Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

[ninjabot]

Of course they didn't. I never said they made them go crazy. They exploited people who were very vulnerable due to trauma they faced. People having a hard time controlling their emotions? Please, point me to where that was established. It's not like it was easy to manipulate these people either. They were made to believe that there was merit to their actions. That's precisely why it's called manipulation.

They were vulnerable due to the trauma that they faced awakening a power in them that makes it increasingly hard to bounce back from emotional turmoil. And yes, it was easy to manipulate these people if we're in fact comparing them to non-Sharingan wielding people (which we should be). The disconnect here is that you, for whatever reason, seem to believe that you can either (exclusively):

1: Manipulate someone based on trauma they faced
or
2: Manipulate someone's likelihood to lose control of their emotions thanks to the Sharingan's special chakra and it's effect on their brain

...without the slightest ability to prove that it can't be both, or that the second one is made up. I'm claiming it absolutely IS both thanks to the Sharingan manifesting thanks to this trauma in the first place.

Perfect. We're finally making headway.

No, we really aren't. See:

The bolded is the issue. It's fine if you want to believe the curse is the reason for that but don't paint it as fact stated in the manga. Also BZ clearly stated he approached both Senju and Uchiha.

Stated in the manga=/=supported by the manga for one. That's an important distinction no one is acknowledging. Secondly, like above, using a manipulative person as proof that someone's emotions aren't affected by a curse that makes them easily manipulated by emotion doesn't work as it not only fails to disprove anything, most of the arguments that could be made in favor of it only strengthen the other person's claim.

Having someone there to exploit your emotions doesn't mean you don't also have a curse that's responsible for making your emotions easily exploited.

As for approaching the Senju as well, that once again proves my claim: how many Senju have resorted to Madara, Sasuke, or Obito class world razing strategies? Even with the longtime rivalry with the Uchiha they STILL took in other clans under their banner where as the Uchiha didn't.

Tobirama treated them all like shit, but attempted to avoid genocide at least. Danzou isn't a Senju, but he's the closest thing to a Sasuke or Madara without being an Uchiha, yet his decisions weren't controlled by emotion: he thought he was being practical. Tobirama did too. Nothing either of them ever screamed in defiance ever sounded the slightest bit like Sasuke's claim that "Konoha should burn for living peacefully while my brother was living through hell" or something of the sort. It's also worth mentioning that Hashirama and all of his siblings were being taught the same life lessons that Madara was being taught by HIS father.

 

[Holt]

Here's the issue. Tobirama stated it as fact. Just as the existence of the transmigrants was stated as fact. The Hokages were brought back for the expressed purpose of providing clarification and background, they provided it. Hashirama provided his past with Madara, Sarutobi provided further backstory on Itachi, Tobirama explained an aspect of the Uchiha Clan. They gave us a brain backdrop, the manga's way of indicating sciecnce . When he provided it, Hashirama even added an anecdote to follow it up. There wasn't a shred of doubt expressed. It remained unchallenged for the entirety of the manga. The name of the chapter was indicative of it, despite the explanation only taking up two pages. In the course of the manga, it's just another detail. Somehow what seems to be lost in this is that arguing against the curse is contradicting what the manga left us with. And the only argument for that is that Tobirama didn't like the Uchiha, over and over again, in so many ways. And that just doesn't cut it.

If you read my post, I didn't dispute the existence of a curse. What I said was that the interpretation of the curse and its effect aren't valid. The curse doesn't affect the mentality in the way it's been proposed repeatedly in this thread. Like I said Tobriama started his explanation by mentioning the fact that nothing happens until trauma happens and goes further to state that the effect of this is that it grants powers. I fail to see how it points to irrational behavior or illogical decisions/actions. Also, I never once mentioned Tobirama's bias. That frankly put, has nothing to do with this.

 

[Impossibility]

1. We have seen and know of more Uchiha who have awakened the Sharigan than those who have not. Almost every named Uchiha in the manga has a Sharigan, with panels of groups of nameless Uchiha showing in during the waring states period (the same period Tobirama claims they all were going crazy).

Which literally has nothing to do with what you just said because only one of those individuals was alive during the event you pointed to....Madara. As for the groups of nameless Uchiha during the warring states period, so what? We know next to nothing about them, they're nameless Uchiha. You're now pointing to panels of random Uchiha as indicators of what? I don't think anyone is disputing that the clan existed.

2. If they sided with Hashirama for their own survival it shows they were thinking rationally and weren't crazy like Tobirama claimed they were. This goes directly against the claims that Tobirama was making.

This doesn't answer in any way what this number is meant to respond to. I could literally reiterate the same question what I said above, "who knows what the remaining Sharingan users thought, or even how many were left, for that matter"?

