I never said any of these things. If its polarizing it's because you're not paying attention.
My list ran the gamut from:
Those that hate Sasuke
Those that like Sasuke but aren't blinded by bias
Those that dislike Sasuke
Those that like Sasuke too much to remain unbiased
Again, how does liking or disliking Sasuke have anything to do with any of this.
if you care enough to express your opinion on the matter then you simply aren't indifferent.
I give less than two shits about Kiba, but if you start a discussion on whether or not Kiba can defeat Shino in a fight, I might put my two cents in because the topic is somewhat interesting. Perhaps that's not
true indifference, but it's also not suggesting that anyone who agrees or disagrees has to like or dislike the character.
Therefore, it's not simply black and white. It's white, off-white, gray, and then black. You're doing the same thing everyone else is doing, and that's jumping from one extreme to the other and ignoring all context because it's... easy.
It's only easy because you yourself are using the term "Sasuke hater."
As a member of this forum since 2007, I've seen the terms "fanboy", "hater", etc repeated over and over and over. And over. It's like the "Sakura is useless" joke.
It's stupid and unproductive and distracts from whatever point you actually want to make, regardless of whether or not the point is valid.
And Tobirama can talk objectively about the Uchiha clan whether he likes them or not, right? As for why pointing out biases matters? For the same reason you claim to avoid posts by people that acknowledge biases, and for the same reason everyone's trying to discredit Tobirama's findings: because bias, while it doesn't automatically invalidate one's opinion, it helps to discern one's motivations.
I don't necessarily avoid posts with bias. I just avoid people who say stuff like "sasuke hater", "naruto hater", "fanboy", et cetera.
I know, I'm weird.
In his speech, however, Tobirama comes across as a somewhat hateful man.
This, in addition to there being no real evidence apart from what Tobirama says, casts a shadow over his findings.
Couple things wrong with owning up to this. The first being that, you just claimed most people read what I'm saying, yet in the same response you admitted to breezing over my post, negating your point and validating my own.
Sigh. Just no. I spent a while typing a response. Don't even go there.
Obviously, I read the post if I
took the time to respond to it. Come on, dude.
What I was saying is that most of the time, I most definitely would ignore what you're saying. As I've mentioned, it irks me when people use "hater" or "fanboy" as part of their arguments.
"People read your posts, they just don't read them completely." That's exactly what I said: that they pick apart the things that fit their argument and ignore the ones that disprove it.
The second? You can't take posters seriously that point out biases, but you expect to be taken seriously after admitting to not reading what you're responding to thoroughly? I hope this comes with an understanding that you sacrifice any possibility of being taken seriously after the fact in return.
Again. I read your post. I wouldn't have responded to it otherwise. You missed the point of what I was saying, which is that it's hard to take you seriously.
But that's because whether or not I (or anyone) like Sasuke doesn't have much to do with any of this discussion.
Sasuke seemed plenty interested, as once Tobirama mentioned it he asked him to elaborate. Hashirama did ask Tobirama to chill with his biases, but he didn't say that he was lying when he said "You know it well, the Uchiha clan is possessed by evil." He went along with the explanation, even implied that he agreed with it when reiterating how much Madara loved Izuna.
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/619/13/
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/619/14/
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/619/15/ Sasuke asks what he means... Hashirama shuts his mouth. Why would he initially be angry about Tobirama persecuting the Uchiha, yet have no qualms with sitting there and allowing it to happen again in front of his face?
Because Hashirama wanted to let Sasuke make a decision on his own, so he let Sasuke listen to what Tobirama had to say.
And then Hashirama himself sat down and told Sasuke his story. So that Sasuke would make his own decision regardless.
Which, overall, speak to Hashirama's character. Kind of the opposite of his brother.
Of course, Hashirama would be upset at his brother persecuting an entire race of people. Both because they were
a part of the village and also because that's just kinda wrong, yo.
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/619/19/ Sasuke continues listening to the story until the end where Hashirama finally has enough and tells Tobirama to shut up. Sasuke speaks up and claims "I don't care. I'm not pure, and I'm not a child." This didn't mean he didn't care about the story, it meant he wanted to hear everything and him talking trash about the Uchiha clan wasn't going to deter him. Up to that point he made several facial expressions that implied shock and curiosity, then finally anger when he activates his EMS.
So Sasuke gave a shit alright. It was written all over his face. And eyes.
Yeah, I suppose that's one way to look at it. But Sasuke is far more interested in learning why Itachi was forced to what he did.
I don't believe for a second that Sasuke buys into what Tobirama is saying.
I'm sure the 'science' is there. I guess it needs to be since it's the only explanation for how the Sharingan happens in an Uchiha. But Sasuke's demeanor suggests that none of that really concerns him. That's why he immediately changes the topic and beings talking to Hashirama.
