Fall NFL Thread

[xi0]

About Tom Brady, obviously, due to me being a noob, he is just a name who happen to sleep with Gisele Bundchen. I know he is supposed to be a legend and that he was named MVP but he didn't impress me much and I have trouble to understand why he was named mvp. Wilson did longer passes, can run (something Brady would almost never do) and before that last atrocious call was for me better than Brady. And Wilson is still young and can still improve.

Even a noob gets it!

Brady will never be the best all-time for me. Yeah, he's a winner and does put up some stats, but he isn't enough of a complete player. Most of his success relies on the West Coast Offenses dink and dunk, which don't get me wrong, you can obviously win with it. But I think better QBs could run that offense in their sleep.

 

[FrostyMouse]

Even a noob gets it!

Brady will never be the best all-time for me. Yeah, he's a winner and does put up some stats, but he isn't enough of a complete player. Most of his success relies on the West Coast Offenses dink and dunk, which don't get me wrong, you can obviously win with it. But I think better QBs could run that offense in their sleep.

Please, shut up, hater. At least have some respect once in a while. Your trash talk after the Ravens won and before this SB was kind of pathetic.

Also, your trash talk about DeflateGate, which was basically proven to be false, was rather pathetic as well. So, really, stop.

 

[gnut]

gary...you know I hate brady the most....dolphin fan *here*

but the guy makes them throws...like wtf

 

[xi0]

Please, shut up, hater. At least have some respect once in a while. Your trash talk after the Ravens won and before this SB was kind of pathetic.

Also, your trash talk about DeflateGate, which was basically proven to be false, was rather pathetic as well. So, really, stop.

Again, not sure why you care about "trashtalk" when you just won. Your priorities seem sort of "off" man.

And none of what I've said is trashtalk, it's what I think. I think it'd be a bit more obvious if I was just trying to get a rise out of you.

I don't remember saying anything after the Ravens won...but ok

gary...you know I hate brady the most....dolphin fan *here*

but the guy makes them throws...like wtf

So? He's won 4 times, I'd hope he can "make them throws"

 

[FrostyMouse]

Again, not sure why you care about "trashtalk" when you just won. Your priorities seem sort of "off" man.

And none of what I've said is trashtalk, it's what I think. I think it'd be a bit more obvious if I was just trying to get a rise out of you.

I don't remember saying anything after the Ravens won...but ok



So? He's won 4 times, I'd hope he can "make them throws"

The point is that you came off really bitter yesterday/today. I was respectful when the Ravens won, so, you know, you be respectful now in turn. Don't be one of those fans.

Look, I get that you'll be one of those Montana guys, or maybe even a Peyton guy, but your comment made it sound like you didn't even think Brady was a top 5 QB.

 

[Jammin]

I think Brady is an excellent QB. In the last 10 years I think the rankings go.

1) Payton Manning.
2) Tom Brady.

I don't want to minimize that but to be honest I think fans and sports media can get carried away in talking about how great he is all time. I consider him about #5 on the all time great list. I think Manning is better. I think Montana was better. I think Marino was better. I think Johnny Unitas was better.

That's not a knock on him because those are all fantastic players but I think he's played the game in a era were passing is easier than it's ever been and he's played for the #1 best coach of all time(who cheats).

 

[xi0]

The point is that you came off really bitter yesterday/today. I was respectful when the Ravens won, so, you know, you be respectful now in turn. Don't be one of those fans.

Look, I get that you'll be one of those Montana guys, or maybe even a Peyton guy, but your comment made it sound like you didn't even think Brady was a top 5 QB.

I don't see how any post I've made where I wasn't joking around was bitter. Not really sure what there could be to be disrespectful about when we won, so I don't get your point. You were handed that victory by a terrible throw. Yes, you were competitive enough to win either way, but that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

And what's wrong if I don't think he's a Top 5 QB? It's called an opinion. It isn't me being bitter, man So sorry I don't think Brady is the best QB of all time! I'd take Aaron Rodgers, Peyton Manning in his prime, Marino, Montana, Unitas....hell, I might even take Big Ben in his best form. They're just better all-around players IMO. Brady wouldn't have the the awards and accolades if it wasn't for their team and Belichick...hell, he might have never even started a game without him, if you really think about it. Not trying to minimize his accomplishments, because that would be stupid considering I root for someone like Flacco.

And about the deflategate thing - I never acted like I was in the lockeroom, but when reports come out you form your own opinion naturally. The only people who didn't have any doubt at first was you and all of the other NE fans. But given what's gone on in the past with NE...I mean, come on. And the NFL will have the final word on that anyway. Notice I didn't mention it ONCE regarding the outcome of this game. But I think it's super rich that even freaking Bob Kraft has to bring up the score in that game when asked about it. I thought he was smarter than that.

