Match Kishin Oni vs PoP Oni

[Anera]

Me taking performance enhancing drugs to boost my body is not the same as my opponent playing worse.

I think it's mainly the part where we disagree. What makes you think the opponent plays worse by facing someone with Kijin ? I mean, there is no evidence of that in the manga.

Anera, you are right that momentum is part of every match, and I'm not saying that's all it is. I'm using it as a comparison to describe why Oni getting stronger is just an illusion. Oni's demon form is just a means of telling the reader that Oni is special, and has a unique style of tennis. I do not call Kishin muga because Konomi doesn't call it muga. I am open to hearing your arguments to the contrary.

But Konomi drawed a metaphor for each thing which allows the player to be stronger in some way. I don't see how it invalidates my point, it's clear that Oni was way stronger. I don't understand what makes you think that Oni was not really strong and it was an illusion. If the metaphor of the demon is your proof, then, for instance, auras are illusions as well. (edit : I mean, what auras bring to the player in terms of strength)

 

[Fayte]

Can you prove it's NOT a state? It is not mention anywhere that it is not. I prove it to you by showing that all those guys get stronger when they show it. Can you show that it's mention that it's a momentum thing like you say it is? Can you show that they don't get stronger but they are at that strength to begin with?

Neither of us can "prove" anything. Proof requires irrefutable evidence. I am merely suggesting the "evidence" suggests these manifestations are in an entirely different category, and should not be viewed literally and at face value, as if interpreting muga.

For Byoudonin, it's show in this way
http://2.p.mpcdn.net/21894/437648/13.jpg
They were EQUAL before Byoudonin use Kishin. There's a clear difference. The ball get harder to return for Oni and Tokugawa. They didn't play worse. Byoudonin just got better.

For Oni, it's even clearer.
http://2.p.mpcdn.net/21894/397871/6.jpg?1429334091
They say 2 years ago have return. If he's playing at this strength, then Oni would always be in Kishin mode, but clearly he's not, because it say so.
http://2.p.mpcdn.net/21894/397871/10.jpg?1429334091
This suggests that Oni have not using Kishin for the past 2 years. It also suggests that he got stronger by using it.

Lastly, Tokugawa. In the most recent chapter, it's mention that



How can you enter something that is not a state? Oh, is he saying "you enter a momentum once more"? It's also represent by a picture just like all the other Kishin

http://41.media.tumblr.com/5d50d840148cd16515bf6a5e1835d200/tumblr_nyue6k7eBq1r76r68o3_500.jpg

Now, I show you some pages that shows Kishin give buff and are not default to every match. It also seems to be a state that someone can enter. Can you show pages from the manga that might say otherwise.

Remember what I said about Samurai Echizen. The Samurai is who Echizen is. Echizen doesn't need to improve to become a samurai, he just needs to find himself. What this means is that Echizen is always and has always been the samurai, he was just distracted by all other things that do not matter. It's the same with Oni. Oni has always been Kishin at the core of his being, it's just a matter of whether or not he chooses to acknowledge it.

For example, I think it would help if I put my argument in mathematical terms:

• Kishin = 100%
• Normal = 50%.
• PoP = 200%

If you want to call going from 50% to 100% as getting stronger, that's fine. I don't.

PoP takes a similar concept of reducing one's desires, morphing the desire to win into the desire to play, which allows the player to go beyond what they are normally capable of. I do not believe, for example, that anyone besides Oni can obtain Kishin. I do not believe anyone besides Byoudouin can become the buccaneer, etc. Those manifestations are depictions of what is already within the individual.

 

[-Ken-]

Well, in your math sense, it shows that both Kishin and PoP go beyond the "normal" self. However, we seriously do not knows if PoP go beyond normal self more than Kishin or otherwise. Which is pretty much why I make this topic.

 

[Phantron]

The weird thing about Kishin/Pirate is that to an outside observer it indeed looks just like 100% whereas something like Muga it is apparent to an outside observer that someone with it is functioning at above 100%. For example we know from an outside observer pirate basically just looks the same as Byodoin hitting the ball really hard. To an outside observer Kishin just looks like Oni actually playing seriously. So then the question is how come their normal level is so low? It goes beyond the usual 'I was holding back'. If Byodoin played himself with pirate versus without it'd be a straight up 6-0 and might not even score a point. Likewise there's probably a similar drop off for Oni.

The only thing I can think of that's comparable would be Frieza's minus 1/2/3 forms, as he for seemingly inexplicable reasons went through a lot of effort to invent transformations that massively power himself down compared to his original form.

 

[Kaoz]

For example we know from an outside observer pirate basically just looks the same as Byodoin hitting the ball really hard. To an outside observer Kishin just looks like Oni actually playing seriously.

Actually not true. When Oni brought out Kijin against Kintarou, the audience also commented on seeing a demon. I also think it's counter-intuitive to say they're holding back that much. They're holding back in the sense that they're not using the move, but I don't think it means Oni only plays at 40% of his "normal" strength unless you also say that Tezuka plays at 40% if he's not using TnK.

 

[Fayte]

They're holding back in the sense that they're not using the move, but I don't think it means Oni only plays at 40% of his "normal" strength unless you also say that Tezuka plays at 40% if he's not using TnK.

Was Echizen was playing at 100% against Yukimura before PoP? I would argue that he was, and PoP pushed him over the edge, like the concept of "overclocking" a computer. It is increased power consumption to increase speed, but it can be unstable. This is basically the definition of muga. This imagery looks very different from stuff like Samurai Echizen and Kishin, which is more reminiscent of simply being "in the zone," so to speak.

I would like to hear what Sai has to say about this stuff.

