Discussion NNT versus thread

[Ger]

AM Mel after Escanor's fight (the one that is above 142.000) is Mel in his prime, so yeah he wins in my opinion. The Mel that fought Escanor should lose as you said.

Meliodas who bypassed DKs magic after fighting escanor stomps the masters themselves.

 

[titantron91]

8th gate might guy vs meliodas full power who wins
I'll go with might guy

Me too. Byebye 7 hearts!

 

[Ger]

So before i reiterate my arguments again, heres the idea of this, if Merlin DID say that WHY did Cusack shitted himself that escanor was fighting ON?? even regardless of merlins statement it does not fit the expression and statements from characters that they were shock about his power. Yet when this happened zeldris made a comparison between chapter 246 meliodas vs The One and he SIMPLY implicate that escanor defeating meliodas was just meliodas own habit of toying around. That's a hypothetical battle if chapter 246 meliodas were to fight escanor in the one mode hence he made that comparison. So this does not just make iffy statements about Merlin but it makes several contradictions about the statement itself.

 

[Demonspeed]

Pompadour King vs. Zeldris

Who wins?

Before I would have said Zeldris for sure but with the recent reveals I think King wins because I believe he is at the level of the masters.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 23, 2018, Original Post Date: Nov 23, 2018 ---

So before i reiterate my arguments again, heres the idea of this, if Merlin DID say that WHY did Cusack shitted himself that escanor was fighting ON?? even regardless of merlins statement it does not fit the expression and statements from characters that they were shock about his power. Yet when this happened zeldris made a comparison between chapter 246 meliodas vs The One and he SIMPLY implicate that escanor defeating meliodas was just meliodas own habit of toying around. That's a hypothetical battle if chapter 246 meliodas were to fight escanor in the one mode hence he made that comparison. So this does not just make iffy statements about Merlin but it makes several contradictions about the statement itself.

Cusack was surprised by Escanor's power against Zeldris and I am pretty sure that The One Escanor is stronger than Cusack and Chandler.

Zeldris's opinion isn't very important when feats don't support it. Zeldris said he would beat Escanor in the same chapter. What happened? He lost.

So, until proof of the contrary, Cusack and Chandler> AM Mel with Full Counter> Zeldris. With his original magic he should stronger.

 

[Arjuna]

Yeah I agree too,

Cussack and Chandler are stronger than AM Meliodas without his Original Magic.

 

[OtakuFreak]

Before I would have said Zeldris for sure but with the recent reveals I think King wins because I believe he is at the level of the masters.

How does King win when Zeldris has magic immunity?

King wouldn't be able to overcome ON anyway I believe..

 

[Demonspeed]

How does King win when Zeldris has magic immunity?

King wouldn't be able to overcome ON anyway I believe..

King has more power. ON is strong but not really versatile. Before people thought the masters couldn't deal with it either and they have been revealed stronger. King would need to find an opening to defeat him. And some of King's techniques can't be absorbed by Zeldris like Guardian or Increase.

My reasoning is simple. If as I think King is at Cusack and Chandler level, then he will definitely find a way to win. ON is strong but it has its limits.

 

[OtakuFreak]

King has more power. ON is strong but not really versatile. Before people thought the masters couldn't deal with it either and they have been revealed stronger. King would need to find an opening to defeat him. And some of King's techniques can't be absorbed by Zeldris like Guardian or Increase.

My reasoning is simple. If as I think King is at Cusack and Chandler level, then he will definitely find a way to win. ON is strong but it has its limits.

Zeldris was able to repel an attack from "The One" and even Ludoshel or the masters seemed heavily affected by ON.

I don't see how he wins but if he can, It's not easy.

 

[Ger]

Zeldris's opinion isn't very important when feats don't support it. Zeldris said he would beat Escanor in the same chapter. What happened? He lost.

you mean this panel?? nothing really suggests of zeldris having the cockiness to have his own victory guaranteed as he never implied that "You can't beat me like that".

he was merely mocking how escanor threw away his weapon when it didn't work when he swung it. The best example of that is, since zeldris is a swordsman type of individual he views "throwing your weapon away= begging for your life" which samurai's back then does see someone throwing away their weapon.

nothing suggests he had the confidence nor implication that he would beat him.
Since you wanna go by feats has the masters shown any feats to back merlin's statement? no. The fact that you implied that zeldris own opinion doesn't support the feats then might just as well call the masters not as strong as meliodas based on feats, so until they get feats that is superior to meliodas both of them have nothing on him. So far one of the best feats in NNT is bypassing DKs magic which no1 has done so far aside from meliodas.
so since you wanna with that argument and contradictions then masters are in no position of feats that they would be stronger than meliodas.

