Discussion New Roles and New Rules Suggestion Thread

[GrySun]

Submissions for new roles need to follow the next format in order to be considered:

I. [Place Holder Name]

II. [Affiliation]

III. [Short Description]

IV. [Long Description/Idea/Premise/Scope]

V. [Priority/RoleType/Interactions/other Specifics]

Spoiler: Examples of Approved roles

I. Troublemaker

II. Town

III. Can once per game make a Day phase lynch be the top 2 voted people instead of regular 1 top voted person. Every player has 2 votes but cannot vote the same player twice.

IV. PMs the host on the night before the day he wishes to use his power on. Host announces at start of day that the 2 top voted players will be lynched.
Everyone gets 2 votes that they can use on 2 individual players. Both can be moved once like usual. Example:
!votekill1 PlayerX
!votekill2 PlayerY
!votelock2 (locks on PlayerY).

Any other format is also fine as long as players specify who they are voting and if it's a new vote or they are changing their first one.

V. Doesn't have a Priority, happens at the end of night after all other actions. Doesn't target another player. Primary role.

Since it happens at the end of a phase, the player can be both blocked and killed to prevent it happening.

I. Psychiatrist

II. Townie

III. The Psychiatrist investigates one person per night phase to see if the player has a Secondary Role. They get a "Your target has a secondary role" if that is the case, and a "Your target does not have a secondary role" if it's not. The Psychiatrist does not find out the allegiance of the target.

IV. It's a counter for scum secondaries without outright revealing them, leaving room for guess work and player reading.

V. Priority 2, Primary Role.

Current roles Approved for testing here

Rules on including those in a game:

• A host can take any of these roles and test them in their game. Depending on results from testing the role it will either be included into the Role list or need more changes/testing.
• A host at the very least has to announce in the opening post of the game that new roles are being tested, or alternatively even more specifically reveal the roles that are being tested.

Link to the last update post with the roles that are either close to approval or were not approved: here.

 

[Copy Panda]

In terms of gameplay I don't think it brings much to the table

 

[GrySun]

Added Mafia Doctor to approved roles for testing, Spirit Medium and Mafia Apprentice removed from this list since they got added into the regular list.

Also some suggestions of mine:

• Removing Martyr. I'm the one who originally approved the role and used it a few times in my games, and while it comboes with Cowboy and Prosecutor it otherwise isn't used for it's intended purpose. If we want a counter to Assassin we should make a role meant for that, not for it to be a side-thing of the Martyr who doesn't even counter it well. Meanwhile daykilling roles are strong enough to not need a combo imo, and Prosecutor/Cowboy should be aware of the risk when they do an action.
  Either way, if we rework it that much it will need to go back to testing and out of the role list.
• Changing the rule related to daytime role claims. Right now the only thing we have written in the rules related to claiming daytime roles is:

You are not allowed to pretend being a Daytime Vigilant, Cowboy, or other roles that have Day Commands. It's a Minor Violation if you do that regardlessly.

So what does this mean, is it only a violation if you pretend and not if you really are a daytime role? Then Noble, Martyr etc. can just outright claim and confirm themselves automatically no?

@Vandred @Lambu @Copy Panda @Farfalla thoughts?

 

[Vandred]

Added Mafia Doctor to approved roles for testing, Spirit Medium and Mafia Apprentice removed from this list since they got added into the regular list.

I'm fine with that.

• Removing Martyr. I'm the one who originally approved the role and used it a few times in my games, and while it comboes with Cowboy and Prosecutor it otherwise isn't used for it's intended purpose. If we want a counter to Assassin we should make a role meant for that, not for it to be a side-thing of the Martyr who doesn't even counter it well. Meanwhile daykilling roles are strong enough to not need a combo imo, and Prosecutor/Cowboy should be aware of the risk when they do an action.
  Either way, if we rework it that much it will need to go back to testing and out of the role list.

Yup, agree on removing it. Introducing a Daytime Doctor (of sorts) would cover the Martyr's original purpose of tanking Assassin kills in a more useful and gratifying way, if we felt like that was needed. But that would fall into the broader discussion on reworking the Assassin role to be a less uncontested power role, so just removing the Martyr for now (and figuring out the best version of a substitute later) would be okay with me.

• Changing the rule related to daytime role claims. Right now the only thing we have written in the rules related to claiming daytime roles is:

You are not allowed to pretend being a Daytime Vigilant, Cowboy, or other roles that have Day Commands. It's a Minor Violation if you do that regardlessly.

So what does this mean, is it only a violation if you pretend and not if you really are a daytime role? Then Noble, Martyr etc. can just outright claim and confirm themselves automatically no?

