So is he invulnerable when he assimilates with the sand? You act like he cannot be damaged when he is in his sandstorm. Physical objects like Erza would fail but not Mirajane's magic attacks.
Yeah, exactly. His weakness is that he has to materialize to attack, and due to his cocky nature he's likely to approach you in CQC rather then kiting you. At which point you can overwhelm/defeat him provided you are strong enough to do so. There is also using an attack that completely encompasses the entirety of the sand world, but no attack in FT has shown that level of AoE. Universe One is a utility move. And lastly you can outlast him, assuming you are tanky enough to tank all his attacks (which aren't extremely powerful like Wahls), I don't know how long he can maintain SW but given its scale its probably not absurdly long.
I never said she could. But she doesn't need to. Erza's requip is not instantaneous either.
Acnologia Vs Ajeel: Ajeel uses Sand World, materializes to attack and Acnologia grabs his face and smashes it into the ground.
Laxus Vs Ajeel: Ajeel materializes to attack, Laxus musters enough strength to pull a reversal on him and slams him with a nuke.
Wahl: Creates a weakness bot that constantly releases wind, forcing Ajeel to attack and overwhelmed him.
I could go on. Mirajane can't defeat him on the basis that overwhelming Juliet and Heine isn't enough of a feat for me to say she can also completely overwhelm Ajeel.
I already read the chapter. So when you have time, please post the scans and tell me which part you're referencing. We're debating this because I claim that Ajeel was in critical condition when Erza finished him off. You denied that and said Ajeel didn't have any severe injuries. The stain of blood isn't the focus of this debate. Ajeel's condition is. You say that the Jupiter Cannon took out a quarter of Ajeel's HP at best which is perfectly fine with me. Combine that with other injuries he received throughout the fight as well as fatigue. He is surely not in good shape
Good shape? No I never said he was. He was in passable shape. Yes he was injured and his combined injuries weren't light by any means, but if Erza did not hit him there he could have still fought and been a threat, which means the damage that Starlight did was substantial.
Critical condition does not mean one is immobilized or on the verge of death... Laxus was in critical condition after fighting Wahl, yet he was still able to move.
Actually that's exactly what it means, critical condition means the persons death may be imminent. Laxus as he was right before Wahl cured him was in critical condition (on the floor, coughing up blood), Laxus as he was right after the fight was simply in bad shape.
To be fair though, Gajeel couldn't do anything to Bradman because his body was made of Magic Barrier Particles. The moment he could hit Bradman, he was able to turn the tables around. Dragon Force may have increased his power but that just compensates for Gajeel's disadvantage in the beginning of the fight.
Wouldn't have mattered, base Bradman was doing absolutely fine in CQC with base Gajeel. Its only thanks to DF that Gajeel was able to completely and utterly overwhelm Bradman in CQC.
I got the 2x from the Tartaros Character Carss created by Hiro Mashima. I'm pretty sure you disagree with it, but I don't see why Hiro Mashima would create false stats for a game. Otherwise, it would be meaningless to begin with. It's probably how he sees them anyways, so you can deny it all you want.
I mean, the bolded answered your own question. Yes its how he sees them but there are other factors to consider here such as whether this includes their EF forms or not, if it includes Torafusas enhanced skin, just how much each stat actually impacts a battle (Kyouka has a far higher intelligence stat for example but that won't play a role in the battle) and so on. If it was a straight up tier list it would be different but there are too many variables to consider with these game cards for them to be used as evidence. Notice how he didn't even add an overall stat, its for that very reason. Franmalth is incredibly low, Hades soul was obviously not considered. Mard's curse is certainly the most powerful, but Kyoukas curse is more useful in battle etc....
In short, these game cards aren't credible as evidence in the way in which you are trying to use them.
But my point is that Erza was not at full energy when she fought Kyōka. You can argue and say that they're not the same but you would still have to take into account that Erza is not fully recovered. If you choose to ignore this simple feat, then explain why Erza had trouble against Neinhart. So her battle with Ajeel didn't take a toll on her?
Well then we take current DF Natsu (even if he hasn't shown it yet, we know he can go DF being a dragon slayer) as well, in which case its still an enormous improvement. I thought we were talking about their own power, not temporary ones.
What does heat have to do with this? Did it say that Mirajane's MP gives off heat? The sand around her proves nothing as I already explained in my other post.
What else evaporated a little section of the lake? If the pressure of her MP is your answer then it makes no difference, that just means that said pressure is hot. I don't recall you explaining anything of the like.......
Mirajane's AoE is:
- Larger than Grand Chariot.
- Roughly equivalent to the punch Natsu used against the Alvarez troops
- Smaller than Sema/Laxus' nuke/FDK spells
Now, I agree that given that Mirajane's AoE is larger than the airship, she would hit Ajeel no matter where he was hiding. My main concern about Mirajane's nuke was that it was tankable by Juliet and Heine, who should not have durability greater than Ajeel. Even giving Juliet and Heine the benefit of doubt of being Ajeel's level in durability, Mirajane's nukes would probably not deal significant damage to Ajeel. Keep in mind that Ajeel has the power to disperse Jupiter cannon. The reason he got hit was because he got blindsided by his own sand. If Ajeel was aware of Mirajane throwing a nuke at him, he can probably defend against it. Mirajane would need to resort to Alegria form to deal significant damage to Ajeel, which is a CQC move. It kicked up a lot of sand, but it doesn't actually cause an explosion. The only way I see this working out in Mirajane's favor is if her magical power can somehow disperse sand, enough so that she can see against Ajeel.
The rules are a bit wonky though. Saying that Mirajane can stay in Alegria form for an unlimited amount of time is basically saying she has infinite magical power, which should give her the win just on that point. As it happens to be, however, Mirajane can only use Alegria for a couple of attacks.
And yet he would have beaten Erza in the air if not for the Jupiter Cannon,one of FT's elite fighters, and someone who has better feats than Mira at this point. Basically if you think Ajeel is "fodder" most characters in this manga are fodder as well. Mira's ability to fly does not just negate Ajeels Sand World. That attack stretches far into the air as well, plus he was literally in the air above Erza when he was attacking her,showing he can indeed meld with sand while in the air.
And yet he would have beaten Erza in the air if not for the Jupiter Cannon,one of FT's elite fighters, and someone who has better feats than Mira at this point. Basically if you think Ajeel is "fodder" most characters in this manga are fodder as well. Mira's ability to fly does not just negate Ajeels Sand World. That attack stretches far into the air as well, plus he was literally in the air above Erza when he was attacking her,showing he can indeed meld with sand while in the air.
Sand World does no damage your right, but that's not the strength of the attack. It blocks out all view for an opponent, while retaining his own which gives him a huge advantage obviously. Sand World also is as large as Magnolia, so flying out of it would not be that easy honestly. It would take time, and during that time Ajeel would be attacking her. As far as Mira being way stronger than Erza, I think the portrayel largely disagrees with you, and so do the feats. I think you are overrating Mira here, and underrating Ajeel a lot. However that is your opinion, and I respect that. I think we are just too far apart to be discussing this in detail, which does not surprise me seeing as how we have debated before only to largely disagree as well. One thing we both can agree on though is that Gray is a boss(he is my favorite character) if your signature indicates what I think it does haha.
The roar is named, it's named Fire Dragons Roar. That is the name of the spell. Calling it unnamed is incorrect. What do you think the spell is called that Natsu used there?
It was a silent chapter, so perhaps Natsu actually said the words... or maybe Gildarts and Natsu didn't even utter a word the whole time? But if you want to ignore the mechanics of DS magic and Hiro's selectivity when it comes to having the characters say the words of the spell at times, then I will concede Mirajane has no named tech in Alegria soul, just a physical blow.
To answer your question, I don't think there was a name for the spell Natsu used. At least it wasn't mentioned. It's just a basic roar.
Fair enough. It was a silent chapter so no dialogue was used. How about this one?
While you're thinking of a name for it, notice how Gray uses an attack in the same page, yet there is no name to it. The bottom line here is that there are unnamed attacks and they aren't necessarily weaker.
Nakagami/Miralegria being exhaustive+short-term magic is not baseless. It's stated and shown.
Then why even say casual? It's not related to casual in any way.
Laxus doesn't have an MP feat to show his improvement where he's altered the environment in any way. His feats come directly from combat. These are both physical and magical feats. Erza is the same in this regard.
