On Break One Piece Chapter 1193 Discussion

[The Trinity]

Not sure if my point got through but I don't think zoro has noticed he used it at all. I think it's more likely we get something like "Huh, so this is cladding. Surprisingly easy to use considering it's the first time ever. I must be a genius." while us readers facepalm at him using it since he fought kaido.

Whether Zoro knows he's using haki or not isn't the point. Whether the AUDIENCE knows that he does or doesn't know he's been using haki is beside the point. The FACT that Zoro knows, since the Kaido arc, that his body can now give him the power he needs to wield and deal effective blows is the point. Us facepalming Zoro's glibness to CoC is on purpose and reinforces Zoro's character as a passive but effective right-hand man. How is that not obvious?

His AWARENESS, and therefore his follow-through with that awareness, is what matters. At the end of the day, he has to beat the bad guy. He is shaping and molding that power since the Kaido arc made those demands on his haki. It seems to me that a lot of us are focused on whether his understanding of haki (the word and lore of it in One Piece) validates his use of it, which is ass backwards. I don't care if he called his power doodoo-shit-fire. That doodoo-shit-fire can now be coated. And stating he hasn't noticed it because he doesn't call it by its name is wild. I assure you, Sommers knows what it is, and whether or not Zoro knows it by name isn't gonna stop Sommers from being cut down by it. Lay this dogmatic nonsense to rest already. Zoro has been aware of this power and that's that. Be it CoC or whatever the hell he wants to recognize it as.

 

[kkck]

Whether Zoro knows he's using haki or not isn't the point. Whether the AUDIENCE knows that he does or doesn't know he's been using haki is beside the point. The FACT that Zoro knows, since the Kaido arc, that his body can now give him the power he needs to wield and deal effective blows is the point. Us facepalming Zoro's glibness to CoC is on purpose and reinforces Zoro's character as a passive but effective right-hand man. How is that not obvious?

His AWARENESS, and therefore his follow-through with that awareness, is what matters. At the end of the day, he has to beat the bad guy. He is shaping and molding that power since the Kaido arc made those demands on his haki. It seems to me that a lot of us are focused on whether his understanding of haki (the word and lore of it in One Piece) validates his use of it, which is ass backwards. I don't care if he called his power doodoo-shit-fire. That doodoo-shit-fire can now be coated. And stating he hasn't noticed it because he doesn't call it by its name is wild. I assure you, Sommers knows what it is, and whether or not Zoro knows it by name isn't gonna stop Sommers from being cut down by it. Lay this dogmatic nonsense to rest already. Zoro has been aware of this power and that's that. Be it CoC or whatever the hell he wants to recognize it as.

I don't know WTF you are talking about but the point I am making in my posts is that zoro literally has zero awareness that he has ever used any amount whatsoever of conqueror haki cladding. As in, he literally has not noticed he has been imbuing his swords with it. Not once. Just as luffy and gaban noticed zoro was emitting conqueror haki while zoro himself was entirely clueless.

I am in no way suggesting the issue here is zoro not calling conqueror haki by name or otherwise confusing it with armor haki or whatever else.

 

[The Trinity]

I don't know WTF you are talking about but the point I am making in my posts is that zoro literally has zero awareness that he has ever used any amount whatsoever of conqueror haki cladding. As in, he literally has not noticed he has been imbuing his swords with it. Not once. Just as luffy and gaban noticed zoro was emitting conqueror haki while zoro himself was entirely clueless.

I am in no way suggesting the issue here is zoro not calling conqueror haki by name or otherwise confusing it with armor haki or whatever else.

"Huh, so this is cladding. Surprisingly easy to use considering it's the first time ever. I must be a genius."

Is this not your quote above? I believe you made a point of saying he doesn't have awareness when HE DOES! My point in saying he may not recognize it as Coc doesn't mean he isn't aware of A POWER THAT IS USEFUL FOR DEFEATING THE ENEMY. Your point is a nonpoint because it makes Zoro's "awareness of Coc" itself a point of contention along what lines I can't, for the life of me, make sense of. Help me understand WHY Zoro not calling his power Coc or recognizing it as Coc means any fucking thing right now? That's where I'm lost

And you and ALL OF US who are facepalming also doesn't make sense. It's ZORO the aloof. It's character development. a NONPOINT in relation to Zoro's ability to use Coc. Hence, the reason I called Zoro's understanding of Coc manipulation doodoo-shit-power. Because his recognition of the power is what matters, not that he doesn't know it's Coc. That's a nonpoint

My whole point about YOUR point is zoro HAS been aware of his power. Regardless of whether or not he recognizes Coc or not. And the summary of "Oh this is a things, I must be a genius" is too ham-fisted to make your point stick, because that's definitely not what happened. Regardless of how others are taking it.