3. These specific instances aren't mere outliers. We know of 3 confirmed Uchiha's who went crazy, and all three of them regaining their sanity at one point or another. We also know of 3 who didn't go crazy despite suffering. Tobirama's vague response that "I've seen this countless times" doesn't hold water, again, with the entire clan minus Madara siding with Hashirama. Then we have no known instances of insanity sans Obito and Sasuke (both of who regained control, and both of whom were traumatized and heavily manipulated).

Two out of six are transmigrants, one of whom walked around with a Cursed Seal, the other with a Rinnegan. Another was fused with another conscious entity and shared his eye. These seem a bit off the beaten path. Of the remaining three, two were heralded as geniuses, one killed himself, the other killed his entire clan. And of course then we have our upstanding citizen. Is this seriously the sample you want to run with? No.

The manga has given us enough reason to be think that Tobirama was simply wrong. The only reasons anyone can give to believe him so far is "because he's Tobirama". The same argument against me not knowing his methods works both ways. How can we support his conclusions if we have no idea how he came to them?

And yet, the basis of your argument over and over has been Tobirama is biased and we don't have enough information.

The "curse" he said turned the Uchiha into mindless savages hell bent on revenge who were too narrow minded to see things through logically. Yet, the Uchiha clan was never truly narrow minded as a whole, and only a select few of them ever fell so far into hatred that they caused massive harm. We also know that Black Zetsu solely responsible for tempting Indra and starting the whole concept of hatred vs. love between the Uchiha and Senju clan.

You could point out that Fugaku and his allies in the Uchiha clan were narrow minded but their concerns for their clan were actually justified via Tobirama's own discrimination against them and Danzou's wish to destroy them outright.

This doesn't contradict what Tobirama said in the slightest.

And yes, I do understand the concept of sampling. If Kagami, Shisui and Itachi are all outliers, then so are Madara, Obito and Sasuke. Without having actual examples of other people going crazy then Tobirama's words are nothing but hearsay. Because in his bias he could have failed to possibly see his own clan mates suffering the same fate, and he seemed to ignore the entire Uchiha clan siding with his brother over Madara.

So after your arguments and criticism have failed..... your final play is we shouldn't accept it because it's hearsay. Hearsay? Seriously? That's your criticism now. Almost every single detail about past events in the manga, almost everything we know about the other villages, a considerable amount about the mechanics of shinobi, kekkai genkai, jutsu..... apparently these things....."hearsay". Throw them out. I'm going with them, I'm done.

 

[Holt]

They were vulnerable due to the trauma that they faced awakening a power in them that makes it increasingly hard to bounce back from emotional turmoil. And yes, it was easy to manipulate these people if we're in fact comparing them to non-Sharingan wielding people (which we should be). The disconnect here is that you, for whatever reason, seem to believe that you can either (exclusively):

1: Manipulate someone based on trauma they faced
or
2: Manipulate someone's likelihood to lose control of their emotions thanks to the Sharingan's special chakra and it's effect on their brain

...without the slightest ability to prove that it can't be both, or that the second one is made up. I'm claiming it absolutely IS both thanks to the Sharingan manifesting thanks to this trauma in the first place.



No, we really aren't. See:



Stated in the manga=/=supported by the manga for one. That's an important distinction no one is acknowledging. Secondly, like above, using a manipulative person as proof that someone's emotions aren't affected by a curse that makes them easily manipulated by emotion doesn't work as it not only fails to disprove anything, most of the arguments that could be made in favor of it only strengthen the other person's claim.

Having someone there to exploit your emotions doesn't mean you don't also have a curse that's responsible for making your emotions easily exploited.

As for approaching the Senju as well, that once again proves my claim: how many Senju have resorted to Madara, Sasuke, or Obito class world razing strategies? Even with the longtime rivalry with the Uchiha they STILL took in other clans under their banner where as the Uchiha didn't.

Tobirama treated them all like shit, but attempted to avoid genocide at least. Danzou isn't a Senju, but he's the closest thing to a Sasuke or Madara without being an Uchiha, yet his decisions weren't controlled by emotion: he thought he was being practical. Tobirama did too. Nothing either of them ever screamed in defiance ever sounded the slightest bit like Sasuke's claim that "Konoha should burn for living peacefully while my brother was living through hell" or something of the sort. It's also worth mentioning that Hashirama and all of his siblings were being taught the same life lessons that Madara was being taught by HIS father.