As previously suggested, yes, I see it as a rule that was meant to discourage trolling others by pretending you can daykill people, which comes with a vague enough wording that it could be interpreted a number of ways at the moment.

As for what would make sense to me:

• No penalty for claiming day roles. You are allowed to say you are Martyr (if it stays), Noble, Politician, Prosecutor, Daytime Vigilante, or Badass Cowboy the same as any other role. It's up to you to getting trusted by providing proof, if you can.
• Minor penalty for using a day command of a role you don't have. Day commands being the statements in bold used to announce your target when you are Cowboy, DTV or Presecutor - so if you go "Duel Player X!" when you're not Cowboy, you should get a penalty to go with the scowl.

However, that penalty rule would leave open the interpretation of a scenario where a Cowboy, DTV or Prosecutor has had their role canceled without them knowing, such as getting targeted by a Pirate or Shapeshifter. In that case, would it be better to:

1. Have no penalty be assigned, so that you'd be confirmed as the role you claimed and that it was canceled somehow, or;
2. Have the penalty be assigned normally, so that you could fuss and complain that you were telling the truth and the host is an incompetent scumbag, which could be more fair to the (Mafia) Pirate or Shapeshifter that chose to target you but would create a loophole that allowed any mafia to pretend being a day role and using its day command in order to claim it must have been stolen?

Currently leaning toward the first option, myself.

 

[gnut]

Just make Bodyguard a full time job instead of maryter..deciding if they should protect nite or day.

 

[GrySun]

Yup, agree on removing it. Introducing a Daytime Doctor (of sorts) would cover the Martyr's original purpose of tanking Assassin kills in a more useful and gratifying way, if we felt like that was needed. But that would fall into the broader discussion on reworking the Assassin role to be a less uncontested power role, so just removing the Martyr for now (and figuring out the best version of a substitute later) would be okay with me.

I still don't think reworking Assassin is better than introducing a counter to him. The only viable Assassin reworks either limit his number of usages which is a strong nerf(but maybe a good idea) or it changes a bit how it limits mafia kills at night. At least that's another thing to discuss I suppose.

• Would you rather rework Assassin(how?) or make a counte role for him?

As previously suggested, yes, I see it as a rule that was meant to discourage trolling others by pretending you can daykill people, which comes with a vague enough wording that it could be interpreted a number of ways at the moment.

As for what would make sense to me:

• No penalty for claiming day roles. You are allowed to say you are Martyr (if it stays), Noble, Politician, Prosecutor, Daytime Vigilante, or Badass Cowboy the same as any other role. It's up to you to getting trusted by providing proof, if you can.
• Minor penalty for using a day command of a role you don't have. Day commands being the statements in bold used to announce your target when you are Cowboy, DTV or Presecutor - so if you go "Duel Player X!" when you're not Cowboy, you should get a penalty to go with the scowl.

However, that penalty rule would leave open the interpretation of a scenario where a Cowboy, DTV or Prosecutor has had their role canceled without them knowing, such as getting targeted by a Pirate or Shapeshifter. In that case, would it be better to:

1. Have no penalty be assigned, so that you'd be confirmed as the role you claimed and that it was canceled somehow, or;
2. Have the penalty be assigned normally, so that you could fuss and complain that you were telling the truth and the host is an incompetent scumbag, which could be more fair to the (Mafia) Pirate or Shapeshifter that chose to target you but would create a loophole that allowed any mafia to pretend being a day role and using its day command in order to claim it must have been stolen?

Currently leaning toward the first option, myself.

The problem I have with that is, do we want to see Vigilantes claiming without shooting when pressured? Same as with mafias doing that?

For some roles like Cowboy it could even make sense that they "never want to use it because they are scared" so they are unconfirmable in a way. We need to agree to some method, and I'm not sure which one is best. But yes I would not want people pressuring others with fake daykill threats.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 25, 2019, Original Post Date: Aug 25, 2019 ---

Just make Bodyguard a full time job instead of maryter..deciding if they should protect nite or day.

Hm that would make sense if we want to keep the functionality of the Martyr alive, tho atm I'm not sure if it's needed. But bodyguard could be a full-time protector.

 

[Farfalla]

It bugs me more than we have both Vengeful and Witch in the role list than what Martyr currently is tbh. And you know what I think about Assassin as well, I don't think it needs to be adjusted. Martyr isn't redundant like the 2 roles I mentioned, and we have other roles that are either annoying to play with or add little to the game (Healthy Townie, Restless Spirit, etc), so I don't see why we should remove that role from the list. If it's gonna be replaced by a reworked one then yeah, I'm in. Until then, I would leave it there. Even the possibility of combos with other day time roles are up to setups.

I like the suggestion Vandred made about the day time roles/commands and Greg's and honestly didn't check what Mafia Doctor and Spirit Medium are.

