The modified one, the current SK feels unfair to play with when you have Mentor and SS around, it's just too hard to beat the game with it. Not to mention it's alrdy a vanilla version of those two, as Van said, which sucks honestly lmao. No one likes to get a vanilla townie role inside their gatcha role PM, for example.
If put in huge games it is unfair yes. I was thinking more in the line of putting SK in games that are big enough for another killing party(or a setup that would allow that with fewer players), but also at the same time too small for Mentor.
Or, I think vanilla SK could work in more vanilla-games where there‘s not such a huge role inflation. Though arguably those are rarely to never hosted nowadays. Putting him in nowadays‘ games is rather unfair yes.
I see but the way the role is being proposed it can still be used in small vanilla games without being OP. In those small vanilla games, you usually have a very small quantity of investigating and blocking roles around (say 1 Det and 1 Hoe). It's very likely the SK would stay vanilla throughout the game and the small chances of getting a skill is still something the host should be able to add to the setup balance, imo. It's still a single guy against skilled parties, and a small game also plays against the SK in the sense that it's harder for him/her to hide among the crowd.
I see but the way the role is being proposed it can still be used in small vanilla games without being OP. In those small vanilla games, you usually have a very small quantity of investigating and blocking roles around (say 1 Det and 1 Hoe). It's very likely the SK would stay vanilla throughout the game and the small chances of getting a skill is still something the host should be able to add to the setup balance, imo. It's still a single guy against skilled parties, and a small game also plays against the SK in the sense that it's harder for him/her to hide among the crowd.
You‘re right, actually. He‘s still the same in certain setups in which I‘d use him anyway.
But it still needs to be defined more how it should work. As you currently wrote it, he only gets investigative, blocking and voting roles. However, would any of that actually help him?
He‘ll still die to the usual things SKs die to.
Ah, it does help. Won't make him broken tho, but I think that's the point. I mean, he could find out who's town and who's mafia/TP and decide his targets from there as a Det. Could use Spy, Mort, Investig. and so on to build his own claims and stories against others, helping him to blend in. Would survive better at night as a Hider (SKs are historically so unlucky lmao), block possible killers or check ups on him as a Hoe, twist the voting on his favor as a Vote related guy. It just gives him more options and imo adds a bit of fun to the role. We should assume he'll learn a skill that's relevant in the setup, since those are the ones the host would add for the town as well.
Ah, it does help. Won't make him broken tho, but I think that's the point. I mean, he could find out who's town and who's mafia/TP and decide his targets from there as a Det. Could use Spy, Mort, Investig. and so on to build his own claims and stories against others, helping him to blend in. Would survive better at night as a Hider (SKs are historically so unlucky lmao), block possible killers or check ups on him as a Hoe, twist the voting on his favor as a Vote related guy. It just gives him more options and imo adds a bit of fun to the role. We should assume he'll learn a skill that's relevant in the setup, since those are the ones the host would add for the town as well.
He‘ll need to kill a role first for it to work, excluding Hider as a possible role for him to get unless he‘s extremely lucky. Investigation roles help him make decisions but coming out with them will make him a target by the mafia, and they don‘t ensure him not being lynched either since he‘d always be a second version of an already killed role. Plus he can only use it for one night no?
It kinda heavily depends on the setup and whether he kills the right people. The change won’t make him worse, but I‘m unsure whether it‘ll change anything with the fairness you mentioned, since TPs are naturally disadvantaged.
I‘d maybe add Mafia Roles as roles he can use once if he kills them, but I‘m fine with testing that SK version.
Imo he should be able to use it every night along with his kill, once he gets it. But he can only get one skill, the first one that fits those criteria that he kills.
You could include mafia roles to his pool, but imo limiting it to mafia roles only will make him acquire the skill too late, unless he's lucky (and you'd have to limit what he acquires, since some things would make none to little sense or make him OP, for example Mafia Mason, Mafia Apprentice, Assassin or Mafia Pirate).
Imo he should be able to use it every night along with his kill, once he gets it. But he can only get one skill, the first one that fits those criteria that he kills.
You could include mafia roles to his pool, but imo limiting it to mafia roles only will make him acquire the skill too late, unless he's lucky (and you'd have to limit what he acquires, since some things would make none to little sense or make him OP, for example Mafia Mason, Mafia Apprentice, Assassin or Mafia Pirate).
Ah misunderstood, thought it lets him use it one night, so he can do one action per each role he kills, like Prostitute, Det, Noble. If it‘s permanent then some mafia roles would be pretty strong or broken.