 

[kkck]

"Huh, so this is cladding. Surprisingly easy to use considering it's the first time ever. I must be a genius."

Is this not your quote above? I believe you made a point of saying he doesn't have awareness when HE DOES! My point in saying he may not recognize it as Coc doesn't mean he isn't aware of A POWER THAT IS USEFUL FOR DEFEATING THE ENEMY. Your point is a nonpoint because it makes Zoro's "awareness of Coc" itself a point of contention along what lines I can't, for the life of me, make sense of. Help me understand WHY Zoro not calling his power Coc or recognizing it as Coc means any fucking thing right now? That's where I'm lost

And you and ALL OF US who are facepalming also doesn't make sense. It's ZORO the aloof. It's character development. a NONPOINT in relation to Zoro's ability to use Coc. Hence, the reason I called Zoro's understanding of Coc manipulation doodoo-shit-power. Because his recognition of the power is what matters, not that he doesn't know it's Coc. That's a nonpoint

My whole point about YOUR point is zoro HAS been aware of his power. Regardless of whether or not he recognizes Coc or not. And the summary of "Oh this is a things, I must be a genius" is too ham-fisted to make your point stick, because that's definitely not what happened. Regardless of how others are taking it.

I don't know what you are talking about or what your problem is. I won't reply to your gibberish anymore.

 

[The Trinity]

I don't know what you are talking about or what your problem is. I won't reply to your gibberish anymore.

So now I don't make sense? Nice substantive answer. And yes, Zoro is a genius.

--- Double Post Merged, Friday at 6:47 PM, Original Post Date: Friday at 6:40 PM ---

I thinking the same, he's so clueless that he didn't notice it until someone says: THAT'S ACOC YOU MORON! And then he: That's it? Boring, i can use it since my fight with King.

My response to this is the same to kckk. Being aloof and a moron are pretty different. Hmmm not wielding CoC in the way Luffy and other characters do doesn't make him a moron. If anything, him using CoC when he wants despite not acknowledging it as such is cool guy shit to me.

It's always funny to see what the readers gets irritated over in situations like this. I bet Sommers isn't thinking "this guys is a moron."

--- Double Post Merged, Friday at 6:53 PM ---

My question here is: If Gaban, Ray and other members of Roger pirates have ACoC, why they didn't kill these GK before? They never tried to stab they in the hearth using ACoC? I consider this a very strange coincidence...

And you bring up a good point here. Either Zoro really is a prodigious son of a gun or he just (bad writing?) jumped several levels by simply being aquatinted with Coc. Every shonen I've read has a moment like this where a simple thought process goes beyond critical thinking and points toward the dialectical understanding of a power. That tends to read genius to me in those moments. Especially when you're aloof like Zoro is in these moments

 

[Battle Wolf]

My response to this is the same to kckk. Being aloof and a moron are pretty different. Hmmm not wielding CoC in the way Luffy and other characters do doesn't make him a moron. If anything, him using CoC when he wants despite not acknowledging it as such is cool guy shit to me.

It's always funny to see what the readers gets irritated over in situations like this. I bet Sommers isn't thinking "this guys is a moron."

I didn't call him a moron. I said that people usually treat him like one (especially Sanji). For example, with Enma, he managed to understand the flow of Haki it was using and stopped letting it "suck his Haki" and started letting it "flow into it" instead, which allowed him to unleash more power (which might even be Conqueror's Haki, I'm not entirely sure). So he definitely knows what he's doing, just in his own way.

And you bring up a good point here. Either Zoro really is a prodigious son of a gun or he just (bad writing?) jumped several levels by simply being aquatinted with Coc. Every shonen I've read has a moment like this where a simple thought process goes beyond critical thinking and points toward the dialectical understanding of a power. That tends to read genius to me in those moments. Especially when you're aloof like Zoro is in these moments

Maybe the previous enemies of the GK didn't see the heart, which is why they never came up with that idea... Besides, when you're a pirate, you're usually more focused on running away and surviving than getting into pointless fights.

