King Moe

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@McNuss

Vivre cards just confirmed Weevil's strength being on par with Whitebeard as the Manga said.
Well he did defeat multiple of Whitebeard allies so for sure his power no joke, but he really same as Whitebeard? Is he Yonko lvl then?
 
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afromarco005

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are the games any good?
Do you like musou games? If yes then these games are for you otherwise its ok albeit a little repetitive.
 

hokageji

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Aah ok, i guess thats a no then.
Thanks for the reply.....


On another note, we saw one vice admiral, Onigumo, having 8 arms (spiderlike) with 8 swords, in addition to his 4 limbs. It is assumed to be a DF ability, but after Wano, it does look like he could be a SMILE user...
 

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Aah ok, i guess thats a no then.
Thanks for the reply.....


On another note, we saw one vice admiral, Onigumo, having 8 arms (spiderlike) with 8 swords, in addition to his 4 limbs. It is assumed to be a DF ability, but after Wano, it does look like he could be a SMILE user...
A SMILE user....in the Marines? I highly doubt it. LIkely just a spider df or something.
 

King Moe

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A SMILE user....in the Marines? I highly doubt it. LIkely just a spider df or something.
Hearing that remind me of that filler arc with Luffy vs Grant who could potentially be Smile User with his backstory. Wonder if Oda will make movie/filler characters canon to his story? Would like to have Grant and his side along with Zephyr and his side too.
 

hokageji

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A SMILE user....in the Marines? I highly doubt it. LIkely just a spider df or something.
Yea, no cos the maries is like the easy answer to it. My thinking is because the DF operates without affecting his limbs and acts independently. For the marines, afterall both CC and Vegapunk affilated with them in the past so its not like its impossible....
 

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A SMILE user....in the Marines? I highly doubt it. LIkely just a spider df or something.
Rather, Onigumo is likely an awakened Zoan, and Marco as well, since his supposed hybrid looks nothing like Pell's.
Thing is, we know that the ID Jailor Beasts are awakened, and they greatly resemble Choppers Monster Point - the mindless pre-skip version. So if we consider Monster Point to be a forced awakening, then that would make Rumble Ball an Awakening drug, and this in turn would mean that all of Chopper's Rumble ball forms are Awakening. Now after the timeskip Chopper can control these forms freely - taking drugs caused him to awaken - just like what real life drug users claim.

Now the other two (3?) Zoan users that displayed forms beyond the normal three are Marco and Onigumo (and Laffite?). Which makes me think they are awakened as well.
 

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Weekly Shonen Jump issue 34 (22nd July) will have new ONE PIECE spin-off manga called "Roronoa Zoro falls into the sea", which will be drawn by Boichi, author of Dr. Stone.

This title is the same as chapter 51, so it most likely focuses on the battle between Zoro and Mihawk. Some people may remember the spin-off manga about Sanji last year.


source: 5ch
Credits to sandman@AP for the news.

Well....Zoro fans...??
 

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Yea, no cos the maries is like the easy answer to it. My thinking is because the DF operates without affecting his limbs and acts independently.
How do you know it acts independently?
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Rather, Onigumo is likely an awakened Zoan, and Marco as well, since his supposed hybrid looks nothing like Pell's.
Thing is, we know that the ID Jailor Beasts are awakened, and they greatly resemble Choppers Monster Point - the mindless pre-skip version. So if we consider Monster Point to be a forced awakening, then that would make Rumble Ball an Awakening drug, and this in turn would mean that all of Chopper's Rumble ball forms are Awakening. Now after the timeskip Chopper can control these forms freely - taking drugs caused him to awaken - just like what real life drug users claim.

Now the other two (3?) Zoan users that displayed forms beyond the normal three are Marco and Onigumo (and Laffite?). Which makes me think they are awakened as well.
Impel Down Zoans are nothing like Chopper.

For one, the Impel Down Zoans are tamed and obedient.
  1. They eat out of bowls.
  2. They go on patrol as ordered to do.
They have a routine, that's not mindless, that's subservience.

