him leaving his floor - and to a lesser extent attacking regulars.
If you say 'I never said he can't leave his room' when that is NOT the argument I've been making, you are correct, but for the wrong reasons. What you DID say was he wasn't able to leave his FLOOR. The 'room' came about because I joked about the admin making him a king in a patronizing way. It was an entirely frivolous thing to latch onto. A bit disingenuous IMO.
Jubei it doesn’t matter if you agreed at first. The point being I didn’t make the claim he was more restricted. I did make the claim he was restricted like anybody else from attacking Regulars...
Where’s the third response because at that point neither I nor you say he’s stuck.
I also refute those 3-4 claims because it being 3... Enne I’ve said post where this implication is stated, Khel is a Ranker, and baby Baam is NOT a regular selected by Headon.... Those refute your claims
As in my initial claim it states REGULAR... but that criterion is ignored to make you points of “evidence”....
And the evidence I linked you to still didn’t suffice... Which states the points of Rankers and Regulars.
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You then agree later in the argument he must be restricted, as he would have killed Baam himself. YOU ADMIT THAT!!!!
So it goes from why he can’t do it, to “I know he can’t do it but your reason is wrong”
That’s a goalpost shift...
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Because when I say he’s a regular and protected. That doesn’t count.. It just can’t be that you say but why?
Why can it not be he is restricted by the tower and admins in attacking Baam?
Edit-
An admin transported Evk and YHS to the battle instantly, Why couldn’t Zahard do the same? You don’t give me a reason as to why but you wish for me to disbelieve my reason? A reason supported by SIU and lore of the story?
You have to ask yourself why,Why it matters? Why are you happier arguing it could be anything rather than accepting the simplest answer we have now?
It’s a fact admins protect regulars...
It’s a fact Zahard isn’t above admins...
It’s a fact Baam has support of some admins.
It’s a fact that Zahard hasn’t attacked Baam the regular (one who is climbing the tower) within the actual tower..
If those aren’t points for him being restricted by rules and admins then we don’t agree on some points of the story.
I mean, I’ve already answered that he is still under the power of the admins... [you hadn't]
He is a “king” but not a god.... [does not explain why he can or can't move to another floor]
It is probably the same reason he has “princes” and “princesses” to enforce his will and directive where he cannot just appear... [here it is beyond clear you are against the prospect he can freely move]
Phanta and Enryu being the only two who can disobey an admin. [does not explain HOW Zahard moving would be 'disobeying admin']
Enryu had a specific mission and he completed its initial stages. He has no side in the war. He is following the behest of his god. [now you'e arguing Enryu has no opinion about Zahard? That is CLEARLY not the case? WHY ARGUE THIS?? Because you don't imagine a scenario where Zahard is free to roam and ASSUME if he does that is somehow breaking the rules]
I suspect you know all this already. So what are you really asking? [this really isn't an answer either - you never answered my question you just argued!!!]
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Jubei if he “fought Khell” he wouldn’t be alive. He merely showed him he was so far below him and his schemes elementary.
I doubt he exerted any actual power. Khell didn’t live at the wall so how are you aware of which floor he encountered Zahard on? Or Khell being a RANKER instead of a REGULAR being the difference in his appearance. [here again you imply that it was not likely Zahard confronted Khell on another floor but 134 - for the record I think it WAS on 134! But the point remains you can't imagine a scenario that doesn't occur OFF of 134 b/c you clearly don't think Zahard can move... otherwise why argue minutiae over what floor it DIDN'T occur on?]
Baam isn’t side skirting anything he has the obviously explicit help of Evenkhells admin..
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He has tried to kill Baam, once in the presence of his mother (Arlene) and again as he encountered him on the Data Floor. It was then he issued the station orders!
You and I both know if he could he would, so whether due to contracts, regulars admin protection, or for some other ambiguous reason. Does it matter? We know in regards to Baam’s story he said if “he’s worthy he’ll stand before me” which indicates Zahard will do all in his power to prevent that. If Zahard cannot prevent Baam from reaching him then he is “worthy”....
The reason matters not, only what Zahard is going to do to prevent Baam from climbing. Save for Zahard appearing before him because it is apparent he cannot. [here you, AGAIN, argue that Zahard cannot appear before Baam. You don't think it's possible. When prompted, you never offer any other reason than 'admin rules'... when prompted 'what rules' you just say you already answered! This is circular argumentation!]
And yet you've failed to distinguish what SPECIFIC limits he has under that power. You've cited things that aren't accurate. Seems like you're assuming what he can and can't do.
