IIRC bam specifically says data viole's skills were the same as his own. Also, it makes zero sense for the data world to create a nemesis that is that much weaker than its target for no reason.
Ah, before shinsoo training both of them would probably lose. Post shinsoo training we are talking an entirely different animal. Shinsoo boost on top of actually fighting while playing to their strengths and talents... My take is that post shinsoo training both of them were plainly above the D class (barring akryun type exceptions). Because their performance is just that good. Making short work of hidden floor tests, androsi holding her own against white (impressive even with support), fucking miseng owning high end d class regulars...
It was only for a brief moment though. The Nemeses were not at all the same level, Androssi's was much stronger than her for example. And even in Baam's case, with the Thorn he was simply too strong for Data Viole.
Since it was Baam before he got the Thorn, I think he didn't have the techniques Baam got later and his improvements in these areas skill-wise etc. No Shinwonryu for example, or the enhanced range from the Red Thryssa, but he was created with the strength that the current Baam had in base.
You think both AA and Rak can beat Elaine, but do you think they would beat her easily or that it would be very difficult? And if you think they are that strong how do you think they would fare against Androssi or White(without Albeda) in a fight?
Just a correction, Beta is not regular, it is even mentioned that he only manages to enter the hell train inside a lighthouse because it is considered an item. This is probably also the way he climbs the tower with the others.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Inieta lost to Kaiser because of the location. I don't think Elaine is weak, but the name hunt station is not a parameter for judging her abilities because there she had an advantage that made her practically invincible.
Thanks for the correction. Really need to reread the WS arc from the beginning.
Elaine definitely has advantages because of the location but she is still pretty strong. In a fight Inieta shouldn't even be bothered by the range that much considering how Arie Swordsmanship works.
SIU created a gap impossible to bridge between even the most talented regular and Rankers. He is probably trying to figure out how to overcome that in this arc since Ranker tier battles have started and he can't break his law. Won't discard regulars but can't make them enough either. I really doubt he would let Androssi fight Mascheny and not get easily curbstomped. If he did that it would be bad writting.
My solution to this was suggested long ago: let Bam use the Red Thryssa to grant power to his friends. SIU can't stall it further. Bam is out fighting Jahad squads, the time is now.
Ah, my point was that it was technically plausible for androsi to eventually overcome mascheny. hundreds or thousands of years from now... But yeah, if the two meet right now then it'd be absurd that androsi could even scratch her. Even if mascheny is sleeping and with her guard down...
TBH I don't think even that would be enough. It's not only a power gap to account for but also a skill gap. Bam even with his absurd talent is still largely playing catchup to rankers. I would even argue bam falls short of normal rankers in terms of skill but he is able to make up for it via raw power... It is worth noting that bam's friends are also growing at unnaturally fast rates. And odds are their shinsoo qualities will only increase their growth rate going forward.
I agree in that being top of your class is probably the bare minimum to maybe evidence ranker like potential. But there is an important consideration to make here: Bam's class was beyond exceptional in most regards. It had a princess, a half princess, multiple people from the 10 families (aguero, laure...), some asshole with an ignition weapon, 2 irregulars, hatz and even fucking akryung.. Under more normal circumstances any of the big names in there would have easily been top of the class. Personally, I would argue the actual top of that class was basically akryung (because shenanigans), then androsi, then anak and then laure.
Add to that, the hidden floor arc added further context regarding aguero and rak... Aguero to begin with avoided fighting, which probably limited his strength, but we also learn the guy didn't even bother to train his shinsoo talent, in this case an spear. This is a series were talent is basically what makes or breaks a character, hard work be dammed... and aguero avoided his talent for a third of the way of his climb. He was already pretty strong (to the point where the point was made he injured one of the top five e class regulars back in the day) but even then he has more talent than anyone had given him credit for. Then you have rak... who was literally cursed by zahard to not be able to use his power. He lucked out against levi during the final station but even then he easily overpowered him. His real talent is an unknown quantity right now.
Mascheny has a few advantages over androsi (being from the 10 families and having being boosted by zahard) but I don't think the difference between them is necessarily unsurmountable. Though it will likely take hundreds or thousands of years to overcome. androsi was chosen to be a princess for her talent and by all appearances her shinsoo quality seems pretty damn unique. Pre shinsoo quality androsi certainly did not hold a candle to mascheny but post shinsoo quality I would argue it's at least a fight.
Like you said in TOG training as no real purpose , it make you stronger , you use you skill in a better way , you have more skill , but it doesn't make way stronger , only talent does .
It was said that people have a ceiling and whatever you do you can't supass it , people who train harder reach that ceiling faster , Baam who is training like a mad men , do you think that if he didn't train he would not reach this level in 10 years ? Yes he would .
Yez Baam friend are good but not even, exceptionnal , between the present regular , for example Yuri as a D grade was holding back against her big sister , even if her sister didn't hold back , but we know that is likely that she was close to her sister .
Androssi hasn't even showed anything special , she is good , but if i have to choose between her weird shinsoo quality , and 10 FH family princess i would choose 10 family princess .
I mean we know how deadly are Hon family , imagine a hon jahad priness . That would be a hoaquin , but way more stronger .
We aso saw Kaiser , just imagine her as a jahad princess , a unparlalled long distance figther with a powerful hand to hand combat . That is the 2 LPB sister .
I mean when it come to hand to hand , they are better because they have more powerful body , and the deciding factor for me is they special skill of they family , that Androssi doesn' have .
I mean her weird skill doens't seem to compare , to Kaiser special skill , to Arie sword , to redan etc etc . she could be as stro,g as a regular princess , but she would have to proove it .
Other than that Baam other friend are ranker potential and only Ran and and few other have HR potential .