 

[The Trinity]

I didn't call him a moron. I said that people usually treat him like one (especially Sanji). For example, with Enma, he managed to understand the flow of Haki it was using and stopped letting it "suck his Haki" and started letting it "flow into it" instead, which allowed him to unleash more power (which might even be Conqueror's Haki, I'm not entirely sure). So he definitely knows what he's doing, just in his own way.




Maybe the previous enemies of the GK didn't see the heart, which is why they never came up with that idea... Besides, when you're a pirate, you're usually more focused on running away and surviving than getting into pointless fights.

My reference to calling defending Zoro from the title of moron is coming from some weird side chatter that is making it a point of saying he doesn't know that he's using Coc. Which I don't think means a damn thing and is a nonpoint. The fact that he's manipulating the power that he clearly is aware of is obviously what matters, not that he's not calling it Coc or recognizing it. Anywho.

I definitely think that was his Coc moment when he allowed Enma to truly tap into his power. I like to think that was the demand necessary to wield it. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw more development in what Enma is capable of in the near future.

And my thinking with prior encounters concerning the GK is maybe they didn't get that far? I'm beginning to think Imu hasn't had to make a move like this before.

 

[Battle Wolf]

And my thinking with prior encounters concerning the GK is maybe they didn't get that far? I'm beginning to think Imu hasn't had to make a move like this before.

Me too. This is a unique moment in the entire story where Imu has to descend to the lower world (after Void Century) to resolve something. Until now, the GK have been more than enough, of course, since we don't have Joyboy running around.

 

[chitgoks]

man.. just watched the anime when gaban first sliced sommers. if he threw his body down to the sea after it was cut it would have been the end.

 

[kg21tmac11]

You people are so media illiteracy your not even worth engaging with anymore. Luckily I don't have to deal with you clowns much longer thank fuck.

Dude that was not necessary.

 

[Tonix]

So now I don't make sense?

That seems to imply that you think you were ever making sense, which… doesn’t make sense.

 

[vicefulder]

Dude that was not necessary.

He actually deleted the reply... 34 years old, here since 2010 and still acting like that

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Rayleigh literally had to explain it to him and trained him on it for months. Haki was all Rayleigh trained him on during the timeskip. Zoro presumably spent most of his time with Mihawk focusing on swordsmanship since it took until Wano for Zoro to know what black blades even are

As Mihawk said in Dressrosa flashback, if a blade gets nicked, it's a shame on a Swordsman - Haki is the only way to become the world's strongest Swordsman.

Haki is also a part Swordsmanship just like it is for any form of fighting. You can't be the best or strongest without Haki.
They received similar training - the entire training was for the New World, and that was Haki basics.

Luffy and Zoro went through similar training - only difference is one fights with a Sword and the other fights with a DF.

it took until Wano for Zoro to know what black blades even are

He knew about Black Blades pre-skip.
He just learnt more about Black Blades in Wano - but nonetheless, above shows Mihawk was teaching Zoro Haki - even told him no alcohol until he learnt it.

I’m saying Zoro is a better and faster learner who is also better at figuring stuff out. Depending on how you interpret Zoro learning how to cut steel back in Alabasta, Zoro might have even learned rudimentary Haki before Luffy.

I’m not saying Zoro is stronger or even as close to strong as Luffy, because I’m pretty sure the gap in strength was made clear enough at least a decade ago. The last time Luffy not being definitely stronger was even debatable would have been like Thriller Bark imo.

Zoro didn't learn Haki in Alabasta, what he learned was the breath of all things which isn't Haki. If he did, he'd have been able to cut Enel or sense him. He couldn't do either, so he definitely wasn't a Haki user at that time.

The only thing Luffy learned from anyone in Wano was how to no-contact hit people with Armament Haki - everything else, he literally figured out by himself.

Luffy never got taught about King's Haki coating, he figured it out on his own against Kaido of all people, Zoro needed to be told - means Zoro is slower.

Zoro didn't even know he was leaking King's Haki which again proves.... Luffy's got better awareness and understanding of Haki than Zoro.

Luffy's been figuring out Haki on his own way faster than Zoro:

• Future Sight
• Sensing Emotions
• King's Haki Coating

... all figured out on his own.

Zoro has literally not figured out anything regarding Haki since the time-skip.

If Zoro was faster, he'd literally have figured out King's Haki before Luffy.

 

[The Trinity]

That seems to imply that you think you were ever making sense, which… doesn’t make sense.

