Just use a little foresight to how a EF Mard vs DF Natsu would pan out. Clearly DF Natsu is superior in physical stats and offense, but he just couldn't keep going for long. For that 10 seconds of DF, Natsu was superior.
Sure Gray is going to need power, but just look at the size of his ice attacks, how much MP would be needed? Not saying that size is everything, it isn't, but you don't get the overwhelming sense that Gray's DeS arrow was an MP sapping attack - the guy performed this in an exhausted state. I wouldn't be hanging my hat on Gray's DeS moves having heaps of MP on it, I would hang my hat on them being specifically designed to deal damage to demons, like kryptonite for superman. When you consider the quality of DeS magic and how effective it is against demons, you can see this is the most important aspect of Gray's DeS spell - not MP. So I disagree that Mard was overpowered by Gray. The anti-demon magic cut him.
As for Erza we can agree to disagree. I don't think she is on par with DF Natsu (Tartarus), she'd be dominated in the exchanges and would take more damage than Mard did.
I think you misunderstood my post but that was my mistake. Never would I think Gray overpowers Mard Geer [Unless we're talking Alvarez Arc]. I made an error. I simply meant that although he can't beat Mard Geer, he has the capability to be near his level or his DeS magic would do absolutely nothing to Mard Geer. Kinda like how Natsu has no effect on a dragon. However, in saying that Gray would lose to Mard Geer, I don't think I'd be wrong in saying Natsu would lose too. He simply can't 1v1 Mard Geer even in DF mode overall.
The argument you're using for Erza is simply that she's had one year to train and she fought Ajeel, which is a redundant speculative argument since what we're trying to find out is Ajeel's strength and we don't know exactly if she got stronger during that year. There's nothing that indicates that Current Erza could be that much stronger than Tartaros Erza, so I'd rather leave Current Erza just slightly above Tartaros Erza, which doesn't really tell us muc about Ajeel. However, I don't think Ajeel has feats that how that he's 2,5 times stronger than Kyouka.
Okay, fair enough. I can't dispute because we are totally on opposite sides. I can't prove that Current Erza is about 2x to 2.5x stronger but you can't prove that she only got slightly stronger either. So we'll just stick with our beliefs. Ajeel's feats would definitely be 2.5x stronger in my eyes. Think of it like this. Ajeel vs. 2 Kyōka's. I guess to put it more into perspective, Ajeel vs. 2 Erza's without Jupiter Cannon. I think we can agree that 1 Erza outright lost to Ajeel.
Current Gray is basically Tartaros Gray until he gets better feats. IM: Silver was something Gray did casually with a tornado in Tartaros, so I don't see why Mard wouldn't be able to destroy the Sand Golem.
Sand World has a range of about 5 to 7 km. Being a hypersonic character, Mard can escape from that in just a matter of seconds.
Due to Etherious Mard's aerial nature, Sands of Death will probably not even reach Mard.
See, the problem with our argument is that everything is speculative ranging from Erza to Gray to even Ajeel's max power. You say Gray has stayed the same since Tartaros unless proven otherwise because we haven't seen ANY of Gray's power except that one spell. I have reason to believe that Gray improved solely based on Makarov's surprised expression. I can't put a number on the diameter or radius of Sand World but Mard Geer escaping it wouldn't help him as he still can't see Ajeel from behind the dust storm.
This is about now. I can't speculate about what Erza will do in 10 chapters, I have to judge her current feats and her current feats put her well below Tartaros Mard.
Base Natsu's City Level Roars? Yeah, possibly. Size doesn't really matter. I can see Erza in her Adamantine Armor or Flame Empress Armor to suppress it. Even if she can't, she will most likely dodge it due to her fast nature. Roars are typically a straight line, so if Erza knows she can't handle or tank it, I don't see what would stop her from avoiding it.
Gray/Natsu < Mard Geer? Yes. Gray and Natsu < Mard Geer? No. If you say Gray or Natsu, they lose. But Gray and Natsu wins which is canon. As for Erza, let's wait it out.
Well, based on logic, the magic power of the user is proportional to their abilities' strength. This makes sense. Not just in Fairy Tail but in real life. The more muscles a person has, the stronger his punches unless the person forcefully weakens it. I agree that Tartaros DF Natsu is stronger than Erza. But by how much? If she is stronger than him without DF, then that means when he is in Dragon Force, she can't be miles away. DeS Gray was comparable to DF Natsu in Tartaros makes senes that Erza also similar to Gray. Note that I said DeS Gray and DF Natsu are similar in Tartaros, not Alvarez. It looks like Alvarez Natsu is leagues above Gray when he is full power but that is pure speculation as we haven't seen Gray yet.
All these numbers are either pure speculation or calculated by users of other forums that shouldn't be taken as a fact. Unless they can show me how they calculated it and give me all their work, some of it has errors in it. Remember that even minimal errors in calculation can lead to a very incorrect answer. Also, because Hiro Mashima never approved of any of this, you can see that a lot of them are doubted by others because they outright "assumed" some things which also leads to inaccuracy.
Yes, I have speculation in my posts. But isn't comparing two characters from different timeskips also speculation as none of this has ever happened? Yes. These posts that say Mard Geer can match Ajeel because of CSK, Natsu, Gray, and Erza are also speculating.
By the way, my statement, As a character's grows stronger, so does their magic, is not speculation. That is a fact and I don't know why it is hard to understand. Just use real life applications and you'll get it. As your muscles grow, so does the power of your kicks + punches. Comparing how Erza fought Kyōka and Ajeel is not speculation either. These are accurately depicted feats that are canon which show Erza's improvement in power.