That's how science works. You form a hypothesis, then you perform a series of experiments based on that educated guess. It just so happened that his findings supported his notion. If they didn't, then he wouldn't rely on them as fact. That doesn't invalidate his findings in the slightest.
However, you have no idea that that is what Tobirama did.
Of course he would rely on them as fact. He already dislikes the Uchiha.
It doesn't
invalidate his findings, necessarily. But, like every experiment ever, your findings have to be found again and again through experimenting. The issue is that Tobirama's findings are the only "proof" to consider.
So, let's recap:
1. A man hates Uchiha
2. A man finds stuff suggesting that Uchiha are cursed, which strengthens his resolve towards hating Uchiha
3. A man actions in life towards Uchiha cause further dismay/discord
4. A man continues hating Uchiha
Hm... come to think of it, Hashirama actually continues validating Tobirama's claims about the Sharingan's awakening right here:
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/624/10/
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/624/11/
Do you actually know what kind of emotional stimuli results in the acquisition of the Sharingan? And which ones cause it to advance to it's higher levels?
Does helping someone with groceries have anything to do with any of these stimuli?
According to Tobirama, it's experiencing a great loss.
According to Kishimoto, intense feelings of love (like imagining your Papa) can do it, too.
So, I actually don't know. I don't think Kishimoto does either.
Anyway, I said that in regards to the free will stuff. Obito's Sharingan was already awakened when he met Madara.
But Obito wasn't buying into any of Madara's BS.
Until Madara decided to purposefully manipulate Obito, Obito wanted out.
Of course. It was the catalyst that awakened his Mangekyou Sharingan and pushed him into a deep depression, making him easily exploited for the rest of his days.
Yes. I don't see how that would show he's "cursed".
He wasn't fine! Are you implying Madara's response was normal!? He decided to wage war on the entire village because Tobirama was badmouthing him, lol. By that point Madara had already acquired the EMS and while in a state of regression, he was basically a powder keg. Then his clan ignored his attempts to help them, essentially abandoning him.
Of course it wasn't normal. Madara is both crazy and was also being manipulated (indirectly by Black Zetsu).
But Madara was experiencing a peace-time just like anyone else.
He did however seek vengeance against people unaffiliated with those who he felt wronged him, driven by his emotions which made it easy for Obito to exploit him. Sasuke went from wanting to kill those who wronged his brother, to wanting to kill those who live in the same place as those who wronged his brother. That's a gigantic leap. How does this manage to prove that there's no curse?
Because, again, saying there's a curse suggests that these characters would have done what they did
no matter what.
But it's impossible to say that because they were all manipulated by someone else.
Why do people keep saying it's only the 3 Uchiha who've gone insane when Tobirama mentions that he's seen it happen countless times?
1. Because those were the only 3 shown in the manga that experienced that
2. Tobirama's attitude towards Uchiha in general
I guarantee you that if Hashirama had explained that, it would've been easier to swallow.
But the fact that the only examples were people also manipulated by others is what's really damning.
[/quote]When Hashirama admits that he believed after seeing Madara awaken his Sharingan it resulted in him changing? Hell, he threw away ties to his best friend under manipulation by no one.
Who was there manipulating that change in character? No one.[/quote]
Madara's awakens his Sharingan as he specifically remembers his lost brothers (
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/624/9/)
Note how Madara emphasizes the fact that Hashirama is a Senju.
And who's responsible for manipulating these two clans into fighting each other?
Yes Black Zetsu was responsible for the war between Uchiha and Senju,
Oh, yeah.
[/quote]but he wasn't responsible for the events that resulted in Madara's Sharingan awakening and him squashing his friendship with Madara.[/quote]
He kind of is, though. Along with the people who killed his brothers and the two parents that decided to instigate a fight in that very moment.
I suppose that might be grasping at straws, but Madara didn't just awaken his Sharingan for no reason.
And there's more:
Itachi was so sure that Sasuke was going to be manipulated by Obito that he was prepared to literally brainwash him into protecting Konohagakure with Kotoamatsukami. Shows how much he trusted his ability to make decisions on his own, lmao.
And yet, Sasuke
still was manipulated by Obito and the only reason the crow didn't work on Sasuke was because it was accidentally used on Itachi himself.
Then we have the history of Izanagi and Izanami: a story of how the Uchiha clan was so obsessed with getting their way that they were willing to resort to self mutilation to alter reality. They needed a Genjutsu to force each other to stop hurting themselves and each other, and accept life as it is. There's nothing normal about that shit. This was practically a pandemic amongst the clan.
This is actually a pretty interesting point.