 

[FrostyMouse]

I don't see how any post I've made where I wasn't joking around was bitter. Not really sure what there could be to be disrespectful about when we won, so I don't get your point. You were handed that victory by a terrible throw. Yes, you were competitive enough to win either way, but that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

And what's wrong if I don't think he's a Top 5 QB? It's called an opinion. It isn't me being bitter, man So sorry I don't think Brady is the best QB of all time! I'd take Aaron Rodgers, Peyton Manning in his prime, Marino, Montana, Unitas....hell, I might even take Big Ben in his best form. They're just better all-around players IMO. Brady wouldn't have the the awards and accolades if it wasn't for their team and Belichick...hell, he might have never even started a game without him, if you really think about it. Not trying to minimize his accomplishments, because that would be stupid considering I root for someone like Flacco.

And about the deflategate thing - I never acted like I was in the lockeroom, but when reports come out you form your own opinion naturally. The only people who didn't have any doubt at first was you and all of the other NE fans. But given what's gone on in the past with NE...I mean, come on. And the NFL will have the final word on that anyway. Notice I didn't mention it ONCE regarding the outcome of this game. But I think it's super rich that even freaking Bob Kraft has to bring up the score in that game when asked about it. I thought he was smarter than that.

It was a bad playcall for sure, but if you take a look at this useful thread, it's a lot more about the defense, although the throw is also too far ahead of Lockette. http://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/2uitcc/gif_breakdown_malcolm_butlers_final_superbowl/

It's perfectly fine if you don't think Brady's the GOAT (if Brady was 6-0 in SBs, there would be people who would say that Montana was still better), because everyone's entitled to their opinion. It did seem rather odd that you wouldn't put Brady in your top five, though. You are minimizing the relevance of his accomplishments, though. Montana won in an era of no salary caps, but that's irrelevant, right? It just seemed rich of you to immediately come out and act like winning four SBs wasn't really relevant, which is where I had the problem.

I suppose, but you, and most non-NE fans, assumed that the Patriots were instantly guilty because of Spygate (even though the truth about Spygate is way overblown). Well, if it were a close game, I think that NE fans would've been more suspicious at the beginning. The fact is that the report came from Kravitz, the mouthpiece of Jim Irsay, an owner whose team we've had a rather acrimonious relationship with, which instantly made it more suspect than if it had come from Schefter, Ed Werder, or one of those types. At one point, it looked like we were actually guilty midway through the process and I even posted here about it.

I know, you might have had reasonable cause to doubt the veracity of the Patriots' story. I think that Kraft threw it in because there were a lot of media people who said that the Pats should be banned from the SB or have massive suspensions handed down without any actual proof.

I know, but didn't you still say something along the lines of "cheating is cheating?"

The latest story, at least as of yesterday before the SB, was that the only suspect ball was the one that was picked off, which the Colts could've ostensibly tampered with to create this story. I don't want to cast aspersions on another organization, but considering that the report came from Irsay's mouthpiece immediately after the Colts were destroyed makes you wonder. At one point, there was even a report that the Patriots might've been using slightly deflated balls once before, or at least an unnamed source "tipped off" the NFL that it might be happening, which is why the NFL checked the balls to start with. We never heard anything more about that, so who knows.

 

[xi0]

No, I didn't say they were automatically guilty. I said that it wasn't shocking to me given their history. Any convo we had about the actual act was under the assumption that they did it, which there was only evidence for, no definitive proof.

I never minimized 4 Super Bowls. But Bart Starr won 7 championships and you never see his name in the Top 5 of all time either. Different era when you could win in different ways. And I meant taking them at their best. I never said Brady wasn't a Top 5 QB right now.

 

[FrostyMouse]

No, I didn't say they were automatically guilty. I said that it wasn't shocking to me given their history. Any convo we had about the actual act was under the assumption that they did it, which there was only evidence for, no definitive proof.

I never minimized 4 Super Bowls. But Bart Starr won 7 championships and you never see his name in the Top 5 of all time either. Different era when you could win in different ways. And I meant taking them at their best. I never said Brady wasn't a Top 5 QB right now.

Implication, though.

Bart Starr did play in a very different era, it's true. I'd have to sit down and think about it for a while, but Starr's probably 6th or 7th on my list.

I wouldn't imagine that you would ever say that Brady was not a top 5 QB of the QBs currently playing. You simply said that you valued players who played in the past, a QB who had one good post season (Rodgers), and a QB who has a history of playing poorly at the biggest moments (Peyton), over Brady. You even said that you would've taken prime Big Ben, who was never great (unless you're talking about the level that Big Ben played at for two games this season, and that would be stretching it), although he was certainly quality, over prime Brady.

 

[xi0]

Listen, the Steeler's are my bitter rivals, but there's no universe in which I'd say Big Ben was never great. That's just silly.