 

[Fuuji Genichiro]

my theory is that PoP simply blocks all those negative emotions that prevents a player from going full 100% thus unlocking true strength, the definition was simply that the player feels bliss by enjoying tennis to the fullest, and that that was all there is to it.
Therefore we can assume that PoP "unlocks" and doesn't add strength that isn't there.
Whereas Kijjin is about the concept of "inner self", by taking tennis so seriously that it about life and death.
"taking tennis so seriously that it is a matter of life and death" and "enjoying tennis to the fullest" feel like polar opposites, in fact they are so contrasting that i feel that they are actually 2 sides of the same coin. Now i realize that PoP comes from muga but it think that there are two paths, the kijin path and the teni muho path, i think Nanjirou dominating at the top was maybe some kind of symbolism , im sure that the pro's take tennis as serious as these highschoolers, im sure even Volk does. so maybe alot of pro's have unlocked the two stages of muga and while most of them take the kijjin path, nanjirou takes the other path.
meh, its just a crazy theory and this isnt a manga where craziest theories are the most likely ones

as to pro's using muga, maybe its a thing where a select few are able to use it, but it becomes so natural that the auras dont need to be visible.


i know i know, konomi isnt Echiiro Oda when it comes to writing manga, but just maybe he has been reading a little OP.

 

[Kaoz]

Was Echizen was playing at 100% against Yukimura before PoP? I would argue that he was, and PoP pushed him over the edge, like the concept of "overclocking" a computer.

Well, in general I'd also say he was, but from my perspective that just means Ryoma played the best he was capable of without accessing TnK. Likewise, after unveiling 10 Ball Strike against Kintarou (or basically the entire match against Byoudouin), I would argue that Oni played the best he was capable of without accessing Kijin. I don't see a reason to say Ryoma went from 100% to 200%, but Oni went from 50% to 100%; either both went from 100 to 200 or both went from 50 to 100, anything else feels like a double standard to me.

 

[Fayte]

Well, in general I'd also say he was, but from my perspective that just means Ryoma played the best he was capable of without accessing TnK. Likewise, after unveiling 10 Ball Strike against Kintarou (or basically the entire match against Byoudouin), I would argue that Oni played the best he was capable of without accessing Kijin. I don't see a reason to say Ryoma went from 100% to 200%, but Oni went from 50% to 100%; either both went from 100 to 200 or both went from 50 to 100, anything else feels like a double standard to me.

You would at least agree that Kijin is different from PoP in that everyone cannot access it, right? Would you agree with me that ONLY Oni has it? If you grant this, then I find no reason to believe it would be a double standard, because the two are clearly not the same. It is comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Anera]

You would at least agree that Kijin is different from PoP in that everyone cannot access it, right? Would you agree with me that ONLY Oni has it? If you grant this, then I find no reason to believe it would be a double standard, because the two are clearly not the same. It is comparing apples to oranges.

Well, since Kijin is obviously a great improvement in one way or another, I don't see the point to be in that kind of state if you wasn't already struggling at 100% of your strength. :/

 

[-Ken-]

You would at least agree that Kijin is different from PoP in that everyone cannot access it, right? Would you agree with me that ONLY Oni has it? If you grant this, then I find no reason to believe it would be a double standard, because the two are clearly not the same. It is comparing apples to oranges.

It is double standard because Kishin and PoP both improve one's play. The extent that it can improve is pretty much immeasurable. We don't know which one improve one play more.

 

[Kaoz]

You would at least agree that Kijin is different from PoP in that everyone cannot access it, right? Would you agree with me that ONLY Oni has it? If you grant this, then I find no reason to believe it would be a double standard, because the two are clearly not the same. It is comparing apples to oranges.

No, I wouldn't as we've already seen Byoudouin use it. Yes, his self is a pirate and not a demon, but even if the form is different, it's fundamentally the same technique.

 

[Fayte]

Well, since Kijin is obviously a great improvement in one way or another, I don't see the point to be in that kind of state if you wasn't already struggling at 100% of your strength. :/

There is a point, if you interpret Kijin as being "in the zone." Your interpretation of Kijin makes PoP redundant.

It is double standard because Kishin and PoP both improve one's play. The extent that it can improve is pretty much immeasurable. We don't know which one improve one play more.

Why would Oni need PoP if Kijin was enough? Doesn't that fact alone prove that PoP is better?

No, I wouldn't as we've already seen Byoudouin use it. Yes, his self is a pirate and not a demon, but even if the form is different, it's fundamentally the same technique.

I specifically said Kijin. Would you agree that Oni is the only one with a demon form? Byoudouin does not have Kijin.

 

[-Ken-]

Why would Oni need PoP if Kijin was enough? Doesn't that fact alone prove that PoP is better?

Did you happen to miss a page that Oni return ace before PoP kick in? No, that fact doesn't prove anything. Why do Sanada bring out Ka if Fuu is enough? Why do Echizen also activate Saiki when he was using only Hyakuren to score points? Why do Tezuka toward the end was already owning Yamato but he bring out PoP anyway? This logic is just flaw and doesn't prove anything.

Now, if you look the first page you'll see that I and Kaoz also vote for PoP. But your logic of random number jumping just seems weird.

 

[Kaoz]

I specifically said Kijin. Would you agree that Oni is the only one with a demon form? Byoudouin does not have Kijin.

Kijin is not specifically the demon form though. In other words, you're asking me two different questions here. Yes, Oni is the only one who has a demon as Kijin. No, Oni is not the only one with Kijin.

 

[Fuuji Genichiro]

there could very well be other demons in the world though. and no acknowledgement of my theories :/, meh, if my theories do turn out to be true...i will brag foe a very long time