I just have queries on the link between an attack affecting two characters with very different defensive strategies in the same way without any real link between the two to use as basis for speculation, battle threads are obviously speculation but we compare things that can be quantified( in a way).
I know that Erza is probably much stronger but as of now she has not shown anything that puts her above Mard Geer who fought sting, Rogue, Natsu ( lfd and DF iirc)and Gray (who has an advantage over him)with barely any time to recover
I know what hax, durability, and DC [From the Previous Posts] are but I was saying that they were overly used as we can't really put a value for each of them. Thanks for the meaning of HS. I assumed it was High Speed based on the context you used but I knew something was odd about it.
I don't see how you can tell what is really Town Level and City Level. Looking at the panels I don't see how we can label an attack with Kilotonnes or Megatonnes unless you are leagues above me in observation and calculation.
Yeah, the Gray's Ice Make: Silver froze the Sand Golem which you can say had an effect on it but I was talking about destruction wise like if the ice pierced its body. So that means that it had a lot of durability. The only problem I have with something being just frozen is that it does not kill the enemy unless Gray smashes it or something. We have seen opponents frozen but live like Deliora even though you can say he was dying, as well as the giants from Sun Village. Anyways, you say Mard Geer is faster in speed but I think Ajeel can also match him with Sand Golem as we saw it catching up to the Magic Vehicle powered by Erza's magic whom we should not take lightly. Sand World may not be an offensive technique but it is useful in counter-attacking Mard Geer from behind as seen with Erza. I would classify it as close to City Level but if you want it Town Level then so be it. Sands of Death seemed pretty strong but you're right that Laxus dispersed it; therefore, it is only hype. At the same time, Laxus is so strong at this point that he can probably slam Mard Geer.
Because you scaled Mard Geer to CSK in Tartaros Arc, I have no idea how strong CSK is in Alvarez so I'm going to take your word and compare Alvarez Erza to Tartaros CSK. Erza stomping Tartaros CSK was based on the fact that Erza has gotten significantly stronger and can take on Mard Geer in my book, who you keep scaling to CSK. CSK is overrated... He didn't surprise me even since the beginning. His feat of smashing through Plutogrim really doesn't tell anything of his power except that he is gigantic.
I agree that Zero overwhelmed DF Natsu and that he can defeat Erza but this was all Pre-Timeskip so note that it should be Pre-Timeskip Erza. Current Alvarez Erza is on a whole different level now and would easily kill him.
Had we seen Ajeel in the same timeframe as Mard Geer and CSK, I would agree that they would be way stronger than Ajeel had he not been able to perform such feats compared to them while showing that he is clearly below them in power. But that didn't happen, so I still don't buy it. I would say Erza at maximum power could rival Base Natsu but that is how I see it. We just won't agree. I believe Erza and Natsu were similar in power during the Tartaros Arc, so I can't imagine Natsu on a totally different level than Erza now unless he is in Dragon Force, Flame Dragon King Mode, or E.N.D.
I don't deny that being stronger does not necessarily mean that they will win the battle but there is a certain limit in which you just can't beat your opponent like Acnologia. Of course, when two power levels are similar, the outcome depends on strategies/tactics, intel/intelligence, and other conditions like environment/terrain, weather, restrictions, etc. Silver winning against Mard Geer would be an overstatement. I'm not sure that Silver can even take on Base Mard Geer let alone Etherious Mard Geer.
Tartaros Natsu and Gray are as strong as Mard Geer because they defeated him. No Nakama Power or PoF was involved so it was fair and square. But this is not Base Natsu and Gray. This is DF Natsu and DeS Gray both at full powre so Mard Geer is still strong. But Ajeel is still on a whole different level.
Sting and Rogue are shown to have low durability which is why I said Jupiter Cannon would destroy them. In GMG, they fared against Natsu and Gajeel well when they were the attacking side. You can clearly see that they went downhill fast after Natsu and Gajeel went on the offensive. Especially when Natsu used his finishing attack that knocked out both Sting and Rogue in one-hit. That was disappointing. Overall, the twin dragons are exceptional when it comes to attack power and magic capacity but they lack defense.
Tartaros Erza is different from Current Erza by using logic from how she fared against Kyōka compared to Ajeel. Nakagami Starlight is stronger than DF Natsu's strongest attack because this was DF Natsu in Tartaros compared to Alvarez Erza who should be significantly stronger at this point or she is useless against a Spriggan. This is why I don't like to compare specific abilities of characters. How can you really tell who is faster? They have different feats from different battles. Either way, Erza is faster than Gray and Natsu. So Mard Geer isn't that fast. Ajeel is faster than Erza. Therefore, Ajeel can match Mard Geer except his flying capability which can be countered in different ways.
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Really? From what I saw in the comments, they mess up a lot. If you understand it, please explain it to me. I have doubts about their how they came up with their calculations let alone their methods. If you want to post how they calculated the energy in Acnologia's Roar and Motherglare's Roar, I will look at it. Your statement that Mard Geer can only be defeated by Ice Devil Slayer Magic is false. I have explained this many times but I'll say it again. Slayer Magic only gives the user a better chance of affecting the target. In other words, it is more like a "boost" that is "super effective". Basically, anybody who can defeat Mard Geer is relatively the same power as him because in order for slayer magic to work, you need to be really close to the power of your opponent. This is shown in the Eclipse Arc like you mentioned, when dragon slayers really did no damage to dragons because the raw power of the dragons are way higher than the dragon slayers. Meanwhile, demons are weaker. Therefore, we saw Fairy Tail mages except Gray defeating the 9 Demon Gates who are are also demons without having an Devil Slaying Magic.