Please reread her figth against Jahad and tell me if you really thiink Androssi can sustain a figth against Mashchenny , regular Maschenny would eradicate all Baam team by herself , and i am not even joking , let's put AA out because of his OP power .
Maschenny is way too strong as a regular , and all people that are in top 100 way monster like her , Ha Jinsung .
I don't think that Androssi has showed something that can make us think that she can attain the top 100 or 200 , saying that in 1000 of years she could is based on nothing .
Ignoring the fact that Baam doesn't really even have enough to properly handle himself now. Sharing his precious resources out to other people leaves him weaker when he absolutely has to be stronger.
He has the allies he needs. They're just not the ones that the crowd are stamping their feet and demanding SIU twist the narrative to fill those roles. Why does he need Rak and Hatsu when he has Evankhell and White?
Kuhn did nothing to actually defeat White, you know this and I do. He trusted Baam, that was his ultimate decision... and thanks for proving my point, you can explain him away but he wasn’t present in the fights. Whether he was needed or not is a device directly employed by the author so he doesn’t have to fight... Not even as a momentary participant. Essentially sidelining him. Which was my initial refutation of your incredulity at the thought that SIU would do that. Yet you admit he’s done it with Rak, well now you just have to admit he’s done it with AA too.
I thought I did something? Yeah proved my point with evidence something you’re unwilling or incapable of. AA doesn’t care the method only the outcome, hence he would be fine letting someone else beat his father. Which most concur with, but you’re continuing? Why? You weren’t correct in stating he needed to do it himself. That’s not AA’s character and never has been. Or did you believe he never trained because he was lazy? No, he states on the data floor he could never beat him so why try. Alluding to his plan to usurp the position not by strength, not by direct confrontation.
No source on Enryu not appearing so you’ll just ignore you ever said it huh?
And what I actually implied with the statement about Enryu is that it would be foolish to send a threat and follow it up with something incapable of actually following through with that threat under any circumstance. So LOL you should infer correctly!
The Thorn isn’t Enryu’s power, he was to deliver the thorn... Which is why it never claims he used it, only that it was left where the administrator was slain. And just to play devils advocate, does it matter? Your point about it being a portion so he can’t surpass him is ill conceived. It assumes Baam’s other powers (and whatever else he accumulates) wouldn’t make a difference. When the reality in fact could be that Baam reaches a level close to Enryu and the Thorn tops it off. Or if it is the whole of Enryu’s power it would automatically elevate Baam beyond Enryu. As with the first scenario it’s an addition to another pool of power so to say...
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
And well you seemed to be mixing up Phanta and Enryu. As SIU only stated Phanta probably won’t appear not Enryu. So I had to make the distinction for you as to why it’s unlikely Phanta would appear and Enryu likely would. And that’s because one is an Axis and the other isn’t... Never did I say you said Enryu was an axis...
LOL you've lost sight of the conversation. I said SIU wouldn't sideline Khun, that was my point, Khun wasn't sidelined. Like I pointed out before, most of your examples fell flat, you used damn Hell Joe as an example when Urek did all the actual fighting in that situation. I only admitted he done it with Rak because that was the truth, Khun has been actively been in the plot since he's been reawoken and has been heavily involved with fights whenever he's been in the story, the same can't be said for Rak. Whether or not Khun has been directly helping Baam (which you're focusing on, which wasn't my point. Don't know why you were fixated on him having a group fight with Baam).
Please, Khun cares about his goals. His goal wasn't simply "I want my father dead" his goal was to beat his father and become the head of the family. So no, he wouldn't be fine with someone just waltzing up to Eduan and beating him. Khun wants to be the head of his family, which requires him to beat his father, this doesn't have to be in a straight-up brawl but it doesn't mean he'll be Baam's cheerleader as he fights Eduan. Yeah, him not fighting doesn't mean he'll sit back and set Baam on his father like some type of attack dog.
Yeah, I misremembered the Enryu quote.
No, you implied that Enryu couldn't bring Jahad's destruction. And your point doesn't support Baam stronger than Enryu, all it ensures that Baam will end up being strong enough to usurp Jahad and kill him.
You're right, it doesn't matter that much if the thorn is Enryu's or not. Though I doubt the thorn is all of Baam's power.
LOL you've lost sight of the conversation. I said SIU wouldn't sideline Khun, that was my point, Khun wasn't sidelined. Like I pointed out before, most of your examples fell flat, you used damn Hell Joe as an example when Urek did all the actual fighting in that situation. I only admitted he done it with Rak because that was the truth, Khun has been actively been in the plot since he's been reawoken and has been heavily involved with fights whenever he's been in the story, the same can't be said for Rak. Whether or not Khun has been directly helping Baam (which you're focusing on, which wasn't my point. Don't know why you were fixated on him having a group fight with Baam).
Please, Khun cares about his goals. His goal wasn't simply "I want my father dead" his goal was to beat his father and become the head of the family. So no, he wouldn't be fine with someone just waltzing up to Eduan and beating him. Khun wants to be the head of his family, which requires him to beat his father, this doesn't have to be in a straight-up brawl but it doesn't mean he'll be Baam's cheerleader as he fights Eduan. Yeah, him not fighting doesn't mean he'll sit back and set Baam on his father like some type of attack dog.
Yeah, I misremembered the Enryu quote.
No, you implied that Enryu couldn't bring Jahad's destruction. And your point doesn't support Baam stronger than Enryu, all it ensures that Baam will end up being strong enough to usurp Jahad and kill him.
You're right, it doesn't matter that much if the thorn is Enryu's or not. Though I doubt the thorn is all of Baam's power.