 

[Crescent Jinx]

Just make Bodyguard a full time job instead of maryter..deciding if they should protect nite or day.

Second this o/

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 25, 2019, Original Post Date: Aug 25, 2019 ---

Restless Spirit

Idk if it’s necessary bad but rarely get to see VT, Witch, RS ever used to their full potential. VT is the one who most commonly gets to use their actions. So the others seem redundant. And the killing is more satisfactory then voting. Witch probably could be changed to not be like the lesser Vengeful of those two. Restless with the coming back and posting and voting seems decent enough. Not everything has to be great.

Healthy Townie tho. I don’t see a purpose to it since we rarely use any of the diseases and idk about a person on townie side being a canceled of a role we would want to see used (aka sickly). Honestly with mechanics the way they are, you could just give a vanilla some type of resistance/nullifying buff.

#HealthyTownieMustDieFromRoleList

@Vandred

Also deception be strong with Claiming a pirate stole your day actions. That’s more at the heart of mafia then punishing people for lying well. Cuz I want confirmation if they said they had say action. Am that paranoid. So penalty should be given if they prosecute player X without power to prosecute.

Really this just means we need to have a game where all day actions are traitors. They wouldn’t even need to claim. Just use action and be confirmed townie. Then bam. Hey recruited by their team.

 

[Vandred]

I still don't think reworking Assassin is better than introducing a counter to him. The only viable Assassin reworks either limit his number of usages which is a strong nerf(but maybe a good idea) or it changes a bit how it limits mafia kills at night. At least that's another thing to discuss I suppose.

• Would you rather rework Assassin(how?) or make a counte role for him?

Introducing a counter of what kind? Because the closest thing would be Bomb at the moment, even Martyr/Bodyguard would be closer to a nuisance rather than a counter for Assassin. Also feel the need to tag @Lambu specifically on this.

The problem I have with that is, do we want to see Vigilantes claiming without shooting when pressured? Same as with mafias doing that?

For some roles like Cowboy it could even make sense that they "never want to use it because they are scared" so they are unconfirmable in a way. We need to agree to some method, and I'm not sure which one is best. But yes I would not want people pressuring others with fake daykill threats.

To be honest, the proposition is mostly a formality for how things currently stand - meaning that exploiting the loophole has become the norm. It's already entirely possible to "claim without claiming" any day role you want without incurring any penalty, and people get trusted with those claims because they use their roles soon after revealing. The rules as they are now do not prevent mafia from "claiming" day roles that way.

But if the issue is that mafias should be prevented from claiming day roles (so claiming DTV when you actually are DTV would essentially confirm you), then I don't agree. Day roles should get confirmed when - or rather, if - they choose to use their role. That simply means that claiming Cowboy would now be a viable mafia strategy, which townies should look out for and not blindly trust.

It bugs me more than we have both Vengeful and Witch in the role list than what Martyr currently is tbh. And you know what I think about Assassin as well, I don't think it needs to be adjusted. Martyr isn't redundant like the 2 roles I mentioned, and we have other roles that are either annoying to play with or add little to the game (Healthy Townie, Restless Spirit, etc), so I don't see why we should remove that role from the list. If it's gonna be replaced by a reworked one then yeah, I'm in. Until then, I would leave it there. Even the possibility of combos with other day time roles are up to setups.

I like the suggestion Vandred made about the day time roles/commands and Greg's and honestly didn't check what Mafia Doctor and Spirit Medium are.

Mafia Doctor is a Sane Doctor on the mafia's side. Spirit Medium is "reverse Mortician", investigates a dead townie and finds out all their past targets.

As for the useless roles in the list, I wouldn't be against some trimming for the roles that rarely see use or don't add much to the game... Then again, they're not exactly popular with hosts other than being used as filler, as far as I know.

#HealthyTownieMustDieFromRoleList

@Vandred

?

Don't even know when's the last time Healthy Townie was used.

 

[Crescent Jinx]

Don't even know when's the last time Healthy Townie was used.

That was a “Help me Kill it shoutout.”

 

[GrySun]

It bugs me more than we have both Vengeful and Witch in the role list than what Martyr currently is tbh. And you know what I think about Assassin as well, I don't think it needs to be adjusted. Martyr isn't redundant like the 2 roles I mentioned, and we have other roles that are either annoying to play with or add little to the game (Healthy Townie, Restless Spirit, etc), so I don't see why we should remove that role from the list. If it's gonna be replaced by a reworked one then yeah, I'm in. Until then, I would leave it there. Even the possibility of combos with other day time roles are up to setups.

I like the suggestion Vandred made about the day time roles/commands and Greg's and honestly didn't check what Mafia Doctor and Spirit Medium are.