I didn't say Only Des Magic could defeat Mard Geer.In Tartaros only Des and DF Natsu had effect on Mard.Even a Dragon can be defeated without Dragon Slayer Magic if the opponent is stronger than him.
I just have queries on the link between an attack affecting two characters with very different defensive strategies in the same way without any real link between the two to use as basis for speculation, battle threads are obviously speculation but we compare things that can be quantified( in a way).
I know that Erza is probably much stronger but as of now she has not shown anything that puts her above Mard Geer who fought sting, Rogue, Natsu ( lfd and DF iirc)and Gray (who has an advantage over him)with barely any time to recover
I don't know what you mean by comparing things that can be quantified in a way... Nothing can be quantified in a manga with only one exception which I will explain later. For now, please explain yourself. How would you quantify comparisons in Fairy Tail? Using what method and work? If you can put a value on the difference between the amount of energy in Erza's Nakagami Starlight and Natsu's Crimson Lotus of the Phoenix Blade, please do so.
There is only one way to quantify magical power in Fairy Tail. That is through Hiro Mashima when he introduced the Magic Power Finder [MPF]. This is literally the only way things can be quantified in this manga. Anything else is nonsense. Don't fall into the trap with those guys who calculate it on Naruto Forums and stuff. They incorporate assumptions, guesses, and have questionable methods as to how they worked the problems. My point is that everything is qualitative. Therefore, I see nothing wrong with comparing feats between 2 different characters when the stats of one is definitely lower or higher than the other.
I didn't say Only Des Magic could defeat Mard Geer.In Tartaros only Des and DF Natsu had effect on Mard.Even a Dragon can be defeated without Dragon Slayer Magic if the opponent is stronger than him.
I know you didn't exactly say that only DeS magic could defeat Mard Geer but you implied it when you said that they could only win with iDeS Magic and their combined efforts as if without it, they'd lose. I'm not saying you were wrong. I agree with you on this post.
Someone as powerful DF Natsu can defeat Mard Geer without DeS. But someone of Tartarus Gray's level (below base Tartarus Natsu) can arguably oneshot Mard Geer with DeS. So really DeS gave the pair their only chance of winning, particularly if you factor in Momento Mori.
Someone as powerful DF Natsu can defeat Mard Geer without DeS. But someone of Tartarus Gray's level (below base Tartarus Natsu) can arguably oneshot Mard Geer with DeS. So really DeS gave the pair their only chance of winning, particularly if you factor in Momento Mori.
Well, because we don't have the feats to prove it, I can't say that Natsu and Gray would outright lose to Mard Geer nor would they win. We don't even know if Gray and Natsu can survive Momento Mori which I believe they would have been able to with the cost of being seriously injured afterwards. Again, I have no proof. Momento Mori could kill them but that was mostly hype. Not saying it can't happen. Considering how fast Gray's attack killed Mard Geer, I think they would still be able to destroy him but just with more time, MP, injuries, etc.
It is pointless to debate this anyways. Most people will disagree but then everyone usually has differences anyways. Until it happens, it remains to be an opinion and not a fact.
Well, because we don't have the feats to prove it, I can't say that Natsu and Gray would outright lose to Mard Geer nor would they win. We don't even know if Gray and Natsu can survive Momento Mori which I believe they would have been able to with the cost of being seriously injured afterwards. Again, I have no proof. Momento Mori could kill them but that was mostly hype. Not saying it can't happen. Considering how fast Gray's attack killed Mard Geer, I think they would still be able to destroy him but just with more time, MP, injuries, etc.
Idk Mard fought Natsu, Sting and Rogue all at once, even took an LFD hit to the head, and brushed it all off with pretty much no damage - these are feats. It is kind of preposterous to me that Gray (w/o DeS) can just roll in there and now give them a winning chance. I mean Gray isn't Gildarts level or close. Nor is Gray > Sting+Rogue. To me this is pretty obvious.
It is pointless to debate this anyways. Most people will disagree but then everyone usually has differences anyways. Until it happens, it remains to be an opinion and not a fact.
Well I don't see it as pointless, otherwise there really wouldn't be any discussion on these matters. Agreeing/disagreeing doesn't mean that a discussion can't yield anything. This is a way we can learn, or talk about things we find interesting. Of course you can say 'until it happens', but that doesn't mean you have to ignore any logic that might be a theory as to why something happened.
Idk Mard fought Natsu, Sting and Rogue all at once, even took an LFD hit to the head, and brushed it all off with pretty much no damage - these are feats. It is kind of preposterous to me that Gray (w/o DeS) can just roll in there and now give them a winning chance. I mean Gray isn't Gildarts level or close. Nor is Gray > Sting+Rogue. To me this is pretty obvious.
Well I don't see it as pointless, otherwise there really wouldn't be any discussion on these matters. Agreeing/disagreeing doesn't mean that a discussion can't yield anything. This is a way we can learn, or talk about things we find interesting. Of course you can say 'until it happens', but that doesn't mean you have to ignore any logic that might be a theory as to why something happened.
Jura failed to do anything against Dragons in GMG.Was Jura Weaker than Sting.No.Jura failed to leave a scratch on Dragons in GMG.Sting Could.Slayer advantage.I believe Current Natsu will be able to solo Mard Geer even "One Shot" him.
Idk Mard fought Natsu, Sting and Rogue all at once, even took an LFD hit to the head, and brushed it all off with pretty much no damage - these are feats. It is kind of preposterous to me that Gray (w/o DeS) can just roll in there and now give them a winning chance. I mean Gray isn't Gildarts level or close. Nor is Gray > Sting+Rogue. To me this is pretty obvious.