He was sidelined though.... That didn’t fall flat, because he didn’t participate HENCE he was sidelined. I didn’t lose sight of anything don’t be dense it happened and you admitted it. Your statement is that he would not, neither with Rak OR AA... You’ve been proven wrong... Subtract Hell Joe if that sparks your ire so much, who else did he fight with? You’ll just explain it away without ever realizing the point. As the second most popular/important character he should be fighting and helping Baam, NOT useless to the point the author invents reasons you can’t participate or only just.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
And once again he has admitted himself (AA) he CAN’T beat his father. That isn’t implying anything other than the intent. The intent he won’t fight him as he never will surpass him or even get close enough to beat him himself.If he gets him deposed by his plans and assumes power has he not defeated his father?
Reread the hidden floor especially his interactions with Edahn and obviously his words.
and don’t try to tread backward you said something to the effect of “He wouldn’t let Baam defeat him for him” not “Somebody else(Baam) will probably defeat Edahn with AA’s help” and even still he’s letting Baam defeat Edahn regardless of his participation because he can’t do it! Don’t move goalposts.
LOL you've lost sight of the conversation. I said SIU wouldn't sideline Khun, that was my point, Khun wasn't sidelined. Like I pointed out before, most of your examples fell flat, you used damn Hell Joe as an example when Urek did all the actual fighting in that situation. I only admitted he done it with Rak because that was the truth, Khun has been actively been in the plot since he's been reawoken and has been heavily involved with fights whenever he's been in the story, the same can't be said for Rak. Whether or not Khun has been directly helping Baam (which you're focusing on, which wasn't my point. Don't know why you were fixated on him having a group fight with Baam).
Please, Khun cares about his goals. His goal wasn't simply "I want my father dead" his goal was to beat his father and become the head of the family. So no, he wouldn't be fine with someone just waltzing up to Eduan and beating him. Khun wants to be the head of his family, which requires him to beat his father, this doesn't have to be in a straight-up brawl but it doesn't mean he'll be Baam's cheerleader as he fights Eduan. Yeah, him not fighting doesn't mean he'll sit back and set Baam on his father like some type of attack dog.
Yeah, I misremembered the Enryu quote.
No, you implied that Enryu couldn't bring Jahad's destruction. And your point doesn't support Baam stronger than Enryu, all it ensures that Baam will end up being strong enough to usurp Jahad and kill him.
You're right, it doesn't matter that much if the thorn is Enryu's or not. Though I doubt the thorn is all of Baam's power.
Yeah, He has been active in the plot just not the fights which was what Dryst was talking about... He conveniently is a non factor in all of the fights until the wall and then he’s only a strategist using questionable methods to protect Baam. For the secondary and tertiary characters who aren’t sidelined that’s pretty poor. Seeming only to show up as some kind of fan service and not have any impact on the dangers at hand.
And lastly you can’t tell me what I implied as you can only infer given what you perceive is my point. I know the intent and the point I was intending to make. And it was just that! Why send a threat and then not send the means to follow up with such a threat under any circumstance? So, as I was imparting it’s foolish to send your lieutenant with a threat and the weapon just might not cut it “IF” (insert scenario).... That’s the point! I never forgot about Arlene’s prophecy and I got your point but still you underestimate exactly what Baam is to do, consume all! Per the prophecy or the threat, lol whichever!
and to be honest you’ve already literally admitted to all of my points whether consciously or not... So good debate but let’s not continue!
Mascheny has a few advantages over androsi (being from the 10 families and having being boosted by zahard) but I don't think the difference between them is necessarily unsurmountable. Though it will likely take hundreds or thousands of years to overcome. androsi was chosen to be a princess for her talent and by all appearances her shinsoo quality seems pretty damn unique. Pre shinsoo quality androsi certainly did not hold a candle to mascheny but post shinsoo quality I would argue it's at least a fight.
Between HF Maschenny and HF Endorsi, there is a massive gap :
-Endorsi with strong teammates (Hansung, Baam) was struggling against monsters far weaker than the big breeders.
-Chung, the weakest big breeder can fodderize any of these monsters.
-Jeok (the bull big breeder) was noted to be much stronger than Chung and Asencio fought on par with him.
-Base Maschenny one shotted Jeok with a casual attack before he knows what happened to him.
-Redan Maschenny is physically several folds above her base self.
As you could see, there're multiple "big gaps" between HF Endorsi and HF Maschenny. I didn't perform meticulous calculations but the number "hundred" that I noted in my previous post makes sens.
Or said in more broader terms, you actually need "countless" Endorsis to stand a chance against Data Mas'.
If you think just learning a shinsu quality made her this much stronger, you can go with it but IMO, unlike Khun and Rak, learning a quality didn't made Endorsi much stronger than what she was and I've got solid facts proving that :
Between the heart shinsu quality and her princess body + body strengthening, it's pretty clear which is harder to deal with.
The hearts cetainly give her more vesatility (the ability to attack from range, strike multiple ennemies at once, etc), but other than that, nothing special really. Even with it, she'd still struggle against the monsters beneath big breeders with almost the same difficulty, despite the support of powerful teammates. It's not enough as a PU to match foes who were already just solidly stronger than her, let alone folks who stood on a whole another level.
I agree in that being top of your class is probably the bare minimum to maybe evidence ranker like potential. But there is an important consideration to make here: Bam's class was beyond exceptional in most regards. It had a princess, a half princess, multiple people from the 10 families (aguero, laure...), some asshole with an ignition weapon, 2 irregulars, hatz and even fucking akryung.. Under more normal circumstances any of the big names in there would have easily been top of the class. Personally, I would argue the actual top of that class was basically akryung (because shenanigans), then androsi, then anak and then laure.
Below is the blogpost part we're talking about :
"here aren't really many regulars with the highest level of combat skill other than Baam, Endorsi, and Sachi in team Baam...
In Khun's case, he becomes OP if he uses Enna Core, but that should be regarded as an exception.