Idk about those, they were a thing before my time so I‘m not in the rush to touch them. And tbh I‘d only remove Witch(and maybe Healthy Townie, but less so), the rest you dislike has it‘s usage.
Replacing with a reworked model seems a better idea for me in terms of Martyr yes. But would most likely be a rename too, so the role itself would disappear.

Introducing a counter of what kind? Because the closest thing would be Bomb at the moment, even Martyr/Bodyguard would be closer to a nuisance rather than a counter for Assassin. Also feel the need to tag @Lambu specifically on this.

Bomb is a general counter for any mafia killing role. That‘s like saying Investigator is pointless and a Bomb is enough to counter Janitor. I was thinking of something along the lines of protection for the target, akin to a Doctor but works at day, and notifies all players that a daykill was prevented. Would theoretically work on townie daykill targets too. This way Assassin can‘t bypass everything.
A counter to him should be something that either helps town discover who the Assassin is(a role that checks his victim or something), or some role that removes his killing power if the target was well picked.

But if the issue is that mafias should be prevented from claiming day roles (so claiming DTV when you actually are DTV would essentially confirm you), then I don't agree. Day roles should get confirmed when - or rather, if - they choose to use their role. That simply means that claiming Cowboy would now be a viable mafia strategy, which townies should look out for and not blindly trust.

I guess eventually the players will get accustomed to this new „meta“ of sorts so I agree preventing dayclaims isn‘t that important. But preventing joke kill-threats should still be something that should be done imo. Would be very messy, at least I know I‘d abuse that to find mafias based on their reactions. Something @Gryffindor was already doing a previous game, albeit while being the role himself. It‘s a pretty powerful tool.

To be honest, the proposition is mostly a formality for how things currently stand - meaning that exploiting the loophole has become the norm. It's already entirely possible to "claim without claiming" any day role you want without incurring any penalty, and people get trusted with those claims because they use their roles soon after revealing. The rules as they are now do not prevent mafia from "claiming" day roles that way.

Yes they don‘t which is why I asked in the first place to define the rules better on that.

 

[Vandred]

That was a “Help me Kill it shoutout.”

What's with the hate for it though? As far as I know it's just being sitting there, ignored and unused. A bit like Unlimited Voter Disease.

Bomb is a general counter for any mafia killing role. That‘s like saying Investigator is pointless and a Bomb is enough to counter Janitor. I was thinking of something along the lines of protection for the target, akin to a Doctor but works at day, and notifies all players that a daykill was prevented. Would theoretically work on townie daykill targets too. This way Assassin can‘t bypass everything.
A counter to him should be something that either helps town discover who the Assassin is(a role that checks his victim or something), or some role that removes his killing power if the target was well picked.

The point being that Martyr is as strong a "counter" to Assassin as Bodyguard is to any mafia nightkill role, meaning - a very weak, almost negligible one. You might not kill that one person you wanted and it has the potential to set you back, but it's still one less townie toward victory. Besides, the counter being fun to play would be ideal as well; while playing Investigator as it's meant to be played keeps you in the game and rewards you with the ability to point out a liar, Martyr (and Bodyguard) rewards your keen predictive ability with killing yourself.

So that would rather be saying that Martyr is not pointless, but it's a weak counter, it's not fun to play, its original function is so situational that it's actually stronger when used to combo with townie daykill roles (or that one time against SS, even), it's never worked as intended in countering Assassin, and it could even be fused with Bodyguard to make a more complete role that covers the Martyr's niche in the role meta.


That said, the most immediate counter ideas are those already there, yeah. Daytime Doctor, Assassin Investigator or Assassin Defuser Will have to think about it.

I guess eventually the players will get accustomed to this new „meta“ of sorts so I agree preventing dayclaims isn‘t that important. But preventing joke kill-threats should still be something that should be done imo. Would be very messy, at least I know I‘d abuse that to find mafias based on their reactions. Something @Gryffindor was already doing a previous game, albeit while being the role himself. It‘s a pretty powerful tool.

Then let's assume you were the host in that situation, except Gryff wasn't actually DTV, never outright claimed the role, yet pressured people with the same threat. Suggesting that he was able to daykill people without saying it. Would you have penalized him for it?

If not, should we make a rule where you can get penalized for vaguely hinting you can daykill?

 

[GrySun]

The point being that Martyr is as strong a "counter" to Assassin as Bodyguard is to any mafia nightkill role, meaning - a very weak, almost negligible one. You might not kill that one person you wanted and it has the potential to set you back, but it's still one less townie toward victory. Besides, the counter being fun to play would be ideal as well; while playing Investigator as it's meant to be played keeps you in the game and rewards you with the ability to point out a liar, Martyr (and Bodyguard) rewards your keen predictive ability with killing yourself.