Bud, no need to jump in. You're a dollar short and a day late. This ship has sailed. But you can add to the conversation if you think you have something valid. This is a discussion board after all, despite my protestations to the Zoro bashing, which I still think is irrelevant to his capacity to wield Coc as well as he's currently doing.

--- Double Post Merged, Sunday at 2:08 PM, Original Post Date: Sunday at 2:07 PM ---

Me too. This is a unique moment in the entire story where Imu has to descend to the lower world (after Void Century) to resolve something. Until now, the GK have been more than enough, of course, since we don't have Joyboy running around.

Agreed. Hopefully there is a quick flashback from Imu hinting at what exactly he's afraid of concerning Joyboy. The haki flash from the string needs an arc of its own.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Is this not your quote above? I believe you made a point of saying he doesn't have awareness when HE DOES!

He knows what CoC is, he has sensed it before, he knows what it is called - if he knew it had it, he'd call it CoC too.

He and Lucci literally stopped fighting momentarily when they sensed the Gorose's CoC - so it's not that Zoro doesn't know what CoC is or aware of it, he didn't know he had it; Zoro was not aware of it.

My point in saying he may not recognize it as Coc doesn't mean he isn't aware of A POWER THAT IS USEFUL FOR DEFEATING THE ENEMY.

Not a matter of not recognising this power as CoC, he didn't even know he had this power to begin with to even call it something else.
Luffy even had to tell him he had been oozing CoC - and it's not like he was like "oh... so that's what this is". He had no idea he was using it or releasing it.


He used it against Lucci because it's his most powerful Haki, so he would use it regardless of being told it was CoC or not.
Issue is as Gaban said, no awareness means he cannot improve or get as strong as he has the potential to become if he is ignorant of this power.
You generally cannot improve or use something adequately if you don't understand what it is.

 

[The Trinity]

He knows what CoC is, he has sensed it before, he knows what it is called - if he knew it had it, he'd call it CoC too.

He and Lucci literally stopped fighting momentarily when they sensed the Gorose's CoC - so it's not that Zoro doesn't know what CoC is or aware of it, he didn't know he had it; Zoro was not aware of it.



Not a matter of not recognising this power as CoC, he didn't even know he had this power to begin with to even call it something else.
Luffy even had to tell him he had been oozing CoC - and it's not like he was like "oh... so that's what this is". He had no idea he was using it or releasing it.


He used it against Lucci because it's his most powerful Haki, so he would use it regardless of being told it was CoC or not.
Issue is as Gaban said, no awareness means he cannot improve or get as strong as he has the potential to become if he is ignorant of this power.
You generally cannot improve or use something adequately if you don't understand what it is.

The fact that Gaban literally says Zoro's body is growing accustomed to Coc usage is implicit of his growth/improvement DESPITE him being unawares. So, I'm not sure where you were going with that one. Because this isn't even the disagreement, at least for me.

I never denied he knew OF a power he was using. The disagreement seems to be "Zoro is a doofus who is nonchalantly wielding Coc, but doesn't recognize/know it as Coc" WHICH DOESN'T MATTER! My whole disagreement has been based on this (too long/unimportant) point of Zoro NOT being an idiot, due to his being unawares of his power. He knows of the power and it shows him maturing in its usage in the last chapter.

The fact that his power is maturing and "growing accustom" to his body and usage DESPITE his lack knowing of this has been my point. And that shit is genius. Plot armor, maybe?

Now if we're talking about FURTHERING his handle on it, then yes, clearly Gaban is right. But the FACT that Zoro has wielded and improved his usage thus far , regardless of knowing of Coc, is what my point has been about. The non point, for me, has been Zoro's lack of Coc knowledge, but what should be important, are his capacities this far to execute and therefore make use of it during battle. Which he has done especially leading up to Gaban and Luffy letting him know

A more interesting point for me would be is it possible for a character in One Piece to have a Broly like affinity for haki, despite not knowing what Coc is. While, yes, Broly was "tamed" in the later part of DBZ through training, the original Broly was chi personified in its rawest form.

And FURTHER MORE, if what Gaban is says is true about haki and it's "need to be tamed," is Shanks even in this category? He's constantly knocking out his own crew and being told to chill. Gaban explains it like waving a nuke around. Is "tamed " the only translation for that? I'm spitballing here

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

The fact that Gaban literally says Zoro's body is growing accustomed to Coc usage is implicit of his growth/improvement DESPITE him being unawares. So, I'm not sure where you were going with that one. Because this isn't even the disagreement, at least for me.