Cusack was surprised by Escanor's power against Zeldris and I am pretty sure that The One Escanor is stronger than Cusack and Chandler.

merely a theory if you're appealing to merlin's statement them being the strongest BUT yet meliodas is equal to mael if we go by statements alone. Also the prisoner sky manga is vague due to the timing of the fight, mael's physical figure doesn't change even when his grace is at its activation which the sun is at its rising pin point.
So time will tell what time mael fought meliodas in that special chapter, so for all we know Mael does not get muscular at his peak and just get's stronger without the grace affecting his body unlike escanor.

So, until proof of the contrary, Cusack and Chandler> AM Mel with Full Counter> Zeldris. With his original magic he should stronger.

the proof itself lies within the comparison of zeldris and masters being in shock. So that argument is moot since the feats is ALSO one of the proofs that meliodas is stronger due to the fact after awakening he has shown one of the best feats in NNT.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 24, 2018, Original Post Date: Nov 24, 2018 ---

Zeldris own feats>>>King's

Having clash struggle with escanor using "Holy sword" is a feat that King HAS not shown.

as for PL it's unknown so since mael is above 200k and that can mean from 200,001 to 299,999 and people likes the idea that "mael is 200k+ in PL so he should beat zeldris"

 

[Demonspeed]

you mean this panel?? nothing really suggests of zeldris having the cockiness to have his own victory guaranteed as he never implied that "You can't beat me like that".

he was merely mocking how escanor threw away his weapon when it didn't work when he swung it. The best example of that is, since zeldris is a swordsman type of individual he views "throwing your weapon away= begging for your life" which samurai's back then does see someone throwing away their weapon.

nothing suggests he had the confidence nor implication that he would beat him.

You don't need to be cocky to think you will win and you can't seriously tell me that Zeldris was fighting without believing in his victory, that's ridiculous. Zeldris also said he was going to avenge Estarossa

Since you wanna go by feats has the masters shown any feats to back merlin's statement? no. The fact that you implied that zeldris own opinion doesn't support the feats then might just as well call the masters not as strong as meliodas based on feats, so until they get feats that is superior to meliodas both of them have nothing on him. So far one of the best feats in NNT is bypassing DKs magic which no1 has done so far aside from meliodas.

The masters have PLs quite a bit higher than the highest PL of Meliodas we have seen so far. The feat you are talking about is Meliodas using his original magic. We have never, ever seen AM Meliodas using this. I said that I believe Meliodas is stronger using his real magic. So, considering everything we know so far, nothing puts the AM Meliodas that we have seen above Cusack and Chandler.

so since you wanna with that argument and contradictions then masters are in no position of feats that they would be stronger than meliodas.

In the image you posted Zeldris is saying that he isn't intending to beg for his life. Which speaks about his confidence.

merely a theory if you're appealing to merlin's statement them being the strongest BUT yet meliodas is equal to mael if we go by statements alone. Also the prisoner sky manga is vague due to the timing of the fight, mael's physical figure doesn't change even when his grace is at its activation which the sun is at its rising pin point.
So time will tell what time mael fought meliodas in that special chapter, so for all we know Mael does not get muscular at his peak and just get's stronger without the grace affecting his body unlike escanor.

Escanor and Mael are not Demons, so they were not included in Merlin's statement. Meliodas and Mael weren't "equals", they were both considered as the main powerhouses and aces of their clans. Knowing how Sun works, it's clear they can't really be equal. We don't know the hour when Mael and Mel were fighting and I don't think his appearance changes anyway, but there is nothing said about the time at all.

the proof itself lies within the comparison of zeldris and masters being in shock. So that argument is moot since the feats is ALSO one of the proofs that meliodas is stronger due to the fact after awakening he has shown one of the best feats in NNT.