Miralegria didn't oneshot Juliet or Hynhe either, they were injured. Erza doing damage on Ajeel is simply a better feat.
I'm never said that Nakagami or Alegria being short-term magic is baseless. I said saying Erza has more MP than Mirajane is baseless. Besides, your point about Alegria being exhaustive is invalid. The rules negate that completely.
I said "casual" because that's what you implied. Your previous argument was that Mirajane didn't use a named attack; therefore, we can't speculate whether she has a stronger one or not.
You don't need an environmental change to display MP. We can tell Laxus has more MP based on his attacks and stamina.
Has she charged it before though? If she's powerful, it won't need much of a charge, she should be able to dump the power quite quickly. Laxus and Natsu can. You're being quite liberal with how Mira's nukes work.
Ajeel's durability is not a top tier within the 12, but having Spriggan level durability is top tier among humans. Only Wahl, DiMaria(Chronos only), and God Serena are the ones I consider with better feats. Ajeel had a few scatches on his face from the punch, and I think that only lasted 1 panel? That wouldn't even qualify as minor injuries in my book.
So if Ajeel doesn't have high durability, what makes you think he is that much higher than Juliet + Hynhe? Eileen was confident that they could take on Crime Sorcière which tells us they aren't fodders. It seems like you're equating Juliet + Hynhe to Marin, Neinhart's fodders, Bakel + Kareem, Wahl's Robots, and Bradman's soldiers. They are Eileen's best subordinates, so they are not the same.
Because she was exhausted by Alegria Soul... I don't want to sound like a broken record, but the rules clearly state that she can stay in that form for as long as she wants.
Wouldn't have to is not what matters. What matters is if it will. You can't augment the nuke to suit your preferences. If more MP is put into a nuke, it does more damage (ie more power is in it) and it gets bigger (more AoE). Natsu's roars demonstrate this. Could Mira's nukes be different? Yes they could. But that's why I asked whether or not Mira's nukes have shown to become more potent without a change to AoE. But even so, the nuke she used against Juliet/Hynhe was unremarkable. The amount of power she's have to add to do more than tickle Ajeel is many times more.
Laxus raised his hand and a nuke dropped. That's what it looked like.
Mira's nukes don't need to do major damage. Let's call it moderate. Can she even achieve that? Miralegria is far more potent than the nukes, and even in this form it is questionable that she can achieve moderate damage. I really don't see how you can call Mira's nukes effective here, other than probably dispersing some sand.
Natsu's roar is Natsu. Not Mirajane. Gray's DeS attacks are far more potent but have less AoE than Ice Make: Silver. The more MP Lucy puts into her spirits, the stronger they get (not bigger). Similarly, Erza's attacks don't change in size when she puts more MP into it. I'm not saying that Mirajane's attacks won't increase in AoE when more MP is applied. I'm just saying that this is always the case. Which is why it is baseless to say that Mirajane's attack is as strong as it gets (just because it is huge). Mirajane's attacks won't tickle Ajeel. I guarantee damage will be done.
That's how you interpret it. I can easily say that Laxus charged his nuke while atop the Christina ship.
Like I already said to another user, her nukes will be mainly used to disperse the sand, not attack. Her Alegria form is the finishing move.
So Erza struggles more than Laxus, Natsu and Jellal; and that makes her improvement classed as barely? The rest of FT characters haven't shown that they could fight a Spriggan evenly, nor do better than Erza. Gajeel was getting beaten badly with help, before he activated DF.
Barely improved compared to other characters. Gajeel couldn't hit Bradman. That is why he was getting beaten up. Dragon Force just compensated for that disadvantage.
Yeah, exactly. His weakness is that he has to materialize to attack, and due to his cocky nature he's likely to approach you in CQC rather then kiting you. At which point you can overwhelm/defeat him provided you are strong enough to do so. There is also using an attack that completely encompasses the entirety of the sand world, but no attack in FT has shown that level of AoE. Universe One is a utility move. And lastly you can outlast him, assuming you are tanky enough to tank all his attacks (which aren't extremely powerful like Wahls), I don't know how long he can maintain SW but given its scale its probably not absurdly long.
The reason why the sand came right back at Erza is because Erza only scattered it a few meters away from her... Mirajane's attack won't yield the same results.
Acnologia Vs Ajeel: Ajeel uses Sand World, materializes to attack and Acnologia grabs his face and smashes it into the ground.
Laxus Vs Ajeel: Ajeel materializes to attack, Laxus musters enough strength to pull a reversal on him and slams him with a nuke.
Wahl: Creates a weakness bot that constantly releases wind, forcing Ajeel to attack and overwhelmed him.
I could go on. Mirajane can't defeat him on the basis that overwhelming Juliet and Heine isn't enough of a feat for me to say she can also completely overwhelm Ajeel.
Good shape? No I never said he was. He was in passable shape. Yes he was injured and his combined injuries weren't light by any means, but if Erza did not hit him there he could have still fought and been a threat, which means the damage that Starlight did was substantial.
Passable shape? In that case, why didn't he recover from the attack? Instead, he was dropping like a fly, vulnerable to any attacks that would come at him.
Laxus could still fight after beating Wahl as we saw him defeat Hades, but was he in critical condition? Yes. To the point he needed to be hospitalized after the South was cleared.
Actually that's exactly what it means, critical condition means the persons death may be imminent. Laxus as he was right before Wahl cured him was in critical condition (on the floor, coughing up blood), Laxus as he was right after the fight was simply in bad shape.
Okay, you have your definition for critical condition. My definition is plain and simple. It just means they barely have enough strength left to fight. But if Ajeel was truly about to die, I would say he is on the brink of death.
Wouldn't have mattered, base Bradman was doing absolutely fine in CQC with base Gajeel. Its only thanks to DF that Gajeel was able to completely and utterly overwhelm Bradman in CQC.
Bradman was doing fine. But not Gajeel. He was being owned to the point he thought that he would die. The fact is, Gajeel couldn't hit Bradman before Dragon Force. I don't deny that Gajeel got stronger with DF but one of the turning points in the fight was that Gajeel could actually hit Bradman, making it a fair fight.
I mean, the bolded answered your own question. Yes its how he sees them but there are other factors to consider here such as whether this includes their EF forms or not, if it includes Torafusas enhanced skin, just how much each stat actually impacts a battle (Kyouka has a far higher intelligence stat for example but that won't play a role in the battle) and so on. If it was a straight up tier list it would be different but there are too many variables to consider with these game cards for them to be used as evidence. Notice how he didn't even add an overall stat, its for that very reason. Franmalth is incredibly low, Hades soul was obviously not considered. Mard's curse is certainly the most powerful, but Kyoukas curse is more useful in battle etc....
In short, these game cards aren't credible as evidence in the way in which you are trying to use them.
Kyōka's Etherious Form is stronger than Torafusa's Etherious Form so it wouldn't matter. Even if Torafusa gained more durability, Kyōka would gain more attack power and speed. Her intelligence doesn't icnrease when she goes EF. The reason there is no overall stat is because that isn't how the game is played.
These games are more credible than any scenario we can come up with considering this is created byt he author.
Yeah, she was. The "punishment" from Mard Geer didn't do any damage to her body. At most it just crushed her armor. It's true Erza was in far better condition after fighting Minerva compared to Ajeel but the point here is that Erza wasn't at full power.
Well then we take current DF Natsu (even if he hasn't shown it yet, we know he can go DF being a dragon slayer) as well, in which case its still an enormous improvement. I thought we were talking about their own power, not temporary ones.
We are talking about their own power. But why their Base Forms? DF isn't just temporary, it's Natsu's full power.
What else evaporated a little section of the lake? If the pressure of her MP is your answer then it makes no difference, that just means that said pressure is hot. I don't recall you explaining anything of the like.......[/QUOTE]
That doesn't make sense though. Pressure and temperature are completely separate. I don't think the way Mirajane dried up the lake was the same as Natsu evaporating it.
As for my explanation, I said that sand on the ground is different from sand in the air.
While you're thinking of a name for it, notice how Gray uses an attack in the same page, yet there is no name to it. The bottom line here is that there are unnamed attacks and they aren't necessarily weaker.
