One Piece Mega Convo Thread

[Zehahaha]

Re: One Piece Chapter 776 Discussion / 777 Prediction

The term strongest is IMO not to be taken literally. Cause for a fact we know that hawkeyes is not the strongest swordsman cause raleigh and shanks are equal to him and WB is not the strongest man cause Garp,raleigh and Sengoku are equal to him. It is only a title to say he is one of the strongest beings out there.

He is called the greatest swordsman, not the strongest person.
This title simply means his skills with the sword are unparalleled so far, nothing about raw strength or being the strongest ever

WB's title being the strongest man is probably right, I can hardly imagine the fight had he been 20 years younger, his DF + unhuman stamina and physical feats are outstanding

 

[Mohsen]

Re: One Piece Chapter 776 Discussion / 777 Prediction

He is called the greatest swordsman, not the strongest person.
This title simply means his skills with the sword are unparalleled so far, nothing about raw strength or being the strongest ever

WB's title being the strongest man is probably right, I can hardly imagine the fight had he been 20 years younger, his DF + unhuman stamina and physical feats are outstanding

Does it make a difference? Shanks is also a swordsman and as long as Hawkeyes couldn't beat him in a swordfight he can't be literally taken as the greatest with the sword and i also doubt that hawkyes would be able to beat raleigh in a swordsfight cause raleigh too is a swordsman.

 

[Ketimatsu]

This doesn't really matter. The WG apparently ranks admirals, shichubukia and Yonko as equals. Yet they summoned all to fight one yonko. Doesn't really matter the circumstances, if their entire forces are expended fighting just one yonko, what of the other 3?

Of course it does, you have to take that in account in the "power" of a character. His ability to reunite people to fight together was consequent they acknoledged that.
This was called "war", so yes when there is a war you call all your forces, does not mean it would take the 3 admirals and the 7 Shichibukai to take him out alone.

Aokiji can make easily make ice far larger than that. One half of punk hazard is permanently frozen thanks to him. DD unfroze himself and left. That doesn't actually say/mean anything. He's a shichubukia, that much is expected of him.

Nothing to do here.... every each people he froze was done; Robin, Luffy, Joz, Sauro.... it says quite a lot. No need to freeze the whole sea....

I read again and I saw nothing about that.

Chapter 698

Anyway this is off topic. You inadvertently admitted that even though kaido is stronger, luffy might find a way around him. That's all well and good, however, the point remains that he is stronger at the moment...and apparently by a significant gap.
We all know luffy would eventually succeed in defeating the yonko and becoming pirate king. That doesn't mean he is capable of it at this time.

I said no such things... I said Luffy was weaker than Crocodile when he defeated him, I see no problem him doing the same if needed and well explained against a Yonkou. Again, we do not know anything about Kaido, how could I say he is stronger than Luffy or anybody else? Again Luffy almost lost to people way weaker than him like Foxy...

Again, I will repeat: We know nothing about Kaido, besides he has fun turning all his men into some animals. Why is he the "strongest", why does DD fear him? We have no clue. So I repeat myself, One Piece is not just a match of the "strongest".

Otherwise you can turn this way around: Shanks had no problem facing Kaidou to come to the war. Shanks was even with WB when they clashed. DD had fun and was not scared of WB. Conclusion: DD is stronger than Kaidou. See can turn the other way around easily. Back at the time, Luffy could not stand a chance in front of the admirals because they were Logias. Now it would be interesting to see Luffy true skills after the time skip to go beyond assumptions.

To illustrate all this; I would quote Oda himself: No one stood the chance against Enel in the sky, but he would have met many people able to kick his ass on the blue sea.

Haki allows you fight, doesn't mean you can fight equally. Chinjao for example had CoC, and yet he wasn't much to write home about. Vergo could do full body hardening, didn't prevent law from beating him easily. The list goes on. Even back at the war, ace and jozu used haki but barely fazed akainu. In the New world, haki is pretty common. Its like a prerequisite to survive in the NW.

I never said haki wouldn't allow him to fight with anyone, simply that it doesn't automatically translate to him being able to match everyone.

Well if you do not want to understand what I say; simply put, Haki is the power which allows you to face and fight anybody, particularly CoC, that's it. That is the meaning of "equal ground".

 

[Holt]

Of course it does, you have to take that in account in the "power" of a character. His ability to reunite people to fight together was consequent they acknoledged that.
This was called "war", so yes when there is a war you call all your forces, does not mean it would take the 3 admirals and the 7 Shichibukai to take him out alone.