So that would rather be saying that Martyr is not pointless, but it's a weak counter, it's not fun to play, its original function is so situational that it's actually stronger when used to combo with townie daykill roles (or that one time against SS, even), it's never worked as intended in countering Assassin, and it could even be fused with Bodyguard to make a more complete role that covers the Martyr's niche in the role meta.


That said, the most immediate counter ideas are those already there, yeah. Daytime Doctor, Assassin Investigator or Assassin Defuser Will have to think about it.

Yes I know all that about Martyr, which was why I suggested axing it since it‘s main purpose is never used and it‘s „counter“ isn‘t even much of a counter.

Daytime doctor is most straightforward, while assassin investigator would pressure the assassin to not daykill before they find and kill the assassin investigator, or to have him risk it if he thinks there isn‘t one in the game or he can deal with his results.
The 2nd one sounds more fun but we should think of a good way to implement it.

Then let's assume you were the host in that situation, except Gryff wasn't actually DTV, never outright claimed the role, yet pressured people with the same threat. Suggesting that he was able to daykill people without saying it. Would you have penalized him for it?

If not, should we make a rule where you can get penalized for vaguely hinting you can daykill?

I totally would have penalized him. He didn‘t claim, but current rules say „pretending“, which includes acting in such a cheeky way. And for that the penalty isn‘t strong enough

If we remove any penalties related to that, then I think maybe eventually people won‘t care much for that wordplay to begin with, since the main reason it works so well and worked well for Gryff is that people are not allowed to fake, meaning he had to have been telling the truth.

It‘s currently host dependent on when they think Politician targets or daykillers crossed the line with their hinting and talking.

But for me I would penalize those very harshly, both in how much talking I allow and in the penalty.

If you disagree then we need to properly cement the rules, but as they are right now in your example a host should have punished Gryff who wasn‘t a daykill role.

 

[Lambu]

Just make Bodyguard a full time job instead of maryter..deciding if they should protect nite or day.

Listen to this man, this is actually a very good idea.

I would love it if the BG would die if protects someone at night, but at day he completely blocks the Assassin kill. Of course that would come with some tweaking of the role.

Im with those that think Martyr should be removed and ultimately replaced by another more effective role, but I also believe we shouldn't take it away till said replacement is clear.
This is because, even if Im not a fan of it, it still has its uses in specific set-ups.



As for claiming/pretending Daytime Roles... I believe the penalty is a formalism in most cases.

I believe the penalties for pretending to be a Daykilling role should remain (DTV, Cowboy, Prosecutor...). This is so "fakes" cannot get away by bluffing with a kill.
Now other Daytime roles (Politician, Noble...). I dont see the point in penalizing for claiming to be one, mainly because the real Politician and Noble can easily prove themselves at any time without needing to "claim" anything. If scum get away with claiming such roles and Town allows it then thats bad town play, not mafia's cheating, at least in my eyes.

To summarize, this way people cannot say nor hint they are a Daykilling role if they aren't the real thing, but they can try faking other dayroles (at their own risk of course).

 

[Vandred]

Listen to this man, this is actually a very good idea.

I would love it if the BG would die if protects someone at night, but at day he completely blocks the Assassin kill. Of course that would come with some tweaking of the role.

Im with those that think Martyr should be removed and ultimately replaced by another more effective role, but I also believe we shouldn't take it away till said replacement is clear.
This is because, even if Im not a fan of it, it still has its uses in specific set-ups.

I wouldn't be against extending Bodyguard's protection to Assassin kills too, but to specify, I would be against BG tanking daykills and lynches like Martyr currently does.

Still, as you said that would bring us back to square one regarding a more effective counter for Assassin.

Yes I know all that about Martyr, which was why I suggested axing it since it‘s main purpose is never used and it‘s „counter“ isn‘t even much of a counter.

Daytime doctor is most straightforward, while assassin investigator would pressure the assassin to not daykill before they find and kill the assassin investigator, or to have him risk it if he thinks there isn‘t one in the game or he can deal with his results.
The 2nd one sounds more fun but we should think of a good way to implement it.

Yeah, regular Investigator works because it doesn't point you directly to the Janitor, but can help you find him. Since Assassin doesn't have any hidden information to discover, what could an Assassin Investigator variant point at?

I totally would have penalized him. He didn‘t claim, but current rules say „pretending“, which includes acting in such a cheeky way. And for that the penalty isn‘t strong enough

If we remove any penalties related to that, then I think maybe eventually people won‘t care much for that wordplay to begin with, since the main reason it works so well and worked well for Gryff is that people are not allowed to fake, meaning he had to have been telling the truth.

It‘s currently host dependent on when they think Politician targets or daykillers crossed the line with their hinting and talking.