Again, being shocked to see someone who is not a Demon doing well against one of the strongest Demons doesn't contradict anything. Especially since Escanor is from the weakest race.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 24, 2018, Original Post Date: Nov 24, 2018 ---

Zeldris was able to repel an attack from "The One" and even Ludoshel or the masters seemed heavily affected by ON.

I don't see how he wins but if he can, It's not easy.

They were affected but we know that Cusack and Chandler are stronger than him, so in the end, Cusack or Chandler would defeat Zeldris in a one on one. If Ludociel was in his real body, I believe he would win as well.

 

[Shadowlord123]

The Masters are above Zeldris in PL. We already knew that at the moment that Chandler stated that the stronger the demon, the stronger the bending of the seal is and the more time you need to break free. However, even if the Masters have a higher PL, there's nothing that tells me that their physical attacks could bypass ON or that their magical attacks could bypass the DK's magic. Both of them needed to be stuck into a wall during ON, meaning that the ability can definitely suck them. When Escanor walked through ON and only got a few scratches after the first attack, Cusack was sweating because he thought that something like that was impossible. So yeah, unless you think that the masters are around The One's level (which clearly they aren't) they can't bypass ON and thus beat Zeldris. Cusack and Chandler have a higher PL than Zeldris but that doesn't mean that they would be able to beat him in a fight, since ON and The Ruler are overpowered abilities that give Zeldris the chances of battling or even defeating someone with a higher PL than him.

Also, I would like to ask something: would Ludo in his original body be above the Masters?

 

[Ger]

You don't need to be cocky to think you will win and you can't seriously tell me that Zeldris was fighting without believing in his victory, that's ridiculous. Zeldris also said he was going to avenge Estarossa

Yeah because that whole estarossa revenge was never stated in chapter 285 or 286??
So not only zeldris never stated that he would defeat escanor but the fact that he even implied who it is he will go all out to fight them clearly does not suggests anything that zeldris was cocky or even believing in the past 6 chapters that he would defeat escanor.

The masters have PLs quite a bit higher than the highest PL of Meliodas we have seen so far. The feat you are talking about is Meliodas using his original magic. We have never, ever seen AM Meliodas using this. I said that I believe Meliodas is stronger using his real magic. So, considering everything we know so far, nothing puts the AM Meliodas that we have seen above Cusack and Chandler.

Since you made the positive claim that meliodas used his OG magic why don't you prove that he used his magic? there's a clear cut differences between negative claim and positive claim, so let me define that for you.

Positive and negative. A major division of truth claims is that between positive and negative truth claims. Positive truth claims proclaim the existence of an object or entity. Negative truth claims, which are the opposite of truth claims, proclaim the non-existence of an object or entity.

So if you think he used OG magic why don't you show me a hint of that in the fight that they had or even prior to that. If you can't then you're making a non claimable argument to say that it's his magic that affected it when you have no proof of that. But if you're gonna tell me that i have to prove whether meliodas didn't use his magic, that's a negative claim there's non existent proof that he didn't use it. So my stance has more valuable than your positive claim, if it's never shown to have a hint of doing so then it's null to argue that he used it. If he did used it he would've destroyed zeldris own body right there in that fight.

so until you prove your claim about meliodas using his magic, all of that feat MATTERS to the scaling that NO1 has ever done except the gods.

also as for "we have never seen meliodas used this in his AM", meliodas literally used darkness from his AM cloak to bypass DKs magic. So idk where you're getting that idea that we never seen him do that in his AM. So it's really a moot point to expose that headcanon.

so if you're gonna go with statements zeldris own statement still matters until the prove that he made about meliodas gets contradicted.

In the image you posted Zeldris is saying that he isn't intending to beg for his life. Which speaks about his confidence.

Confidence=/= believing he could defeat escanor
Theres a cut differences between overconfident and confident.

So the fact that i made an example how or why he views throwing down an individual's weapon is literally the thing about samurais in middle ages. He literally said to escanor "it seems you won't do that" so nothing suggest either that he was being confident he could defeat him. Confidence on fighting escanor is clearly different than having a confidence on taking him down which he never implied in chapter 289.

Escanor and Mael are not Demons, so they were not included in Merlin's statement. Meliodas and Mael weren't "equals", they were both considered as the main powerhouses and aces of their clans. Knowing how Sun works, it's clear they can't really be equal. We don't know the hour when Mael and Mel were fighting and I don't think his appearance changes anyway, but there is nothing said about the time at all.