No one is saying he is not improving, what is being said is he is not aware is all.
The lack of awareness is why Gaban criticised him because if he isn't aware of it, he can't improve or get as strong as he needs to be as the Pirate King's right hand.
Gaban criticised him is the point and Zoro was unaware.
It is like being a doctor who doesn't first try to understand his patient's problem, but proceeds to treat him, it isn't productive.

I never denied he knew OF a power he was using. The disagreement seems to be "Zoro is a doofus who is nonchalantly wielding Coc, but doesn't recognize/know it as Coc" WHICH DOESN'T MATTER! My whole disagreement has been based on this (too long/unimportant) point of Zoro NOT being an idiot, due to his being unawares of his power. He knows of the power and it shows him maturing in its usage in the last chapter.

By no means is he an idiot, he just wasn't aware.

He knows what it is, no one is arguing that.

He didn't know he was using or leaking CoC - so he wouldn't even have been able to recognise it. You can't name something you can't recognise or acknowledge - he didn't recognise CoC or acknowledge it - so he couldn't have even known it as something else because he doesn't know its a power that exists with him
.
As far as Zoro was concerned, he thought he was using Armament Haki.

This is also proven when he fought against King, he didn't know he was using it - this chapter proves Gaban was right, Zoro is ignorant of his ability to use CoC.

This is the 3rd time since Wano that Zoro has not even know he was using CoC.

Now if we're talking about FURTHERING his handle on it, then yes, clearly Gaban is right. But the FACT that Zoro has wielded and improved his usage thus far , regardless of knowing of Coc, is what my point has been about.

He was only able to improve it after he was told about it thanks to Gaban, and that is why he is able to almost kill Sommers.

It's while thinking about what Gaban said that he was able to almost kill Sommers.

He wouldn't have improved without knowing about CoC - that's why the Manga explicitly shows Zoro saying "I can coat myself with Armament Haki easily, but I need to coat myself with CoC" - it means without knowledge, he would never have thought about coating himself with it - he has just been releasing it instead of coating himself with it meaning he was wasting power.

Again, it proves that Zoro's lack of awareness cost him strength and progress. No one is denying he has improve, it's just that he lacked awareness he had it, that's all.

And FURTHER MORE, if what Gaban is says is true about haki and it's "need to be tamed," is Shanks even in this category? He's constantly knocking out his own crew and being told to chill. Gaban explains it like waving a nuke around. Is "tamed " the only translation for that? I'm spitballing here

Shanks is an Emperor, when he's angry, he can let emotions go out of control like anyone.
Even the most controlled person can lose their temper and cause unintended harm, it doesn't mean this person is generally not a controlled person.

Shanks knocking out his own members doesn't mean he can't control it, it just shows 1 instance where he did let it out too much without considering others.
He can control it perfectly. He has definitely got it tamed. There isn't anything that Luffy or Zoro can do that has surpassed Shanks - Shanks is Luffy's goal essentially, so in order for him to reach Shanks, he has to at the very least be at his level. Luffy has yet to surpass Shanks, so Shanks is in the highest of highest of categories.
Dorry and Broggy said Shanks' Haki was almost comparable to Joyboy's which says a lot - can't have that level of strength and power without mastering it.
There are things that one can get away with whilst being ignorant, but to get to the highest of levels, it requires knowledge and understanding.

 

[The Trinity]

No one is saying he is not improving, what is being said is he is not aware is all.
The lack of awareness is why Gaban criticised him because if he isn't aware of it, he can't improve or get as strong as he needs to be as the Pirate King's right hand.
Gaban criticised him is the point and Zoro was unaware.
It is like being a doctor who doesn't first try to understand his patient's problem, but proceeds to treat him, it isn't productive.

By no means is he an idiot, he just wasn't aware.

He knows what it is, no one is arguing that.

He didn't know he was using or leaking CoC - so he wouldn't even have been able to recognise it. You can't name something you can't recognise or acknowledge - he didn't recognise CoC or acknowledge it - so he couldn't have even known it as something else because he doesn't know its a power that exists with him
.
As far as Zoro was concerned, he thought he was using Armament Haki.

This is also proven when he fought against King, he didn't know he was using it - this chapter proves Gaban was right, Zoro is ignorant of his ability to use CoC.

