Discussion New Roles and New Rules Suggestion Thread

[GrySun]

Submissions for new roles need to follow the next format in order to be considered:

I. [Place Holder Name]

II. [Affiliation]

III. [Short Description]

IV. [Long Description/Idea/Premise/Scope]

V. [Priority/RoleType/Interactions/other Specifics]

Spoiler: Examples of Approved roles

I. Troublemaker

II. Town

III. Can once per game make a Day phase lynch be the top 2 voted people instead of regular 1 top voted person. Every player has 2 votes but cannot vote the same player twice.

IV. PMs the host on the night before the day he wishes to use his power on. Host announces at start of day that the 2 top voted players will be lynched.
Everyone gets 2 votes that they can use on 2 individual players. Both can be moved once like usual. Example:
!votekill1 PlayerX
!votekill2 PlayerY
!votelock2 (locks on PlayerY).

Any other format is also fine as long as players specify who they are voting and if it's a new vote or they are changing their first one.

V. Doesn't have a Priority, happens at the end of night after all other actions. Doesn't target another player. Primary role.

Since it happens at the end of a phase, the player can be both blocked and killed to prevent it happening.

I. Psychiatrist

II. Townie

III. The Psychiatrist investigates one person per night phase to see if the player has a Secondary Role. They get a "Your target has a secondary role" if that is the case, and a "Your target does not have a secondary role" if it's not. The Psychiatrist does not find out the allegiance of the target.

IV. It's a counter for scum secondaries without outright revealing them, leaving room for guess work and player reading.

V. Priority 2, Primary Role.

Current roles Approved for testing here

Rules on including those in a game:

• A host can take any of these roles and test them in their game. Depending on results from testing the role it will either be included into the Role list or need more changes/testing.
• A host at the very least has to announce in the opening post of the game that new roles are being tested, or alternatively even more specifically reveal the roles that are being tested.

Link to the last update post with the roles that are either close to approval or were not approved: here.

 

[GrySun]

Why, you would be forcing someone to change the vote, but you would be exposing yourself in the process too. I think it would require testing, sure, but I wouldn't discard it as broken asap.

Unreliability sucks for mafia game and there's a lot of that here.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 17, 2020, Original Post Date: Feb 17, 2020 ---

It's not more broken than half of the mafia roles at all imo

No other mafia role can directly affect/mess up the town lynch, which is town's main anti-mafia tool to use. Makes it easy saving mafias as you don't have to justify your vote changes, and it's hardly exposed unless you claim Politician.

If others agree with you we can have it up for testing sure, I just see it as quite OP atm. A townie will be lynched early phases near 100%.

 

[Farfalla]

Hmmm Idk it's just one vote. Games have been quite big, so I don't see a Mafia Politician breaking the game. Also, it comes with the risk of backfiring later on, when things are revealed and you gotta talk on not only your vote but also the ones you changed for someone else. When we removed the secrecy clause of the Politician, it became very powerful cause now it's a role that is quite easy to confirm in a very early moment of the game. It greatly helps Detectives, for example. It's hard for the Gambler to have advantage with that 'cause, the moment he fails, he becomes completely exposed, the risks of faking Politician are just too big, and can also result in skill impairment. Idk I never liked Gambler... Imo it's like the damn BK, too unpredictable... it's awful not to be able to rely on your assets to follow your strategies when luck plays a big role in it... I'd support testing a Mafia Politician.

 

[James Rye]

@GrySun Damn shame about the Martyr, I liked the idea of a day phase bodyguard against day kills.

What if the Hacker can only exchange once the highest voted player vs the lowest voted player (not one with 0 votes)? That would put some restrictions to it. Or even better, he works directly with the votes. Like once per game he can pick a target from which all votes will be transferred to another target at the end of the day phase. Like gnut gets picked as transferer and Juviii as receiver. People vote thrice for gnut and once for Juviii. At the end of the phase gnut got 0 votes and Juviii 4. And to prevent the OPness of the Hacker, like the Attorney the Hacker can use this action only at night meaning he can be blocked or redirected or killed before he uses his action plus he cannot know for sure if the people will vote for the transfer target or if the receiver target gets enough votes on its own to get into the voting dangerzone. It would be much weaker than the current version and it would work with the votes then without having a certain chance of a lynch change.

Attorney I thought should have a drawback so yeah "turns out" was meant as if somebody gets killed later and he was not townie then the Attorney loses his role. Ofc we can just leave that out and just have somebody be able to make someone immune to lynching for a day phase. That power alone could work in favor for any party in the game like it does with doctor but ofc like a doc you would not run around announcing you are a doc because mafia would kill you or block you so Attorney would have to keep a low profile.