Lol. I'm trying not to be condescending here but it's hard to discuss this without saying you're not understand Natsu's fire dragon slaying magic. He has a spell set and each one of them has a name. Natsu can imbue his hands with fire - he's done this often - this is not a spell. I don't know what Natsu did in that panel, and I'm not going to try when I can't determine the mechanics of the spells. A fire dragon slayer spell, like a roar/talons/fist/claw etc these are spells that mimic what a fire dragon can do, namely Igneel. This is essentially what Fire DS magic is, or at least how dragons teach it to humans.
To go back to my original premise - which kickstarted this discussion on names - I suggested that a named attack for Miralegria would be stronger than just a physical attack. If there isn't a named tech (because Alegria is a spell itself) - and it's just a physical attack - then this attack would be her version of Starlight. To prove she has Starlight-level power with this Soul, then Mira would need feats with it, better than the ones she has.
I'm never said that Nakagami or Alegria being short-term magic is baseless. I said saying Erza has more MP than Mirajane is baseless. Besides, your point about Alegria being exhaustive is invalid. The rules negate that completely.
My apologise. I did say that I'm giving Mira the benefit of the doubt that her MP is comparable to Erza. Miralegria being an exhaustive form is the proof that it's powerful. If she wasn't exhausted from it there would be no way in the world I'd hype it to Nakagami level unless it had the feats to prove so. The rules of this tournament mean there is no drain from keeping the form active - which is essentially the same as keeping her MP fixed to full.
I said "casual" because that's what you implied. Your previous argument was that Mirajane didn't use a named attack; therefore, we can't speculate whether she has a stronger one or not.
I didn't imply casual. Physical blows in this manga are often more damaging than nukes. I'm saying that if Miralegria has a named attack - and she might not - this named attack would be superior to what she did the sword girls. The only speculation her is if she has a named attack.
Then what was the point about Mira's MP evaporating/pushing things to the side? Natsu's wiped out a lake, Jellal changed the whole sky, and I'd say their MP would be comparable to Laxus - who doesn't have an MP type feat like that. I feel those MP feats are to show they are powerful. I don't put much stock into it, like I won't hold it against someone for not getting this type of feat. If someone does get one, then I will say that person is powerful, which is how I view Mira. Stronger than Erza though? No, because her combat feats don't stack up, or at least she hasn't had the chance to prove so.
Then whats the point of a nuke, if someone in the line of fire isn't even getting hit properly? And by extension, how do Mira's nukes work in terms of power distribution (ie where are the strong/weak points)? My opinion - they were within the smaller AoE, which means they were likely affected by as much of the nuke as possible.
So if Ajeel doesn't have high durability, what makes you think he is that much higher than Juliet + Hynhe? Eileen was confident that they could take on Crime Sorcière which tells us they aren't fodders. It seems like you're equating Juliet + Hynhe to Marin, Neinhart's fodders, Bakel + Kareem, Wahl's Robots, and Bradman's soldiers. They are Eileen's best subordinates, so they are not the same.
Having Spriggan tiered durability is extraordinarly high durability. More than Erza, Gray, Mira, Natsu - going on current feats. Likely more than Jellal and likely level with Laxus.
No I'm not equating the subordinates like that. I just don't really see someone like Juliet to be a class above someone like Bakel. Neinhart had complete fodders compared to the rest. I don't see any reason for Irene's to be better because she's a better Spriggan.
Because she was exhausted by Alegria Soul... I don't want to sound like a broken record, but the rules clearly state that she can stay in that form for as long as she wants.
Natsu's roar is Natsu. Not Mirajane. Gray's DeS attacks are far more potent but have less AoE than Ice Make: Silver. The more MP Lucy puts into her spirits, the stronger they get (not bigger). Similarly, Erza's attacks don't change in size when she puts more MP into it. I'm not saying that Mirajane's attacks won't increase in AoE when more MP is applied. I'm just saying that this is always the case. Which is why it is baseless to say that Mirajane's attack is as strong as it gets (just because it is huge). Mirajane's attacks won't tickle Ajeel. I guarantee damage will be done.
That's how you interpret it. I can easily say that Laxus charged his nuke while atop the Christina ship.
Like I already said to another user, her nukes will be mainly used to disperse the sand, not attack. Her Alegria form is the finishing move.
That's fine. But you're telling me that Mira can increase the intensity of her nukes, without really any reason why. I'm keeping it nuke specific, so there's no need to compare Erza; I prefer to compare like with like. I don't think there is any denying that Miralegria's attacks >> SS Mira's nukes. The nukes will tickle Ajeel, if they're like the one used against Irene's lackeys.
Where and when did Laxus charge said nuke?
That's okay, then she'd disperse the sand for only seconds, have to summon Miralegria, and have Ajeel frozen stiff essentially.
Barely improved compared to other characters. Gajeel couldn't hit Bradman. That is why he was getting beaten up. Dragon Force just compensated for that disadvantage.
She's still improved a lot. Not as much as Natsu, but probably as much as Gajeel or Gray. Possibly a little less than them, but not enough to warrant barely.
Gajeel couldn't hit Bradman I do agree to that, but he was getting beaten badly before it.
When Ajeel assimilates into the sand he is becoming sand. How are you supposed to hit him exactly?
The reason why the sand came right back at Erza is because Erza only scattered it a few meters away from her... Mirajane's attack won't yield the same results.
No, the reason it came back is because thats what sandstorms do. You could blow a large portion of a sand storm away but its still going to come blowing back.
Based on Mira being able to slam Juliet and Heine into the ground (a feat Ajeel could easily replicate)? Yeah no. This is what I mean when I say Miras Alegria form doesn't have enough feats, benefit of the doubt only goes so far.
Passable shape? In that case, why didn't he recover from the attack? Instead, he was dropping like a fly, vulnerable to any attacks that would come at him.
What are you talking about? He was hit with Jupiter, sent flying and Erza hit him immediately after while he was in mid-air.
Laxus could still fight after beating Wahl as we saw him defeat Hades, but was he in critical condition? Yes. To the point he needed to be hospitalized after the South was cleared.
Okay, you have your definition for critical condition. My definition is plain and simple. It just means they barely have enough strength left to fight. But if Ajeel was truly about to die, I would say he is on the brink of death.
This is not debatable my friend, there is a set definition for what critical condition means and yours ain't it.
GW Hospital defines critical condition as "uncertain prognosis, vital signs are unstable or abnormal, there are major complications, and death may be imminent.
You could even look up critical condition in google images, every single picture you will find it that of a person unconscious with a bunch of machines strapped to their person, trying to keep them alive. If you can still fight, you are nowhere near critical condition.
Bradman was doing fine. But not Gajeel. He was being owned to the point he thought that he would die. The fact is, Gajeel couldn't hit Bradman before Dragon Force. I don't deny that Gajeel got stronger with DF but one of the turning points in the fight was that Gajeel could actually hit Bradman, making it a fair fight.
Gajeel wouldn't have even been able to hit Bradman had the only thing he gained been the ability to hit Bradman (ironically). Bradman matched him strength and was arguably even faster. DF gave Gajeel the necessary physical stats to stomp Bradman. Even if Gajeel still couldn't hit Bradman he could have probably just ended it with a roar.
Kyōka's Etherious Form is stronger than Torafusa's Etherious Form so it wouldn't matter. Even if Torafusa gained more durability, Kyōka would gain more attack power and speed. Her intelligence doesn't icnrease when she goes EF. The reason there is no overall stat is because that isn't how the game is played.
No it was't. Torafusas hardened skin >>> any speed and strength boost that Kyouka may have gotten. Torafusa also clearly got a boost in strength, and when in Tenchi Kaimei Torafusas speed is also vastly greater (while his opponents is vastly inferior). The only reason why I would give Kyouka the edge over Torafusa is because of her ability to take away your senses.
These games are more credible than any scenario we can come up with considering this is created byt he author.
I repeat, too many unknown variables that Hiro did not give for it to be credible evidence. I am not saying the stats given are not valid, I am saying there are things Hiro clearly did not include and thus your evidence has major holes. Did he include Torafusas hardened skin? Did he include the fact that Torafusas speed vastly increases while his opponents speed (in this case Kyouka) vastly decreases? Those two factors alone would bridge the gap in their stats, and yet he did not include them, probably for the same reason he did not include any of Franmalths souls or Saylas limiter release state. He just made basic base stats, he did not go into detail on the mechanics of each characters abilities because he did that in the manga (where it is much easier to do).