This is the 3rd time since Wano that Zoro has not even know he was using CoC.

He was only able to improve it after he was told about it thanks to Gaban, and that is why he is able to almost kill Sommers.

It's while thinking about what Gaban said that he was able to almost kill Sommers.

He wouldn't have improved without knowing about CoC - that's why the Manga explicitly shows Zoro saying "I can coat myself with Armament Haki easily, but I need to coat myself with CoC" - it means without knowledge, he would never have thought about coating himself with it - he has just been releasing it instead of coating himself with it meaning he was wasting power.

Again, it proves that Zoro's lack of awareness cost him strength and progress. No one is denying he has improve, it's just that he lacked awareness he had it, that's all.



Shanks is an Emperor, when he's angry, he can let emotions go out of control like anyone.
Even the most controlled person can lose their temper and cause unintended harm, it doesn't mean this person is generally not a controlled person.

Shanks knocking out his own members doesn't mean he can't control it, it just shows 1 instance where he did let it out too much without considering others.
He can control it perfectly. He has definitely got it tamed. There isn't anything that Luffy or Zoro can do that has surpassed Shanks - Shanks is Luffy's goal essentially, so in order for him to reach Shanks, he has to at the very least be at his level. Luffy has yet to surpass Shanks, so Shanks is in the highest of highest of categories.
Dorry and Broggy said Shanks' Haki was almost comparable to Joyboy's which says a lot - can't have that level of strength and power without mastering it.
There are things that one can get away with whilst being ignorant, but to get to the highest of levels, it requires knowledge and understanding.

All of this makes zero sense in that none of it is anything I've denied.

1. IM not claiming idiocy. I'm stating he's done noth

No one is saying he is not improving, what is being said is he is not aware is all.
The lack of awareness is why Gaban criticised him because if he isn't aware of it, he can't improve or get as strong as he needs to be as the Pirate King's right hand.
Gaban criticised him is the point and Zoro was unaware.
It is like being a doctor who doesn't first try to understand his patient's problem, but proceeds to treat him, it isn't productive.

By no means is he an idiot, he just wasn't aware.

He knows what it is, no one is arguing that.

He didn't know he was using or leaking CoC - so he wouldn't even have been able to recognise it. You can't name something you can't recognise or acknowledge - he didn't recognise CoC or acknowledge it - so he couldn't have even known it as something else because he doesn't know its a power that exists with him
.
As far as Zoro was concerned, he thought he was using Armament Haki.

This is also proven when he fought against King, he didn't know he was using it - this chapter proves Gaban was right, Zoro is ignorant of his ability to use CoC.

This is the 3rd time since Wano that Zoro has not even know he was using CoC.

He was only able to improve it after he was told about it thanks to Gaban, and that is why he is able to almost kill Sommers.

It's while thinking about what Gaban said that he was able to almost kill Sommers.

He wouldn't have improved without knowing about CoC - that's why the Manga explicitly shows Zoro saying "I can coat myself with Armament Haki easily, but I need to coat myself with CoC" - it means without knowledge, he would never have thought about coating himself with it - he has just been releasing it instead of coating himself with it meaning he was wasting power.

Again, it proves that Zoro's lack of awareness cost him strength and progress. No one is denying he has improve, it's just that he lacked awareness he had it, that's all.



Shanks is an Emperor, when he's angry, he can let emotions go out of control like anyone.
Even the most controlled person can lose their temper and cause unintended harm, it doesn't mean this person is generally not a controlled person.

Shanks knocking out his own members doesn't mean he can't control it, it just shows 1 instance where he did let it out too much without considering others.
He can control it perfectly. He has definitely got it tamed. There isn't anything that Luffy or Zoro can do that has surpassed Shanks - Shanks is Luffy's goal essentially, so in order for him to reach Shanks, he has to at the very least be at his level. Luffy has yet to surpass Shanks, so Shanks is in the highest of highest of categories.
Dorry and Broggy said Shanks' Haki was almost comparable to Joyboy's which says a lot - can't have that level of strength and power without mastering it.
There are things that one can get away with whilst being ignorant, but to get to the highest of levels, it requires knowledge and understanding.