So this time, I thought the story needed some events that can be the beginning footstep for Khun and Rak to be on the same level,like having their own abilities."
SIU wasn't comparing Khun and Rak to the regulars who usually ally with him (Laure, Irurer, Hatsu, etc), the statement was more general and was comparing them to the conventional top regulars like Sachi, Kaiser, etc.
And as we know, they're notably below this level. The only time they were comparable to a top regular was as an E-class and they were only on par or a bit stronger than the weakest among them (Chang) and that's the bare minimum requirement just to become a Ranker someday.
AA certainly has a lot of talent, but as mentioned in the above blogpost, shinsu qualities are just PUs which allowed him and Rak to reach a comparable level to top regulars " I thought the story needed some events that can be the beginning footstep for Khun and Rak to be on the same level". So, again nothing crazy really. Just to stand on equal foots in front of someone like Maschenny, even these top regulars need to loook like cannon fodders in front of you and even someone like Maschenny isn't even remotely close to be of value to Baam in a fight.
One of the ways they can keep being relevant in a fight is SIU distributing free power ups to them (like the Yeon fish for Khun) but that's bad writing IMO, it seems like it's just forced, just to let them have some kind of role to play as long term, closest friends of the MC.
SIU can also play arround the "native curse" for Rak but that would imply that he'd become drastically stronger than AA which is unlikely (it'd break their long term rivarly).
To become a princess you certainly have to be talented but as we can guess, there're a great variety of gaps among them as well.
Snake Charmer for instance said that if Hansung was a girl, he'd have chosen him to be a princess. While certainly strong and talented, someone like Asencio already stood on a whole another level.
The same goes for Kaiser who was roughtly Endorsi's level (so far weaker than Asencio). In fact, low level and average princesses are even "drastically" weaker than several DDs (Jinsung, Lyborik, White, etc) or just folks who came from other strong lineages (Kallavan, Evankhell, Cha, Dowon, etc). So, Endorsi being selected as a princess doesn't mean much.
For all we know, SIU described her as "warm and human" compared to other princesses, so there is nothing really suggesting she is above the weakest princesses paygrade. It's also an indication of her potential.
Between HF Maschenny and HF Endorsi, there is a massive gap :
-Endorsi with strong teammates (Hansung, Baam) was struggling against monsters far weaker than the big breeders.
-Chung, the weakest big breeder can fodderize any of these monsters.
-Jeok (the bull big breeder) was noted to be much stronger than Chung and Asencio fought on par with him.
-Base Maschenny one shotted Jeok with a casual attack before he knows what happened to him.
-Redan Maschenny is physically several folds above her base self.
As you could see, there're multiple "big gaps" between HF Endorsi and HF Maschenny. I didn't perform meticulous calculations but the number "hundred" that I noted in my previous post makes sens.
Or said in more broader terms, you actually need "countless" Endorsis to stand a chance against Data Mas'.
If you think just learning a shinsu quality made her this much stronger, you can go with it but IMO, unlike Khun and Rak, learning a quality didn't made Endorsi much stronger than what she was and I've got solid facts proving that :
Between the heart shinsu quality and her princess body + body strengthening, it's pretty clear which is harder to deal with.
The hearts cetainly give her more vesatility (the ability to attack from range, strike multiple ennemies at once, etc), but other than that, nothing special really. Even with it, she'd still struggle against the monsters beneath big breeders with almost the same difficulty, despite the support of powerful teammates. It's not enough as a PU to match foes who were already just solidly stronger than her, let alone folks who stood on a whole another level.
Below is the blogpost part we're talking about :
"here aren't really many regulars with the highest level of combat skill other than Baam, Endorsi, and Sachi in team Baam...
In Khun's case, he becomes OP if he uses Enna Core, but that should be regarded as an exception.
So this time, I thought the story needed some events that can be the beginning footstep for Khun and Rak to be on the same level,like having their own abilities."
SIU wasn't comparing Khun and Rak to the regulars who usually ally with him (Laure, Irurer, Hatsu, etc), the statement was more general and was comparing them to the conventional top regulars like Sachi, Kaiser, etc.
And as we know, they're notably below this level. The only time they were comparable to a top regular was as an E-class and they were only on par or a bit stronger than the weakest among them (Chang) and that's the bare minimum requirement just to become a Ranker someday.
AA certainly has a lot of talent, but as mentioned in the above blogpost, shinsu qualities are just PUs which allowed him and Rak to reach a comparable level to top regulars " I thought the story needed some events that can be the beginning footstep for Khun and Rak to be on the same level". So, again nothing crazy really. Just to stand on equal foots in front of someone like Maschenny, even these top regulars need to loook like cannon fodders in front of you and even someone like Maschenny isn't even remotely close to be of value to Baam in a fight.
One of the ways they can keep being relevant in a fight is SIU distributing free power ups to them (like the Yeon fish for Khun) but that's bad writing IMO, it seems like it's just forced, just to let them have some kind of role to play as long term, closest friends of the MC.
SIU can also play arround the "native curse" for Rak but that would imply that he'd become drastically stronger than AA which is unlikely (it'd break their long term rivarly).
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
To become a princess you certainly have to be talented but as we can guess, there're a great variety of gaps among chicks who get chosen as well.
Snake Charmer for instance said that if Hansung was a girl, he'd have chosen him to be a princess. While certainly strong and talented, there was regardless an insanely massive gap between him and someone like Asencio.
The same goes for Kaiser who was roughtly Endorsi's level (so far weaker than Asencio). In fact, some princesses are even "drastically" weaker than several DDs (Jinsung, Lyborik, etc) or just folks who came from other strong lineages (Cha, Dowon, etc). So, Endorsi being selected as a princess doesn't mean much.
