Match Kishin Oni vs PoP Oni

Who is stronger?


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-Ken-

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I'm not sure if Kishin is still activated while Oni activated his PoP. This match is also pretty much impossible to physically see in the manga unless someone copy Oni while playing Oni I guess.

We knows Kishin Oni completely stomp 10 Ball Kintarou and PoP Oni go 1-1 with PoP Kintarou, with each keeping their serve game. Obviously PoP Kintarou is way stronger than 10 Ball Kintarou but eh, which Oni do you think is stronger?
 

Kaoz

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I'm gonna say they're on the same level, but TnK!Oni would win if they played each other. I'll justify that after posting a new theory later.

The main reason why I'm posting here now though: would you like me to add a poll?
 

-Ken-

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Ah, sure. I never quite know how to add a poll here. It's kind of confusing compare to other board I was on.

[kaoz]Done.[/kaoz]
 
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Kaoz

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I'm gonna say they're on the same level, but TnK!Oni would win if they played each other. I'll justify that after posting a new theory later.
Alright, here we go. Basically, I think that at best Kijin!Oni and TnK!Oni would be evenly matched. But at some point, Kijin!Oni's performance would drop just enough for TnK!Oni to pull ahead. In other words, there shouldn't be a noticeable difference in strength I think, just that TnK!Oni is slightly more consistent than Kijin!Oni.
 

ashore2

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I want both used in the tournament! To see the combined powers should be awesome.
 

Ganonslayer101

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Honestly I'm thinking Kishin Oni if only because the Introduction of These Spirit Form things seems like it's supposed to be taken as a next level ability where as TnK in theory is Just your bodies 100% potential versus Spirit's Extra Dimensional Power. Close Game Overall though, I think I would need to know if Spirit causes any Stamina Drop just by using it or is it a free move?
 

Kaoz

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So, Ken, I see you voted TnK!Oni as well, but I'm curious to hear your reasoning.
 

-Ken-

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PoP just, to me, seems to be an ultimate door or state that anyone can be in. Asura seems to be more common in the world, and many top HS seem to be able to use it. Whereas PoP is a move exclusive only to Nanjiroh, the super tennis player who beat #1 player in the world prior to Ryoma obtaining it. I know rarity=/=power, but I like to think there's some correlation. Enjoying tennis in these death match are also a pretty hard thing to do overall.
 

ybr99

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PoP is a state that gives you the feeling of your first time playing. The reason why oni was able to beat byoudin was because he was reminded of the kids at the orphanage so i think for oni PoP would not be as strong because it is him as an individual and not him playing to keep a promise to the kids. This is only for oni though for someone else like ryoma PoP would be stronger.
 

Phantron

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I think PoP and Kishin both have their strengths. Despite repeatedly claims, hitting a shot hard enough to blow someone up still remains one of the most effective ways to win in POT. Kishin/Pirate aura moves strikes me more like shock & awe like you're trying to make the opponent give up immediately, as in even if you're not trying to maim your opponent it's a good idea to hit a couple shots like that and then your opponent will be too scared to fight back, while PoP obviously is more of a sustained method.
 

-Ken-

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http://2.p.mpcdn.net/21894/518734/12.jpg

There's also this page. A pro contractor is apparently impress by PoP. Now, he's dealing in the pros world filled with the likes of Kishin and Howling. So I think PoP is probably very impressive and a rarity (the rarity part is confirm at least.)
 

Fayte

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Kishin is just a metaphor for what is within a person's being. It is no different from "Samurai" Ryoma/Nanjiroh. It isn't actually a "state" like the mugas, which boosts one's abilities to a greater state than before. It is the opponent's realization of who one truly is. This is why the poll was a no-brainer for me. Kishin just makes the opponent intimidated, causing them to play worse, whereas PoP makes the user better.
 