Chopper on the other hand was rabid and wild. There's no way he can be Awakened if he needs drugs to use his form. Awakening requires mastery of one's DF. It's highly unlike to be Awakened.

Also, can't compare Chopper's ability to other Zoans. They might be in the same class, but they're vastly different. Chopper's ability has access to more than 2 specific transformations.

General Zoans have only 2 which are:
  1. Full beast Transformation
  2. Hybrid
  3. Lucci had a 3rd which was not a 3rd transformation, but rather, a Rokoshuki technique.
Chopper's ability is not a full-beast and then hybrid, his transformations are a lot more specific going from "Horn Point" to "Leg Point" and such. His ability is greatly different to others.

Most Zoans are also actually specific animal based types (e.g. Leopard, Giraffe, etc) whereas Chopper's Zoan is not specifically any animal type.

The Impel Down Zoans were also not said to be Awakened due to size as many people seem to theorise, they were deemed Awakened by their ability to recuperate very quickly. I highly doubt size is what determines whether or not a Zoan is Awakened. Would be even more likely that someone like Marco who is not gigantic is Awakened and has mastered his ability despite his somewhat small frame.

Can't expect all Zoans to also act in the same manner to given their differences and unique traits.
 

hokageji

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That's not really what defines a SMILE. SMILE are usually defective.
How about you answer in regards to Onigumo, is it a possibility that he's a SMILE user?
 

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How about you answer in regards to Onigumo, is it a possibility that he's a SMILE user?
As much possibility as suggesting that Zoro is married and has 4 children. While possible, there's no evidence. Not sarcasm by the way, point I'm making here is just because something is possible doesn't mean it's reasonable to entertain the idea if there's just no evidence towards it.

SMILE fruits have certain traits being defective:
  • They deform the person physically with odd spliced forms (e,g, Old Maid having an Elephant on his Toros permanently) or some form of dysmorphia like Speed who has half the body of a Horse?
  • SMILE users tend to have Black Horns.
  • SMILE users don't have volition to always activate their abilities and their abilities can act on their own choice.

Onigumo has none of these traits and he's able to transform at will without issues like any normal Zoan. Nothing about his ability is consistent with SMILE. There's no reason to suspect him of being a SMILE user based on everything we know so far.

More so, the only people we know that are SMILE users are people who bought Caesar's DFs after he fled from the WG. Highly unlikely a Vice-Admiral would be using a defective ability.
 

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How do you know it acts independently?
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---



Impel Down Zoans are nothing like Chopper.

For one, the Impel Down Zoans are tamed and obedient.
  1. They eat out of bowls.
  2. They go on patrol as ordered to do.
They have a routine, that's not mindless, that's subservience.

Chopper on the other hand was rabid and wild. There's no way he can be Awakened if he needs drugs to use his form. Awakening requires mastery of one's DF. It's highly unlike to be Awakened.

Also, can't compare Chopper's ability to other Zoans. They might be in the same class, but they're vastly different. Chopper's ability has access to more than 2 specific transformations.

General Zoans have only 2 which are:
  1. Full beast Transformation
  2. Hybrid
  3. Lucci had a 3rd which was not a 3rd transformation, but rather, a Rokoshuki technique.
Chopper's ability is not a full-beast and then hybrid, his transformations are a lot more specific going from "Horn Point" to "Leg Point" and such. His ability is greatly different to others.

Most Zoans are also actually specific animal based types (e.g. Leopard, Giraffe, etc) whereas Chopper's Zoan is not specifically any animal type.

The Impel Down Zoans were also not said to be Awakened due to size as many people seem to theorise, they were deemed Awakened by their ability to recuperate very quickly. I highly doubt size is what determines whether or not a Zoan is Awakened. Would be even more likely that someone like Marco who is not gigantic is Awakened and has mastered his ability despite his somewhat small frame.

Can't expect all Zoans to also act in the same manner to given their differences and unique traits.
Impel Down Zoans exactly mimik the looks of Monster Point. That one is rabid and Wild while the others are tamed can easily be attributed to the Government conditioning them. After all, Beasts can be tamed.