Yeah, she was. The "punishment" from Mard Geer didn't do any damage to her body. At most it just crushed her armor. It's true Erza was in far better condition after fighting Minerva compared to Ajeel but the point here is that Erza wasn't at full power.
No its not, its temporary until proven otherwise. If he could use it at will then he wouldn't have contemplated using Igneels power when Brandish and Ajeel showed up and he would have used it alongside Igneels power against Zeref (he would have been as strong as Acnologia, if not stronger had he done so). The reason he activated it against Mard was probably because of the remnants of Igneels flames, or a byproduct of Igneel leaving his body or whatever, don't really want to speculate too much on the matter.
That doesn't make sense though. Pressure and temperature are completely separate. I don't think the way Mirajane dried up the lake was the same as Natsu evaporating it.
In what way? A grain of sand on the ground is NO different then a grain of sand in the air. A sandstorm is wind kicking up the sand from the ground and blowing it through the air.
Lol. I'm trying not to be condescending here but it's hard to discuss this without saying you're not understand Natsu's fire dragon slaying magic. He has a spell set and each one of them has a name. Natsu can imbue his hands with fire - he's done this often - this is not a spell. I don't know what Natsu did in that panel, and I'm not going to try when I can't determine the mechanics of the spells. A fire dragon slayer spell, like a roar/talons/fist/claw etc these are spells that mimic what a fire dragon can do, namely Igneel. This is essentially what Fire DS magic is, or at least how dragons teach it to humans.
To go back to my original premise - which kickstarted this discussion on names - I suggested that a named attack for Miralegria would be stronger than just a physical attack. If there isn't a named tech (because Alegria is a spell itself) - and it's just a physical attack - then this attack would be her version of Starlight. To prove she has Starlight-level power with this Soul, then Mira would need feats with it, better than the ones she has.
But how do you know that Natsu just imbued his hands with fire? Are you positive it isn't a spell? It isn't as simple as it looks. I understand what Fire Dragon Slaying Magic is. But what you're trying to prove here is far-fetched. It's like you don't believe in unnamed spell sand that every spell is named (we just don't know what they're called). Even if it was named, how do you know it isn't Fire Dragon King's Roar? See what I mean? Assumptions won't get us anywhere. I will wait until the anime comes out and proves me wrong before I concede. As of right now, I won't.
I also didn't get an answer for the name of Gray's spell.
Alegria is technically a spell. Mirajane's Takeover Magic is her magic. Transformation is a spell... Tell me why we've never seen Mirajane use any named spell besides her transformation? The easiest answer is that she doesn't have any.
Then what was the point about Mira's MP evaporating/pushing things to the side? Natsu's wiped out a lake, Jellal changed the whole sky, and I'd say their MP would be comparable to Laxus - who doesn't have an MP type feat like that. I feel those MP feats are to show they are powerful. I don't put much stock into it, like I won't hold it against someone for not getting this type of feat. If someone does get one, then I will say that person is powerful, which is how I view Mira. Stronger than Erza though? No, because her combat feats don't stack up, or at least she hasn't had the chance to prove so.
Because Mirajane's MP is shown to be comparable to Natsu, Jellal, and Laxus. Like I said, Laxus has shown having high amounts of MP other ways. Tell me what Erza has that would put her on their level? She doesn't have to change the environment but her attacks/stamina doesn't show as much of an improvement in MP as the others.
Erza's combat feats weren't that impressive either. He intelligence was what pulled her though her battle with Ajeel.
Then whats the point of a nuke, if someone in the line of fire isn't even getting hit properly? And by extension, how do Mira's nukes work in terms of power distribution (ie where are the strong/weak points)? My opinion - they were within the smaller AoE, which means they were likely affected by as much of the nuke as possible.
The point of a nuke is to be able to fodderize many, many targets. Just like how Natsu destroyed more than 1,000 Alvarez Troops. AoE is also useful when going up against a group of characters. Does that mean that they will all be hit with the same damage? No. And because we saw Juliet + Hynhe defending against it without being enveloped in the whole nuke, I don't see why it would be wrong to say they didn't get damaged by the full force of the attack. The strong points are obviously at the center of the nuke. The weak points would be anywhere near the edges.
We'll see how the anime shows this. If I'm wrong, I will concede.
Having Spriggan tiered durability is extraordinarly high durability. More than Erza, Gray, Mira, Natsu - going on current feats. Likely more than Jellal and likely level with Laxus.
No I'm not equating the subordinates like that. I just don't really see someone like Juliet to be a class above someone like Bakel. Neinhart had complete fodders compared to the rest. I don't see any reason for Irene's to be better because she's a better Spriggan.
Ajeel doesn't have "Spriggan-Tier Durability". He is Spriggan-Tier only because of his other stats (like attack power) that make up for his defense. I don't remember anybody saying Neinhart had "Spriggan-Tier Durability" (except me) despite him being a Spriggan. It's clear Ajeel is the weakest in defense. Otherwise, he wouldn't need to use his Sand Body so often.
That's fine. But you're telling me that Mira can increase the intensity of her nukes, without really any reason why. I'm keeping it nuke specific, so there's no need to compare Erza; I prefer to compare like with like. I don't think there is any denying that Miralegria's attacks >> SS Mira's nukes. The nukes will tickle Ajeel, if they're like the one used against Irene's lackeys.
Where and when did Laxus charge said nuke?
That's okay, then she'd disperse the sand for only seconds, have to summon Miralegria, and have Ajeel frozen stiff essentially.
Fair enough. I won't debate that Mirajane can increase the power of her nukes because it isn't proven (although I still don't see why not). It doesn't matter though. The chance that Mirajane will use her nukes as a finishing move is very unlikely. She'll just use it to scatter the sand and make Ajeel visible. Then he will be killed by Alegria Soul.
It wasn't said that Laxus charged his nuke but there is reason to believe so. His nuke against Wahl was pitiful. There was absolutely no attack potency or AoE. Meanwhile, the one against Ajeel was shown to have a high destructive capacity. So if the nukes were not charged, why were they different?
But it's true. Do you ever picture Natsu losing in a fight? I'm not even a hater when it comes to Natsu. He is a very well written character but at the same time, I won't be biased and tell the whole world that Natsu has no plot armor, he's just strong.
No, the reason it came back is because thats what sandstorms do. You could blow a large portion of a sand storm away but its still going to come blowing back.
But if you look at how Erza blew the sand away, she didn't even blow it enough to be able to see Ajeel. That is what I'm saying. Mirajane would. It doesn't matter if the sand comes back. At least Ajeel will be clearly visible for her to land an attack on him.
Based on Mira being able to slam Juliet and Heine into the ground (a feat Ajeel could easily replicate)? Yeah no. This is what I mean when I say Miras Alegria form doesn't have enough feats, benefit of the doubt only goes so far.
Ajeel's durability is nothing compared to the other Spriggans. Meanwhile, Juliet + Hynhe are the strongest of all the "lackeys". Mirajane can surely do the same to Ajeel although it would probably take a few attempts to put him down.
I thought he can assimilate with sand? So that he becomes invulnerable? Oh wait, he can't evade it. Why? Probably because he was in critical condition.
This is not debatable my friend, there is a set definition for what critical condition means and yours ain't it.
GW Hospital defines critical condition as "uncertain prognosis, vital signs are unstable or abnormal, there are major complications, and death may be imminent.
You could even look up critical condition in google images, every single picture you will find it that of a person unconscious with a bunch of machines strapped to their person, trying to keep them alive. If you can still fight, you are nowhere near critical condition.
If we're talking about real life then I would agree with you. As far as the manga goes, critical condition can be defined in many ways. The reason why real life is so different is because internal injuries are what kills us. The damage on the outside is usually not problem. So going back to the manga, there is no such thing as internal injuries. Ajeel can get slammed for eternity and still wouldn't have damages to the brain, lungs, etc.
Gajeel wouldn't have even been able to hit Bradman had the only thing he gained been the ability to hit Bradman (ironically). Bradman matched him strength and was arguably even faster. DF gave Gajeel the necessary physical stats to stomp Bradman. Even if Gajeel still couldn't hit Bradman he could have probably just ended it with a roar.
No it was't. Torafusas hardened skin >>> any speed and strength boost that Kyouka may have gotten. Torafusa also clearly got a boost in strength, and when in Tenchi Kaimei Torafusas speed is also vastly greater (while his opponents is vastly inferior). The only reason why I would give Kyouka the edge over Torafusa is because of her ability to take away your senses.