The Judge could work the way that either next day 2 get lynched or the way that he forbids the highest vote counter to die meaning the 2nd highest dies. We have often races of two people being neck at neck with a sudden vote change at the end. If the Judge uses his power to adjourn then the highest voted for would live to see another phase whereas judgement is passed onto the 2nd highest voted for. A bit like we had this game right now but like only once per game.

@Lambu

So if a Cult Leader could only chose Mistress, Hitman and Strapbomb with Strapbomb being totally whack like ending the dayphase once he goes boom you'd think it would be a fun recruiting third party role? Because then the CL would be at constant danger of dying at night if he got not sure protection and so would his followers.
The Idea was like the Mastermind idea I had that knows what 3rd roles are in the game and could recruit all other 3rd roles in the game but ofc doesn't know who got a 3rd role. But Gry said we had too little 3rd roles for that yet so yeah, trying to think up ways to get more 3rd roles into the game that make sense.

 

[GrySun]

@GrySun Damn shame about the Martyr, I liked the idea of a day phase bodyguard against day kills

That functionality is now in the Bodyguard role. Seriously read up the few lines of changes over the last year Takes like 3 mins.

 

[James Rye]

@GrySun So what about the changes of Hacker and Judge?

 

[uberfayt]

@GrySun So what about the changes of Hacker and Judge?

I like the latest version of Hacker, but I fail to see why would an actual townie even want to use it. Unless he has a secondary role, like Lover or Traitor...it feels like a gimmicky role, maybe it could fit with some specific game mechanics or setting (like a game with multiple hackers, that could be fun).

Also, why not introduce some activation conditions for some roles, like "Role X can only be activated when the player reaches Y posts (per phase)/for every Y posts". It would solve afking problems, and furthermore would not incite spam since that would be like admitting you have said role.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 17, 2020, Original Post Date: Feb 17, 2020 ---

Regarding Lovers, why not have the threesome candidate have the following additional effect:

"If the threesome has guessed one of the lovers (but not both), then when he dies, his spirit stays and keeps them from harm. Automatically protects a lover from one kill (except day lynches). This is a once per game effect. In the case the threesome has not guessed any of the lovers and died, then the protection effect has a only a 50% success rate."

 

[Hardy]

Ah yeah, the threesome harms the lovers more than what it actually helps them. Maybe it should be considered for deletion.

 

[uberfayt]

Not sure if smthg similar to these roles was proposed before, but here I go:

Samurai (townie):
The samurai may pick a person he wants to protect at night. In exchange for his life, any kill action towards this person fails during that night (+the following day? not sure...), and the attacker(s) become unskilled.


Mercenary (third party):
The mercenary gets to pick a person (client) at night and offers them his services (list of services is up to the host, but it should include at least one protection effect, and one hindering effect, like NVD infection). The client either accepts or declines. If the client accepts, then he picks one of the services, and in exchange, the mercenary gets to know their allegiance. If contact is successfully established with a client, the mercenary can't target that same client in future nights. If the mercenary successfully used his role twice, then his allegiance changes, and his new one is decided based on the allegiances he got from his clients:

• If he becomes town, the mercenary gains the following effect: "If the mercenary targets a non-townie, then he dies."
• If he becomes mafia, the mercenary joins them as unskilled mafia. If he uses his role, then his teammates become unskilled during that night. (he can't use it's role the night he goes for a kill).
• If it's Third Party again, the mercenary has his role changed into Serial killer (and wins according to SK's win condition).

If the role is claimed while it is not in the game, the claiming player gets hostkilled.

What do you think of these? I particularly like the mercenary, which could potentially replace SK?

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 17, 2020, Original Post Date: Feb 17, 2020 ---

The PM the client (mercenary's target) receives from the host looks like this:
"A Mercenary has contacted you and offers you his services. Woul you accept or decline? Note that If you accept, the mercenary will know your alligeance."

If the client accepts:
"The following is the list of the services. you may choose one of them.
_Service 1.
_Service 2.
etc..."

Still haven't thought about the priority yet, but he should be blockable.

Edit: added some restrictions to the mercenary role that I forgot to initially put.

Edit 2: samurai will die after using his power.

Edit 3: more restrictions on Mafia Mercenary. Also, instead of him choosing his new allegiance, it is decided based on the allegiances of the clients he contacted.

 

[James Rye]

@uberfayt The idea is that the Hacker protects one player while making life more difficult for another. Actually I think if it is a Night Action I think it'd makes sense to make it a constant ability so that each day players can't be quite sure which players got targeted by the Hacker same as the Hacker can't be sure if his transfer target gets any vote or if his receiver target will actually get any votes on his own at all.

Hacker (Townie)
Night Action - Can pick two players as Transfer and as Receiver target. In the next day phase at the end of the day the hosts will transfer all votes given to the Transfer Target to the Receiver target.