For all we know, SIU described her as "warm and human" compared to other princesses, so there is nothing really suggesting she is above the weakest princesses paygrade. It's also an indication of her potential.
The other way is to differentiate those PUs in order to create a scenario in which a regular can surpass or loophole around certain limitations the tower imposes on them. Like if the flame(s) that were gifted to the Yeon had some caveat. Like a tower contract that would stop the flame from being so powerful it consumes the Family member(Yeon) who inherits it. AA wouldn’t have this contract being a Khun, but his ice could check the destruction of himself leading to a native like powerful flame. That in some respects rivals the most powerful Yeon... This is totally hypothetical but you see what I mean. I wouldn’t say it’s superb writing but there are ways to make their powers more powerful without increasing the number of powers they have, if that makes sense.
Between HF Maschenny and HF Endorsi, there is a massive gap :
-Endorsi with strong teammates (Hansung, Baam) was struggling against monsters far weaker than the big breeders.
-Chung, the weakest big breeder can fodderize any of these monsters.
-Jeok (the bull big breeder) was noted to be much stronger than Chung and Asencio fought on par with him.
-Base Maschenny one shotted Jeok with a casual attack before he knows what happened to him.
-Redan Maschenny is physically several folds above her base self.
As you could see, there're multiple "big gaps" between HF Endorsi and HF Maschenny. I didn't perform meticulous calculations but the number "hundred" that I noted in my previous post makes sens.
Or said in more broader terms, you actually need "countless" Endorsis to stand a chance against Data Mas'.
If you think just learning a shinsu quality made her this much stronger, you can go with it but IMO, unlike Khun and Rak, learning a quality didn't made Endorsi much stronger than what she was and I've got solid facts proving that :
Between the heart shinsu quality and her princess body + body strengthening, it's pretty clear which is harder to deal with.
The hearts cetainly give her more vesatility (the ability to attack from range, strike multiple ennemies at once, etc), but other than that, nothing special really. Even with it, she'd still struggle against the monsters beneath big breeders with almost the same difficulty, despite the support of powerful teammates. It's not enough as a PU to match foes who were already just solidly stronger than her, let alone folks who stood on a whole another level.
Below is the blogpost part we're talking about :
"here aren't really many regulars with the highest level of combat skill other than Baam, Endorsi, and Sachi in team Baam...
In Khun's case, he becomes OP if he uses Enna Core, but that should be regarded as an exception.
So this time, I thought the story needed some events that can be the beginning footstep for Khun and Rak to be on the same level,like having their own abilities."
SIU wasn't comparing Khun and Rak to the regulars who usually ally with him (Laure, Irurer, Hatsu, etc), the statement was more general and was comparing them to the conventional top regulars like Sachi, Kaiser, etc.
And as we know, they're notably below this level. The only time they were comparable to a top regular was as an E-class and they were only on par or a bit stronger than the weakest among them (Chang) and that's the bare minimum requirement just to become a Ranker someday.
AA certainly has a lot of talent, but as mentioned in the above blogpost, shinsu qualities are just PUs which allowed him and Rak to reach a comparable level to top regulars " I thought the story needed some events that can be the beginning footstep for Khun and Rak to be on the same level". So, again nothing crazy really. Just to stand on equal foots in front of someone like Maschenny, even these top regulars need to loook like cannon fodders in front of you and even someone like Maschenny isn't even remotely close to be of value to Baam in a fight.
One of the ways they can keep being relevant in a fight is SIU distributing free power ups to them (like the Yeon fish for Khun) but that's bad writing IMO, it seems like it's just forced, just to let them have some kind of role to play as long term, closest friends of the MC.
SIU can also play arround the "native curse" for Rak but that would imply that he'd become drastically stronger than AA which is unlikely (it'd break their long term rivarly).
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
To become a princess you certainly have to be talented but as we can guess, there're a great variety of gaps among them as well.
Snake Charmer for instance said that if Hansung was a girl, he'd have chosen him to be a princess. While certainly strong and talented, someone like Asencio already stood on a whole another level.
The same goes for Kaiser who was roughtly Endorsi's level (so far weaker than Asencio). In fact, low level and average princesses are even "drastically" weaker than several DDs (Jinsung, Lyborik, White, etc) or just folks who came from other strong lineages (Kallavan, Evankhell, Cha, Dowon, etc). So, Endorsi being selected as a princess doesn't mean much.
For all we know, SIU described her as "warm and human" compared to other princesses, so there is nothing really suggesting she is above the weakest princesses paygrade. It's also an indication of her potential.
I think you are underestimating how big a boost acquiring shinsoo attributes was. And how unique androsi's attribute is, considering there is literally nothing in the series it compares or even resembles it.
back at the name hunt station, androsi was basically said to be as strong or stronger than kaiser. Bam only became stronger than kaiser throughout their fight. This might be the earliest point at which bam himself might have surpassed androsi basically (before that bam would have needed shenanigans to overpower her). And even then by the start of the hidden floor androsi was clearly at least good enough to be his team mate.
At the hidden floor later on we saw bam and androsi take on a monster from a test... And they were not doing too well until the snake charmer intervened and dealt with the monster. While making the point the pair coulda have defeated it but it would have taken a long time.
Later on after the gang had acquired shinsoo qualities we see aguero showing up alone for a test yellow had set up. And implied it had increased difficulty compared to other tests. And aguero straight up just wrecked the monster and easily passed the test. And that is aguero who still has only used an ice spear while using an actual spear, not even forming it on his own.
It's true that mascheny got wrecked by data zahard... But mascheny hadn't mastered her shinsoo qualities back then. Otherwise she wouldn't have had to rely on the redan, she would have used internal quality shinsoo control, a superior version which as far as we know doesn't have any real downsides (on a sidenote we can't rule out that acquiring shinsoo attributes doesn't allow you a version of redan which surpasses internal quality shinsoo control, as you could just do a superior version of redan at that point).