Uh I'm not prepared to go into someone drawn out argument when we both know it would change little but just to highlight a few.
First, the Senju weren't covered half as much as the uchiha (and that's saying a lot considering the uchiha weren't extensively covered as well). The Senju warred against the uchiha for centuries since Indra/Ashura. Without Hashirama, they'd probably still be battling till today. Second, BZ approached both Senju and Uchiha yet his only success was Madara. If you wish to believe that the other uchiha he approached turned out like Madara (or close) then the same works for Senju. We know next to nothing about those he approached and the results other than he failed. Also, Senju don't gain power from their emotions and we know nothing about them facing trauma or not (which is an important factor, the most important).

Lastly, it isn't easy to manipulate people but it's a lot easier when they faced immense trauma. Like I said numerous times, they are vulnerable at such times and those who manipulate them didn't just give them orders to go crazy. They made them believe there was merit to the actions they took. Madara and Obito both believed Mugen Tsukuyomi was the answer. Sasuke had a goal until Itachi's death, afterwards, he decided Danzou would go for the part he played. By that time, he was too far gone in his antics. He'd faced bullshit all his life and couldn't care less. There are people who had similar mindset without it being attributed to a curse. Gaara comes to mind (he even says Sasuke has the same eyes as he does), Anbu Kakashi also comes to mind amongst others. Kakashi himself states he could just as easily have gone down the same path Obito did. Heck Naruto himself tells Sasuke their roles could have been reversed. Difference is, while both sides were vulnerable at some point, one half had help and support from others to get them through the negativity while the other half had people constantly pouring fuel to their flames.

 

[Impossibility]

If you read my post, I didn't dispute the existence of a curse. What I said was that the interpretation of the curse and its effect aren't valid. The curse doesn't affect the mentality in the way it's been proposed repeatedly in this thread. Like I said Tobriama started his explanation by mentioning the fact that nothing happens until trauma happens and goes further to state that the effect of this is that it grants powers. I fail to see how it points to irrational behavior or illogical decisions/actions.

Not directly, but in a manner. Without the effects of the curse, exactly how do you accept that the curse exists? What is it then? You're effectively trying to say Tobirama was wrong about the important bit, it's pretty hard to think that allows for the curse itself to be perceived as valid. If you ignore that aspect of the curse, it isn't really a curse anymore. It's just a handy-dandy power-up. As for how he points to the "irrational behaviour", he points out that the curse reinforces their hate, in a manner of speaking, "changes" that person, and that the Sharingan "aligns" with their "feelings" to increase their power along with the "hatred in their heart". I'm not entirely sure I'm answering the question, I'm coming to the conclusion that I probably missed your point in the first place. Tobirama's statements included the obviously overdramatic proclamations of evil, but the sentiment stood with his more detailed explanation.

Also, I never once mentioned Tobirama's bias. That frankly put, has nothing to do with this.

You're right, I apologise. Arguing back and forth with a lot of different people over a long time span and things sometimes get a bit confused.

 

[Holt]

Not directly, but in a manner. Without the effects of the curse, exactly how do you accept that the curse exists? What is it then? You're effectively trying to say Tobirama was wrong about the important bit, it's pretty hard to think that allows for the curse itself to be perceived as valid. If you ignore that aspect of the curse, it isn't really a curse anymore. It's just a handy-dandy power-up. As for how he points to the "irrational behaviour", he points out that the curse reinforces their hate, in a manner of speaking, "changes" that person, and that the Sharingan "aligns" with their "feelings" to increase their power along with the "hatred in their heart". I'm not entirely sure I'm answering the question, I'm coming to the conclusion that I probably missed your point in the first place. Tobirama's statements included the obviously overdramatic proclamations of evil, but the sentiment stood with his more detailed explanation.

Well that's my point. The curse doesn't exist as the sort of curse being implied. It's not something that causes them to make irrational behavior. The curse gives them power ups. The uchiha by nature love power (canon). The curse gives them power based on their emotions. It makes sense that they would lean towards such emotions especially when life's been shitty to them. That said, there are things which make the worst of them go crazy. The first being that they face immense trauma. Second being that they are manipulated by others. The decisions they make are based of off these.

I'm not sure if my point is getting across but basically this started when ninjabot claimed the curse was to blame for Sasuke's actions and decisions, going so far as to say he was fated to go that route. His stand has changed considerably since then but the point remains that the curse doesn't influence the decisions they take. They weren't under some sort of illusion when they decided to do what they did. We could split hairs on whether the curse does play a role in their emotional states (which it doesn't) but the point is that the curse doesn't influence their decisions nearly to the degree it's been implied to.

You're right, I apologise. Arguing back and forth with a lot of different people over a long time span and things sometimes get a bit confused.