Isn‘t it a bit flawed that he can‘t switch though? What if the first role he kills on N1 when nobody claimed is a Naive Det, he‘s stuck on that even when he kills a Prostitute later. Which leaves it more up to luck than I‘d like whether he has something to work with or not.
Hmmm maybe we could learn the role of newer victims and then decide if he'll keep his previous skill or use a new one? But always keep one at the time, imo.
Hmhm, how would it work? Post-death, or a 1-time ability the Witch can use anytime? Could be pretty OP if she holds onto it until there‘s basically a confirmed mafia, and turn him into a Burden for an extra heavy blow. May even be stronger than an outright kill tbh
Been thinking about it, but the "Freeman curse" was more like a wild idea to elaborate. Besides I pictured the Witch's curse as something similar to Apprentice (having to cast the curse first, then activate it, needing 2 actions on the same person)
On the SK update, I would be cool with making it learn the role of its victim each Night, but he has to keep only one of his choice. It would give a lot of gameplay possibilities and fun.
Alright, haven't done some role suggestions in a while. Here we go.
I want more vote-related Townie votes because we got only 3 but voting is a pretty big deal in Mafia if not the biggest as everyone can take part in it. Here are my suggestions:
This role is simple to understand, is not OP as its might is limited but will still be enjoyable to the player having it as it means "messing" with the vote and surprising everyone. Only one player dies just not the one everyone was expecting to. Maybe the Hacker saved a townie's life, maybe Mafia scumbag will go phew or maybe a mafia dies as chosen by the Hacker. In any case this role will be fun to play kinda like the prosecutor but in a very different vote-related way.
I already suggested this role once but it never got tested despite some hosts liking it. I think a townie role that from day 2 on might have a chance to keep another townie alive for one more day if the Judge believes in the about to be lynched player would add a lot to the game. This role could for somebody else be a gamechanger if you needed one more night to prove yourself. It could also mean that the Mafia enjoys a day-phase without getting lynched despite being the lynch victim but that not knowing is what makes such roles fun, else we would not have badass cowboy or prosecutor.
I am not sure about this role because it is basically a very strong Martyr role which would make the Martyr obsolete. Why risk your life if somebody else got a power that prevents someone to be lynched. Maybe I change the outcome of the Attorney to committing suicide if one of his clients was a not-townie role though I like this losing his role more.
The idea behind this role is for somebody to be able at night to chose somebody to not be lynched next day phase. As he can be blocked, redirected or his client can be killed this night his power is not OP plus it gives some people the enjoyable feeling of one day not being a possible lynch target. Still could be killed by a BC or DA, not sure if a prosecutor counts though due his kill being an additional lynching.
Now I also noticed we got no "recruiting" TP roles besides the Mentor with his Mentee which is a bit boring. So I took it upon myself to have a 3rd party secret society that will be very differently from Mafia and 2nd Mafia and ofc MentorxMentee. Read and tell me your thoughts please:
The idea is to have a 3rd party team that is very different from a 2nd Mafia as a) it starts the game with a sole leader and not a full team b) it recruits up to a certain number of people thus taking away townie roles c) it all comes down to protecting the Cult Leader because if he dies it is game over for the Cult unlike with the Mafia and 2nd Mafia which can continue even if their boss dies if they even have such a role in their roaster. Also unlike the Boss the Cult Leader still appears as guilty like a regular 3rd role.
I wanted an evil group that is growing in secret where the leader never knows if his target is his last one or not where he has to chose what kinda direction he wants his cult to go, full protection, full killing power or a mix of both.
Guardian is a better bodyguard.
Hitman is the only one who can actively kill.
Mistress is a blocker.
The Doc keeps the Leader safe though I am not sure about the naive part, I picked that so that the doc might be able to protect other members of the cult but maybe an insane doc is also a good choice though that would mean adding a potential 2nd killing option to the cult and that is a bit too OP for my taste. Also this way might also be the way we handle the Mafia doc, either 100% protect chance on Mafia Boss/50% on rest of Mafia or on all Mafia Members 100% protection if chosen as target.
The Cult Strapbomb was a cooler bomb version in my mind as he decides the day he dies. I also thought about giving him the chance to activate his bomb by writing "FOR THE GRAND LEADER!" which will make everyone go apeshitcrazy and have the host kill the strapbomb and a random not-Cult-member-player but to balance that randomness the day phase ends immediately without a lynching. That way the Strapbomb could act as day protector of a cult member or as a diversion to make people think he was protecting the cult leader from being lynched. I didn't chose that option however because I wanted to know what you guys think about that option. It sounds cool in my head and would certainly be a big bang to end the dayphase with a lot of tension as anyone but the cult players could become a victim plus it means "stealing" the lynching process for one day phase which depending on the game status could be a game-changer for the cult even if it means losing one of its members.