I repeat, too many unknown variables that Hiro did not give for it to be credible evidence. I am not saying the stats given are not valid, I am saying there are things Hiro clearly did not include and thus your evidence has major holes. Did he include Torafusas hardened skin? Did he include the fact that Torafusas speed vastly increases while his opponents speed (in this case Kyouka) vastly decreases? Those two factors alone would bridge the gap in their stats, and yet he did not include them, probably for the same reason he did not include any of Franmalths souls or Saylas limiter release state. He just made basic base stats, he did not go into detail on the mechanics of each characters abilities because he did that in the manga (where it is much easier to do).
But overall, Kyōka still has the better stats. If Hiro Mashima included that Tenchi Kaimei would slow down Kyōka and make her more vulnerable, he would also include that Torafusa will be stripped of his senses and more susceptible to pain. It goes both ways and in the end it will cancel each other out. Kyōka is still stronger.
It was only trickle of blood. Not as bad as exhausting yourself when fighting another opponents. Besides, Kyōka literally had a long time to rest before she fought Erza again. The whole Alegria event took a long time. Whereas Erza went from fighting Minerva to looking for Kyōka and fighting again.
In what way? A grain of sand on the ground is NO different then a grain of sand in the air. A sandstorm is wind kicking up the sand from the ground and blowing it through the air.
A grain of sand in the air is already moving. Not to mention, it doesn't have to go up against any type of force like gravity. The sand on the ground will be compacted and obviously harder to move.
It wasn't said that Laxus charged his nuke but there is reason to believe so. His nuke against Wahl was pitiful. There was absolutely no attack potency or AoE. Meanwhile, the one against Ajeel was shown to have a high destructive capacity. So if the nukes were not charged, why were they different?
what Laxus used against Wahl wasn't a nuke. it was just a regular lightning bolt summoned from the heavens
Nuke's are getting bigger when it hits its target and the radius of explosion in general. they are not immediately big as soon as it hits. Laxus didn't charge it up. he used a regular lightning bolt against Ajeel's Death Sand and against Wahl. also, Laxus didn't wanna blow up the entire area with his nuke. he would even damage himself.
it is possible that Laxus charged the nuke but there is no proof of that. he just raised his hand, Ajeel was shocked and the nuke hit him. so we can safely assume that the nuke dropped in 3-5 seconds at most, especially because Ajeel's sand was pretty close to the ship. this attacks that I posted (nuke and regular lightning bolt) are different kind of attacks.
But how do you know that Natsu just imbued his hands with fire? Are you positive it isn't a spell? It isn't as simple as it looks. I understand what Fire Dragon Slaying Magic is. But what you're trying to prove here is far-fetched. It's like you don't believe in unnamed spell sand that every spell is named (we just don't know what they're called). Even if it was named, how do you know it isn't Fire Dragon King's Roar? See what I mean? Assumptions won't get us anywhere. I will wait until the anime comes out and proves me wrong before I concede. As of right now, I won't.
I'm possibly incorrect for saying imbuing his hands with fire is not a spell. I'll re-phrase it - from what we know about Fire DS magic, imbuing his hands with fire is not defined as a spell. I believe magic can be used without spells, like Gildarts falling over and cracking the ground is not him using a spell imo. Empyrean is a spell. However I do acknowledge that your view can be correct. But when it comes to Natsu's spell set - the magic we should know the most about this whole manga, then we can deduce a lot without words.
It's fairly easy to know if it's a FDK Roar. Hiro would tell us the first time it's used. This is essentially a fact - it's a manga long trend. When spells are first used, they get a name. After that, Hiro might have Natsu keep saying it so we know the difference, or have Natsu enter FDKM so we know.
Assumptions... this is a major part of discussing things from a manga. It's whether or not the assumptions are sensible - like me assuming Natsu used an FD roar is sensible.
Like I said I didn't attempt due to lack of evidence. I couldn't see how the fire got there, he broke the ice with it. You at least acknowledge that you're trying to use a faulty example here, ie how do you deduce something without being able to see what he's doing? If I was going through all Natsu's unnamed attacks to give them names I would omit this one. The roar on Bluenote however, I'd have more confidence with.
Alegria is technically a spell. Mirajane's Takeover Magic is her magic. Transformation is a spell... Tell me why we've never seen Mirajane use any named spell besides her transformation? The easiest answer is that she doesn't have any.
This is correct, as I mentioned. They only ever named stuff in the anime IIRC. If she doesn't have a named tech then my point about the physical attack stands - it lacks feats to be comparable to Starlight. Hype can only go so much.
Because Mirajane's MP is shown to be comparable to Natsu, Jellal, and Laxus. Like I said, Laxus has shown having high amounts of MP other ways. Tell me what Erza has that would put her on their level? She doesn't have to change the environment but her attacks/stamina doesn't show as much of an improvement in MP as the others.
Erza's combat feats weren't that impressive either. He intelligence was what pulled her though her battle with Ajeel.
No it's not - well there's isn't any reason to think Mira's comparable to those 3 yet. What has she done to get there? She's never been above Erza at all in the manga, so it's safe to assume she's not now either. She would be if she presented with evidence demonstrating such. Natsu has never been close to Jellal in MP, but after his comeback from the timeskip, his feats suggest he's comparable or not far off Jellal. Erza on the other hand has combat feats which are above Mira's. I'm fine with saying Mira's comparable to Erza, but not above.
Intelligence is part of a battle, and this has been with Erza all series. Intelligence wouldn't assist Mira in a battle against Ajeel? Or is she strong enough that intel is a non-factor?
The point of a nuke is to be able to fodderize many, many targets. Just like how Natsu destroyed more than 1,000 Alvarez Troops. AoE is also useful when going up against a group of characters. Does that mean that they will all be hit with the same damage? No. And because we saw Juliet + Hynhe defending against it without being enveloped in the whole nuke, I don't see why it would be wrong to say they didn't get damaged by the full force of the attack. The strong points are obviously at the center of the nuke. The weak points would be anywhere near the edges.
We'll see how the anime shows this. If I'm wrong, I will concede.
The discrepancy here is Ajeel isn't a fodder like the Alvarez troops or Juliet/Hynhe.
I think when you're in a nuke, you're in it. The difference is the time you've been in the nuke, and if it has expanded were you hit with the more concentrated AoE (these 2 points go hand in hand). E.g The sword girls were blasted from Mira at close range when the AoE was small, before it expanded. This shows that they endured the nuke from almost the instant it was made. Secondly nukes usually expand. So for Mira's nuke, being in the first/small AoE means it's likely more concentrated. This is consistent with Sema and Laxus' nuke. For Natsu's roar, Bluenote was also in the first and smaller AoE of the roar, meaning he copped it pretty badly.
Well I can say maybe twice more at most. Any more than that and we'd need evidence. It's like saying Jellal's GC can oneshot Laxus or Irene because it can oneshot Neinhart. It gets to a point where evidence is required to say such a thing.
Ajeel doesn't have "Spriggan-Tier Durability". He is Spriggan-Tier only because of his other stats (like attack power) that make up for his defense. I don't remember anybody saying Neinhart had "Spriggan-Tier Durability" (except me) despite him being a Spriggan. It's clear Ajeel is the weakest in defense. Otherwise, he wouldn't need to use his Sand Body so often.
Neinhart doesn't have feats. I think his durability is probably around the same as Jacobs as an assumption. I'd say Ajeel's is definitely at Jacobs level or perhaps slightly more. If someone has a defensive hax and doesn't use it, then I'd consider them stupid. Ajeel's durability is above all in the guild, except maybe Laxus.
It wasn't said that Laxus charged his nuke but there is reason to believe so. His nuke against Wahl was pitiful. There was absolutely no attack potency or AoE. Meanwhile, the one against Ajeel was shown to have a high destructive capacity. So if the nukes were not charged, why were they different?
He used a lightning bolt against Wahl, do you expect him to nuke the town? Bolt's don't have high AoE, but they're almost a guaranteed hit. There is no potency because Wahl is immune to lightning. He used this bolt to stop Ajeel's Sands of Death.
But it's true. Do you ever picture Natsu losing in a fight? I'm not even a hater when it comes to Natsu. He is a very well written character but at the same time, I won't be biased and tell the whole world that Natsu has no plot armor, he's just strong.