No harm done

 

[Delbi]

Which literally has nothing to do with what you just said because only one of those individuals was alive during the event you pointed to....Madara. As for the groups of nameless Uchiha during the warring states period, so what? We know next to nothing about them, they're nameless Uchiha. You're now pointing to panels of random Uchiha as indicators of what? I don't think anyone is disputing that the clan existed.

We know the vast majority of Uchiha we have been exposed to in this manga didn't succumb to some kind of curse. We also know all but one Uchiha during the waring states period (the period right before the founding of Konoha) sided with Hashirama and used reason because they wanted peace. That doesn't sound like a clan hell bent on revenge.

This doesn't answer in any way what this number is meant to respond to. I could literally reiterate the same question what I said above, "who knows what the remaining Sharingan users thought, or even how many were left, for that matter"?

We know exactly what they thought, they chose to abandon their leader and go with Hashirama because they wanted peace, not revenge.

Two out of six are transmigrants, one of whom walked around with a Cursed Seal, the other with a Rinnegan. Another was fused with another conscious entity and shared his eye. These seem a bit off the beaten path. Of the remaining three, two were heralded as geniuses, one killed himself, the other killed his entire clan. And of course then we have our upstanding citizen. Is this seriously the sample you want to run with? No.

You want evidence then you mock the only 6 examples we are actually given in the manga.

And yet, the basis of your argument over and over has been Tobirama is biased and we don't have enough information.

The basis of my argument is that Black Zetsu, not some random curse, started the Uchiha on the path they went on. My argument is based on the fact that we have evidence of Uchiha's doing the exact opposite of what Tobirama claimed they would do. My argument is based on the fact that there are reasonable explanations as to why certain Uchiha's did what they did and they aren't based on a curse, but on mental/emotional trauma and manipulation by outside forces.

This doesn't contradict what Tobirama said in the slightest.

It doesn't? He claimed there were exceptions but still painted the majority of the Uchiha clan like they were essentially savages once they lost people, and we actually shown in Hashirama's flashbacks that wasn't the case. They were men of their times, just like Tobirama's father was. There is literally nothing different about the Uchiha clan mentally and emotionally from other ninja in the Narutoverse other than the Uchiha's became more powerful than nearly everyone else. They had good eggs, they had bad eggs, and they had people in between.

So after your arguments and criticism have failed..... your final play is we shouldn't accept it because it's hearsay. Hearsay? Seriously? That's your criticism now. Almost every single detail about past events in the manga, almost everything we know about the other villages, a considerable amount about the mechanics of shinobi, kekkai genkai, jutsu..... apparently these things....."hearsay". Throw them out. I'm going with them, I'm done.

My argument failed? According to you? O excuse me all mighty Mod Impossibility who's word is law.

And hearsay as always been my criticism. I don't believe Tobirama because there's no one supporting his argument. He even mentions weaknesses in his own argument. The only thing we do know about his experiments are that he failed to take into account Black Zetsu who was pretty important. He was also insanely biased and purposefully discriminated against the Uchiha clan. His argument is weak, extremely weak.

 

[Impossibility]

Well that's my point. The curse doesn't exist as the sort of curse being implied. It's not something that causes them to make irrational behavior. The curse gives them power ups. The uchiha by nature love power (canon). The curse gives them power based on their emotions. It makes sense that they would lean towards such emotions especially when life's been shitty to them. That said, there are things which make the worst of them go crazy. The first being that they face immense trauma. Second being that they are manipulated by others. The decisions they make are based of off these.

Now I understand what you're getting at, although I think its hard to maintain that position with the way Tobirama described it. If it was simply a power-up provided with strong emotions, there wouldn't be much reason to refer to it as a curse. Tobirama did make it clear that I changed the user and strengthened their hate. This seemed to be a pretty important aspect.

I'm not sure if my point is getting across but basically this started when ninjabot claimed the curse was to blame for Sasuke's actions and decisions, going so far as to say he was fated to go that route. His stand has changed considerably since then but the point remains that the curse doesn't influence the decisions they take. They weren't under some sort of illusion when they decided to do what they did. We could split hairs on whether the curse does play a role in their emotional states (which it doesn't) but the point is that the curse doesn't influence their decisions nearly to the degree it's been implied to.

Sasuke is a bit of a special case. He wasn't just any Uchiha, he was also a transmigrant. The manga does introduce an element of fate, but I think that stemmed from him being a reincarnation of Indra more than anything else. I believe he was affected by the curse, just as he was by Oro's seal. As for how much the curse affects their decisions, it's pretty difficult to qualify, I certainly wouldn't even be prepared to guess.

Spoiler

We know the vast majority of Uchiha we have been exposed to in this manga didn't succumb to some kind of curse. We also know all but one Uchiha during the waring states period (the period right before the founding of Konoha) sided with Hashirama and used reason because they wanted peace. That doesn't sound like a clan hell bent on revenge.