Well I don't see it as pointless, otherwise there really wouldn't be any discussion on these matters. Agreeing/disagreeing doesn't mean that a discussion can't yield anything. This is a way we can learn, or talk about things we find interesting. Of course you can say 'until it happens', but that doesn't mean you have to ignore any logic that might be a theory as to why something happened.
Well, since this is Mard Geer vs. Ajeel Thread, I don't want to go off-topic; therefore, you can have the last word. I will just say that worst comes to worst, Gray can use Iced Shell and they'd still win, although, I think Natsu and Gray would still be able to beat Mard Geer. How? Well like I said, since it didn't happen, it is pointless to speculate but I could see a full power Natsu and Gray doing a Unison Raid, push comes to shove, as that battle could decide the fate of Fairy Tail. In my eyes, nobody else in Tartaros Arc would be able to defeat Mard Geer except Gray and Natsu.
By the way, Gray > Sting and Rogue. The twin dragon slayers were hyped too much. Yes, they aren't weak but they are no where near the level of Fairy Tail's strongest mages like Natsu, Erza, Mirajane, Gray, Gajeel, Laxus, Makarov, etc.
Idk Mard fought Natsu, Sting and Rogue all at once, even took an LFD hit to the head, and brushed it all off with pretty much no damage - these are feats. It is kind of preposterous to me that Gray (w/o DeS) can just roll in there and now give them a winning chance. I mean Gray isn't Gildarts level or close. Nor is Gray > Sting+Rogue. To me this is pretty obvious.
I agree 100%, without DeS even the 4(Natsu, Sting, Rogue and Gray) of them would have lost, Mard was too strong for FT at that point, LFD hits made Hades cry out in pain and he was probably in the top 4-5 mages in the continent but the same hits were nothing to Mard he even smiled at a LFD hit. Without Gray and his DeS Mard would have beat them all while chilling on his chair
I agree 100%, without DeS even the 4(Natsu, Sting, Rogue and Gray) of them would have lost, Mard was too strong for FT at that point, LFD hits made Hades cry out in pain and he was probably in the top 4-5 mages in the continent but the same hits were nothing to Mard he even smiled at a LFD hit. Without Gray and his DeS Mard would have beat them all while chilling on his chair
I'll also let you have the last word on this because it is really derailing but I'm talking about DF Natsu. I clearly said both Gray and Natsu at full power... I don't know why you and Brandish bring up LFD Natsu. Tartaros LFD Natsu is weak... Probably comparable to Erza. Either way, I still stick with my opinion. Nobody can counter me on Iced Shell let alone the possibility of a future Unison Raid.
Mard geer mid diff if we go by feat this fuckin dude just stomp 3 dragon slayer without being serious, toys with the csk and for me csk is stronger than ajeel, only des gray and df natsu damaged him lol
I'll also let you have the last word on this because it is really derailing but I'm talking about DF Natsu. I clearly said both Gray and Natsu at full power... I don't know why you and Brandish being up LFD Natsu. Tartaros LFD Natsu is weak... Probably comparable to Erza. Either way, I still stick with my opinion. Nobody can counter me on Iced Shell let alone the possibility of a future Unison Raid.
The thing I hate bringing DF Natsu into anything because he is too broken, but even so he overwhelmed Mard but the damage he delt wasnt to an extent that we would think Natsu would win, Mard just brushed it off and was blindsided by Gray. But just LFD Natsu, full power Gray and DF Twin Dragons they would have lost Mard was just too powerful.
There is no doubt in my mind he would beat Ajeel because of how broken he was, it was like he didn't have limits
I'll also let you have the last word on this because it is really derailing but I'm talking about DF Natsu. I clearly said both Gray and Natsu at full power... I don't know why you and Brandish bring up LFD Natsu. Tartaros LFD Natsu is weak... Probably comparable to Erza. Either way, I still stick with my opinion. Nobody can counter me on Iced Shell let alone the possibility of a future Unison Raid.
The thing I hate bringing DF Natsu into anything because he is too broken, but even so he overwhelmed Mard but the damage he delt wasnt to an extent that we would think Natsu would win, Mard just brushed it off and was blindsided by Gray. But just LFD Natsu, full power Gray and DF Twin Dragons they would have lost Mard was just too powerful.
There is no doubt in my mind he would beat Ajeel because of how broken he was, it was like he didn't have limits
It was because of Ice Devil slayer Magic.DF Natsu had huge effects on Mard Geer still it was not effective at the end as he ran out of energy.DF Natsu was on the City Buster Level and Stronger than Ice Des gray but still couldn't gray could with his Ice Des Magic.
Well, since this is Mard Geer vs. Ajeel Thread, I don't want to go off-topic; therefore, you can have the last word. I will just say that worst comes to worst, Gray can use Iced Shell and they'd still win, although, I think Natsu and Gray would still be able to beat Mard Geer. How? Well like I said, since it didn't happen, it is pointless to speculate but I could see a full power Natsu and Gray doing a Unison Raid, push comes to shove, as that battle could decide the fate of Fairy Tail. In my eyes, nobody else in Tartaros Arc would be able to defeat Mard Geer except Gray and Natsu.
By the way, Gray > Sting and Rogue. The twin dragon slayers were hyped too much. Yes, they aren't weak but they are no where near the level of Fairy Tail's strongest mages like Natsu, Erza, Mirajane, Gray, Gajeel, Laxus, Makarov, etc.
I'll also let you have the last word on this because it is really derailing but I'm talking about DF Natsu. I clearly said both Gray and Natsu at full power... I don't know why you and Brandish bring up LFD Natsu. Tartaros LFD Natsu is weak... Probably comparable to Erza. Either way, I still stick with my opinion. Nobody can counter me on Iced Shell let alone the possibility of a future Unison Raid.