Taggin @Evil3ye@xi0@Ustegius@Farfalla@GrySun . I think I can only tag 5 people at once? I will tag the rest once somebody wrote another post. Or can I just add 5 new tags with another post after this one?
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I think this Version of a possible Mafia Doctor to keep the Mafias partial safe from night kills (like it happened to me this time and way too many other times to other Mafias in other games) makes the most sense. Make it that it can protect only one role really well, obviously the Boss, and the other roles only partial while not being able to protect any other players. I think it could cover a niche job left uncovered in the mafia - protecting own members from harm.
The townie roles are too broken xD
For me it's a no except for Attorney. I'll leave that one for the rest to judge, since it's the single one that wouldn't potentially affect the whole game outcome with a single move. Ah, it should be a one time only thing, imo.
The Cult thing is an in game custom made mafia team. It sounds cool at first but I can't imagine how hard it would be to build setups with those in game, so another no from me.
There is no need of an anti town doctor, given that regular doctors already can be convinced to get the wrong targets. Not only that, but the less we leave things to chance, the better for the game and the players.
want more vote-related Townie votes because we got only 3 but voting is a pretty big deal in Mafia if not the biggest as everyone can take part in it. Here are my suggestions
First James, all of these are not „voting related roles“ at all imo. Neither of them work with votes, but directly affect the lynch, disregarding other votes. I dislike this idea, and would prefer if you actually made roles that are voting related. Be it conditionals like X happens when you are voted Y times, or 2nd highest lynch target when day ends, or 0 votes on yourself at day end etc.
Or, roles that have active ways to affect votes or the count?
Puts 1 player in charge of the day‘s lynch, I don‘t like it. Sure it can be fun for the player but imo the daylynch is something all/most players should have a say in. Even for a 1-time skill it‘s too much.
Is the lynch postponed, ie. next day 2 must be lynched? Or the lynch itself doesn‘t happen? The former is a lot better than the later, but I still dislike both. A day should end with a lynch.
My favorite of all you suggested, but very unclear. How does it „turn out“ if his target wasn‘t town? If one of his targets die later? I generally don‘t see the benefit for town for this though, or the gameplay with it. Either someone uses it on a player he likes or on a player he trusts but others distrust. So it‘s only a good pro-town ability if it‘s on some smart townie while the rest of town are making a big mistake. Neutral on this, could have it‘s uses but both pretty situational and requires to be on a player with very good judgement that game.
The whole Cult thing is a mess. You must build a game fully around it, you can‘t just have it in a game with town and mafias. And it only works in large games, since Mentor-like recruitment is inherently very broken and intended to be so. Did you try building a role list from a host pov? Write me a setup of a certain size where it‘d be balanced, then do the numbers on different situations: how many of which team are still alive in which cases by start of day 4?
But Mafia Doctor is already a role being tested? Look at the 2nd sticky post of this thread. Or are you suggesting changing it? If so, I dislike the change. I dislike cointoss-heavy roles in general, and this would make the Doctor less useful.
Mafia Gambler (Mafia): Can once a day target a player who hasn't locked his vote yet. There is a 50/50 chance for either Success - The Gambler tells the host who he wants his target to vote for and the host then notifies the targeted player to change his vote accordingly in the same way as "The Politician" Townie role. Or Failure - The targeted player can't get killed by the Gambler's mafia on the following night. If the Gambler fails three times his role permanently and irreversibly changes into Unskilled Mafia Member. (Game 54)
No seriously, Gambler is supposed to be the Mafia‘s version of Politician. An outright Mafia Politician would be pretty broken imo, so this unreliable version works best. Or make the Mafia Politician a 1-time use.
Alright, haven't done some role suggestions in a while. Here we go.
I want more vote-related Townie votes because we got only 3 but voting is a pretty big deal in Mafia if not the biggest as everyone can take part in it. Here are my suggestions:
This role is simple to understand, is not OP as its might is limited but will still be enjoyable to the player having it as it means "messing" with the vote and surprising everyone. Only one player dies just not the one everyone was expecting to. Maybe the Hacker saved a townie's life, maybe Mafia scumbag will go phew or maybe a mafia dies as chosen by the Hacker. In any case this role will be fun to play kinda like the prosecutor but in a very different vote-related way.