I doubt that Zoan Awakening makes you lose your personality. The ID Jailor Beasts are a likely a forced creation, and as such would be similar to Montser Point.

Chopper precisely mentions that his Rumble Balls manipulates the Wavelenghts of his DF. If there is science behind DFs, rather than "magic", and so far it looks like it, then of course Awakening can also be achieved by Drugs.

Choppers abililty is the same as other Zoans before the Timeskip, a Hybrid form (his standard form), a Human form and a Beast form. A Human is a specific animal just like Giraffe or Leopard. By the time Chopper was introduced, no other Hito Hito no Mi existed yet, and it was quite likely that Sengoku's classification as Hito Hito was added later.

It is likely a combination of their size and their regenarative abilities. I mean if they had looked different, Crocodile likely wouldn't have come to the conclusion, and would have more likely believed they are actual beasts. But as I said, the Monster form is only a variation of Awakening, I think Awakening let's you alter the "wavelenghts" of your DF, just like Rumble Balls do. And this would explain why Marco and Onigumo have forms that don't match the criteria of typical hybrid forms.
 

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Impel Down Zoans exactly mimik the looks of Monster Point. That one is rabid and Wild while the others are tamed can easily be attributed to the Government conditioning them. After all, Beasts can be tamed.
They don't mimick or look like monster point. That's like saying that because 2 things are big, they look the same. They're just big.

One is tamed and the other is wild, there's another difference. The comparison doesn't really work. They don't share much similarities like you're making out.

Chopper is unconscious or rather was unconscious in Monster Point and thus wild whereas the ID Zoans are conscious and obedient. Big difference there.

I doubt that Zoan Awakening makes you lose your personality. The ID Jailor Beasts are a likely a forced creation, and as such would be similar to Montser Point.
Only true thing here would be Awakening has nothing to do with losing personality.

As for the ID being forced creations, that doesn't make much sense. Forced in what sense?



They're likely just animals that have consumed Devil fruits or Inanimate objects that have been made to eat Zoan abilities.

More so, they don't have anything that makes them relatable to humans besides being anthropomorphic.

They eat leaves... humans don't do that which suggests they're either animals given DFs or Toys given that they have toyish (teddybear) looking eyes and dress like such.

Chopper precisely mentions that his Rumble Balls manipulates the Wavelenghts of his DF. If there is science behind DFs, rather than "magic", and so far it looks like it, then of course Awakening can also be achieved by Drugs.
Of his DF, not all DFs.

It also says "wavelength" of his transformations because each transformation has a certain wavelength.

It's never been stated that DFs operate like Chopper's and have any association with wavelengths.

Nothing concludes Awakening can be achieved by drugs.

Choppers abililty is the same as other Zoans before the Timeskip, a Hybrid form (his standard form), a Human form and a Beast form. A Human is a specific animal just like Giraffe or Leopard. By the time Chopper was introduced, no other Hito Hito no Mi existed yet, and it was quite likely that Sengoku's classification as Hito Hito was added later.
Nothing about Chopper has every been similar whether pre-skip or not. His ability has points while other Zoans have either beast or hybrid transformation.

Chopper's transformation are skill based transformations and not (hybrid or beast transformations):
  1. Brain point (Thinking skill)
  2. Horn point (Digging skill)
  3. Heavy point (Strengthening skill)
No other Zoan ability is similar to Chopper's to remotely compare them.

Chopper's ability doesn't even make him human, it only makes him intelligent. You do know that DF names do not always mean the literal thing they're called in One Piece? What the ability does describes it best.

It is likely a combination of their size and their regenarative abilities. I mean if they had looked different, Crocodile likely wouldn't have come to the conclusion, and would have more likely believed they are actual beasts. But as I said, the Monster form is only a variation of Awakening, I think Awakening let's you alter the "wavelenghts" of your DF, just like Rumble Balls do. And this would explain why Marco and Onigumo have forms that don't match the criteria of typical hybrid forms.
Size has nothing to do with it. It's not implied at all.