Then compare two fights: mascheny vs data zahard and bam vs data zahard in their first encounter. I am not sure if data zahard used shinwonryu against mascheny but he definitely did when he ended his first encounter with bam. Anyways, we saw that mascheny was able to.. scratch data zahard during their fight. And data zahard even drew out lecalicus. data zahard in turn did not draw the needle during his first fight with bam. Meanwhile after training we saw that bam with only the orb (no shinwonryu or revolution) improved to the point where he was able to actually hold his own against zahard.
So... the fact is that androsi actually went through a comparable upgrade to aguero and bam, at least. Probably greater than aguero's due to the fact that she actually did fully learn her shinsoo attribute.
As for her shinsoo attribute not being all that... That's just nonsense. Androsi got what appears to be just short of omnidirectional homing needles. Even white was impressed by this. Even though he is an ancient former high ranker whose entire deal is actual omnidirectional and unpredictable attacks. In contrast kaiser was almost made a princess because she can summon a puppy she can swap places with.
I think you are underestimating how big a boost acquiring shinsoo attributes was. And how unique androsi's attribute is, considering there is literally nothing in the series it compares or even resembles it.
Otherwise she wouldn't have had to rely on the redan, she would have used internal quality shinsoo control, a superior version which as far as we know doesn't have any real downsides
Internal quality control isn't a skills, it's a family of skills that consists of exploding a shinsu quality inside the body. Any technique respecting this aspect is an internal qualtiy control "skill" and as noted by Edahn, Redan is one of them, just a not good one to use due to the side effects (unlike, let's say Jahad's golden Shiwnonryuu application). Plus it's only not good in a FH standards, as we know they're far more talented than any powerhouse in the hidden floor.
Data Maschenny also uses quality-manifested shinsu control skills via her lightening spear and derived techniques, not to mention that the lightening spear is noted as an exceptional shinsu quality even compared to what other FHs owns as qualities.
Meanwhile after training we saw that bam with only the orb (no shinwonryu or revolution) improved to the point where he was able to actually hold his own against zahard.
Revolution isn't just about bringing part of the blue and red Thryssas and making them your own. It elevated all of Baam's "raw" stats to a whole new level.
As matter of fact, the first rice pot session (prior to the dallar show) already made him so much stronger that it was hard to believe (as noted by Buelsar), and this same first rice pot session was stated (by Edahn) to be nothing more than a little taster compared to what a complete revolution is.
Said otherwise, Baam's stats increased multiple massive gaps in which each gap represents a several folds difference.
The other factor which you didn't take into consideration is that Data Jahad himself was just jobbing, nerfing his own shinsu potency to the point it's not even funny. Most of the fight, he was just matching and gradually increasing the intensity proportionally to how Baam responds to his assaults.
In fact, even after Baam used Orb-Shinwonryuu, he was still overpowered by/on the defensive against a Jahad who was still using nothing more than a little glimpse of his power.
What allowed Baam to survive and slip the win against Data Jahad was mainly revolution, mainly crediting that for Orb mastery is wrong.
back at the name hunt station, androsi was basically said to be as strong or stronger than kaiser. Bam only became stronger than kaiser throughout their fight. This might be the earliest point at which bam himself might have surpassed androsi basically (before that bam would have needed shenanigans to overpower her). And even then by the start of the hidden floor androsi was clearly at least good enough to be his team mate.
Yeah certainly, the Dallar shown and name hunt station of Baam are only comparable to Endorsi (not couting the souls) and she was still not far weaker than him at the beginning of the hidden floor arc.
But as noted above, the gap became immensely large once Baam performed revolution. As such, trying to make comparison, be it direct or not, between Endorsi and post-revolution Baam, even in base, doesn't make sens.
Later on after the gang had acquired shinsoo qualities we see aguero showing up alone for a test yellow had set up. And implied it had increased difficulty compared to other tests
I don't see how is that relevant. First, AA fought another monster, not the same one that Baam and Endorsi faced. Second, it was canonically shown that Endorsi's shinsu quality < her physical might (ie: panels in her fight with White) which implies that even after acquiring her quality, she would've still the exact same difficulty against this villain. Third, Edahn's qualities (including the ice spear) were noted to be exceptional among the FHs meanwhile Endorsi's quality was never portrayed to be this strong and its feats are laughable (Until now, I don't know why you ignore this fact).
The point is that you're trying hard to make an equivalence between rarity and strength (which is wrong) despite the feats going against it.
As for Khun, even after learning his quality, he was still arround or a bit superior (at most) to base Baam with no Thorn, no Shinwonryuu, no hidden entity, nor anything as noted by SIU :
"I had some thoughts about the Khun’s ice spear. Because it does not fit the balance if Khun can suppress Viole as soon as he manifests his ice spear ability
So I thought maybe it would be better if I can make it more like Khun, playing with Viole using his techniques". Source
This alone put some kind of hierarchy and difference in power between the monster that Khun faced and the one which confronted Baam and Endorsi.
It wasn't implied, the big breeder was simply wondering about Khun's strange over-confidence, so he made a little provocation by asking him what would he do if he actually increases the difficulty, but actually he didn't.
I just showed on panel that Endorsi's physical strikes + body strengthening are > her shinsu quality.
Internal quality control isn't a skills, it's a family of skills that consists of exploding a shinsu quality inside the body. Any technique respecting this aspect is an internal qualtiy control "skill" and as noted by Edahn, Redan is one of them, just a not good one to use due to the side effects (unlike, let's say Jahad's golden Shiwnonryuu application). Plus it's only not good in a FH standards, as we know they're far more talented than any powerhouse in the hidden floor.