I don't really expect FT members to lose when it's a to-the-death type battle. Natsu gets more power ups, but in the context of endurance plot armour is a null argument imo. He is this way, a guy who can keep getting up, the whole manga it's been like that.
He can travel through the sand, he basically has omnipresence within Sand World.
But if you look at how Erza blew the sand away, she didn't even blow it enough to be able to see Ajeel. That is what I'm saying. Mirajane would. It doesn't matter if the sand comes back. At least Ajeel will be clearly visible for her to land an attack on him.
Dude. Ajeel was assimilated into the sand, unless she blew the whole damn sand storm away there wouldn't be anyway to see Ajeel. I thought you said you understood that Ajeel assimilates into the sand, why are you going back to arguing as if he's just going to be standing around waiting to get hit? We won't get anywhere like this.
Ajeel's durability is nothing compared to the other Spriggans. Meanwhile, Juliet + Hynhe are the strongest of all the "lackeys". Mirajane can surely do the same to Ajeel although it would probably take a few attempts to put him down.
Ajeels durability is just as impressive as that of the other Spriggan. Its superior to Neinharts, Brandishes and Jacobs and roughly equal to Serenas and DiMarias. Wahl being the only one with arguably superior durability. She surely can't do the same because Ajeel >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Heine and Juliet in durability, speed and physical strength (and everything else but thats besides the point). Frankly I don't see why Ajeel cannot do exactly what Alegria Mira did to Heine and Juliet.
I thought he can assimilate with sand? So that he becomes invulnerable? Oh wait, he can't evade it. Why? Probably because he was in critical condition.
Did you see any sand around him at that moment? Because I sure didn't.
If we're talking about real life then I would agree with you. As far as the manga goes, critical condition can be defined in many ways. The reason why real life is so different is because internal injuries are what kills us. The damage on the outside is usually not problem. So going back to the manga, there is no such thing as internal injuries. Ajeel can get slammed for eternity and still wouldn't have damages to the brain, lungs, etc.
What on earthland you talking about? Since when did characters have indestructible insides? Laxus should have been dead because his insides were damaged by the MBP, this was what Wahl stated before the fight even began.
I disagree. If Torafusa given these advantages, so would Kyōka.
What advantages? Are you telling me that Kyouka should also have hardened skin because Torafusa does? I'm not really following here. Torafusa said he has the best defence of all the demon gates.
But overall, Kyōka still has the better stats. If Hiro Mashima included that Tenchi Kaimei would slow down Kyōka and make her more vulnerable, he would also include that Torafusa will be stripped of his senses and more susceptible to pain. It goes both ways and in the end it will cancel each other out. Kyōka is still stronger.
It really doesn't cancel each other out. Torafusas opponents were far more incapable of fighting then Erza was against Kyouka. Not being able to use your speed while slowly being withered away by poison and having the potential of drowning is more dangerous then having your senses stripped away in this manga. Gajeel has nigh immunity to the MBP poison, can forcibly close his mouth to prevent drowning and had shadow body for maneuverability within the water to match Torafusas, despite all those counters he STILL needed a huge power-up to defeat Torafusa. No matter how you spin it, Torafusa is easily in the same level of impressiveness as Kyouka and is arguably even better against certain opponents (like Kagura and Erza).
It was only trickle of blood. Not as bad as exhausting yourself when fighting another opponents. Besides, Kyōka literally had a long time to rest before she fought Erza again. The whole Alegria event took a long time. Whereas Erza went from fighting Minerva to looking for Kyōka and fighting again.
Dude, Kyouka was screaming in pain. The same chick that can alter pain tolerance. No matter how you spin the situation she was dealt extensive damage. Erza wasn't overly exhausted against Minerva.
I know that only heat can evaporate water but was it the evaporation like Natsu's? Or was it different?
Not literally the exact same as Natsus. But if it was evaporation that she had done, then it was certainly because of the heat of her energy.
A grain of sand in the air is already moving. Not to mention, it doesn't have to go up against any type of force like gravity. The sand on the ground will be compacted and obviously harder to move.
And? Sand is sand bro. If you cannot affect a grain of sand on the ground then you wont affect a grain of sand in the air. Need I remind you that the grain in the air in this case is infused with magic (therefore obviously more powerful) and the density of the sand in the air from SW is no joke either.
what Laxus used against Wahl wasn't a nuke. it was just a regular lightning bolt summoned from the heavens
Nuke's are getting bigger when it hits its target and the radius of explosion in general. they are not immediately big as soon as it hits. Laxus didn't charge it up. he used a regular lightning bolt against Ajeel's Death Sand and against Wahl. also, Laxus didn't wanna blow up the entire area with his nuke. he would even damage himself.
it is possible that Laxus charged the nuke but there is no proof of that. he just raised his hand, Ajeel was shocked and the nuke hit him. so we can safely assume that the nuke dropped in 3-5 seconds at most, especially because Ajeel's sand was pretty close to the ship. this attacks that I posted (nuke and regular lightning bolt) are different kind of attacks.
You're correct. My bad. I guess it was just a regular lightning bolt that was used against Wahl.
But about Laxus charging his nuke... There was a panel of him (that you posted) where we can clearly see Laxus' hands imbued with lightning. After that, we see Ajeel's face glowing from the attack. Only then did the nuke actually hit. So I still don't see how it would be considered wrong to say that the nuke was charged. What was shown at least supports it and somewhat implies it. At the end of the day, we both have different opinions so you may very will be right here too. I just won't accept it until the anime proves me wrong.
I'm possibly incorrect for saying imbuing his hands with fire is not a spell. I'll re-phrase it - from what we know about Fire DS magic, imbuing his hands with fire is not defined as a spell. I believe magic can be used without spells, like Gildarts falling over and cracking the ground is not him using a spell imo. Empyrean is a spell. However I do acknowledge that your view can be correct. But when it comes to Natsu's spell set - the magic we should know the most about this whole manga, then we can deduce a lot without words.
It's fairly easy to know if it's a FDK Roar. Hiro would tell us the first time it's used. This is essentially a fact - it's a manga long trend. When spells are first used, they get a name. After that, Hiro might have Natsu keep saying it so we know the difference, or have Natsu enter FDKM so we know.
Assumptions... this is a major part of discussing things from a manga. It's whether or not the assumptions are sensible - like me assuming Natsu used an FD roar is sensible.
Like I said I didn't attempt due to lack of evidence. I couldn't see how the fire got there, he broke the ice with it. You at least acknowledge that you're trying to use a faulty example here, ie how do you deduce something without being able to see what he's doing? If I was going through all Natsu's unnamed attacks to give them names I would omit this one. The roar on Bluenote however, I'd have more confidence with.
Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying here. How is there lack of evidence with Gray's spell? We can clearly see him using it. We just don't know the name of it.
This is correct, as I mentioned. They only ever named stuff in the anime IIRC. If she doesn't have a named tech then my point about the physical attack stands - it lacks feats to be comparable to Starlight. Hype can only go so much.
No it's not - well there's isn't any reason to think Mira's comparable to those 3 yet. What has she done to get there? She's never been above Erza at all in the manga, so it's safe to assume she's not now either. She would be if she presented with evidence demonstrating such. Natsu has never been close to Jellal in MP, but after his comeback from the timeskip, his feats suggest he's comparable or not far off Jellal. Erza on the other hand has combat feats which are above Mira's. I'm fine with saying Mira's comparable to Erza, but not above.
Intelligence is part of a battle, and this has been with Erza all series. Intelligence wouldn't assist Mira in a battle against Ajeel? Or is she strong enough that intel is a non-factor?
Well since the beginning of this argument, all I asked was that people acknowledge that Mirajane is comparable to Erza (which did not happen). I'm not here to prove that Mirajane is stronger than Erza. But if we go by feats, Mirajane should have MP comparable to Natsu, Jellal, and Laxus. I believe Erza is on their level as well but it wasn't actually shown. Note that I'm only talking about MP here. Never would I say Mirajane or Erza are comparable to Natsu, Laxus, and Jellal overall.
I agree that Intellience is part of a character's power to win. I wouldn't downplay Erza in this. Also, I might want to add that the sole reason as to why Erza needed to be smart to win her fight is because she was a poor match-up against Ajeel. I'm not saying Mirajane is stronger but she will not be at any sort of disadvantages. Hence, why I se Erza and Mirajane as equals.
The discrepancy here is Ajeel isn't a fodder like the Alvarez troops or Juliet/Hynhe.