If we read it in context:
  • Mr.2 states that they had been defeated previously.
  • Crocodile simply states that they must be Awakened if they can recover that quickly.
The ability to recover is what hinted at being Awakened, not size.

Size is not what determines Awakening, otherwise Marco is not Awakened.

Awakening also doesn't let you alter the wavelengths, what the Rumble Ball is specific to Chopper.

Nothing about Marco or Onigumo is odd. All DFs are not the same and don't function exactly like the other.
 

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They don't mimick or look like monster point. That's like saying that because 2 things are big, they look the same. They're just big.

One is tamed and the other is wild, there's another difference. The comparison doesn't really work. They don't share much similarities like you're making out.

Chopper is unconscious or rather was unconscious in Monster Point and thus wild whereas the ID Zoans are conscious and obedient. Big difference there.
Ever since they were introduced people pointed out the visual similiarities between Chopper's Monster Point and them.
But yes you can claim otherwise, after all such kind of comparisons usually are quite subjective.

Well there was also a concioussnes inside Chopper, because if you are unconscious you are knocked out. The opposite of conscious is certainly not wild.
Someone that is conscious can be tamed and conditioned.



Only true thing here would be Awakening has nothing to do with losing personality.
The theory is that a dug-induced awakening wouldn't come without side-effects

As for the ID being forced creations, that doesn't make much sense. Forced in what sense?
They don't behave like they have any form of personal life. They are weapons, and wepaons typically are man-made.



They're likely just animals that have consumed Devil fruits or Inanimate objects that have been made to eat Zoan abilities.
More so, they don't have anything that makes them relatable to humans besides being anthropomorphic.
Why would an animal become antromorphic when awakened, now that makes no sense at all. An animal would have three forms, one of his own animal, one of the fruit animal, and one hybrid between them.

Similar, an object would be the object, the animal, or a Hybrid between them, as shown with Lassoo and Funkfreed.

They eat leaves... humans don't do that which suggests they're either animals given DFs or Toys given that they have toyish (teddybear) looking eyes and dress like such.
I think in you animal form you can eat animal diet. Why not? Carnivorous Zoas are associated with blood-thirst btw.


Of his DF, not all DFs.

It also says "wavelength" of his transformations because each transformation has a certain wavelength.

It's never been stated that DFs operate like Chopper's and have any association with wavelengths.
Why on Earth should Choppers DF be the special one, when it was always categorized as a Zoan, unlike Tamago's.


Nothing about Chopper has every been similar whether pre-skip or not. His ability has points while other Zoans have either beast or hybrid transformation.
"Point" is just the name Chopper has for them.

Chopper's transformation are skill based transformations and not (hybrid or beast transformations):
  1. Brain point (Thinking skill)
  2. Horn point (Digging skill)
  3. Heavy point (Strengthening skill)
No other Zoan ability is similar to Chopper's to remotely compare them.

Chopper's ability doesn't even make him human, it only makes him intelligent. You do know that DF names do not always mean the literal thing they're called in One Piece? What the ability does describes it best.
No, Choppers's Brain point is his reindeer/human hybrid, Heavy Point is his human form, and his Reindeer form is called Walking Point. These are his normal forms without any Rumble Ball Pre-TS and they are the same as any other Zoan users forms, with the only difference being that Choppers Hybrid Form makes him smaller, but Chopper is supposed to be the mascot, so it is more of a marketing choice. Original Chopper was a smoking adult btw.
Horn point requires a Rumble Ball.

Also, Humans have a wide range of diversity in One Piece. You think Chopper is odd when we have Gekko Moria?
It's a Zoan fruit. Zoans transform you into an animal, in this case a human. Humans are in turn, known for their intellect, Homo Sapiens.
Nothing ever pointed out for his Hito Hito no Mi to be special. You make it sound like it is actually a Paramecia.

Size has nothing to do with it. It's not implied at all.


If we read it in context:
  • Mr.2 states that they had been defeated previously.
  • Crocodile simply states that they must be Awakened if they can recover that quickly.
The ability to recover is what hinted at being Awakened, not size.
No.
The ability to recover is the greatest strenght of Awakened types. You turn his statement around.