Data Maschenny also uses quality-manifested shinsu control skills via her lightening spear and derived techniques, not to mention that the lightening spear is noted as an exceptional shinsu quality even compared to what other FHs owns as qualities.
Revolution isn't just about bringing part of the blue and red Thryssas and making them your own. It elevated all of Baam's "raw" stats to a whole new level.
As matter of fact, the first rice pot session (prior to the dallar show) already made him so much stronger that it was hard to believe (as noted by Buelsar), and this same first rice pot session was stated (by Edahn) to be nothing more than a little taster compared to what a complete revolution is.
Said otherwise, Baam's stats increased multiple massive gaps in which each gap represents a several folds difference.
The other factor which you didn't take into consideration is that Data Jahad himself was just jobbing, nerfing his own shinsu potency to the point it's not even funny. Most of the fight, he was just matching and gradually increasing the intensity proportionally to how Baam responds to his assaults.
In fact, even after Baam used Orb-Shinwonryuu, he was still overpowered by/on the defensive against a Jahad who was still using nothing more than a little glimpse of his power.
What allowed Baam to survive and slip the win against Data Jahad was mainly revolution, mainly crediting that for Orb mastery is wrong.
Yeah certainly, the Dallar shown and name hunt station of Baam are only comparable to Endorsi (not couting the souls) and she was still not far weaker than him at the beginning of the hidden floor arc.
But as noted above, the gap became immensely large once Baam performed revolution. As such, trying to make comparison, be it direct or not, between Endorsi and post-revolution Baam, even in base, doesn't make sens.
I don't see how is that relevant. First, AA fought another monster, not the same one that Baam and Endorsi faced. Second, it was canonically shown that Endorsi's shinsu quality < her physical might (ie: panels in her fight with White) which implies that even after acquiring her quality, she would've still the exact same difficulty against this villain. Third, Edahn's qualities (including the ice spear) were noted to be exceptional among the FHs meanwhile Endorsi's quality was never portrayed to be this strong and its feats are laughable (Until now, I don't know why you ignore this fact).
The point is that you're trying hard to make an equivalence between rarity and strength (which is wrong) despite the feats going against it.
As for Khun, even after learning his quality, he was still arround or a bit superior (at most) to base Baam with no Thorn, no Shinwonryuu, no hidden entity, nor anything as noted by SIU :
"I had some thoughts about the Khun’s ice spear. Because it does not fit the balance if Khun can suppress Viole as soon as he manifests his ice spear ability
So I thought maybe it would be better if I can make it more like Khun, playing with Viole using his techniques". Source
This alone put some kind of hierarchy and difference in power between the monster that Khun faced and the one which confronted Baam and Endorsi.
It wasn't implied, the big breeder was simply wondering about Khun's strange over-confidence, so he made a little provocation by asking him what would he do if he actually increases the difficulty, but actually he didn't.
The panels don't prove that her strength plus reinforcement are greater than her shinsoo boost. The kick is just an attack that connected, nothing else.
Shinsoo attributes are specific shapes and properties people's shinsoo have. It's not just any shape or any technique. It's extremely likely that data mascheny (and current ran) don't have that just yet. Neither have shown spears in the same way as the hidden floor gang did.
Redan was specifically said to be inferior to internal quality shinsoo control in general. Due to all the drawbacks and just being weaker than it. Eduan displayed his internal quality shinsoo control and specifically shows it being stronger and having less drawbacks. That said, I don't rule out there being a version of redan that can be boosted via mastering your shinsoo attributes...
The point of revolution is to bring whatever power bam has inside him. Bam increasing his overall capacity is a consequence of bringing out his inner power, but not necessarily the point of revolution. It depends on what is inside bam.
Zahard didn't go all out from the get go against bam but... Neither did he against mascheny. Orb bam definitely did substantially better than mascheny, by quite the margin at that. Zahard definitely took the fight seriously by the time bam activated his revolution and shinwonryu though.
The difference is that at that point aguero just used his ice spear for the very first time... And with a medium at that. By that time androsi had already fully learned her own quality and bam was already capable of using his.
There is no indication that big breeder didn't increase the difficulty. And given the nature of the fight, it makes more sense that the test would have been much harder than anything he would have faced otherwise.
The panels don't prove that her strength plus reinforcement are greater than her shinsoo boost. The kick is just an attack that connected, nothing else.
White intercepted both with his sword, it's just that Endorsi's physical might was oughtright stronger than her shinsu quality. Hence's White was repeled against her kick when he could fend off her quality.
Shinsoo attributes are specific shapes and properties people's shinsoo have. It's not just any shape or any technique. It's extremely likely that data mascheny (and current ran) don't have that just yet. Neither have shown spears in the same way as the hidden floor gang did.
Maschennies (Maschenny hersefl and Ran) are known for their lightening spears, other can try to learn it but never come close to them in terms of effectivness and proficency. So, it's pretty clear that lightening spear is one of Maschenny's (and Ran's) qualities.
The fact that the quality concept wasn't introduced yet when the lightening spear and Redan were displayed doesn't change this fact. Especially when Edahn deemed Redan as an internal quality control skill.
Also, all of Ran and Maschenny's named skills are prefixed by "Maschenny style lightening spear technique" or something along the lines, if it's not the lightening spear, then I don't know what it is.
That's the same as saying, let's say : Rapid fire shinsu cannon < Shinsu control.
How can you say that Redan is < internal quality control when it's an internal quality control skill itself ?
Just like Edahn, Ran and Maschenny showed multiple "named" external quality control skills, multiple internal quality shinsoo skills exist (including Redan), how effective Redan is and what side-effects it may cause doesn't change this fact.
Btw, Edahn also noted that Redan is "effective", so just within the duration of its usage, it's comparable to a good internal quality shinsoo skill.
