Re: One Piece Mega Convo (Spoilers!)
Actually we saw Kizaru get shot at and cut in half and he didn't even really know what was going on, yet he was fine. And saying that Logia's have to be ready to "reform" is like saying that Luffy has to be ready in order for his rubber to work.
I think you guys are agree about at least some things.
Razh, when you are saying that if Ki Zaru got really injured, he cannot reset the damages : if we see Ki Zaru with blood, he is injured and cannot heal ; that is something that we already saw with Eneru and Crocodile. If they could heal after being really injured, they could not have been beaten and Luffy would have not won those fights. That is not the case. If logias are hurt, they are hurt : that is right.
But what have said zerocooldx works too. Kizaru has been cut in half and he lost his arm : but that does not mean for a logia that he would be really injured. So, what you have both said here is right.
If you can show me the panel in which Kizaru was bleeding when he was hit by Apoo, than I'll acknowledge that you're right.
As I said, if he had shown you that kind of panel, it would have made no sense because we all know that logia users really injured (that means with blood if you want) cannot recover ...
But that does not mean that your postulate, which is that if a logia suffers an attack by surprised, he is really injured, is true.
From what I have seen, that is not a rule among the logias.
You can show the example of Alabasta with Smoker, Ace and Luffy but this is not a viable one for me because of the kairouseki sword. The kairouseki sword prevent the probability of that example from being 100 % sure : that is an undeniable thing. Moreover, we do not see after if they had real damages/injures from that (see the Kizaru/Apoo case at the end of this post that could also considers this event).
Personally, I think he is totally unvalid because of that and that does not make an example. Anyway, even if that example would work, zerocooldx has shown you a 100 % valid counter-example : a logia attacked by surprised (here Ki Zaru) has not been really injured : that definitely means your postulate is not an undeniable truth.
Before reacting by quoting and saying you do not agree that this is a viable counter-example (because I suppose you will stand your ground), just read the following explanation because I will explain why this is a viable proof that makes your postulate be not valid.
So, if you want to show me I am wrong when I am saying that your postulate is not valid, show me that my explanation of that proof is wrong ; otherwise, you would have proven nothing.
I said that because I have already seen people quoting some part of a post to destroy his ideas whereas they do not pay attention (often because it bothers them) to the explanations of the ideas.
Kizaru may have been surprised, but he was already in his light mode. That's why, no blood. Same as Ace on Banaro, when Auge shot him. Ace was ready for an a surprise attack. He would be a fool if he came to fight 5 men unprepared.
First of all, why do you use " may have been " as if you were doing a concession to zerocooldx. This is not " may have been " but " have been " : Ki Zaru said himself he has been felled because he was surprised.
Ki Zaru was not in his light mode : that is false.
Let's begin by explaning what can be the different states of a classical logia (that have the intangibility) to make sure we are talking about the same thing :
- there is the logia mode. This is when the logia user is turned into his element : that is the name I give to this state.
nota bene : * the logia can decide to turn only a part of his body in this state and let the rest is normal mode
* with Eneru, we have seen this state at his maximum, when a logia is totally AND constantly turned into his logia mode :
here and
here.
- there is then the normal mode : the logia is in his normal appearance.
These are the two possible states of a logia : either he is in a logia state, either he is not.
Now, that I have defined the two states, I can continue.
Normally, a logia is always in his normal mode (we have never seen a logia that is constantly during his all-day-life in a logia state).
When a logia is fighting, he is often already in his normal mode and he can suffer an attack from the ennemy.
There is two possibilites for a logia when he suffers an attack in normal mode :
- either he sees the attack coming and turned into the logia state when he is hit : what can be assimilated to a reflex in some situations.
- either he is surprised and suffers the attack.
Now, can we see the consequence of the two possibilities ?
In the first case, the logia do not have problems, he turns into his logia state just before the attack and suffers it : then of course, it spreads his matter a little around him as he has turned into the logia mode for the clash. That is what happened when Auge shot Ace in Barano Island as you said, Razh.
In the second case, the body of the logia suffers the movement of the attack normally. That is what happened with Ki Zaru when he was surprised by Apoo's attack. He said himself he did not see the attack coming, so, he could not have turned into the logia mode when he was hit. If you do not believe that, you can see the difference between the Kizaru-Apoo case and the others.
That second case does not mean the logia user is really injured because his logia power still protects him : that is what make your postulate be false. That is what happened with Ki Zaru : his normal arm and his normal body were cut but there was no blood because his logia DF automatically activated the intangibility after the body " took the attack ". The body is cut but automatically becomes protected by the intangibility power. So, his logia by himself had prevented the real body from real damages. That is why Ki Zaru is not injured and his logia " rebuild " them : you saw with your own eyes how the light recreated Ki Zaru's body at a different place.
That notice that in the second state the logia df still protects the logia user works because the logia user suffers a normal attack. His DF activated by himself to do his job (protect him), and not by Ki Zaru's own decision. That means the logia user was not really injured and the logia did not regenerate real damages to the real body.
If this had been a special attack (with the weakness of the DF for example), in the two cases (automatically or decided), the DF could not have done his job and could not have protected the DF user : he would have really been injured.
That is how I explain the main differences with logia users in normal state that suffer an attack with their matter spreading and Ki Zaru in normal state that had been felled by Apoo but nevertheless was not injured. Anyway, even if my interpretation is not totally clear, I think it shows that a logia attacked by surprised is not for sure injured : it depends on the attack : if it is a normal or a special one that prevent the DF user from his powers.
Moreover, your postulate means that if a logia is turned into his logia mode and stayed in his logia mode, he cannot be injured. BUT that is not always true. That works with the kairouseki because the kairouseki take out the power of the DF and the DF user does not stay in his logia mode and so, is injured. BUT That does not always work with natural weakness : the natural weakness does not always take the power of intangibility of the DF user : it just directly injures them. When Eneru was in full in logia mode, that idea do not work : indeed, see that
image : Eneru is still in logia mode, does not become again a normal body, when he is injured by Luffy's punch.
But it
is what Oda showed us. That's what Razh is trying to say.
Just like he and goldb say: Logia DF users aren't in their "
logia forms" all the time, they have to "turn it on"; that's what Razh means by "
mode", he means the "time when a logia user is in his respective logia form".
It isn't just logic, it is what Oda himself has shown us, just like goldb said, in the case of Crocodile: he has trained himself so much that he switches into "logia mode" by reflex. And the same can definitely be said for Kizaru. Just like Razh points out in his previous post...
So the difference between logia and paramecia is that the logia user, still has to "turn his ability on", consiously or reflexively either way he still needs to turn it on. Whereas paramecia fruit users, like Luffy for example, don't have to turn their power on. They are always in that form. Luffy can't choose to "turn his power off".
That's what they're trying to say, and it does sound logical to me. Hope you can see what I'm trying to say...
Your post is totally right : Kizaru, Crocodile have normally reflex to turn suddenly in the logia mode when the attack is going to " touch " them. And the rest too is right.
Nevertheless, you forgot to consider the second case I explained : when the logia user suffers an attack he had not seen and could not turn by himself in logia mode before the attack touches them. That means when our logia users that have normally the time or/and the reflex to turn into logia mode do not manage to do it. So, you considered the consciously, reflexively cases but not the automatically case.
That last case is exactly what happened with Ki Zaru and Apoo : and this is the only example of such a situation.