We know exactly what they thought, they chose to abandon their leader and go with Hashirama because they wanted peace, not revenge.


You want evidence then you mock the only 6 examples we are actually given in the manga.


The basis of my argument is that Black Zetsu, not some random curse, started the Uchiha on the path they went on. My argument is based on the fact that we have evidence of Uchiha's doing the exact opposite of what Tobirama claimed they would do. My argument is based on the fact that there are reasonable explanations as to why certain Uchiha's did what they did and they aren't based on a curse, but on mental/emotional trauma and manipulation by outside forces.


It doesn't? He claimed there were exceptions but still painted the majority of the Uchiha clan like they were essentially savages once they lost people, and we actually shown in Hashirama's flashbacks that wasn't the case. They were men of their times, just like Tobirama's father was. There is literally nothing different about the Uchiha clan mentally and emotionally from other ninja in the Narutoverse other than the Uchiha's became more powerful than nearly everyone else. They had good eggs, they had bad eggs, and they had people in between.



My argument failed? According to you? O excuse me all mighty Mod Impossibility who's word is law.

And hearsay as always been my criticism. I don't believe Tobirama because there's no one supporting his argument. He even mentions weaknesses in his own argument. The only thing we do know about his experiments are that he failed to take into account Black Zetsu who was pretty important. He was also insanely biased and purposefully discriminated against the Uchiha clan. His argument is weak, extremely weak.

You clearly haven't actually bothered to read the details of Tobirama's explanation. If you had, I can't imagine you'd be bothering to make these arguments. Anyway, throughout this I've addressed every ridiculous claim, I don't intend to repeat myself. So here's my last spiel about it:

Tobirama stated the curse as fact. Just as the existence of the transmigrants was stated as fact. The Hokages were brought back for the expressed purpose of providing clarification and background, they provided it. Hashirama provided his past with Madara, Sarutobi provided further backstory on Itachi, Tobirama explained an aspect of the Uchiha Clan. The manga even kindly gave us a backdrop . When he provided it, Hashirama even added an anecdote to follow it up. There wasn't a shred of doubt expressed. It remained unchallenged for the entirety of the manga. The name of the chapter was indicative of it, despite the explanation only taking up a few pages. In the course of the manga, it's just another detail. Somehow what seems to be lost in this is that arguing against the curse is contradicting what the manga left us with. And that just doesn't cut it.

 

[ninjabot]

I'm not sure if my point is getting across but basically this started when ninjabot claimed the curse was to blame for Sasuke's actions and decisions, going so far as to say he was fated to go that route.

Quote the exact post where I said such a thing.

---------- Post added at 04:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:43 PM ----------

And to save you the trouble of attempting a backpeddle I went ahead back to the exact moment we had this discussion once already where you claimed I said something I didn't:

First off, I never once said it was the only factor.

Referring to the curse.

You didn't fully state that but you said

He was designed to make the choices he made.

Which is true, but isn't the same thing as saying the curse is to blame or his actions and decisions. "Sasuke was designed to make the choices he made" means that he made the choices he made because he was genetically predisposed to do so. Once he acquired the Sharingan his point of view shifted. His body was designed to acquire the Sharingan once he experienced a great emotional trauma. Once that happened, his body responded to his hatred and he gradually fell down a spiral of hatred and bad choices influenced by the Curse of Hatred.

That was by genetic design, as it was his genes that are responsible for the curse.

This is twice already that you tried to build an argument for yourself by intentionally misinterpreting what was said.

 

[Holt]

Quote the exact post where I said such a thing.

---------- Post added at 04:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:43 PM ----------

And to save you the trouble of attempting a backpeddle I went ahead back to the exact moment we had this discussion once already where you claimed I said something I didn't:



Referring to the curse.






Which is true, but isn't the same thing as saying the curse is to blame or his actions and decisions. "Sasuke was designed to make the choices he made" means that he made the choices he made because he was genetically predisposed to do so. Once he acquired the Sharingan his point of view shifted. His body was designed to acquire the Sharingan once he experienced a great emotional trauma. Once that happened, his body responded to his hatred and he gradually fell down a spiral of hatred and bad choices influenced by the Curse of Hatred.

That was by genetic design, as it was his genes that are responsible for the curse.

This is twice already that you tried to build an argument for yourself by intentionally misinterpreting what was said.

Intentionally misinterpreting? Nope, it's miscommunication on your part. You mention both fate and the fact that Sasuke was designed that way as reasons for the actions he took. I guess it's not weird at all that there have been numerous pages of argument based on the statement you made.
Anyway I already stated that it's not my desire to delve into a drawn out argument again when it would go nowhere.