The idea is to have a "Joker" basically someone who messes with the votings but can be blocked, redirected or killed and who knows that townies might not be too happy with that messing around but his ability does protect someone he trust from being lynched and increases the chances of somebody he distrusts getting lynched so he keeps doing it. The role is not too complicated while having an effect on the votings itself without being OP like deciding who dies. So I think with those changes it is a solid role that could be tested out in some future games.

 

[Lambu]

@Lambu

So if a Cult Leader could only chose Mistress, Hitman and Strapbomb with Strapbomb being totally whack like ending the dayphase once he goes boom you'd think it would be a fun recruiting third party role? Because then the CL would be at constant danger of dying at night if he got not sure protection and so would his followers.
The Idea was like the Mastermind idea I had that knows what 3rd roles are in the game and could recruit all other 3rd roles in the game but ofc doesn't know who got a 3rd role. But Gry said we had too little 3rd roles for that yet so yeah, trying to think up ways to get more 3rd roles into the game that make sense.

What I meant was that Guardian and Cult Doctor are way too similar, one should be taken out, probably the Doc.
Then the Strapbomb has to be outright nerfed.

I just have the feeling that in terms of recruitment Mentor is already quite enough. We already had something similar to this cult idea in the Candy game and no one was fond of it.
Still wont say "no" to it, it just needs a lot of thought behind it to work.

 

[James Rye]

What about the new Hacker Version @Lambu ?

 

[Lambu]

What about the new Hacker Version @Lambu ?

Im sorry man I simply dislike roles that mess with lynches so I wont support any role that works with that idea.

 

[James Rye]

Im sorry man I simply dislike roles that mess with lynches so I wont support any role that works with that idea.

But the new version doesn't change the lynch it only changes votes from one target to another and it is a night action thus the user can't be fully sure that his transfer even gets vote or that if he does that it will be enough together with the receiver target to get to nr.1 spot.

 

[Copy Panda]

That hacker ability seems more appropriate for a non-town, honestly, which incidentally also makes it broken.

 

[James Rye]

That hacker ability seems more appropriate for a non-town, honestly, which incidentally also makes it broken.

Yeah I was thinking about that as well. Like 3rd role? In that case it should have a win condition like Santa with his 5 nights 5 gifts successfully handed over. Kinda like this:

Hacker (Third Party)
The Hacker tries to mess with the voting system by choosing a target each night from which he transfers votes to a second target. At the end of the day phase the Host will transfer the votes from the first to the second target. The Hacker wins if he kills 3 Players using that ability.

Or, what I think is even better, go about the votes itself.

Hacker (Third Party)
The Hacker tries to mess with the voting system by choosing a target each night from which he will steal the votes from on the next day. All votes given to that one particular player will disappear at the end of the day phase and go to a bank account of the Hacker. The Hacker wins once he reaches 20 votes.

We can also change that win condition to getting the number of votes of players in the game. Basically he can get between 0 and a lot of votes but since his action is at night he never knows if he doesn't get blocked, redirected or his target killed when choosing a target PLUS he cannot be sure if the other players will actually vote on mass or at all on that particular target. Especially in the early days the Hacker will likely pick the wrong target and get 0 votes. Also the Hacker will need to try to get people to form a bandwagon on his picked target which will draw attention to him.

So I do not see this role broken at all. As townie it would just move around votes. As Third Party it would either need to try to kill using that ability or steal enough votes to win the Game, both are hard win conditions to reach. And as shown by Santa, that is not as easy as it sounds like if your target is killed or you get blocked. So I see that as pretty fair and testable.

I like the 2nd version with the votes more because it is simpler as then there is only one target. Plus this way as long as the Hacker has not by luck or by skill (aka talking people into a bandwagon) chosen the lynched target he will get little to no votes while already drawing attention to himself. And if you go by standard votes then even the lynch victims usually get around 6 at most in the latter days so it is highly unlikely the Hacker ever gets 20+ votes in one single day. Heck, a lot of our games doesn't have 20+ players.

 

[Copy Panda]

Hum the first one is tough, does the death has to happen by lynch? Or is moving votes to a target and having them day killed also valid? Maybe not this, but the spirit of the role is interesting.

The second one is interesting too, but a bit too under the hood. Unlike other blue roles, you could cosplay as a politician and use your power to 'prove' yourself (which blues generally can't).

Generally, the spirit of winning should be surviving, not playing your own game. As far as wincons go, SS I think is as far as it should go

 

[Lambu]

The third party Hacker sounds cool, still not liking the idea of directly messing lynches but its much better than the Townie version.