Obviously not to take him out alone. However, like I said before, if it takes only a yonko to get the marines to assemble all their forces, then what of the other 3? Simply put, if 2 or more yonko gang up on the world government, they're done for. Yet they are 4 in number.

Nothing to do here.... every each people he froze was done; Robin, Luffy, Joz, Sauro.... it says quite a lot. No need to freeze the whole sea...

Robin, luffy weren't even remotely on aokiji's level when he froze them, so its only logical. Saul seemed to be weaker and aokiji had the advantage of being at sea when they fought.
DD unfroze himself. Jozu did lose his arm, but we saw DD panting after unfreezing himself.

Spoiler

Chapter 698

I see, but that wasn't the same chapter I was referring to that's why I got confused.

Again, I will repeat: We know nothing about Kaido, besides he has fun turning all his men into some animals. Why is he the "strongest", why does DD fear him? We have no clue. So I repeat myself, One Piece is not just a match of the "strongest".

He isn't turning his men into animals. He's doing the equivalent of handing out DF's to his men. We already knows why DD fears him, they are in a deal, DD failing to deliver would incure Kaido's wrath. This is canonically stated and backed.

Here's when we have DD's expression to law talking about kaido:

Spoiler

Note what law says: A war with him could get pretty ugly, he'll wipe the floor with you" reinforced by baby 5 stating that the color drained from DD's face and DD himself states law is going too far.

Otherwise you can turn this way around: Shanks had no problem facing Kaidou to come to the war. Shanks was even with WB when they clashed. DD had fun and was not scared of WB. Conclusion: DD is stronger than Kaidou. See can turn the other way around easily. Back at the time, Luffy could not stand a chance in front of the admirals because they were Logias. Now it would be interesting to see Luffy true skills after the time skip to go beyond assumptions.

And still goes the same way. Kaido had no issues challenging WB and his entire fleet (because he wanted to fight him en route marineford). I don't get your conclusion though. DD was mocking everyone at the war, and hardly got clashed with anyone himsef (aside crocodile and jozu). This is different though, DD had no clash sigh WB.

WB was an ailing and old man, something
pretty much everyone knew by the war. DD himself didn't get involved with WB, easy to keep a cool face when he hasn't clashed with him. BB was making fun of WB the whole time, yet his expression completely changed when WB attacked him and nearly killed him.

Well if you do not want to understand what I say; simply put, Haki is the power which allows you to face and fight anybody, particularly CoC, that's it. That is the meaning of "equal ground".

Which I'm already aware of. I said it doesn't mean you can fight equally. Again, I reference Marco and jozu attacking Akainu with haki with no visible effect.

---------- Post added at 08:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:24 PM ----------

The term strongest is IMO not to be taken literally. Cause for a fact we know that hawkeyes is not the strongest swordsman cause raleigh and shanks are equal to him and WB is not the strongest man cause Garp,raleigh and Sengoku are equal to him. It is only a title to say he is one of the strongest beings out there.

IMO, that is to be taken literally. For the other "strongest" titles, it denotes specific things. Mihawk for example is known as the "Worlds greatest swordsman". This refers to his skills as a swordsman. It doesn't actually list him as the strongest swordsman. Other things come into consideration like haki for instance. Basically, if mihawk fights anyone with high solely using swords and nothing else, then mihawk wins. This doesn't mean he can always beat swordmen in a fight because even though they primarily fight with a sword, other factors matter. Same for kaido who is known as the king of the beast.

For WB though, it seems to denote he is the strongest and getting this title after Roger's death reinforces this. Mihawk said he would like to measure how far he is from the strongest. We also had buggy say that WB was the only that was Roger's equal in battle.
Well, it is a matter of opinion like I said before, if WB duels garp or sengoku, can't be sure who would win but I believe WB would.

---------- Post added at 08:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:37 PM ----------

Let me remind you of what garp said:
The WG won't be able to handle Raleigh and WB at the same time. What does this tell you? And raleigh=Zoro of the old generation. and we know that Zoro and Luffy are near equal strength-wise or?

Ofcourse, rayleigh is incredibly powerful in his own right. However, the marines expended their forces to battle WB. At the time, they simply couldn't afford to fight someone that powerful. Doesn't mean rayleigh can beat WB. He can fight him and it would be pretty tough but WB still wins.