I think when you're in a nuke, you're in it. The difference is the time you've been in the nuke, and if it has expanded were you hit with the more concentrated AoE (these 2 points go hand in hand). E.g The sword girls were blasted from Mira at close range when the AoE was small, before it expanded. This shows that they endured the nuke from almost the instant it was made. Secondly nukes usually expand. So for Mira's nuke, being in the first/small AoE means it's likely more concentrated. This is consistent with Sema and Laxus' nuke. For Natsu's roar, Bluenote was also in the first and smaller AoE of the roar, meaning he copped it pretty badly.
I agree Ajeel isn't fodder but neither are Juliet + Hynhe. Would Ajeel be able to defeat them together? Sure. Difficulty? Medium Difficulty. Why? Because Ajeel has more attack power and advantages over them like versatility. But defense? No. If Ajeel has more defense than Juliet + Hynhe, it wouldn't be by a significant margin based on what was shown.
Well I can say maybe twice more at most. Any more than that and we'd need evidence. It's like saying Jellal's GC can oneshot Laxus or Irene because it can oneshot Neinhart. It gets to a point where evidence is required to say such a thing.
Neinhart doesn't have feats. I think his durability is probably around the same as Jacobs as an assumption. I'd say Ajeel's is definitely at Jacobs level or perhaps slightly more. If someone has a defensive hax and doesn't use it, then I'd consider them stupid. Ajeel's durability is above all in the guild, except maybe Laxus.
I would say Jacob has higher durability than both Ajeel and Neinhart. He received blows from Makarov, Natsu, and Lucy with minimal damage. Ajeel, on the other hand, was damaged by Erza. Considering she is below the likes of Natsu and Jellal, Ajeel would only have Neinhart's durability at most. Even then, Neinhart was taken out by one of Jellal's better spells (while he was angry). So he might even have better durability than Ajeel, although I will admit he was one-shotted.
All in all, I wouldn't say Ajeel's and Neinhart's durability are bad, but they're definitely the lowest among the Spriggan 12. Like I said, without Sand Body, Ajeel doesn't have anything else to rely on.
He used a lightning bolt against Wahl, do you expect him to nuke the town? Bolt's don't have high AoE, but they're almost a guaranteed hit. There is no potency because Wahl is immune to lightning. He used this bolt to stop Ajeel's Sands of Death.
I don't really expect FT members to lose when it's a to-the-death type battle. Natsu gets more power ups, but in the context of endurance plot armour is a null argument imo. He is this way, a guy who can keep getting up, the whole manga it's been like that.
We've never seen Natsu lose due to fatigue and too much damage though. Let me give you a few examples.
Erza: She immediately collapsed after fighting Ajeel and fell from the sky. Gray: He lost to Bickslow and couldn't win the fight for Fairy Tail. Lucy: Beaten up by Minerva to the point she couldn't move.
Natsu: Lost to Fukuro? That was obviously a gag. Fell down after fighting Jellal? Nope, got back up to save Erza. Collapsed after fighting Zancrow and needed Wendy to...? Nope, Wendy's healing conveniently didn't work and Natsu had to get up by himself.
The point here is that Natsu will never be put down and stay down. Hiro Mashima obviously has to make him invincible when it comes to plot. Which is why he has the most plot armor. Endurance for him is a non-factor because he can endure anything. It shouldn't really be that hard to admit something obvious like this.
Anyways, we obviously aren't getting anywhere. This conversation has gone on long enough and we're honestly just wasting each other's time. You can have the last word.
Dude. Ajeel was assimilated into the sand, unless she blew the whole damn sand storm away there wouldn't be anyway to see Ajeel. I thought you said you understood that Ajeel assimilates into the sand, why are you going back to arguing as if he's just going to be standing around waiting to get hit? We won't get anywhere like this.
Why would she have to blow away the whole sandstorm to see Ajeel? He isn't outside of it. His presence is still inside and he is still vulnerable. To say he assimilates into the sand is not much different from Juvia in the water.
Ajeels durability is just as impressive as that of the other Spriggan. Its superior to Neinharts, Brandishes and Jacobs and roughly equal to Serenas and DiMarias. Wahl being the only one with arguably superior durability. She surely can't do the same because Ajeel >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Heine and Juliet in durability, speed and physical strength (and everything else but thats besides the point). Frankly I don't see why Ajeel cannot do exactly what Alegria Mira did to Heine and Juliet.
I disagree. Ajeel hasn't shown any durability feats to be on par with Dimaria or God Serena, let alone being superior to Brandish, Jacob, and Neinhart.
But you keep claiming that Ajeel can create make a sandstorm come back pretty quickly. So I don't see what stops him from doing that unless he couldn't have.
What on earthland you talking about? Since when did characters have indestructible insides? Laxus should have been dead because his insides were damaged by the MBP, this was what Wahl stated before the fight even began.
All I'm saying is that the definition of "critical condition" in real life obviously is not the same when we're discussing a manga. Laxus' body also didn't react to the MBP's the same way as it would in real life. Keep in mind that someone with a condition like a heart attack wouldn't be standing.
What advantages? Are you telling me that Kyouka should also have hardened skin because Torafusa does? I'm not really following here. Torafusa said he has the best defence of all the demon gates.
No, I'm saying that if Torafusa's defense increases from his skin hardening, Kyōka would be given a boost in attack power to compensate for it. Both of their Etherious forms are different, but it should be clear which one is stronger. The attack penetration would still be same in the end. Kyōka has one of the best attacks of all the demon gates too.
It really doesn't cancel each other out. Torafusas opponents were far more incapable of fighting then Erza was against Kyouka. Not being able to use your speed while slowly being withered away by poison and having the potential of drowning is more dangerous then having your senses stripped away in this manga. Gajeel has nigh immunity to the MBP poison, can forcibly close his mouth to prevent drowning and had shadow body for maneuverability within the water to match Torafusas, despite all those counters he STILL needed a huge power-up to defeat Torafusa. No matter how you spin it, Torafusa is easily in the same level of impressiveness as Kyouka and is arguably even better against certain opponents (like Kagura and Erza).
But you also have to take into account that Gajeel was a lot weaker than Erza which is why he was incapable of beating him. It was to the point Gajeel needed Steel just to break through Torafusa's defense.Erza was by far the strongest in Tartaros besides DeS Gray and DF Natsu. But if we were to take their base forms, Erza would be way more powerful than them. Note that Gajeel is one the same level as Base/LFD Natsu.
Gajeel would have drowned if it weren't for Levy. So I wouldn't say he has any advantage when it comes to Tenchi Kaimei. If anything, he was lucky. As for his ISD mode, Erza also has abilities that allows her to move through water easily like Sea Empress Armor. To imply that only characters with shadow form can keep up with Torafusa is pretty baseless. Everyone has their own way of countering another's magic.
Dude, Kyouka was screaming in pain. The same chick that can alter pain tolerance. No matter how you spin the situation she was dealt extensive damage. Erza wasn't overly exhausted against Minerva.
Erza was still worse compared to Kyōka. There is really no denying here. Kyōka got a much longer time to rest while Erza went from fighting Minerva to Kyōka in just a few chapters.
And? Sand is sand bro. If you cannot affect a grain of sand on the ground then you wont affect a grain of sand in the air. Need I remind you that the grain in the air in this case is infused with magic (therefore obviously more powerful) and the density of the sand in the air from SW is no joke either.
No, sand that is stationary and sand that is moving is different. It should be common sense that moving something that is already moving is a lot easier than moving something that is not moving. Like I said before, even if the sand is infused with magic, it won't be to the point that Mirajane can't move it. And considering Erza moved with with a simple swipe of her hand, Mirajane would easily be able to replicate that feat with a bigger AoE.
Anyways, we obviously aren't getting anywhere. This conversation has gone on long enough and we're honestly just wasting each other's time. You can have the last word.
You're correct. My bad. I guess it was just a regular lightning bolt that was used against Wahl.
But about Laxus charging his nuke... There was a panel of him (that you posted) where we can clearly see Laxus' hands imbued with lightning. After that, we see Ajeel's face glowing from the attack. Only then did the nuke actually hit. So I still don't see how it would be considered wrong to say that the nuke was charged. What was shown at least supports it and somewhat implies it. At the end of the day, we both have different opinions so you may very will be right here too. I just won't accept it until the anime proves me wrong.