Let's clear this up because, having read your response, I can tell you CLEARLY didn't read the exchange leading up to this. I'll break this down as clearly as I can. So here we go:

1. kkck posted this: " Not sure if my point got through but I don't think zoro has noticed he used it at all. I think it's more likely we get something like "Huh, so this is cladding. Surprisingly easy to use considering it's the first time ever. I must be a genius." while us readers facepalm at him using it since he fought kaido. " My response to this, to summarize, was that Zoro's aloofness to his use of Coc up to this point hasn't slowed him down, because he has a trail of bodies that have tasted his Coc steel. I kept and will continue to refer to this as a nonpoint because it's clearly, at least to me, Oda flexing Zoro's alcohol-drinking, swashbuckling, lax character. It seemed to me his aloofness to Coc was just Zoro's written character and not his capabilities thus far in how he's managed to still get business done. So your point that me saying people are denying this makes no sense. His improvement was a point I brought into the discussion to knock the point of his aloofness and its irrelevance up to Gaban. I don't think anyone in the exchange said he wasn't improving. Nor did I say they were claiming that he wasn't. Not sure where you got that one. My pointing out his improvements despite his knowledge was what I thought was important.

2. My disagreement is furthered because his aloofness UP TO THIS point (barring Gaban's scolding) hasn't stopped the enemy from getting the shaft with some Coc sprinkled in. THIS is my point to say fuck his aloof character; Zoro is making hay with Coc pretty damn well, which should be the focus. I went on through a series of exchanges pointing out that while he consistently failed to recognize he was using the power called COC, he nevertheless has not missed a beat UP TO THIS POINT in wielding it. In my last post before this, I acknowledged that to PERFECT his COC, he'll have to heed Gaban's info (check the last paragraph of my last post).

Lastly, to clear up some things that seem to be getting lost in the sauce of all these posts, especially yours:

1. He knows what it is, no one is arguing that. He didn't know he was using or leaking CoC - so he wouldn't even have been able to recognise it. You can't name something you can't recognise or acknowledge - he didn't recognise CoC or acknowledge it - so he couldn't have even known it as something else because he doesn't know its a power that exists with him

1a. KKck did say, "Zoro doesn't know he's using it at all." So, yes, there are some out there who are denying this. NOT ME

1b. The whole bold print post above you made doesn't make sense. I'm sorry, but it's not what I'm talking about at all. I posted something along the lines in a prior post that if he did recognize the power he's been using since the demands from Enma, I don't care what he called it. I think there's context there; I was taking it to a hypothetical point, which really doesn't matter, because the context in which it was stated is not relevant here. It's just gonna make things more confusing. And you pointing out that Zoro thought it was simple armament haki would further my point that, in that moment, it didn't matter that he didn't know he was using Coc, he still got the job done USING COC. Now, to FURTHER his handling, sure, he needs to listen to Papa Gaban.

2. He wouldn't have improved without knowing about CoC - that's why the Manga explicitly shows Zoro saying "I can coat myself with Armament Haki easily, but I need to coat myself with CoC" - it means without knowledge, he would never have thought about coating himself with it - he has just been releasing it instead of coating himself with it meaning he was wasting power. Again, it proves that Zoro's lack of awareness cost him strength and progress. No one is denying he has improve, it's just that he lacked awareness he had it, that's all

Again, he was improving without knowing about Coc. I NEVER said he wasn't wasting it or wielding it properly. I simply stated he was wielding it and getting the job done UP TO THIS POINT, i.e., before the tongue lashing from Gaban. I can't state that any clearer. Yes, he can get more refined with its use thanks to knowledge from Gaban, but to say his lack of awareness cost him ANYTHING, since he HAS TAKEN CARE OF BUSINESS UP TO THIS POINT, is to be declarative in a fashion with no examples. Zoro, since Enma's demands have taken care of his neck of the woods with every encounter. Could those exchanges post King been better? Sure, but they clearly didn't need to be up to this point. That refinement is happening now, and he's doing it like it's nothing.

And yes, my droning on about his improvement UP TO THIS POINT is stated for good reason. Not because I said ANYONE was denying his improvement. That clearly wasn't the point, as (hopefully?) you can see.

And a better example than the doctor one you gave would be a toddler running, but having no concept of what running is all the while doing it. Toddlers don't possess abstract thought and therefore don't understand the SIGNS FOR WHAT THEY SIGNIFY (read walter benn Michaels). Doctors are actually trained and therefore at least know of what they're doing. Whether or not they go in hamfisted into a patient's room without reading their charts is a whole other ballgame. Because they actually do know what they're doing. Right? A toddler has ZERO concept of what it's doing while a doctor DOES KNOW, but, in your example, chooses not to exercise that knowledge. Zoro didn't possess a concept up to Gaban. Very different, my dude

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

My response to this, to summarize, was that Zoro's aloofness to his use of Coc up to this point hasn't slowed him down, because he has a trail of bodies that have tasted his Coc steel.