 

[ninjabot]

Intentionally misinterpreting? Nope, it's miscommunication on your part.

Anytime that you claim someone said somethign that they did not say, you're either lying about what they said, or you couldn't comprehend what they were saying in the first place. The fact we had this argument once already and you were corrected previously means that you shouldn't have made the same mistake twice.

But then you did. "Intentionally misinterpreting" is a pretty way of saying you're lying. Because you knew what I was saying the first and second time you attempted this.

You mention both fate and the fact that Sasuke was designed that way as reasons for the actions he took. I guess it's not weird at all that there have been numerous pages of argument based on the statement you made.

There shouldn't have been, because in the same posts where I use the words like "fate" or "predisposed", I clarify that the curse isn't the 100% sole reason for Sasuke's choices. Saying the curse fated him to make those choices is no different from you claiming that his trauma or the characters manipulating him fated him to make those choices, yet I'm not doctoring your posts to try to imply you were saying something you didn't (because that's a sign of desperation).

Anyway I already stated that it's not my desire to delve into a drawn out argument again when it would go nowhere.

You say that, but then you carefully choose words that are blatant lies knowing I'd call you on it. The only way to stop being corrected is to stop lying.

 

[shahdan]

Any Databook Translations available for Sasuke's Rinnegan?

---------- Post added at 08:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 PM ----------

Tobirama was highly biased and his own statements have been handily countered by Black Zatsu, that both clansmen were power-hungry and war-mongering thugs. Tobirama seems to conviniently leave out his own clan's past to lean on his speculative analysis.

 

[M3J]

Itachi didn't come to the conclusion that mass genocide was a good idea until he lost his beloved best friend. He had access to his second eye, his Kotoamatsukami could've done the same feat that the one Danzo stole would've had.

I thought he never thought mass genocide was a good idea and only killed earlier than planned because Danzou was blackmailing his brother.

I know, which is why I know Danzou was planning on killing the Uchiha and likely is the reason why Uchiha planned the coup. If he wanted to resolve things peacefully, he would have let Shisui use his eye. Also, was Itachi able to use Kotoamatsukami or was it in its cool down period?

Sasuke didn't decide to kill the elders until he lost the last person in his family that cared about him...and then later deduced that killing the innocent Konoha citizens for no reason whatsoever was justified (crazy, lol)... THEN decided to become the immortal avatar of hatred that unifies the entire planet against him. So yeah, Sasuke did become crazy after losing Itachi and it got worse the more his Sharingan evolved.

He didn't decide to kill the elders or go after Konoha until he found out the truth about Itachi. He may have gotten crazy (the avatar part isn't crazy, it makes sense seeing as how villages united to fight Tobi/Madara), but he was in complete control of his actions and rational. Sasuke knew what he was doing.

Obito completely threw away his bonds/ties to Konoha after losing his love interest, agreeing that the only way to ever gain happiness again is to devote himself to batshit crazy Madara's Mugen Tsukuyomi plan. He was prepared to murder a newborn baby to achieve these goals. His actions resulted in the murder of his teacher and attempted murder of his only friend and rival Kakashi amongst all the other innocents.

Crazy, yes. In complete control of his actions and awareness of what he was doing, yes. Can't blame the curse on this either. Tobi chose his wicked path despite knowing why Rin died and what she died for.

Then there's the "countless others" Tobirama mentions in his proclaimation. Admittedly he doesn't say they instantly go crazy, but he did explain their fall into despair. There are varying levels of insanity.

"Countless others" doesn't work for me. I need proof, especially when Tobirama could be exaggerating for all we know. Even if there were countless others, there were far more Uchiha who sided with the Senju instead of going all crazy and trying to fight a losing battle.

He didn't have his Sharingan until later. Coincidence? Nope. It's also pretty different in his situation when you consider that living in a time of war prepares you for loss a lot better. Madara losing his brothers wouldn't have the same effect as Sasuke losing his family or Obito losing Rin.

I interpreted that as him having a Sharingan for a long time, but not showing it for one reason or another.

True, but it took Uchiha turning their backs on him and overhearing Tobirama potentially planning to eradicate the Uchiha for Madara to finally go evil. Prior to that after Izuna's death, Madara was extremely wary and pissed off, but he was also more receptive.

I don't dispute any of this about revenge, that wasn't my point. I just thought it was laughable how you accused Tobirama, baselessly, of committing an act that Itachi, as a matter of fact, had committed on a grander scale and then went on to portray Itachi in the manner you did. You seem to have finally corrected it, so that's that.

Given what Tobirama is capable of, I'm not gonna say it's baseless, just that it's a possibility. Itachi is no saint, and he's made mistakes, but he didn't kill anyone out of revenge or spite, he killed his clan because he wanted to protect Konoha and his brother.