- I'll let Gray > Sting+Rogue slide. I don't rate Gray that high. He is not Natsu level to me.
- Iced shell: Well I left this out for 2 reasons. 1) It kills Gray (turns his life to ice). And 2) The strongest demon it's worked on is Deliora - is this demon stronger than Mard Geer king of Hades? I didn't want to bring this is because basically the feat is Deliora level minimum, but you could hype it as high as you want after that. Even to Acnologia if you're being so bold. Whose to say Mard Geer can't break from it like he did Galaxia Blade? I never see spells as infallible or infinite, the only magic that get's this is Fairy Heart.
- A full power Unison raid... is it realistic to think they can do it? Fire and Ice are opposites according to Silver, and Wahl (both in different ways which is weird). Even if we grant them complete unison, how powerful are unison raids? We saw Mard Geer absorb one (from Rogue and Sting). Are they going to suddenly transform a Natsu level attack into something above DF Natsu? I can't remember a single raid getting that much inflation. Raid's definitely increase power output, just not a massive+ one.
- LFD is brought up because the power output is Natsu's highest. That means this above Gray's offense (w/o DeS for the sake of argument). It is likely on par or better than Erza's offense at that arc. Mard took LFD Firing Hammer to the back of the head without any effect. This is like Gildarts taking on a Secret art at point blank and not even being fazed. Gildarts would definitely beath Gray and Natsu, just like Mard would.
- Only persons who can actually kill Mard Geer is Silver and Gray, using IDeS. DF Natsu is a chance.
Jura failed to do anything against Dragons in GMG.Was Jura Weaker than Sting.No.Jura failed to leave a scratch on Dragons in GMG.Sting Could.Slayer advantage.I believe Current Natsu will be able to solo Mard Geer even "One Shot" him.
Yea we were discussing if Gray and Natsu could beat Mard with Gray not having DeS. Gray is too far below Mard to do damage (just like Natsu was without DF), it's just like Jura v dragons he's so far below. Slayer advantage is even more pronounced with DeS in my opinion, or maybe it's because demons are in fact a lot weaker than dragons (sans END by hype).
I think current Natsu can now solo Mard too. I don't think it'd be a oneshot, I give Mard a lot credit for durability.
I agree 100%, without DeS even the 4(Natsu, Sting, Rogue and Gray) of them would have lost, Mard was too strong for FT at that point, LFD hits made Hades cry out in pain and he was probably in the top 4-5 mages in the continent but the same hits were nothing to Mard he even smiled at a LFD hit. Without Gray and his DeS Mard would have beat them all while chilling on his chair
I don't compare Tenrou LFD to any other version of LFD. That LFD had Laxus magic power and a lot of it. The LFD roar Hades took was huge, probably above the DF secret art Mard took. Since then LFD has been much less powerful, but up until the timeskip LFD is still Natsu's strongest offense without DF.
- I'll let Gray > Sting+Rogue slide. I don't rate Gray that high. He is not Natsu level to me.
- Iced shell: Well I left this out for 2 reasons. 1) It kills Gray (turns his life to ice). And 2) The strongest demon it's worked on is Deliora - is this demon stronger than Mard Geer king of Hades? I didn't want to bring this is because basically the feat is Deliora level minimum, but you could hype it as high as you want after that. Even to Acnologia if you're being so bold. Whose to say Mard Geer can't break from it like he did Galaxia Blade? I never see spells as infallible or infinite, the only magic that get's this is Fairy Heart.
- A full power Unison raid... is it realistic to think they can do it? Fire and Ice are opposites according to Silver, and Wahl (both in different ways which is weird). Even if we grant them complete unison, how powerful are unison raids? We saw Mard Geer absorb one (from Rogue and Sting). Are they going to suddenly transform a Natsu level attack into something above DF Natsu? I can't remember a single raid getting that much inflation. Raid's definitely increase power output, just not a massive+ one.
- LFD is brought up because the power output is Natsu's highest. That means this above Gray's offense (w/o DeS for the sake of argument). It is likely on par or better than Erza's offense at that arc. Mard took LFD Firing Hammer to the back of the head without any effect. This is like Gildarts taking on a Secret art at point blank and not even being fazed. Gildarts would definitely beath Gray and Natsu, just like Mard would.
- Only persons who can actually kill Mard Geer is Silver and Gray, using IDeS. DF Natsu is a chance.
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Yea we were discussing if Gray and Natsu could beat Mard with Gray not having DeS. Gray is too far below Mard to do damage (just like Natsu was without DF), it's just like Jura v dragons he's so far below. Slayer advantage is even more pronounced with DeS in my opinion, or maybe it's because demons are in fact a lot weaker than dragons (sans END by hype).
I think current Natsu can now solo Mard too. I don't think it'd be a oneshot, I give Mard a lot credit for durability.
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I don't compare Tenrou LFD to any other version of LFD. That LFD had Laxus magic power and a lot of it. The LFD roar Hades took was huge, probably above the DF secret art Mard took. Since then LFD has been much less powerful, but up until the timeskip LFD is still Natsu's strongest offense without DF.
Moderator Notice: Please stay on-topic. This is Mard Geer vs Ajeel. Allusions to other characters or battles should only be done for reference to a related point and not to derail the thread~ Holt
Because you scaled Mard Geer to CSK in Tartaros Arc, I have no idea how strong CSK is in Alvarez so I'm going to take your word and compare Alvarez Erza to Tartaros CSK. Erza stomping Tartaros CSK was based on the fact that Erza has gotten significantly stronger and can take on Mard Geer in my book, who you keep scaling to CSK. CSK is overrated... He didn't surprise me even since the beginning. His feat of smashing through Plutogrim really doesn't tell anything of his power except that he is gigantic.