Anera

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I don't have a clear opinion on the matter yet, but something bothers me :

Kishin is just a metaphor for what is within a person's being. It is no different from "Samurai" Ryoma/Nanjiroh. It isn't actually a "state" like the mugas, which boosts one's abilities to a greater state than before. It is the opponent's realization of who one truly is. This is why the poll was a no-brainer for me. Kishin just makes the opponent intimidated, causing them to play worse, whereas PoP makes the user better.
Isn't it a bit reductive ? I mean, there is no proof that a player plays worse than usual when he faces an opponent with Kijin. Your comment makes it sound like it's not really something strong but the player who has Kijin sees his performance being way above what a player in a normal state can do. (so, yeah, the player who has not Kijin plays "worse", in a way :XD, but no, he just plays as usual) It's not just a metaphor.
 

-Ken-

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I also don't think it's just a metaphor. Byoudonin Kishin/Kijin plays so much better from the point that they are playing equally to each other to the point that he is beating Tokugawa down pretty one sidedly until he got whoop by black hole.
 

Fayte

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Isn't it a bit reductive ? I mean, there is no proof that a player plays worse than usual when he faces an opponent with Kijin. Your comment makes it sound like it's not really something strong but the player who has Kijin sees his performance being way above what a player in a normal state can do. (so, yeah, the player who has not Kijin plays "worse", in a way :XD, but no, he just plays as usual) It's not just a metaphor.
Ken said:
I also don't think it's just a metaphor. Byoudonin Kishin/Kijin plays so much better from the point that they are playing equally to each other to the point that he is beating Tokugawa down pretty one sidedly until he got whoop by black hole.
Let me explain what I mean:

You cannot understand Kishin without first understanding "Samurai Echizen." Samurai Echizen is where all of this began. Only those of a certain tennis discernment are able to perceive the samurai of Echizen's "inner-self." The samurai does not make Ryoma play better. It isn't muga. Sanada was able to perceive who Echizen truly is at heart. This actually happens in real life. You cannot understand what Konomi is doing if you have not played real tennis matches before. Konomi is making artistic reinterpretations of the concept of momentum. If you ever played a bunch of tennis matches (or any other sport, really), there is a deeply mysterious element to the game, where all of a sudden your once evenly matched opponent gets three points in a row, which turns to four points, and you have no idea what is happening right now. Sometimes it goes the other way, when you start getting multiple points in a row on your opponent (it is also why timeouts exist). This is what Konomi is articulating when depicting Echizen as a samurai; causing Sanada to lose his mental game. Oni is not literally a demon, Byoudouin is not literally a skeleton pirate, and Echizen is not literally a samurai, so it is by definition a metaphor.
 
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Anera

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Let me explain what I mean:

You cannot understand Kishin without first understanding "Samurai Echizen." Samurai Echizen is where all of this began. Only those of a certain tennis discernment are able to perceive the samurai of Echizen's "inner-self." The samurai does not make Ryoma play better. It isn't muga. Sanada was able to perceive who Echizen truly is at heart. This actually happens in real life. You cannot understand what Konomi is doing if you have not played real tennis matches before. Konomi is making artistic reinterpretations of the concept of momentum. If you ever played a bunch of tennis matches (or any other sport, really), there is a deeply mysterious element to the game, where all of a sudden your once evenly matched opponent gets three points in a row, which turns to four points, and you have no idea what is happening right now. Sometimes it goes the other way, when you start getting multiple points in a row on your opponent (it is also why timeouts exist).
Wait, imo, it has nothing to do with the concept of momentum. (and no need to play tennis to know what it means btw) I mean, there is always a momentum at some point in a match and it doesn't need to be materialized by Kijin. Why would Konomi give a special name if it hasn't something different ? And it IS different. The players really play wonderfully well and are at the top of their abilities. So, you can say, it's exactly what you meant. But not exactly : the difference between Kijin and a situation of a momentum is that when a player has Kijin, his abilities are way above what a player could have with a simple psychological advantage (which allows you to play better than usual but still). What you described sounds more like the Zone State. I'm not saying it's the Zone State, just that it seems closer to it. Kijin seems to offer so much more and it seems to me that it's not only a growth in the player's abilities. But since we don't have a lot of elements to analyze, it's a bit hard to explain.