 

[FrostyMouse]

Listen, the Steeler's are my bitter rivals, but there's no universe in which I'd say Big Ben was never great. That's just silly.

Actually, you said that you'd rather see the Steelers win than the Patriots, so, in that sense, while the Steelers might be your bitterest rivals, we're your most hated rivals.

Big Ben isn't a top five QB of all time, however. Numbers aren't everything, and I know that the Steelers are often a run first offense backed up a stout defense (which supported Big Ben when he won), and now he's actually throwing more that his defense isn't present as much. This season was the first season that number-wise, he's ever been elite. You dismissed Brady's great seasons and talk about one season of Big Ben and rate that over Brady's entire career? Okay...

http://www.nfl.com/player/benroethlisberger/2506109/profile

 

[Jammin]

I recuse myself from this conversation, on the grounds that I'm a massive homer.

Your are wrong on the reason that Roethelsburger put up the numbers he did though Frosty. That's because Todd Haley's offensive scheme is just vastly better than the one Bruce Arians used to run for us. There is a reason he was on his fourth string QB. The same reason he lost his job in Pittsburgh. His offense is designed to get big plays at the cost of getting the QB's killed. This is like the first year he's was healthy almost all year. It was amazing.

---------- Post added at 10:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 PM ----------

I just realized I forgot John Elway and I'd definitely put him over Brady.

So I guess that means I'd put Brady at #6 all time in front of Steve Young. I'd also put him in front of Rodgers. While I think Rodgers is the better player right now. It's going to take a few years at this level before I'd put him over Brady as an all time great.

 

[FrostyMouse]

/shakes head at both of you

 

[M3J]

Compelling retort there, frosty one.

Anyway, I hope the Giants play better next season. Our time to win it all is now!

 

[FrostyMouse]

Compelling retort there, frosty one.

Anyway, I hope the Giants play better next season. Our time to win it all is now!

Really, and Gary saying "Big Ben is better than Brady" was compelling in the first place?

 

[xi0]

Big Ben isn't a top five QB of all time, however. Numbers aren't everything, and I know that the Steelers are often a run first offense backed up a stout defense (which supported Big Ben when he won), and now he's actually throwing more that his defense isn't present as much. This season was the first season that number-wise, he's ever been elite. You dismissed Brady's great seasons and talk about one season of Big Ben and rate that over Brady's entire career? Okay...

http://www.nfl.com/player/benroethlisberger/2506109/profile

I don't think I really made a list like that. Big Ben wouldn't be a top 5 all-time QB no, but his play overall might be more impressive to me. He brings more to an offense than Brady does.

 

[FrostyMouse]

I don't think I really made a list like that. Big Ben wouldn't be a top 5 all-time QB no, but his play overall might be more impressive to me. He brings more to an offense than Brady does.

Don't backtrack now. You already said Big Ben was better than Brady. If you're going to make statements like that, own them, and then provide concrete statements about what you mean. Don't just say, "he brings more to an offense." When you say that, what do you mean?

 

[xi0]

Don't backtrack now. You already said Big Ben was better than Brady. If you're going to make statements like that, own them, and then provide concrete statements about what you mean. Don't just say, "he brings more to an offense." When you say that, what do you mean?

No, I said I might take him over Brady. He's more of a complete football player than Brady's ever been. Now, you don't have to be 6'6" and built like a TE to win, but you can do more things. Brady has benefited from having a stellar coaching staff and players surrounding him. Pats consistently have one of the best offensive line units in the league.

I'm not ranking their accomplishments, I'm saying if I was building a franchise I would take those players over Brady.

 

[FrostyMouse]

No, I said I might take him over Brady. He's more of a complete football player than Brady's ever been. Now, you don't have to be 6'6" and built like a TE to win, but you can do more things. Brady has benefited from having a stellar coaching staff and players surrounding him. Pats consistently have one of the best offensive line units in the league.

I'm not ranking their accomplishments, I'm saying if I was building a franchise I would take those players over Brady.

So, you're blaming Brady for playing for a good organization? Almost every "great" QB has had a good organization around then.

That's not a GOAT list, though. That's a "who might I take for one game" list. Brady's also a far more reliable passer than Big Ben, but you don't want to talk about that. In terms of GOAT lists, except for Dan Marino (who gets a pass, although not as much from me as from others), accomplishments count.

Rivers is a good/quality QB, for example, but he's never had any ultimate success, so that does count against him (I wasn't saying that Rivers is on a GOAT list or anything. He might be the 50th best QB to ever play or something, who knows). Eli's far higher on the list than he otherwise would be because he won those two SBs. If not for those two wins, Eli would probably be a footnote as Peyton's brother. Accomplishments count.

This isn't soccer, where you get a trophy at the end of the season, for having the best record.