It isn't ridiculous to think that Tobirama was offing Uchiha Clan members while serving as Hokage just to make a few of them go crazy? Or was it while Hashirama was Hokage? Saying it once was ridiculous, repeating and defending it says pretty much eliminates any credibility you could possibly attempt to muster in this discussion.

Before Konoha, when they were enemies. I'm sure not even Tobirama would kill Uchiha on his side for tactical reasons. Then again, given what the manga portrayed, I'm not so sure about that. I know Danzou would definitely kill if he had to.

3. These specific instances aren't mere outliers. We know of 3 confirmed Uchiha's who went crazy, and all three of them regaining their sanity at one point or another. We also know of 3 who didn't go crazy despite suffering. Tobirama's vague response that "I've seen this countless times" doesn't hold water, again, with the entire clan minus Madara siding with Hashirama. Then we have no known instances of insanity sans Obito and Sasuke (both of who regained control, and both of whom were traumatized and heavily manipulated).

Not to mention, they all made the decisions they made knowing full well what happened and the consequences. Tobi knew what happened to Rin and why, but he chose to follow Madara. Sasuke knew why ITachi did what he did, and the consequences of going after Konoha, but it didn't stop him from wanting revenge.

No reason to believe Tobirama isn't full of shit, or that the curse is real, honestly. Unless you consider Zetsu a curse, since he's been manipulating everything for centuries.

Quote the exact post where I said such a thing.

You implied it when you accused us of not believing Tobirama/insanity/hatred thing because we wanted to blame Sasuke and make him take full responsibility for his actions.

---------- Post added at 12:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:47 PM ----------

So there's basically four different points of view.

1: Those that hate Sasuke or any Uchiha characters believe the curse is fake because they don't like the idea of Sasuke, Madara, or Obito not being held responsible for their actions.

2: Those that like Sasuke and aren't too biased to see reason believe the curse is real because there have been canon implications of it's existence (that's me).

3: Those that like Sasuke too much believe the curse is fake because they can't STAND the idea of Sasuke not having complete control over himself, or being a victim of any design other than his own (i.e, curse of hatred, exploitation by Itachi and then Obito).

4: Those that dislike Sasuke also believe the curse is real because they're in love with the concept of Sasuke forever being a bat-shit insane pawn, always manipulated and guided due to his inability to control his emotions, and now they have canon proof that he and his ilk are predisposed to fuck-nuttery.

Am I missing any? I didn't bother listing the "People that don't believe the curse exists because they have canon proof that it doesn't", because such a person doesn't exist.

While you say you believe it because manga facts, you also accuse those who don't believe it refuse to do so because they want Sasuke/Uchiha to take responsibility for their actions.

 

[Impossibility]

Given what Tobirama is capable of, I'm not gonna say it's baseless, just that it's a possibility. Itachi is no saint, and he's made mistakes, but he didn't kill anyone out of revenge or spite, he killed his clan because he wanted to protect Konoha and his brother.

Before Konoha, when they were enemies. I'm sure not even Tobirama would kill Uchiha on his side for tactical reasons. Then again, given what the manga portrayed, I'm not so sure about that. I know Danzou would definitely kill if he had to.

That wouldn't make sense. Why would he need to convince anyone that they were deranged when they were already his enemies. It's not as though they needed a reason to fight at that point. He, like every other Senju, was just taking out their foes.

 

[M3J]

Would you see your enemies as deranged if you were fighting with them, though? Wouldn't you see them as enemies trying to win?

But I'm just saying, there is absolutely no proof behind what Tobirama said, other than his words. The other Uchiha we have seen have not been crazy or fell to the whole curse crap, and none of them supported Madara. They wanted peace instead of fighting a losing battle like Kimimaro's clan. I see plenty of proof against Tobirama than proof that supports him.

Every Uchiha we have seen go crazy has made his or her own decisions, and they all owned up to it. Itachi owned up to not doing everything he could to prevent the massacre (although it would have happened anyway thanks to Danzou), Sasuke chose to destroy Konoha despite Tobi telling him what Itachi died for, Tobi chose to execute Madara's plans although he knew Rin died to protect Konoha and Kakashi, and Madara chose to destroy instead of continuing to work with Hashirama. The latter three owned up to it, and Sasuke and Tobi took steps to fix the shit that they caused.

Further proof that Sasuke wasn't crazy and was rational enough? He verified Tobi's story by asking Danzou and wanted to talk to Itachi. After talking to Itachi, Sasuke calmed down and wanted to talk to the hokage, from which he decided to help save the world, although he retained his messiah/savior complex until he and Naruto went down.