In Tartaros Mard>>>Kyouka, who was roughly on Erza's level , the Celestial spirit King was contesting Mard while he was dependant on Lucy's diminished power yet he still managed to preform a city level feat. This Gives CSK's power to be above that of Tartaro Erza by a decent amount as he was using Lucy's power that in itself was limited. Now then because of this, It is pure speculation to assume Erza has increased so much above her Tartaros self given what she has shown from Avatar to now ATM.
I agree that Zero overwhelmed DF Natsu and that he can defeat Erza but this was all Pre-Timeskip so note that it should be Pre-Timeskip Erza. Current Alvarez Erza is on a whole different level now and would easily kill him.
Again not saying Erza couldn't but this is pure assumption. Master Zero was above pre timeskip Natsu + Gray+ Lucy, Jellal and Jura who should be compareable to current Erza.
Had we seen Ajeel in the same timeframe as Mard Geer and CSK, I would agree that they would be way stronger than Ajeel had he not been able to perform such feats compared to them while showing that he is clearly below them in power. But that didn't happen, so I still don't buy it. I would say Erza at maximum power could rival Base Natsu but that is how I see it. We just won't agree. I believe Erza and Natsu were similar in power during the Tartaros Arc, so I can't imagine Natsu on a totally different level than Erza now unless he is in Dragon Force, Flame Dragon King Mode, or E.N.D.
Current Natsu pulverised a hillside with a casual roar, all while defeating someone similar to Gildarts, demolished a war god and eradicated a City's worth of Earth with a dragon king Roar. What has Erza one since Tartaros that is so Impressive , she killed Jerome and landed a final blow on Ajeel. All of those are notable accomplishments but not a massive upgrade on her Tartaros self
Tartaros Natsu and Gray are as strong as Mard Geer because they defeated him. No Nakama Power or PoF was involved so it was fair and square. But this is not Base Natsu and Gray. This is DF Natsu and DeS Gray both at full powre so Mard Geer is still strong. But Ajeel is still on a whole different level.
Why is Ajeel on a whole different Level? Against demons Gray is comparable to Laxus and DF Natsu is comparable to Jellal , Mard Geer essentially took on two top tier combatants alone. The only way Ajeel would be higher than Mard would be if Current Erza>Tartaros Jellal+Laxus
Tartaros Erza is different from Current Erza by using logic from how she fared against Kyōka compared to Ajeel. Nakagami Starlight is stronger than DF Natsu's strongest attack because this was DF Natsu in Tartaros compared to Alvarez Erza who should be significantly stronger at this point or she is useless against a Spriggan. This is why I don't like to compare specific abilities of characters. How can you really tell who is faster? They have different feats from different battles. Either way, Erza is faster than Gray and Natsu. So Mard Geer isn't that fast. Ajeel is faster than Erza. Therefore, Ajeel can match Mard Geer except his flying capability which can be countered in different ways.
this is what I meant when I was Talking about comparing Attacks without quantifiable Basis, why Is Erza superior to Natsu and how is Nakagami Starlight stronger than Crimson lotus explosion blade, do you have destruction feats for starlight? Saying that it's because it's Alvarez erza is the equivalent of me saying Alvarez Laxus is stronger than Gildarts or Alvarez Lyon is stronger than tartaros Laxus or that alvarez Kagura is stronger than Mard because she is post time skip, there is no basis for these claims other than hype. Mard Geer Also doged Csk's slashes close range and xasually which is already better reactions that Erza not to mention he has faster attacks than Ajeel
I don't know what you mean by comparing things that can be quantified in a way... Nothing can be quantified in a manga with only one exception which I will explain later. For now, please explain yourself. How would you quantify comparisons in Fairy Tail? Using what method and work? If you can put a value on the difference between the amount of energy in Erza's Nakagami Starlight and Natsu's Crimson Lotus of the Phoenix Blade, please do so.
There is only one way to quantify magical power in Fairy Tail. That is through Hiro Mashima when he introduced the Magic Power Finder [MPF]. This is literally the only way things can be quantified in this manga. Anything else is nonsense. Don't fall into the trap with those guys who calculate it on Naruto Forums and stuff. They incorporate assumptions, guesses, and have questionable methods as to how they worked the problems. My point is that everything is qualitative. Therefore, I see nothing wrong with comparing feats between 2 different characters when the stats of one is definitely lower or higher than the other.
- I'll let Gray > Sting+Rogue slide. I don't rate Gray that high. He is not Natsu level to me.
- Iced shell: Well I left this out for 2 reasons. 1) It kills Gray (turns his life to ice). And 2) The strongest demon it's worked on is Deliora - is this demon stronger than Mard Geer king of Hades? I didn't want to bring this is because basically the feat is Deliora level minimum, but you could hype it as high as you want after that. Even to Acnologia if you're being so bold. Whose to say Mard Geer can't break from it like he did Galaxia Blade? I never see spells as infallible or infinite, the only magic that get's this is Fairy Heart.
- A full power Unison raid... is it realistic to think they can do it? Fire and Ice are opposites according to Silver, and Wahl (both in different ways which is weird). Even if we grant them complete unison, how powerful are unison raids? We saw Mard Geer absorb one (from Rogue and Sting). Are they going to suddenly transform a Natsu level attack into something above DF Natsu? I can't remember a single raid getting that much inflation. Raid's definitely increase power output, just not a massive+ one.