It has slowed him down because he is only able to start practicing since Gaban told him about it.
Had Gaban not told him, he wouldn't know what to do right now.
Furthermore, the fact he didn't know he could clad CoC means he took longer to defeat Lucci than he should have otherwise.
It has slowed down his progress.

Since not understanding it at Wano till now, days have passed meaning he has lost progress.

It's better to learn something earlier than not, that's not logic that can be refuted.

And you pointing out that Zoro thought it was simple armament haki would further my point that, in that moment, it didn't matter that he didn't know he was using Coc, he still got the job done USING COC. Now, to FURTHER his handling, sure, he needs to listen to Papa Gaban.

It actually disputes your point.
He was not using CoC, he was leaking it.

Because he wasn't aware it was being leaked, he had no idea he had CoC, thus he also had no idea it could be clad over his weapon - there are multiple points of failure regarding his ignorance here.

Gaban didn't tell him how to handle it, Gaban told him he ought to be aware and understand his powers, and this chapter proves it, he just almost killed Sommers. Zoro has been struggling for his lack of awareness, and therefore, his lack of knowledge.

If Zoro didn't need to know he was using Haki, then Zoro wouldn't need to say "I can clad Armament over my weapons, maybe I should try CoC too"... He'd never have come to that conclusion without being told by Gaban.

 

[The Trinity]

It has slowed him down because he is only able to start practicing since Gaban told him about it.
Had Gaban not told him, he wouldn't know what to do right now.
Furthermore, the fact he didn't know he could clad CoC means he took longer to defeat Lucci than he should have otherwise.
It has slowed down his progress.

Since not understanding it at Wano till now, days have passed meaning he has lost progress.

It's better to learn something earlier than not, that's not logic that can be refuted.



It actually disputes your point.
He was not using CoC, he was leaking it.

Because he wasn't aware it was being leaked, he had no idea he had CoC, thus he also had no idea it could be clad over his weapon - there are multiple points of failure regarding his ignorance here.

Gaban didn't tell him how to handle it, Gaban told him he ought to be aware and understand his powers, and this chapter proves it, he just almost killed Sommers. Zoro has been struggling for his lack of awareness, and therefore, his lack of knowledge.

If Zoro didn't need to know he was using Haki, then Zoro wouldn't need to say "I can clad Armament over my weapons, maybe I should try CoC too"... He'd never have come to that conclusion without being told by Gaban.

Hannibal, I think you're not reading my post clearly. Here's how I know:

1. It has slowed him down because he is only able to start practicing since Gaban told him about it.
I said he hasn't been efficiently wielding the power, but he has gotten the job done. I even said he could've done it better if he'd known how to wield it properly post King (did you seriously omit that?). None of this is in contention with me, nor does it remotely relate to my disagreement with kkck. We're in agreement that he can wield it better. My hurrah for his efforts up to this point isn't a confirmation that he can do it better without proper training.

2. It's better to learn something earlier than not, that's not logic that can be refuted.
Did I state ANYTHING to this effect? Me saying he has been sprinkling coc and using it during King and other fights DOESN'T imply he doesn't need to learn it. How did you read that into this at all?

3. If Zoro didn't need to know he was using Haki
Dude, where in the HELL did you read me stating this? I NEVER said he didn't NEED TO KNOW. My saying he didn't know but got the job done up to this point SHOULD NOT READ TO YOU: " The Trinity believes Zoro doesn't need to know about CoC haki and its advantages!"

4. Furthermore, the fact he didn't know he could clad CoC means he took longer to defeat Lucci than he should have otherwise.
It has slowed down his progress.
Hannibal, you know Zoro was having fun with Lucci until Sanji called him out for stalling, right? Point 4 above is a wild way to understand that fight. That whole fight was a skills-check power-reveal fight. That's why Zoro took care of work after Sanji told him to stop playing with his food, so readers understood the current pecking order. Now I'm questioning how you're reading these fights altogether.

Hannibal, you didn't read the post clearly, because you omitted WAY too many things we DON'T disagree on. I'm gonna just hang this up on being lost in translation, because the implications here are so wild I can't even.