Crocodile says something what Awakened Zoans can do, their "greatest strenght". He had already deduduced that they are awakened before. There is no "because" in his sentence and he isn't surprised at all unlike Mr. 2.

Greatest strenght =/= defining feature. If I say the greatest strenght of Fishmen is their ability to swim fast, would that make any fast swimmer a fishmen?

Size is not what determines Awakening, otherwise Marco is not Awakened.
The theory is that if you awaken naturally, you can flexibly change between a variety of forms, including the Monster, while a forced Awakening turns you into a brainless Monster

Awakening also doesn't let you alter the wavelengths, what the Rumble Ball is specific to Chopper.
Chopper's Rumble Ball is certainly specific for Chopper, but that Awakening has nothing to do with wavelenghts is your assumption. We don't know how Awakening works, yet.

Other drugs could be made for other people. You think a 15 year old reindeer can make a unique discovery, but the WG that has Vegapunk, who is specifically said to have researched Devil Fruits can't?

Nothing about Marco or Onigumo is odd. All DFs are not the same and don't function exactly like the other.
Their Hybrid Transformations look notably different, Marco (and Lafitte) only transform their limbs (arms), Onigumo transforms his hair into spider-legs.
All other Zoan fruits that have showcased all of their forms, wether you like it or not, follow the very same priciples. One full animal, one original form and a hybrid. In Onigumo's case we have seen the hybrid, but he also transformed his hair in his original form. The form with his spider like abdomen has to be the hybrid, because while we see it only from the back, it has 10 limbs, while spiders have only eight.
 

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Well there was also a concioussnes inside Chopper, because if you are unconscious you are knocked out. The opposite of conscious is certainly not wild.
Someone that is conscious can be tamed and conditioned.
He wasn't conscious which is why he's out of control. He's unable to think in that state.

They don't behave like they have any form of personal life. They are weapons, and wepaons typically are man-made.
They don't behave like people. All that's known is they're DF users. Doesn't necessarily mean they're man-made. Could simply be they're already beasts to begin with which would explain why they eat plants or are inanimate objects that ate DFs.

Why would an animal become antromorphic when awakened, now that makes no sense at all. An animal would have three forms, one of his own animal, one of the fruit animal, and one hybrid between them.
You read incorrectly.

Never said Awakening is correlated with becoming anthropomorphic.

An animal would have three forms, one of his own animal, one of the fruit animal, and one hybrid between them.
Thus why I said likely a toy given their appearance and clothing and fact that they eat plants like herbivores. Fact they don't display any form of intellectual intelligence proves they're not of human mind.

Similar, an object would be the object, the animal, or a Hybrid between them, as shown with Lassoo and Funkfreed.
Which is consistent with a toy/teddybear.

I think in you animal form you can eat animal diet. Why not? Carnivorous Zoas are associated with blood-thirst btw.
No evidence.

Why on Earth should Choppers DF be the special one, when it was always categorized as a Zoan, unlike Tamago's.
Not a valid question.

Has nothing to be with why it should be special.

The reality is if it's special and different, it is.

Just because an ability belongs to a group doesn't mean it will behave exactly like others in its group.

Some Paramecia are extremely different to their other Paramecia types.

There are after-all different models of Zoan.

"Point" is just the name Chopper has for them.
Nope, not true.

His forms are much different to others.

Others have beast forms and hybrids forms while Chopper has specific forms.

Heavy Point is his human form
Makes no sense.

Where is it stated that Heavy point is a human form?

Even after 2 years, he's looked less Human.



Pre-skip, his Horn Point has more Human features. He actually has 5 digits whereas 2 years later, he now has claws and 2 at that. He's not exactly become much more Human.

Horn point requires a Rumble Ball.
No it doesn't.

Chopper only needs a Rumble Ball for Monster Point.