This is what Konomi is articulating when depicting Echizen as a samurai; causing Sanada to lose his mental game. Oni is not literally a demon, Byoudouin is not literally a skeleton pirate, and Echizen is not literally a samurai, so it is by definition a metaphor.
Well, I agree on that, of course that the personification is a metaphor. :XD It doesn't mean that Kijin itself is a metaphor, we can't deny it provides something more.
 

-Ken-

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Momentum is real life. This is a manga.. Kishin essentially is a state. Otherwise, Konomi wouldn't mention that someone enter this path of asura or whatever in his manga.

Byoudonin plays better using Kishin than his average tennis, as shown in his tennis match with Tokugawa. Oni when he start using Kishin also dominate Kintarou. Konomi is telling us that it's a special move. I agree that Oni is not literally a demon, Byoudouin is not literally a skeleton pirate, and Echizen is not literally a samurai, so in that sense it is a metaphor. But in this state they do plays better than usual. It's shown wuth Oni, Byoudonin, and Tokugawa. And their tennis play from before just simply cannot match. If you don't call that a boost, what is?
 

Fayte

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Can either of you prove to me that these things are not what I said they were? If they are muga/states, why is it not mentioned as such in the manga? I think this requires a lot more nuance than simply saying, "Oni go demon. Demon get de points. Therefore, Oni get stronger by demon." Me taking performance enhancing drugs to boost my body is not the same as my opponent playing worse.

Anera, you are right that momentum is part of every match, and I'm not saying that's all it is. I'm using it as a comparison to describe why Oni getting stronger is just an illusion. Oni's demon form is just a means of telling the reader that Oni is special, and has a unique style of tennis. I do not call Kishin muga because Konomi doesn't call it muga. I am open to hearing your arguments to the contrary.
 

-Ken-

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Can you prove it's NOT a state? It is not mention anywhere that it is not. I prove it to you by showing that all those guys get stronger when they show it. Can you show that it's mention that it's a momentum thing like you say it is? Can you show that they don't get stronger but they are at that strength to begin with?

For Byoudonin, it's show in this way
http://2.p.mpcdn.net/21894/437648/13.jpg
They were EQUAL before Byoudonin use Kishin. There's a clear difference. The ball get harder to return for Oni and Tokugawa. They didn't play worse. Byoudonin just got better.

For Oni, it's even clearer.
http://2.p.mpcdn.net/21894/397871/6.jpg?1429334091
They say 2 years ago have return. If he's playing at this strength, then Oni would always be in Kishin mode, but clearly he's not, because it say so.
http://2.p.mpcdn.net/21894/397871/10.jpg?1429334091
This suggests that Oni have not using Kishin for the past 2 years. It also suggests that he got stronger by using it.

Lastly, Tokugawa. In the most recent chapter, it's mention that

Byoudouin: So…you’ve entered into the “Divine Path of the Asura” once more…
How can you enter something that is not a state? Oh, is he saying "you enter a momentum once more"? It's also represent by a picture just like all the other Kishin

http://41.media.tumblr.com/5d50d840148cd16515bf6a5e1835d200/tumblr_nyue6k7eBq1r76r68o3_500.jpg

Now, I show you some pages that shows Kishin give buff and are not default to every match. It also seems to be a state that someone can enter. Can you show pages from the manga that might say otherwise.
 

Kaoz

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I don't think Kijin and Asura are the same, but that's besides the point. In the end it doesn't really matter whether any of these are states or not, that's just a label we've made up after all. What matters is that all of them are visualized concepts in some way. Muga isn't something Konomi made up, it's an actual concept. TnK too, it's just having fun in the end. Kijin represents incredible concentration. Obviously you're going to play better when you're more concentrated, I doubt anyone would contest that.

And I don't think it matters if we say "These moves increase performance by themselves" or "These moves are representations of things that also happen to increase performance." The end result is the same.
 
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