But for me I would penalize those very harshly, both in how much talking I allow and in the penalty.

If you disagree then we need to properly cement the rules, but as they are right now in your example a host should have punished Gryff who wasn‘t a daykill role.

As I understand it the penalty is mostly symbolical, more meant to point out that the player is lying than anything else.

Alright. So to summarize the discussion:


Penalty for acting like you can daykill when you are not DTV, Badass Cowboy or Prosecutor:

• Can't get away with pressuring people with a daykill threat if you don't have one
• Daykill roles get host confirmation when they reveal, without having to use their day action first
• It's possible to catch a liar by baiting them into suggesting they can daykill
• Meta remains essentially unchanged

No penalty for acting like you can daykill:

• Pressuring people with a daykill threat will likely start to be taken much more lightly
• No host confirmation until you commit to using your day action, so more emphasis on a risk/reward evaluation
• Range of viable fake claims for mafia gets slightly broader, although with a risky option (such as claiming you're Cowboy who doesn't want to end up killing themselves or a potential townie)
  
  
• Less space to ask players for opinions on who to target, unless you're either very subtle or willing to tank the penalty (could cause players with a daykill role to hesitate more before choosing to shoot) (Actually this point is reversed if there *isn't* a penalty)

Opinions from anyone else?

 

[Lambu]

I wouldn't be against extending Bodyguard's protection to Assassin kills too, but to specify, I would be against BG tanking daykills and lynches like Martyr currently does.

Still, as you said that would bring us back to square one regarding a more effective counter for Assassin.



As I understand it the penalty is mostly symbolical, more meant to point out that the player is lying than anything else.

Alright. So to summarize the discussion:


Penalty for acting like you can daykill when you are not DTV, Badass Cowboy or Prosecutor:

• Can't get away with pressuring people with a daykill threat if you don't have one
• Daykill roles get host confirmation when they reveal, without having to use their day action first
• It's possible to catch a liar by baiting them into suggesting they can daykill
• Meta remains essentially unchanged

No penalty for acting like you can daykill:

• Pressuring people with a daykill threat will likely start to be taken much more lightly
• No host confirmation until you commit to using your day action, so more emphasis on a risk/reward evaluation
• Less space to ask players for opinions on who to target, unless you're either very subtle or willing to tank the penalty (could cause players with a daykill role to hesitate more before choosing to shoot)
• Range of viable fake claims for mafia gets slightly broader, although with a risky option (such as claiming you're Cowboy who doesn't want to end up killing themselves or a potential townie)

Opinions from anyone else?

Yeah, thats why it would be cool if the BG can deny the Assassin kill, it would make the Assassin have to think carefully before using its action, not just "oh, a det revealed himself, die!"

Say, for example: The Bodyguard chooses a player to protect at night, if said player is attacked at night the Bodyguard becomes the target instead. If said player and him dont die, then the BG protects that player from an Assassin attack the next day. The Bodyguard can switch targets once during the day.

It would be a cool upgrade for the Bodyguard, and would actually have a nice use. Tho the Assassin investigator idea could also work.


As for the penalty thing, I think the problem resides solely on Daykilling bluffs, then I think those should be applied on the people that pretend to be that kind of role. Whether it should be done regardless of its true or not would be the issue here. I think the penalty should only happen if its false.

 

[GrySun]

Yeah, regular Investigator works because it doesn't point you directly to the Janitor, but can help you find him. Since Assassin doesn't have any hidden information to discover, would could an Assassin Investigator variant point at?

Was thinking some effect like getting some(3-5?) number of names from the host saying one of them was the Assassin, like finding evidence from the corpse pointing at one of those. One being the Assassin and others being random names. And can be used on any Assassin-daykilled person. So the more the Assassin kills the riskier it becomes.

Basically something that would give repercussions to using the role as opposed to it being without risks as it is normally.

It would be a cool upgrade for the Bodyguard, and would actually have a nice use. Tho the Assassin investigator idea could also work.

It does sound good yes, but wonder if it‘s better to add it to an existing role like that as compared to making a new role. Investigator is also specifically anti-janitor. Though like this the BG being ingame doesn‘t confirm an Assassin existing, since BG has the nighttime use too.

I think the penalty should only happen if its false.

I agree with this one @Vandred basically true daykillers can claim without penalty, thereby being confirmed just by claiming, while fake daykillers get penalized. It keeps things the same while preventing fake daykill threats and allowing people to fake any non-daykill dayrole. Are you fine with that option?

Though that means someone who used to be a daykiller and gets Mentor recruited before claiming isn‘t allowed to claim that daykill role after being recruited. Which I think is fine.