 

[Ketimatsu]

Trying not to understand on purpose?

He isn't turning his men into animals. He's doing the equivalent of handing out DF's to his men. We already knows why DD fears him, they are in a deal, DD failing to deliver would incure Kaido's wrath. This is canonically stated and backed.

Yes he gives smiles to his men, and as they are Zoan fruits, this is what "having fun turning all his men into animals" meant.....
Oh God, yes they are in a deal and if DD fucks up, the other would be angry. Still, why does he fear him so much? We do not know, put other way; what are the skills DD fear so much? No clue. He is not simply shaking because "ouh my my, the guy is a Yonkou, I am so affraid".

Which I'm already aware of. I said it doesn't mean you can fight equally. Again, I reference Marco and jozu attacking Akainu with haki with no visible effect.

I explained to you what "on equal ground" was implying = Marco attacking Aka Inu, it was bothering him enough. Should be enough already to make point....

And still goes the same way. Kaido had no issues challenging WB and his entire fleet (because he wanted to fight him en route marineford). I don't get your conclusion though. DD was mocking everyone at the war, and hardly got clashed with anyone himsef (aside crocodile and jozu). This is different though, DD had no clash sigh WB.

WB was an ailing and old man, something
pretty much everyone knew by the war. DD himself didn't get involved with WB, easy to keep a cool face when he hasn't clashed with him. BB was making fun of WB the whole time, yet his expression completely changed when WB attacked him and nearly killed him.

Well if you start arguing about fallacious syllogisms, there will be no end. Just to say all these assumptions were meaningless.
BTW: That's the way BB is, making fun, getting hit hard enough to the point he screams like a pig and fights. Did not see him close to be killed....

 

[Holt]

Yes he gives smiles to his men, and as they are Zoan fruits, this is what "having fun turning all his men into animals" meant.....
Oh God, yes they are in a deal and if DD fucks up, the other would be angry. Still, why does he fear him so much? We do not know, put other way; what are the skills DD fear so much? No clue. He is not simply shaking because "ouh my my, the guy is a Yonkou, I am so affraid".

I don't get why you place emphasis on his why DD fears him. Its battle oriented. That much is clear. Luffy isn't going to have a chat, he's declaring war (basically). In other words, the exact opposite of DD's position and its all the more relevant cus DD hardly gives a shit about anyone not to talk of being downright terrified.
Why were the marines terrified of facing WB and why were the WB pirates scared of facing garp? Did they encounter them in battle before? No. They were simply aware of how strong those two were.
DD failing would involve him and kaido getting into a fight and the thought of that terrifies DD. Which is enough info for now. Kaido's exact skills/abilities would become relevant should luffy defeat DD.

I explained to you what "on equal ground" was implying = Marco attacking Aka Inu, it was bothering him enough. Should be enough already to make point....

It was a correction. I already know haki allows you fight, but it doesn't mean it will be equal. That was what you initially said and that was what I corrected.

Well if you start arguing about fallacious syllogisms, there will be no end. Just to say all these assumptions were meaningless.
BTW: That's the way BB is, making fun, getting hit hard enough to the point he screams like a pig and fights. Did not see him close to be killed....

Well BB himself felt he was gonna get killed. He was practically begging WB not to kill him.

Like I said, BB was cocky and all, badmouthing WB from a safe distance. When WB actually attacks and puts him down, he's starts squealing and telling WB not to kill him, then he screams for his men to intervene and save him.

 

[Ketimatsu]

It was a correction. I already know haki allows you fight, but it doesn't mean it will be equal. That was what you initially said and that was what I corrected.

You misunderstood, I know what I said and I maintain it. No need to correct what I change for your understanding >.>

I don't get why you place emphasis on his why DD fears him. Its battle oriented. That much is clear. Luffy isn't going to have a chat, he's declaring war (basically). In other words, the exact opposite of DD's position and its all the more relevant cus DD hardly gives a shit about anyone not to talk of being downright terrified.
Why were the marines terrified of facing WB and why were the WB pirates scared of facing garp? Did they encounter them in battle before? No. They were simply aware of how strong those two were.
DD failing would involve him and kaido getting into a fight and the thought of that terrifies DD. Which is enough info for now. Kaido's exact skills/abilities would become relevant should luffy defeat DD.