- LFD is brought up because the power output is Natsu's highest. That means this above Gray's offense (w/o DeS for the sake of argument). It is likely on par or better than Erza's offense at that arc. Mard took LFD Firing Hammer to the back of the head without any effect. This is like Gildarts taking on a Secret art at point blank and not even being fazed. Gildarts would definitely beath Gray and Natsu, just like Mard would.
- Only persons who can actually kill Mard Geer is Silver and Gray, using IDeS. DF Natsu is a chance.
Fair enough, like I said, I gave my word that you will have the last argument here so I won't discuss it any further. Just to correct you though, Unison Raids can be opposites. It is true that Juvia and Gray's Unison Raid was done with similar power which were water and ice respectively. But don't forget the example like Sting and Rogue. Their magic are exactly polar opposites. Rogue is Shadow [Dark] and Sting is White [Light]. Anyways, I do believe we might see a Unison Raid from Natsu and Gray sometime before Fairy Tail ends. It may well be in this arc we are currently on.
In Tartaros Mard>>>Kyouka, who was roughly on Erza's level , the Celestial spirit King was contesting Mard while he was dependant on Lucy's diminished power yet he still managed to preform a city level feat. This Gives CSK's power to be above that of Tartaro Erza by a decent amount as he was using Lucy's power that in itself was limited. Now then because of this, It is pure speculation to assume Erza has increased so much above her Tartaros self given what she has shown from Avatar to now ATM.
CSK couldn't defeat Mard Geer so that means he is weaker than him. Erza is within the power range of Mard Geer and Kyōka because she can't defeat Mard Geer, yet she was able to beat Kyōka herself. Is it that much of an assumption to label Erza having increased her power by 2x? Mard Geer is only about 2.5x stronger than Kyōka with a lot more health. Any reason to believe that Erza couldn't gain that much power? Please, I'm not comparing anything unrealistic here.
Again not saying Erza couldn't but this is pure assumption. Master Zero was above pre timeskip Natsu + Gray+ Lucy, Jellal and Jura who should be compareable to current Erza.
Really? I have only seen 2 users who compared Master Zero to Alvarez Erza including you. You will need a lot more evidence to convince anyone of this nonsense. I don't think you are right in comparing Master Zero to the characters you listed above. Yes, the majority are weaker, but I'd pick out a few from the list that are stronger than him. However, assuming you were right on Master Zero being above Pre-Timeskip Natsu, Gray, Lucy, Jellal, and Jura, you do know that Post-Timeskip has vastly changed since then, right? I don't need to explain this as I already did in my other posts but just know that Erza was able to survive against Ajeel. Master Zero would be killed by Ajeel even if he had Jupiter Cannon's support.
Current Natsu pulverised a hillside with a casual roar, all while defeating someone similar to Gildarts, demolished a war god and eradicated a City's worth of Earth with a dragon king Roar. What has Erza one since Tartaros that is so Impressive , she killed Jerome and landed a final blow on Ajeel. All of those are notable accomplishments but not a massive upgrade on her Tartaros self
I see your methods of debating... Very well, but I don't fall into the trap where people twists my words. Based on the feats I've seen, Current Erza is comparable to Current Base Natsu. I hope you clearly see my words this time. I said Base Natsu. So stop framing me for comparing anything above Current Base Natsu in relation to Tartaros Erza. Tartaros has nothing to do with what I said. Only Current Erza and Current Base Natsu. I'm not the only one who thinks this anyways... Go look at the other threads on the forums and you'll see similar thought processes too. I seem to get that you are in your own world.
Why is Ajeel on a whole different Level? Against demons Gray is comparable to Laxus and DF Natsu is comparable to Jellal , Mard Geer essentially took on two top tier combatants alone. The only way Ajeel would be higher than Mard would be if Current Erza>Tartaros Jellal+Laxus
Because hype was given that Ajeel is indeed on a whole different level with feats to back it up. I don't get what is so hard to understand. Yes, Mard Geer took two strong FT mages alone but lost. Not to mention, those two same mages are easily on a different level than Mard Geer in the Alvarez Arc. Your last statement doesn't make much sense. The reason for that is Current Erza outright lost to Ajeel with help from a Jupiter Cannon. This basically means that Ajeel is on a whole different level than Current Erza. So even if Current Erza is above Tartaros Jellal + Laxus which is not necessarily true as there are factors that would be involved, Ajeel can still beat both of them in a split second.
this is what I meant when I was Talking about comparing Attacks without quantifiable Basis, why Is Erza superior to Natsu and how is Nakagami Starlight stronger than Crimson lotus explosion blade, do you have destruction feats for starlight? Saying that it's because it's Alvarez erza is the equivalent of me saying Alvarez Laxus is stronger than Gildarts or Alvarez Lyon is stronger than tartaros Laxus or that alvarez Kagura is stronger than Mard because she is post time skip, there is no basis for these claims other than hype. Mard Geer Also doged Csk's slashes close range and xasually which is already better reactions that Erza not to mention he has faster attacks than Ajeel
Honest question, have you been reading my posts or negating them but still trying to argue with me to win an argument? I'll explain it again to help you avoid the trouble of scrolling and looking through my posts. As I said, Tartaros Erza > Tartaros LFD Natsu. DF Natsu surpasses Erza but he was not on a whole different level as he couldn't defeat Mard Geer in a 1 on 1 match. This means Erza is not that much weaker than DF Natsu.
Furthermore, Mard Geer was only 2x stronger than Erza. Erza has plenty of time to close in that gap during the 1 year timeskip.
Additionally, Nakagami Starlight is pretty much Erza's strongest attack while Crimson Lotus: Phoenix Blade would be Natsu's strongest attack. Crimson Lotus: Phoenix Blade didn't kill Mard Geer even with its piercing advantage. Nakagami Starlight was assumed to have critically injured Ajeel. This is enough evidence here as I didn't even get into how much stronger Ajeel is then Mard Geer.