So if that is agreed on, there‘s still the points of:

• Assassin counter: the investigator variant or the bodyguard(or new role) variant?
• Martyr removal if the first point about Assassin counter is defined?

 

[Vandred]

Was thinking some effect like getting some(3-5?) number of names from the host saying one of them was the Assassin, like finding evidence from the corpse pointing at one of those. One being the Assassin and others being random names. And can be used on any Assassin-daykilled person. So the more the Assassin kills the riskier it becomes.

Basically something that would give repercussions to using the role as opposed to it being without risks as it is normally.

So it's not Assassin Investigator, it's actually Assassin Barkeeper

If you could get a new batch of random names for every Assassin victim you investigate, the culprit could very easily be out by D3 even in medium-sized games. I think a better variant would be that you get five (?) names the first time, and then one gets crossed out for every successive victim investigated.

Still, that would rely on luck and randomness way more than I'd like, since just a few "right" deaths or lynches could make it drastically easy to identify the Assassin.

Yeah, thats why it would be cool if the BG can deny the Assassin kill, it would make the Assassin have to think carefully before using its action, not just "oh, a det revealed himself, die!"

Say, for example: The Bodyguard chooses a player to protect at night, if said player is attacked at night the Bodyguard becomes the target instead. If said player and him dont die, then the BG protects that player from an Assassin attack the next day. The Bodyguard can switch targets once during the day.

It would be a cool upgrade for the Bodyguard, and would actually have a nice use. Tho the Assassin investigator idea could also work.

It does sound good yes, but wonder if it‘s better to add it to an existing role like that as compared to making a new role. Investigator is also specifically anti-janitor. Though like this the BG being ingame doesn‘t confirm an Assassin existing, since BG has the nighttime use too.

So it's merging Bodyguard with the idea of Daytime Doc, right? Could work fine if you ask me, I'd rather keep it simple. The detail that it wouldn't confirm an Assassin being present is a good thing too in my book.

I agree with this one @Vandred basically true daykillers can claim without penalty, thereby being confirmed just by claiming, while fake daykillers get penalized. It keeps things the same while preventing fake daykill threats and allowing people to fake any non-daykill dayrole. Are you fine with that option?

Though that means someone who used to be a daykiller and gets Mentor recruited before claiming isn‘t allowed to claim that daykill role after being recruited. Which I think is fine.

Had to correct an oversight in the summary above for the no-penalty system, but anyway, I personally prefer that one to the penalty system.

- As it could probably be inferred, I am not fond of self-confirming roles, especially if they don't need you to do anything to get that confirmation. Best use of the roles would be to reveal D1 getting host-confirmed, get all the Dets to test their sanity on you on N1, and then shoot the first guilty player that they find. Even if you get killed right away you'll have done town a great service.
- I don't think the daykill threat issue is really an issue either; if you have no way to be trusted until you shoot, it shouldn't be that great of a pressuring weapon.
- Even if everyone started to pretend they can kill you on the spot if you don't reveal, I don't think that should have to be forbidden. Players should be expected to deal with any subtle or heavy pressure tactic that gets thrown at them (excluding personal attacks or the like), and a fake threat isn't much different from a real one - meaning you should be prepared to respond to the prossibility, if you're scum.


Not that I'm strongly opposed to the current system, though. It's just not optimal in the points described, for me. Could be I'm alone in that

 

[GrySun]

So it's not Assassin Investigator, it's actually Assassin Barkeeper

If you could get a new batch of random names for every Assassin victim you investigate, the culprit could very easily be out by D3 even in medium-sized games. I think a better variant would be that you get five (?) names the first time, and then one gets crossed out for every successive victim investigated.

Still, that would rely on luck and randomness way more than I'd like, since just a few "right" deaths or lynches could make it drastically easy to identify the Assassin.

Hey this Barkeeper only gets the names, making it less random and more reliable

Your idea works even better than mine actually, crossing out names is better.

As for the problems you have, is it luck or randomness if people lynch or kill some of that group of 5? Town would need to go fishing randomly in there until they get the Assassin, which with more townies ingame than mafia would statistically be a bad deal. And mafias wouldn‘t be killing people on that list of names would they?

Provided of course the Investigator reveals those as early as after 1 kill. If he keeps it hidden while the Assassin keeps killing more it could get a smaller list size, but that‘s the Assassin‘s risk to take. While for town lynches it‘d be random yes. But that can be solved either by testing the number.

For example, should he get 5 names to start with or more? % based of number of players maybe? This way some lucky lynched and nightkills don‘t immediately point at the Assassin(though I‘d argue even with perfect luck it‘d take 2 phases to get from 5 to 1 person). But if it‘s a higher number than 5 or % based then of course the number of names crossed out with further daykill investigations increases too.