Many things you do not get apparently, simply put DD is freaked out of Kaidou, yeah and so what? DD fears Kaidou does not make him the strongest etc. or whatsoever.
Every time you speak about different cases, I should advise you to state clearly your argument and stop going around. WB was feared because he had the power to destroy the world, no need to fight him previously to fear that.....

It is like the bounties: the higher your bid is, does not make you stronger. Yes there is a correlation between the amount of the bounty and the strength, but other criterions are accounted in the calcul. Is it clear enough?

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

Kaidou is prolly not even human, so I guess he's pretty strong, strong enough to scare DD. But it does look like Shanks could have been stronger if indeed they clashed and Shanks got the upper hand. Needless to say that titles are just titles without actually seeing what the person can do in battle, and in this case we don't even know what Kaidou looks like. So to me it does look like it's a bit premature to draw conclusions about Kaidou and the Yonko in general.We simply don't have enough information to make up our mind, and I doubt we would get any before Luffy faces them, with the exception of BB of course, and even then there's the possibility that he would have acquired another fruit.
As to why DD is scared of Kaidou for now everything seems to point out to him fearing him because he's stronger. Plus I get the feeling that DD would have to fight some members of Kaidou's crew as well...yeah he's pretty much fucked. As for having any other reason to fear him there is simply no hint to that as of now, maybe when this arc is over we actually get to see DD being brought before Kaidou and having to face his wrath. It's only a matter of time imo.

 

[Holt]

You misunderstood, I know what I said and I maintain it. No need to correct what I change for your understanding >.>

Ok.

Many things you do not get apparently, simply put DD is freaked out of Kaidou, yeah and so what? DD fears Kaidou does not make him the strongest etc. or whatsoever.
Every time you speak about different cases, I should advise you to state clearly your argument and stop going around. WB was feared because he had the power to destroy the world, no need to fight him previously to fear that.....

It is like the bounties: the higher your bid is, does not make you stronger. Yes there is a correlation between the amount of the bounty and the strength, but other criterions are accounted in the calcul. Is it clear enough?

It isn't like bounties. I'm not going in circles. Law clearly says DD failing Kaido means they would be tossed into a war and goes on to say Kaido would wipe the floor with DD and DD's reactions proves he is well aware of that.
I never said Kaido is the strongest. Its clearly put out there. There's nothing else to look it. I'm not going around in circles.

Bounties are given to the ones who cause marines the most trouble. Not based on strength. A war has nothing to do with that though. A war is a battle, titles are meaningless in battle, yet DD fears to engage kaido.


Why was garp/sengoku feared? Why was shanks appearance enough to end the war? We know very little about shanks. He clashed with WB once but that's hardly a fight and it was one panel. What skills does shanks have for him to be revered so?

If someone like akainu is afraid of fighting someone, then we can easily deduce the level of power based on akainu's usual fearlessness and his strength. Why then does this not apply to DD? Luffy would be taking on Kaido in a war which would have been the case with DD if he fails and DD is terrified of engaging Kaido. That's already more than enough. Until luffy defeats DD, we can't be comparing him to kaido.

The reason is hardly important, even if you want to say its because of his large crew (which I believe is what you've been implying), luffy would still have to face that. Whatever the reason is for DD being scared or crossing Kaido, luffy would face them as well. Or perhaps you have a plausible reason for DD fearing kaido that would not apply to luffy in terms of war/battle?

 

[Ketimatsu]

Just to be brief; no need to go all over again what you do not understand:

Whatever the reason is for DD being scared or crossing Kaido, luffy would face them as well. Or perhaps you have a plausible reason for DD fearing kaido that would not apply to luffy in terms of war/battle?

Check Luffy and Enel, it is a good exemple. He was a God, everybody was scared, one shot all the straw hats, but against Luffy, he could not do anything in a real fight. If you think One piece is all about strength, read again everything. We saw it in the chapter today too with Pica and Zoro. Pica has a great power still there is a trick behind it. To quote Crocodile: "You never know how a power would react to another one". So as we do not know anything about Kaidou, not much we could say even though DD is scared of him.