The point of revolution is finding your true self and fighting as such, thus increasing your raw stats to a whole new level. Aabsorption or rather devoring things is just one of Baam's characteristics which was amped as a result.
Besides, I already noted in my previous post how Baam's stats became drastically higher just after the first rice pot session and I'll add another fact, Data Jahad explictly said that Baam's definitely changed, the amateurish feeling that he initially had desappeared and the "drastic" increase in speed was due to revolution, which further proves my point.
Also, as I said earlier, since the first rice pot was already a massive power up for Baam, the complete revolution he performed with Edahn's help implies that he made multiple massive jumps compared to his former stats.
Zahard didn't go all out from the get go against bam but... Neither did he against mascheny. Orb bam definitely did substantially better than mascheny, by quite the margin at that. Zahard definitely took the fight seriously by the time bam activated his revolution and shinwonryu though.
Both Baam with just the Thorn and Maschenny were drastically below Data Jahad, so we can't tell how much he held back against her either. But again, as I said this comparasion is irrelevant in our context since post-revolution Baam in "base", with no multiplier, stands on a whole another level compared to how he was prior to completing revolution.
The difference is that at that point aguero just used his ice spear for the very first time... And with a medium at that. By that time androsi had already fully learned her own quality and bam was already capable of using his.
He still uses the ice spear with a medium even now, SIU already noted that the real ice spear is yet to be shown...
And again, Endorsi's quality just don't compare to Khun's or Rak's. This training was specifically made for them to reach a comparable level to hers after all.
There is no indication that big breeder didn't increase the difficulty. And given the nature of the fight, it makes more sense that the test would have been much harder than anything he would have faced otherwise.
And there is no indication that he did increase the difficult but we know that Khun with the ice spear shouldn't be much stronger than Data Viole, which implies that Yellow didn't inrease the difficulty. Otherwise, it would contradict what SIU said in the blogpost where he compared Khun to Data Viole.
Putting Data Maschenny above the Hidden Floor version of Baam is kinda LOL, though. Baam fought Data Zahard to a draw, and Maschenny got stomped by him.
data Mascheny is extremely powerful by d class regular standards though I am skeptical of putting her ahead of any one character post shinsoo attributes. specially androsi. I'd actually put white ahead of data mascheny. I would maintain he is just stronger than any non irregular d class.
I am actually not very clear on who does or doesn't enter the hidden floor. I was under the impression that in some cases at least people just save their data and leave. Add to that bam and co, iirc, needed a special key to actually enter the floor.
data Mascheny is extremely powerful by d class regular standards though I am skeptical of putting her ahead of any one character post shinsoo attributes. specially androsi. I'd actually put white ahead of data mascheny. I would maintain he is just stronger than any non irregular d class.
He was up against post shinsoo attribute androsi, beta, miseng (always useful to have an observer) and a guide. It was an insanely unfavorable scenario for white.
For internal shinsoo quality i think it relally depend on the one who is using it .
In my opinion it wad a decent boost to Androssi but a unique boost and a priceless one for Rak and AA .
Why ? Androssi is already a beast when it come to physical strength , she can likely beat all other regular of her category outside of Vagarav , and the princess and Elaine . Just remember how Anak was beating everyone because of her physical strength .
She got her shinsoo affinity wich made her stronger overall . But was not as much as a boost as AA and Rak ? Because when it come to fire power she already that bazooka that Yuri gave her , each of her punch are tremendously powerful , like .
Why Miseng , AA , and Rak got way stronger because they were weak before and had no skill that they were competent in . While Androssi is naturally gifted everywhere .
Another factor , is that you guys forget that those guy were bad at using shinsoo , and they had no other way of being powerful , while Androssi did she was already a physical beast , so when they got that boost they becale way stronger but fir Androssi it didn't make her way stronger .
Another example that explain how good is a shinsoo quality for a jahad princess . For example we have Yuri jahad , she is both string physically and with her shinsoo , her shinsoo quality seem stronger than her physical strength but not way stronger . For example she punched Karaka and it wasn't even her full strength , and after that she was going all out but still didn't injure him , while her shinsoo quality did it , but saying that her shinsoo quality if we assume it is is way stringer than her lhysical strength , given that Karaka was able to stop her because of her simple style of figting and because a terrible power is concentrated in a punch but with her affinity the power is spread and is AOE attack , so it more difficult to deal with .
Actually her being unable to defeat White is already a testament of it , White in my opinion would tie or be beaten by the LPB princess .
Maybe people underestimate how strong jahad princess physic are , basically outside of White , kaiser , maria and the other princess , Vagarav , i see no one injured Androssi , even if they go at full strength . And they body can destroy most attack .
Vagarav is underestimated , people say he will ve defeated by AA and Rak , that is false , we know he is basically unvulnerable and Androssi needed to smash through the ground from 1000 meter and still was not defeated . The guy also progressed .
For AA and Rak even injuring him would be a hassle .
AA and Rak became way stronger but we shouldn't forget that they were weak before that , actually they were average compare to basic regular , but still fodder compared to Ran .
For Baam it made way stronger he was basically figting with regular tool wich is basically a swordmen expert figting with a little knife .
I think the top Regulars after Baam (Androssi, White, Vargav) in general are underestimated because Baam's feats make them look like ants and they don't get long fight scenes. As kkck said White was facing Androssi supported by Miseng and Hwa Ryun. Vargav also is very strong but he only challenges Baam. Data Maschenny is overrated IMO.
I don't think she is definitely stronger than the three that I mentioned. I think I said this already but a fight against her and White wouldn't be very different from Ran VS Inieta(they are pretty much better versions of both). Redan and Super Redan are great but they have a time limit. Against Androssi she'd have to deal with Bong Bong plus her Attribute as well. Vargarv is the one who is the most disadvantged matchup wise against her.