Just need some good scale of number he gets after first daykill and of how many names to cross out? 1 could be too slow even in 5, considering it is supposed to be bad for the Assassin to keep killing, so 3 daykills while Investigator is alive should already be a big mistake and point at him somewhat reliably.

So it's merging Bodyguard with the idea of Daytime Doc, right? Could work fine if you ask me, I'd rather keep it simple. The detail that it wouldn't confirm an Assassin being present is a good thing too in my book.

Though keep in mind he only has a nightaction, and he protects his chosen person from daykills making them ineffective. So say a vigilante shot his target, that would be blocked and the shot wasted. Same as if a Det suddenly came out, he can‘t target him that day til next night. But sounds good to me. Maybe even have him be lynched instead of his bodyguard target, if he gets lynched, if we want to keep the Martyr alive in spirit

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 1, 2019, Original Post Date: Sep 1, 2019 ---

Not that I'm strongly opposed to the current system, though. It's just not optimal in the points described, for me. Could be I'm alone in that

Hm I do agree with your first point, but not as much with 2 and 3. Ideally then all we need is to remove daykillers being allowed to claim without shooting, which leads us to almost full penalties again..
Else is full no penalties, which has it‘s own issues.

And a half-half has issues too. So there‘s no perfect solution here, just which downsides we are most okay with.

 

[gnut]

Most bodyguards dont work 24hr shifts...think it's only natural for that role to be able to use their action day or nite.

I dont agree that it should block lynches(including vote influencing roles)...only kill attempts.

My 2cents

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 2, 2019, Original Post Date: Sep 1, 2019 ---

@GrySun
You know I'm always looking for a flashy role....
Why we used 2 janitors to make mortician more fun!!!

Damn @Erinyes @Demonspeed

 

[GrySun]

@Vandred @Farfalla @Lambu @Copy Panda @Hardy@Xadyu @Evil3ye @Ustegius @xi0 here are 4 suggestions how to handle Daytime role claims. Below that the current possibilities for Assassin counters - 4 changes for a current role and 2 new roles. Can you tell here if you like any of these and which ones?

1. No penalties for claims. You can say „I‘m Politician/Vigilante/etc.“ without any host penalties, regardless whether you really are that role or are lying.
2. Partially no penalties. Non daykill-daytime roles like Noble and Politician can be claimed both in truth or with lying. But only real daykillers(Vigilante/Cowboy..) can claim their real role without penalties, anyone lying about being a daykiller is penalized.
3. Mostly penalties. Non daykill-daytime roles like Noble and Politician can be claimed both in truth or with lying. Every daykill role can‘t be claimed without penalties, regardless whether you really are that role or are lying.
4. Full penalties. Roles usable at day aren‘t allowed to be claimed by anyone without penalties.

Then the matter with the Assassin counter:

Bodyguard Currently: The Bodyguard may pick a person he wants to protect each night. When this person is attacked by someone, the Bodyguard becomes the target instead.

Possible Changes

Bodyguard 1: The Bodyguard may pick a person he wants to protect each night. When this person is attacked by someone at night, the Bodyguard becomes the target instead. If both survive the night then his target can‘t die the next day to any daykilling role.

This version is the old BG + the effect of his target being immune to daykills at day.

Bodyguard 2: The Bodyguard may pick a person he wants to protect each night. When this person is attacked by someone at night, the Bodyguard becomes the target instead. If both survive the night then his target can‘t die the next day to any daykilling role. If his target were to get lynched the Bodyguard is lynched instead.

Same as version 1 except also includes the Martyr lynch protection.

Bodyguard 3: Each night the Bodyguard can pick a person he wants to protect and choose whether to protect at night or at day. If at night is chosen, if this person is attacked by someone at night, the Bodyguard becomes the target instead.
If at day is chosen, his target can‘t die the next day to any daykilling role.

A version that lets him choose every night between either protecting at night or protecting at day. A weaker version that needs the BG to decide which protection to give.

Bodyguard 4: Each day and night the Bodyguard can pick a person he wants to protect. When his night target is attacked by someone at night, the Bodyguard becomes the target instead. His day target can‘t die at day to any daykillers.

Strongest version, full freedom of separate night pick during night and day pick during day.

Possible New Roles

Daytime Guard: Can target a person each day who then is protected from any daykillers during that day. (Or make it so that he targets during the night instead of during the day, protecting the following day).

The Bodyguard idea except as it‘s own new role.

Tracker: Can investigate a dead player that was daykilled(day or night action?). On his first investigation he gets 5 names, one of which is the killer of that player. Every new investigation of a dead player that was daykilled by the same daykiller decreases the list of names by 1.

Meant to both help town find a reckless Assassin as well as put some risks on the Assassin kill usage, making them think twice whether to use it.

Thoughts?