Also, Humans have a wide range of diversity in One Piece. You think Chopper is odd when we have Gekko Moria?
It's a Zoan fruit. Zoans transform you into an animal, in this case a human. Humans are in turn, known for their intellect, Homo Sapiens.
Nothing ever pointed out for his Hito Hito no Mi to be special. You make it sound like it is actually a Paramecia.
It's just common sense since it behaves differently. Not me who made it act different, it visibly does.

No.
The ability to recover is the greatest strenght of Awakened types. You turn his statement around.

Crocodile says something what Awakened Zoans can do, their "greatest strenght". He had already deduduced that they are awakened before. There is no "because" in his sentence and he isn't surprised at all unlike Mr. 2.

Greatest strenght =/= defining feature. If I say the greatest strenght of Fishmen is their ability to swim fast, would that make any fast swimmer a fishmen?
That's a false statement on your part.

Mr.2's statement came first and then Crocodile replied.

He took the fact they were defeated and recovered quickly to deduce they were Awakened.

You claim it's because of size when that wasn't once implied or stated or even the subject of anything in his statement.

Just because there's no because, it's grammatical consistency when one point leads to another point. Might as well have a because in it. You do know things can be worded differently, the English language is just that diverse... there's more than 1 way to make the same point.

Greatest strenght =/= defining feature. If I say the greatest strenght of Fishmen is their ability to swim fast, would that make any fast swimmer a fishmen?
You're wrong.

In this context, the greatest strength is being defined as the feature that stands out amongst Awakened Zoans.

The theory is that if you awaken naturally, you can flexibly change between a variety of forms, including the Monster, while a forced Awakening turns you into a brainless Monster
No evidence for that and it's in fact debunked.

Chopper can only use Monster Point with a Rumble Ball.

If your theory was true, then Chopper should always lose his mind in Monster Point since it's performed using a Rumble Ball.

Also, Chopper was using Rumble Balls to perform certain points without losing his mind, it's only Monster Point that required 3 Rumble Balls and resulted in loss of mind.

The theory holds no water.

Their Hybrid Transformations look notably different, Marco (and Lafitte) only transform their limbs (arms), Onigumo transforms his hair into spider-legs.
All other Zoan fruits that have showcased all of their forms, wether you like it or not, follow the very same priciples. One full animal, one original form and a hybrid. In Onigumo's case we have seen the hybrid, but he also transformed his hair in his original form. The form with his spider like abdomen has to be the hybrid, because while we see it only from the back, it has 10 limbs, while spiders have only eight.
Marco is a mythical Zoans assuming you're not aware.

Onigumo is a spider. Spiders have 8 legs and Onigumo has 8 Spider limbs too. Maybe it's because he has 2 legs as a human and 8 Spider legs from his DF that results in 10 in his hybrid.

Nothing out of the ordinary there. Nothing is out of principle.
 

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And I am out. Sorry but this gets boring already. It's arguing for the sake of arguing.

I get that you somehow want Choppers fruit to be special. Despite no one ever calling it special. Tamago's fruit was called special, same as Katakuri's. Or all the mythical Zoan, and the Ancient ones. Choppers never.

And btw Horn points was a rumble Form pre-ts.
Heavy point, Brain point, walking point. Transformed, Hybrid, Original. Same as any other Zoan.

Onigumo has two different hybrid forms One has a spider like abdomen, the other transforms just the hair.

If you believe Chopper is different from other Zoans, fine. I will believe he inadvertly developed an Awakening drug.
Once Zoan Awakening gets explained, we will find out.

No point in discussing any further.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Btw Chessmarimo calls Heavy point his human form.
 

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@Hannibal Psyche

I had started by rebuttal to every point you made, just ended up doing CTRL+A and DEL.

While researching it, i found this...


This clearly shows the abdomen of the spider. And that disappears away in his normal form. So while there's still a possibility to debate him having a smile, i see the nature of the fruit (an arachnid instead of a tetrapod) as a possible option as well so will skip the debate for now.
 

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Didn't Pell have 6 limbs in his hybrid form?

Onigumo having weird transformations doesn't necessarily take away from the fact that he's still a legit zoan. It's just how Oda envisioned a spider-spider fruit user.
 
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