 

[Impossibility]

Would you see your enemies as deranged if you were fighting with them, though? Wouldn't you see them as enemies trying to win?

But I'm just saying, there is absolutely no proof behind what Tobirama said, other than his words. The other Uchiha we have seen have not been crazy or fell to the whole curse crap, and none of them supported Madara. They wanted peace instead of fighting a losing battle like Kimimaro's clan. I see plenty of proof against Tobirama than proof that supports him.

Every Uchiha we have seen go crazy has made his or her own decisions, and they all owned up to it. Itachi owned up to not doing everything he could to prevent the massacre (although it would have happened anyway thanks to Danzou), Sasuke chose to destroy Konoha despite Tobi telling him what Itachi died for, Tobi chose to execute Madara's plans although he knew Rin died to protect Konoha and Kakashi, and Madara chose to destroy instead of continuing to work with Hashirama. The latter three owned up to it, and Sasuke and Tobi took steps to fix the shit that they caused.

Further proof that Sasuke wasn't crazy and was rational enough? He verified Tobi's story by asking Danzou and wanted to talk to Itachi. After talking to Itachi, Sasuke calmed down and wanted to talk to the hokage, from which he decided to help save the world, although he retained his messiah/savior complex until he and Naruto went down.

Did you seriously go off on a tangent about "proof", as it pertains to the Curse, in response to being criticised for completely baseless accusations against Tobirama? As for this "proof", I'm pretty sure it's been addressed over and over in this thread.

 

[Delbi]

Tobirama's proof is based on his own experiments which we know nothing about. Aside from the things that have been argued and debated ad nausum, keep in mind that a common tactic in warfare is to dehumanize your enemy to make them easier to kill.

In Tobirama's eyes, it's very possible he thought of what was "wrong" with the Uchiha's as a curse in order to make it easier for himself (subconsciously) to hate them and treat them the way he did even after becoming allies with them. It also would make it easier for his village to destroy them at the drop of a hat if anything went wrong. He could simply say "hey they are cursed, they need to die" and it would have likely happened.

If Kishimoto did anything right in this manga it was his betrayal of humans acting as humans, having human problems; most human mental disease.

Tobirama's own hatred for the Uchiha clan is very Xenophobic quality that he had (something his brother and every other Hokage lacked). Tobirama in many ways was the most successful Hokage there was, but it's also because he was so unlike everyone other Hokage in that he was ruthless, cold, and calculating. He used logic (or at least what he thought was logic) moreso than anyone.

 

[M3J]

Did you seriously go off on a tangent about "proof", as it pertains to the Curse, in response to being criticised for completely baseless accusations against Tobirama? As for this "proof", I'm pretty sure it's been addressed over and over in this thread.

Is that all the proof you guys have that the curse exists? Cuz they're all shitty proof with no backing but "TOBIRAMA SAID THIS AND THAT AND HASHIRAMA SAID NOTHING EVEN THOUGH HE WAS THINKING OF MADARA!!" while there is plenty of proof that the curse/insanity thing doesn't exist, not in the way that makes the guilty Uchiha blameless for their actions. ninjabot even implied he believed in the curse because it made Sasuke not be responsible for his actions.

The ball is in your court to provide proof, evidence, or argument that the curse thing isn't bs.

What's even more dumb though, than my speculation, is saying Itachi was affected by the Uchiha fate/craziness when he was forced to massacre his clan for Konoha's sake and for his brother's sake.

 

[Impossibility]

Is that all the proof you guys have that the curse exists? Cuz they're all shitty proof with no backing but "TOBIRAMA SAID THIS AND THAT AND HASHIRAMA SAID NOTHING EVEN THOUGH HE WAS THINKING OF MADARA!!" while there is plenty of proof that the curse/insanity thing doesn't exist, not in the way that makes the guilty Uchiha blameless for their actions. ninjabot even implied he believed in the curse because it made Sasuke not be responsible for his actions.

The ball is in your court to provide proof, evidence, or argument that the curse thing isn't bs.

What's even more dumb though, than my speculation, is saying Itachi was affected by the Uchiha fate/craziness when he was forced to massacre his clan for Konoha's sake and for his brother's sake.

So I take it you're just going to continue to go off on a tangent after you've been called out on your bulls@*!. Attempting to assign motivations for why others support something is pretty consistent with your side of the argument. Misrepresenting their opinions pretty accurately represents your approach. Ignoring pages of discussion is probably how you've somehow managed to come to your conclusion in the first place. And pretending as though these three paragraphs add anything to the discussion is a waste of time.

 

[shahdan]

^ Wouldn't be the first time you have not added anything or given any proof to validate your claims.