To the tower inhabitants he is both, effectively. A distinction without a difference to all in the tower save the admin, and even that relationship we aren't sure where it begins or ends. Why would they need to COVERTLY subvert his kingship via Baam if they can outright control or manage him? Hmmmm?
There is a difference between relying on subordinates for the day-in, day-out mundane bureaucracy (particularly if/when he chose to go into one of his slumbers) and stepping in to handle something himself, such as it was hinted he had to do with Enne (OR Khell OR data floor Baam). It seems you are committed to your idea without any concrete reason as to why. WE KNOW Zahard will get personally involved from time to time, or chooses to, or CAN. And we can speculate why he can't touch Baam - but I've yet to see a good reason from you as to why not.
Do we know Enryu can STILL do that? No. In fact he's MIA... being searched for... by an admin no less. We don't even know if either is still in the tower or not.
lol, Enryu was 'enraged' at Zahard's desecration and killed many of his rankers. Sure, he had a mission, but let's not act like he didn't have an axe to grind. We simply don't know what we don't know, but you are downplaying what we do in order to force a narrative that doesn't exist (yet, if at all) in the story. Perhaps Enryu would have killed Zahard if he could, but was limited for some reason (wouldn't that be a lot more direct if he had the power?). Perhaps he didn't have the 'OK' by the outside God. Perhaps he only had enough 'juice' to plant the thorn and then retreat or die. But LOL at the thought he has 'no side' when he was an admirer of Arlen, hated what Zahard did to her, killed his own rankers that he called 'false' for following (false) king, and planted the fucking weapon that is to be used to kill Zahard at some point. Yeah, sure, he had no dog in the fight! Seriously, why are you so argumentative? Why can you not handle anyone questioning your posts without reverting to this weird confirmation-bias that glosses over the so very obvious?
To prove a point?
You always get lost in the semantics of things, needlessly (purposely?). We KNOW the story is that Khell faced him directly at one point in the past. Whether Zahard held back or how much power he used at the time is inconsequential. I wasn't making the argument he went all out or tried to kill Khell - rather, the opposite. I was making the point Zahard has SEVERAL instances that are precedent (at least Khell, probably Enne too, going to the hidden floor, etc) where he gets PERSONALLY active to accomplish something himself ('Fine, I'll do it' - Thanos. 'If you want something done right... you have to do it yourself' - every C-level person ever).
Beyond that, I said he fought him to "shut him down" - those were the words I used. You are just being contrarian at this point to try and argue that he somehow didn't face him or he would have died, or that Khell surviving or not was even the point. Continue to tilt at windmills...
Umm, see above. Not sure why you're insisting on going down this non-relevant road. The POINT is Zahard is more than capable and has shown willingness to get off his throne from time to time.
No. That's just untrue. Baam has faced rankers - many times now. No admin has stopped that. How is that different from Zahard as a 'ranker' facing him exactly? Did an admin step in on the data floor? You are conflating covert, subversive support with outright 24-7 interference - which Baam decidedly does not have.
You're making my point for me here.
Yes, it matters if you are saying he's somehow limited by the admin, but give no concrete reason why he can't do it himself after all (which he indeed did try as you and I pointed out - data floor).
OK, you say it doesn't matter, then why argue? Just to argue?
Admit he's not limited from facing a regular on any floor at any time. Admit there is generally no admin interference as to why he can't. THEN we can speculate on what is ACTUALLY keeping him from confronting Baam at this point - which was exactly what I was doing.
Keep in mind that 3rd response (I bracketed my thoughts in it) is in RESPONSE to me pointedly asking why Zahard can't go to another floor, which is what I specifically asked in my first post. The problem is all your posts are on record man. You can't just change tactics and act like you weren't arguing and arguing that Zahard couldn't roam freely.
It doesn’t seem I get lost in semantics, I gave you what I felt supported my position.
What do you want? You propose questions that aren’t pertinent to why I believe him to be restricted in attacking regulars....
But again Jubei why ask something I didn’t argue? As I said you asked why he couldn’t go to another floor. My argument was to attack a regular a pretty hefty qualifier to leave out to disagree.
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It is probably the same reason he has “princes” and “princesses” to enforce his will and directive where he cannot just appear...
Indicating what? There are circumstances in which he CANNOT just show up... not he is locked on a floor...