Azir low-Mid difficulty. I like Mirajane but she is seriously overrated.
First off Even if Mirajane flys she will still have to deal with Azir flying monsters. So Mirajane flying in the air want help her negate Azir assaults at all.
Not to mention his sand dries up moisture and was able to easy turn Erza's swords into Sand.
Then he could make things like:
Whose physical feats are comparable to Satan Soul Algeria:
If it came down to a physcial altercation Mirajane would struggle against one Golem unless she she uses BSS to nuke it same with the sand monsters. This is all while Mirajane would have to deal with Azir hitting her with Sand needles:
And Azir would basically sap the strength out of Mirajane.
Also while Azir has Sandworld he can appear anywhere within the sand. His reaction speed is also greater than Mirajanes. The only time Erza was able to gain a hit on him is when he was distracted. Even Bisca only got a hit on Azir due to him being distracted.
The only form in which Mirajane could even hold out against Azir in his her BSS form. Her other forms like Sitri and Algeria are physical. Physical attacks would work against Azir. BSS nukes would be blocked with 1 hand just like Azir did with Jupiter.
First off Even if Mirajane flys she will still have to deal with Azir flying monsters. So Mirajane flying in the air want help her negate Azir assaults at all.
First of all, the flying sand monsters are arguably his weakest attacks. When I say she negates Ajeel's attacks, I mean the deadly ones like Sands of Death, Ant Lion's Pit, etc. You do realize that these "sand monsters" were one-shotted by Lucy's celestial spirit, right? Not so difficult for Mirajane considering she is a lot stronger than Lucy.
Erza's swords turning into sand will have no impact on Mirajane. She utilizes magic as her main ability, not physical attacks like Erza. As for Ajeel drying up the moisture of a human body, this is considering he can actually grab them. Mirajane is faster than Ajeel, let alone she can fly.
Keep in mind this attack is Ground-Based. These sort of spells are useless against Mirajane just like how they were useless against Erza (he didn't use it because they were fighting on an airship).
If it came down to a physcial altercation Mirajane would struggle against one Golem unless she she uses BSS to nuke it same with the sand monsters. This is all while Mirajane would have to deal with Azir hitting her with Sand needles:
Mirajane doesn't need to nuke the golem or the monsters (although she could with just one attack). Simply evading it will work. As for the "sand needles"... That attack is a completely useless. If Erza can get back up after being hit by it, so can Mirajane. I don't need to emphasize that she can fly (once again).
No he can't. He was only able to do it to Erza because she was caught by surprise. Mirajane wouldn't be in the same situation because she has more AoE than Erza which would enable her to disperse Ajeel's sandstorm. At that point, he wouldn't have anywhere to hide and Mirajane would have a clear shot at him. Besides, he does not have any speed whatsoever to be able to catch up with Mirajane.
Also while Azir has Sandworld he can appear anywhere within the sand. His reaction speed is also greater than Mirajanes. The only time Erza was able to gain a hit on him is when he was distracted. Even Bisca only got a hit on Azir due to him being distracted.
Appearing anywhere in the sand doesn't really matter. If he doesn't appear near Mirajane, he can't damage her. And if he gets close enough to attack her, she'll see him. Just like Juvia. She can appear anywhere in water but that doesn't necessarily give her an advantage. Ajeel having a greater reaction speed compared to Mirajane is baseless. He couldn't even dodge a punch from Natsu.
The only form in which Mirajane could even hold out against Azir in his her BSS form. Her other forms like Sitri and Algeria are physical. Physical attacks would work against Azir. BSS nukes would be blocked with 1 hand just like Azir did with Jupiter.
Physical attacks (that are not materialistic) would work. Mirajane can use her hands to slam Ajeel into the ground, just like how Natsu punched Ajeel. The ones that Ajeel can turn into sand are weapons like swords, spears, arrows, etc. Ajeel never blocked the Jupiter Cannon. He was destroyed by it. Mirajane's nukes would do the same.
The way you paint the picture, it seems like Ajeel is invincible. Tell me, who do you think can beat him that is in Fairy Tail? I will be using your arguments to counter that character just to show how utterly ridiculous it is.
First of all, the flying sand monsters are arguably his weakest attacks. When I say she negates Ajeel's attacks, I mean the deadly ones like Sands of Death, Ant Lion's Pit, etc. You do realize that these "sand monsters" were one-shotted by Lucy's celestial spirit, right? Not so difficult for Mirajane considering she is a lot stronger than Lucy.
Erza's swords turning into sand will have no impact on Mirajane. She utilizes magic as her main ability, not physical attacks like Erza. As for Ajeel drying up the moisture of a human body, this is considering he can actually grab them. Mirajane is faster than Ajeel, let alone she can fly.
He doesn't have to grab Mirajane as he was drying Erza up before that. Go reread the chapters. On top of that his reaction speed was faster than Erza's. Mirajane's reaction speed isn't faster than Erza's.
Keep in mind this attack is Ground-Based. These sort of spells are useless against Mirajane just like how they were useless against Erza (he didn't use it because they were fighting on an airship).
Not even close. Like I said, Sand Golem won't even be able to touch Mirajane.
Mirajane doesn't need to nuke the golem or the monsters (although she could with just one attack). Simply evading it will work. As for the "sand needles"... That attack is a completely useless. If Erza can get back up after being hit by it, so can Mirajane. I don't need to emphasize that she can fly (once again).
No he can't. He was only able to do it to Erza because she was caught by surprise. Mirajane wouldn't be in the same situation because she has more AoE than Erza which would enable her to disperse Ajeel's sandstorm. At that point, he wouldn't have anywhere to hide and Mirajane would have a clear shot at him. Besides, he does not have any speed whatsoever to be able to catch up with Mirajane.
Appearing anywhere in the sand doesn't really matter. If he doesn't appear near Mirajane, he can't damage her. And if he gets close enough to attack her, she'll see him. Just like Juvia. She can appear anywhere in water but that doesn't necessarily give her an advantage. Ajeel having a greater reaction speed compared to Mirajane is baseless. He couldn't even dodge a punch from Natsu.
Physical attacks (that are not materialistic) would work. Mirajane can use her hands to slam Ajeel into the ground, just like how Natsu punched Ajeel. The ones that Ajeel can turn into sand are weapons like swords, spears, arrows, etc. Ajeel never blocked the Jupiter Cannon. He was destroyed by it. Mirajane's nukes would do the same.
The way you paint the picture, it seems like Ajeel is invincible. Tell me, who do you think can beat him that is in Fairy Tail? I will be using your arguments to counter that character just to show how utterly ridiculous it is.
Natsu, Laxus, Jellal, Nakagami Erza, etc but not Mirajane who had to use her strongest Takeover to take out 2 fodder girls. You are overrating Mirajane to the extreme.
He doesn't have to grab Mirajane as he was drying Erza up before that. Go reread the chapters. On top of that his reaction speed was faster than Erza's. Mirajane's reaction speed isn't faster than Erza's.
You mean when the sand was enveloping Erza? That did nothing except draining a little bit of energy from her. This was while Erza was unable to use magic too. The moment she was able to use requip again, she blew it away with Wind's God Armor. And like I keep saying, Mirajane will be able to do that easily. The only dangerous attack from Ajeel is when he chokes and sucks the moisture out of you directly.
Ajeel wasn't faster than Natsu and Mirajane is certainly at his level when it comes to reaction speed.
Natsu, Laxus, Jellal, Nakagami Erza, etc but not Mirajane who had to use her strongest Takeover to take out 2 fodder girls. You are overrating Mirajane to the extreme.[/spoiler]
Using your argument, Natsu wouldn't be able to beat Ajeel because he has better reaction speed. On the other hand, Laxus would be stomped by a Flying Sand Golem. Meanwhile, Jellal would have no way of escaping Sand World, so Ajeel will just suck the moisture out of him. And Nakagami Erza? Well, assuming that she doesn't get any assistance from the Jupiter Cannon, Ajeel would choke her to death. See how illogical this is?
Mira would have to catch Ajeel off-guard in order to put a scratch on him, let alone defeat him, & since that's a nigh-impossible task for her; she's doomed.
Ajeel is faster, stronger, more destructive, a greater tank, more tricky to deal with & he has superior stamina as well as mana. Even with the stipulation heavily favouring Mira, she simply can't win. Ajeel is literately at least a tier or 2 above her.