 

[James Rye]

Hum the first one is tough, does the death has to happen by lynch? Or is moving votes to a target and having them day killed also valid? Maybe not this, but the spirit of the role is interesting.

The second one is interesting too, but a bit too under the hood. Unlike other blue roles, you could cosplay as a politician and use your power to 'prove' yourself (which blues generally can't).

Generally, the spirit of winning should be surviving, not playing your own game. As far as wincons go, SS I think is as far as it should go

Well since the Hacker has no direct way of killing unlike most other 3rd parties I thought he would profit from a win condition like SS does who also lacks the kill-ability. Else it would be too hard to win on your own as Hacker.

The third party Hacker sounds cool, still not liking the idea of directly messing lynches but its much better than the Townie version.

Thanks. Like I said, the cases were the Hacker can really steal the votes of the number 1 voted lynch victim are not that high, maybe late into the game if the Hacker survives for so long. Same for the other version where he redirects votes. Not sure which which version you liked more.

I just think that Solo 3rd parties got a hard time winning games which is why I wanted to have a recruiting role that goes beyond 2 players.
But how about the Cult Leader not being able to recruit more than another player but that recruiting that other one gives him his killing ability similar to Mentor and Mentee but in a different way, like this:

Cult Leader (Third Party)
If the Cult Leader does not have a living Cult Fanatic, at Night he can recruit one. During the night he can talk to his Fanatic in private. If the Leader has a living Fanatic, at day his Fanatic can kill someone per pm to the host. The Fanatic dies together with his target at the end of the day. If the Leader tries to recruit a non-townie, that non-townie is killed instead of recruited.

Cult Fanatic (Third Party)
A Cult Fanatic is a player who has been recruited by a Cult Leader. They can talk to the Leader privately at Night, but will die if the Leader dies (If the Fanatic dies, that just frees up the Leader to recruit someone else during the next Night). The Fanatic is the one who sends a pm to the Host for a daykill and dies together with his target at the end of the day-phase.

Basically Mentor and Mentee but with Mentee being a "bomb" kind of killer who is allowed to do a day kill but at the cost of his own life. I think that way we avoid the "complexity" of the own Cult group while still having another recruit-skilled third party that is different to the Mentor.

 

[Lambu]

Well since the Hacker has no direct way of killing unlike most other 3rd parties I thought he would profit from a win condition like SS does who also lacks the kill-ability. Else it would be too hard to win on your own as Hacker.



Thanks. Like I said, the cases were the Hacker can really steal the votes of the number 1 voted lynch victim are not that high, maybe late into the game if the Hacker survives for so long. Same for the other version where he redirects votes. Not sure which which version you liked more.

I just think that Solo 3rd parties got a hard time winning games which is why I wanted to have a recruiting role that goes beyond 2 players.
But how about the Cult Leader not being able to recruit more than another player but that recruiting that other one gives him his killing ability similar to Mentor and Mentee but in a different way, like this:

Cult Leader (Third Party)
If the Cult Leader does not have a living Cult Fanatic, at Night he can recruit one. During the night he can talk to his Fanatic in private. If the Leader has a living Fanatic, at day his Fanatic can kill someone per pm to the host. The Fanatic dies together with his target at the end of the day. If the Leader tries to recruit a non-townie, that non-townie is killed instead of recruited.

Cult Fanatic (Third Party)
A Cult Fanatic is a player who has been recruited by a Cult Leader. They can talk to the Leader privately at Night, but will die if the Leader dies (If the Fanatic dies, that just frees up the Leader to recruit someone else during the next Night). The Fanatic is the one who sends a pm to the Host for a daykill and dies together with his target at the end of the day-phase.

Basically Mentor and Mentee but with Mentee being a "bomb" kind of killer who is allowed to do a day kill but at the cost of his own life. I think that way we avoid the "complexity" of the own Cult group while still having another recruit-skilled third party that is different to the Mentor.

Way too similar to the Mentor I guess, tho seeing townies exploding every dayphase would be hilarious in a way. Its like a "memefied" Mentor, it would be fun to see it in a particular game.

As for the Hacker, my qualm about it is not how much success rate he has or anything like that, but how his purpose is to mess the lynch up. The concept is fun, and I appreciate the thought behind it James, but my opinion is that Town shouldn't have its only weapon against Mafias-TPs played with, its not fair however you look at it.

 

[GrySun]

New Role

Mafia Infector (Mafia)
The Mafia Infector might choose a player each Night to infect who then can't vote in the following Day Phase, because he gets a cold.

Pretty much Sickly Mafia. Sickly isn‘t an instant-confirmation role anymore with this, making it more fun about explaining who you infected and why, to convince others. I also think it‘s a nice utility role for mafia and far less OP than a Mafia Noble.

Thoughts?