I already suggested this role once but it never got tested despite some hosts liking it. I think a townie role that from day 2 on might have a chance to keep another townie alive for one more day if the Judge believes in the about to be lynched player would add a lot to the game. This role could for somebody else be a gamechanger if you needed one more night to prove yourself. It could also mean that the Mafia enjoys a day-phase without getting lynched despite being the lynch victim but that not knowing is what makes such roles fun, else we would not have badass cowboy or prosecutor.
I am not sure about this role because it is basically a very strong Martyr role which would make the Martyr obsolete. Why risk your life if somebody else got a power that prevents someone to be lynched. Maybe I change the outcome of the Attorney to committing suicide if one of his clients was a not-townie role though I like this losing his role more.
The idea behind this role is for somebody to be able at night to chose somebody to not be lynched next day phase. As he can be blocked, redirected or his client can be killed this night his power is not OP plus it gives some people the enjoyable feeling of one day not being a possible lynch target. Still could be killed by a BC or DA, not sure if a prosecutor counts though due his kill being an additional lynching.
I dont like roles that change the course of lynches "just because". I heavily dislike them irl set ups when there's way less time to decide, will dislike them even more when we have like +20 hours to decide.
Lynches should be irreversible and definitive, its Town's most powerful weapon and greatest bane so it shouldn't be subjected to a single player's will, so all the Townie roles here are a no-go for me.
Now I also noticed we got no "recruiting" TP roles besides the Mentor with his Mentee which is a bit boring. So I took it upon myself to have a 3rd party secret society that will be very differently from Mafia and 2nd Mafia and ofc MentorxMentee. Read and tell me your thoughts please:
The idea is to have a 3rd party team that is very different from a 2nd Mafia as a) it starts the game with a sole leader and not a full team b) it recruits up to a certain number of people thus taking away townie roles c) it all comes down to protecting the Cult Leader because if he dies it is game over for the Cult unlike with the Mafia and 2nd Mafia which can continue even if their boss dies if they even have such a role in their roaster. Also unlike the Boss the Cult Leader still appears as guilty like a regular 3rd role.
I wanted an evil group that is growing in secret where the leader never knows if his target is his last one or not where he has to chose what kinda direction he wants his cult to go, full protection, full killing power or a mix of both.
Guardian is a better bodyguard.
Hitman is the only one who can actively kill.
Mistress is a blocker.
The Doc keeps the Leader safe though I am not sure about the naive part, I picked that so that the doc might be able to protect other members of the cult but maybe an insane doc is also a good choice though that would mean adding a potential 2nd killing option to the cult and that is a bit too OP for my taste. Also this way might also be the way we handle the Mafia doc, either 100% protect chance on Mafia Boss/50% on rest of Mafia or on all Mafia Members 100% protection if chosen as target.
The Cult Strapbomb was a cooler bomb version in my mind as he decides the day he dies. I also thought about giving him the chance to activate his bomb by writing "FOR THE GRAND LEADER!" which will make everyone go apeshitcrazy and have the host kill the strapbomb and a random not-Cult-member-player but to balance that randomness the day phase ends immediately without a lynching. That way the Strapbomb could act as day protector of a cult member or as a diversion to make people think he was protecting the cult leader from being lynched. I didn't chose that option however because I wanted to know what you guys think about that option. It sounds cool in my head and would certainly be a big bang to end the dayphase with a lot of tension as anyone but the cult players could become a victim plus it means "stealing" the lynching process for one day phase which depending on the game status could be a game-changer for the cult even if it means losing one of its members.
This reminds me so much of the Santa Mafia project @Vandred
It looks interesting and could have potential with some major tweaks and adjustments (like Guardian and Doctor being redundant or the strapbomb being insanely overpowered).
The problem lies in the viability, this kind of Custom Mafia or "SuperMentor" would only work in a very specific set up that allows Town and mafia to counteract against the game-changing actions of the Cult, be it a special mechanic, a role list packed with defensive roles or the implementation of new roles that outright counter the Cult.
In other words it would be difficult to make it happen without some insane balance break happening. Third Parties are supposed to be, well, "third parties" that move with parallel interests to those of Town and Mafia, not a whole new kind of mafia.
No seriously, Gambler is supposed to be the Mafia‘s version of Politician. An outright Mafia Politician would be pretty broken imo, so this unreliable version works best. Or make the Mafia Politician a 1-time use.
Why, you would be forcing someone to change the vote, but you would be exposing yourself in the process too. I think it would require testing, sure, but I wouldn't discard it as broken asap.
Unreliability sucks for mafia game and there's a lot of that here.
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It's not more broken than half of the mafia roles at all imo