I don't even know how to reply to this one. Quantify literally means to put a numerical value on an attack. Basically, it means labeling something with a clear and concise number. Until you can do that much, there is no logic behind quantifying attacks. What you named are qualitative descriptions; therefore, you can only judge an attack's damage, size, and range through qualitative analysis.
CSK couldn't defeat Mard Geer so that means he is weaker than him. Erza is within the power range of Mard Geer and Kyōka because she can't defeat Mard Geer, yet she was able to beat Kyōka herself. Is it that much of an assumption to label Erza having increased her power by 2x? Mard Geer is only about 2.5x stronger than Kyōka with a lot more health. Any reason to believe that Erza couldn't gain that much power? Please, I'm not comparing anything unrealistic here.
you don't need to be stronger than someone to be in their power range, CSK was using very limited power and still was able to 'beat' Mard, even if it was just temporary. where did you get the 2.5? it was genrally accepted that Kyouka at her peak ( Face excluded) is in the Town level range of destructive capacity(high kilotonnes or 1 megaton) and Mard is placed city level( low megatonnes) . Erza having doubled her strength is very plausible But she hasn't shown anything so far that suggests that.
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Really? I have only seen 2 users who compared Master Zero to Alvarez Erza including you. You will need a lot more evidence to convince anyone of this nonsense. I don't think you are right in comparing Master Zero to the characters you listed above. Yes, the majority are weaker, but I'd pick out a few from the list that are stronger than him. However, assuming you were right on Master Zero being above Pre-Timeskip Natsu, Gray, Lucy, Jellal, and Jura, you do know that Post-Timeskip has vastly changed since then, right? I don't need to explain this as I already did in my other posts but just know that Erza was able to survive against Ajeel. Master Zero would be killed by Ajeel even if he had Jupiter Cannon's support
I am not saying Zero is on the Same level as her, I just said that I doubt she can low diff him like you said
I see your methods of debating... Very well, but I don't fall into the trap where people twists my words. Based on the feats I've seen, Current Erza is comparable to Current Base Natsu. I hope you clearly see my words this time. I said Base Natsu. So stop framing me for comparing anything above Current Base Natsu in relation to Tartaros Erza. Tartaros has nothing to do with what I said. Only Current Erza and Current Base Natsu. I'm not the only one who thinks this anyways... Go look at the other threads on the forums and you'll see similar thought processes too. I seem to get that you are in your own world.
I never mentioned Tartaros Erza, I said since Tartaros as in currently ( from Avatar to Now). And all those feats( bluenote roar, war god smash, king roar) were Base Natsu fighting quite Casually as I said Erza hasn't done anything that places her on his level yet in this timeskip .
Because hype was given that Ajeel is indeed on a whole different level with feats to back it up. I don't get what is so hard to understand. Yes, Mard Geer took two strong FT mages alone but lost. Not to mention, those two same mages are easily on a different level than Mard Geer in the Alvarez Arc. Your last statement doesn't make much sense. The reason for that is Current Erza outright lost to Ajeel with help from a Jupiter Cannon. This basically means that Ajeel is on a whole different level than Current Erza. So even if Current Erza is above Tartaros Jellal + Laxus which is not necessarily true as there are factors that would be involved, Ajeel can still beat both of them in a split second.
What are his feats? Town level spells and intangibility coupled with semi omnipresence with sand world.The fact is Mard took them to their very limits after he fought with sting, rouge and the celestial spirit king. Current Natsu may beat Mard but he doesn't Stomp him and Current Gray is Tartaros des gray with more freezing power but would still get beat by Mard. my last statement is because Ajeel has only fought with Erza, and he lost, even though he dominated, to a town level canon and a starlight slash. Ajeel from the feats he has shown is not going to Low diff DES gray+ DF Nastu
Honest question, have you been reading my posts or negating them but still trying to argue with me to win an argument? I'll explain it again to help you avoid the trouble of scrolling and looking through my posts. As I said, Tartaros Erza > Tartaros LFD Natsu. DF Natsu surpasses Erza but he was not on a whole different level as he couldn't defeat Mard Geer in a 1 on 1 match. This means Erza is not that much weaker than DF Natsu.
Furthermore, Mard Geer was only 2x stronger than Erza. Erza has plenty of time to close in that gap during the 1 year timeskip.
Additionally, Nakagami Starlight is pretty much Erza's strongest attack while Crimson Lotus: Phoenix Blade would be Natsu's strongest attack. Crimson Lotus: Phoenix Blade didn't kill Mard Geer even with its piercing advantage. Nakagami Starlight was assumed to have critically injured Ajeel. This is enough evidence here as I didn't even get into how much stronger Ajeel is then Mard Geer.
I dont get why Erza is Above tartaros LFD, is it because she beat Kyouka or something else? because if it is I don't see how it links to Natsu's clash with Mard but Okay I'll give that the benefit of the doubt seeing as LFD feats are in short supply. I won't dwell on that 2x Stronger thing because I want to know how you got that .
I don't even know how to reply to this one. Quantify literally means to put a numerical value on an attack. Basically, it means labeling something with a clear and concise number. Until you can do that much, there is no logic behind quantifying attacks. What you named are qualitative descriptions; therefore, you can only judge an attack's damage, size, and range through qualitative analysis.
well not really seeing as when you know what the attack damaged via pixel scaling or author statements you can then calculate the amount of energy needed to destroy said object and so on, of course qualitative methods can be used but I am refering to quantifiable feats via calcs/ author statements.