“Admit he's not limited from facing a regular on any floor at any time. Admit there is generally no admin interference as to why he can't. THEN we can speculate on what is ACTUALLY keeping him from confronting Baam at this point - which was exactly what I was doing.”
No I will not because we have no evidence of it. Exactly the same thing you accuse me of not having in regards to rules of the tower..
But we know the rules of the tower I’ve linked you to them. So why ignore that? Because you aren’t arguing anything but your own supposition. As far as we know he cannot attack any regular.
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He has a Buttload of them on execution order right NOW but he hasn’t shown up to kill them.. it would seem not exclusive to Baam.
lol, yes it DOES. You were JUST making statements that I am somehow against YOU having different opinions. Or that I somehow just want to take issue with your posts... that is not the case at all. Hence, I point out I wasn't being combative and you dismiss it out of hand. Typical.
Bro... are you even serious. You made that claim several times. You even prompted several times for me to give examples of Zahard specifically moving and argued against everything that would indicate he could move. To the point you ended up arguing about anklets. Puh-leaze man, I QUOTED YOU ABOVE. If you argue (you did) Zahard cannot move freely while other rankers certainly CAN then you are arguing without question that he has MORE RESTRICTIONS than any other ranker. Dude, you even said that was likely the case because he's special and he's the king and under more scrutiny and probably gives up more freedom lolol... this is borderline insanity.
I also refute those 3-4 claims because it being 3... Enne I’ve said post where this implication is stated, Khel is a Ranker, and baby Baam is NOT a regular selected by Headon.... Those refute your claims
This is literally nonsensical. I can't read your mind with what claims you are responding to bc you don't quote you just reply in a wall of text. Only you reply to something specific apparently.
Baby Baam is NOT a ranker!!! Regardless, OTHER RANKERS have attacked him with no consequence. So, if you now suddenly think Zahard is no different, why couldn't he do the same in the same parts of the floor? This is literally asked in my very first post to you!!
Just look at the fight between Karaka and Yuri - Khun thinks the admin will respond bc regulars are in danger, but figures they won't if it's the will of the tower. Or any other fight where rankers and regulars are in close proximity - admin NEVER INTERFERE.
Um, yes, and for the umpteenth time I suggest it is something else we don't know. I don't assume Zahard can't travel outside his floor. I say that is possible, but not likely given what we know so far. I suggested many alternatives. You think being in agreement that he can't is somehow supportive of your non-factual opinion that Zahard is restricted on travel? Man, I've been saying there's a reason that Zahard can't from my first post. So if you think I'm somehow in agreement, why did you argue back? Oh, because you know I wasn't in agreement and this 'admission' means nothing if we can't agree on WHY.
More projection. I never said you were wrong for having an opinion - I left open the idea as possibility several times. I said cite examples as to why that's the case. I haven't seen a single iota of evidence as to WHY Zahard cannot leave his floor, which is literally what I asked over the course of about 10 posts.... And if there isn't any evidence, you are just stating opinion as fact. And if you incorrectly identify opinion as fact, then, yes, you are wrong (and that's completely impersonal and logically consistent - no goalpost shift on my end). Either you can give an example or you can't. You never did.
He's NO MORE protected than any other regular from any other ranker - depending on where he is in the floor. There are certainly areas where rankers can fight and even kill regulars and we have SEEN this happen.
Why can it not be he is restricted by the tower and admins in attacking Baam?
An admin transported Evk and YHS to the battle instantly, Why couldn’t Zahard do the same? You don’t give me a reason as to why but you wish for me to disbelieve my reason? A reason supported by SIU and lore of the story?
You are now implying Zahard has admin powers in this rhetoric? If I say 'please prove your assertion' - it's incorrect to say 'prove it's not the case!' in response. Do you or don't you have reasons why Zahard specifically cannot leave his perch?
lol, yes, admin that have to hide their one-off 'support' under the guise of firing EVK for underperformance. They clearly aren't in open, constant support (man, I already said this but you sure love to argue), and even SIU says they all have different personalities. Still, this has nothing to do with why Zahard can't do what, say, Kallavan can!
Wrong. The only time Baam was a FULL regular he was killed (he's now an irregular but treated as a regular). You don't think regulars in regular areas that have kids IN THE TOWER don't get the same treatment as regulars? Why was baby Baam not treated as any other person born in the tower??
WHAT RULES? Rules that any other ranker has to abide by? Yes, rankers can travel. And, yes, rankers can fight regulars in certain areas without recourse. Hence, Zahard should be able to do the same. Which is literally what I've been saying over and over and over...