All right why did gowther state they were equals?? so are you gonna back track and say "ItS The SuN" so your opinion is moot and you need to debunk why gowther stated mael is equal to meliodas. Until then al of that waste of sentence does not address the whole point.

Yeah nothing said about the time but the fact that time will tell whether he was at his peak or not clearly cuts that but that's irrelevant. The gowther statement still stands that he was equal to meliodas.

Again, being shocked to see someone who is not a Demon doing well against one of the strongest Demons doesn't contradict anything. Especially since Escanor is from the weakest race.

that's up for interpretation of your headcanon. The fact cusack suggests chandler to use his true night by saying
"you know what that means" clearly suggests they were shock, surprised the amount of magic power he has. So clearly nothing of your headcanon supports that.

They were affected but we know that Cusack and Chandler are stronger than him, so in the end, Cusack or Chandler would defeat Zeldris in a one on one. If Ludociel was in his real body, I believe he would win as well.

As for ludo that's headcanon until proven cuz thus far ludo is getting beaten by zeldris prior to his 2nd form with ease.



So this whole argument of yours DOES not address my whole stance of my own argument, until the claim that u made about meliodas using his OG power against meliodas even though he literally used the cloak of darkness that he has when going assault mode to pin him down.

When meliodas USED his OG magic he didn't use any darkness at all, so all of this is positive claim that needs to proven until then all of your arguments are moot that includes the zeldris line.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 24, 2018, Original Post Date: Nov 24, 2018 ---

Also, I would like to ask something: would Ludo in his original body be above the Masters?

through headcanon

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 24, 2018 ---

Edit: The feat that i was talking about was when meliodas bypassed zeldris own borrowed magic from DK. So dont get it confused when meliodas truly used his magic.

 

[kaiiruuu]

Pompadour King vs. Zeldris

Who wins?

King mid-diff

 

[OtakuFreak]

Original Gowther vs Zeldris

 

[sobreno]

Original Gowther vs Zeldris

Going with Zeldoris since magic doesn't work on him.

So unless he attack him by surprise like Mael with that 8 gates like Invasion.
He isn't winning against Zeldoris with God magic ability.

 

[Ger]

Going with Zeldoris since magic doesn't work on him.

So unless he attack him by surprise like Mael with that 8 gates like Invasion.
He isn't winning against Zeldoris with God magic ability.

gowther needed his life force to make everyone believe mael was a demon. so gowther gets obliterated by zeldris especially if he uses ON, gowther is not known for 1v1 showing when doll gowther couldn't fight diane 1v1 physical strength wise.

 

[OtakuFreak]

Going with Zeldoris since magic doesn't work on him.

Invasion works different though, it affects the spirit stat and is a special exception.

Gowther manipulating the Gods memory makes me believe Zeldris isn't immune, since he's lending the same power from his father than was bypassed.

 

[sobreno]

Invasion works different though, it affects the spirit stat and is a special exception.

Gowther manipulating the Gods memory makes me believe Zeldris isn't immune, since he's lending the same power from his father than was bypassed.

Invasion is still a magic power that work on your spirit, it will still be cancelled by God.

Yes, but he need a forbidden self killing technique on his Invasion in order to do that feat.
His Regular Invasion isn't obviously not even close to that kind of feat, and he need to still land it on a target by surprise.

Good luck on a fight against Zeldoris lol.
There is a reason why he avoided wasting his magic on him.

 

[Ger]

Gowther manipulating the Gods memory makes me believe Zeldris isn't immune, since he's lending the same power from his father than was bypassed.

it took his life by using that so..... gowther is not that desperate

 

[OtakuFreak]

There is a reason why he avoided wasting his magic on him.

All he said was that taking Zeldris on in battle would require a large source of his magic power.

Gowther's feats and how Invasion works itself is still a threat against Zeldris.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 25, 2018, Original Post Date: Nov 25, 2018 ---

it took his life by using that so..... gowther is not that desperate

So hypothetically, Gowther in a death battle against Zeldris would technically win.

Just use a forbidden spell and make Zeldris kill himself out of memory manipulation.

ez win