Kaidou is prolly not even human, so I guess he's pretty strong, strong enough to scare DD. But it does look like Shanks could have been stronger if indeed they clashed and Shanks got the upper hand. Needless to say that titles are just titles without actually seeing what the person can do in battle, and in this case we don't even know what Kaidou looks like. So to me it does look like it's a bit premature to draw conclusions about Kaidou and the Yonko in general.We simply don't have enough information to make up our mind, and I doubt we would get any before Luffy faces them, with the exception of BB of course, and even then there's the possibility that he would have acquired another fruit.
As to why DD is scared of Kaidou for now everything seems to point out to him fearing him because he's stronger. Plus I get the feeling that DD would have to fight some members of Kaidou's crew as well...yeah he's pretty much fucked. As for having any other reason to fear him there is simply no hint to that as of now, maybe when this arc is over we actually get to see DD being brought before Kaidou and having to face his wrath. It's only a matter of time imo.

Exactly. Point taken. +1

 

[Holt]

Just to be brief; no need to go all over again what you do not understand:


Check Luffy and Enel, it is a good exemple. He was a God, everybody was scared, one shot all the straw hats, but against Luffy, he could not do anything in a real fight. If you think One piece is all about strength, read again everything. We saw it in the chapter today too with Pica and Zoro. Pica has a great power still there is a trick behind it. To quote Crocodile: "You never know how a power would react to another one". So as we do not know anything about Kaidou, not much we could say even though DD is scared of him.

I did say match-ups matter however, doesn't seem like there's anything kaido has that luffy would be naturally immune to. That's why I asked you if you feel there's anything DD would be affected by in a war with kaido that doesn't apply to luffy.

You're expecting kaido to have some sort of convenient weakness that only Luffy can exploit. We've been given hints that kaido is a zoan fruit user or atleast some sort of beast.

As for the examples, its usually the other way round. Eg, enel was seen as stronger to luffy until they fought and we discovered luffy was naturally immune. Same for crocodile and lucci. So why does this change for kaido? For now, he is seen as stronger than luffy until luffy defeats him. Luffy would eventually defeat him either way.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

Moderator Notice:
Please keep the discussion civil~ ladylola

 

[Ketimatsu]

doesn't seem like there's anything kaido has that luffy would be naturally immune to

Well we do not know, Oda is the only one who knows. Not only speaking about immunity. As I showed with Enel, it could be the case. Meaning maybe there is a reason that especially DD fears him, maybe not. And it is not question of war.

You're expecting kaido to have some sort of convenient weakness that only Luffy can exploit. We've been given hints that kaido is a zoan fruit user or atleast some sort of beast.

No I don't.
Well, it is your opinion. The only hint we got was from Law saying he is "a creature". He could be something totally different from a Zoan, though it is one of the possibilities.

As for the examples, its usually the other way round. Eg, enel was seen as stronger to luffy until they fought and we discovered luffy was naturally immune. Same for crocodile and lucci. So why does this change for kaido? For now, he is seen as stronger than luffy until luffy defeats him. Luffy would eventually defeat him either way.

Three different cases:

- Enel never matched Luffy, maybe you thought he was stronger because of all the things said about him. Exactly same thing with Kaidou: to you he is seen as stronger than Luffy. And I said, does not mean anything: as long they do not meet and we learn about Kaido we do not know. Maybe he is, maybe he is not.

- Crocodile was stronger than him, Luffy was saved three times to be able to K.O him. Two times by Robin, one time pure luck.

 

[Holt]

Well we do not know, Oda is the only one who knows. Not only speaking about immunity. As I showed with Enel, it could be the case. Meaning maybe there is a reason that especially DD fears him, maybe not. And it is not question of war.

Thus why it remains kaido>luffy until proven otherwise. How many times would luffy have died without intervention from others or his opponent underestimating him? Numerous characters have proven to be stronger
than him. Even in the marineford war, he was out of his league.

You're assuming there's something special about kaido that only affects DD but that's mostly wishful thinking. They get tossed into a war, DD knows he'll lose easily. Something as far as we know isn't specific to DD alone. You're just assuming that it is

- Enel never matched Luffy, maybe you thought he was stronger because of all the things said about him. Exactly same thing with Kaidou: to you he is seen as stronger than Luffy. And I said, does not mean anything: as long they do not meet and we learn about Kaido we do not know. Maybe he is, maybe he is not.

Enel was clearly stronger than luffy, just that luffy was immune. That much is obviously clear. Had luffy not been a immune, enel would have soundly defeated him. Its not about what was said about him, its what he showed. It would have been a replay of aokiji vs the SH's if luffy wasn't immune.

- Crocodile was stronger than him, Luffy was saved three times to be able to K.O him. Two times by Robin, one time pure luck.

Which is the point. Luffy would have been long dead if crocodile had taken him serious from the beginning and decided to kill him. Even after his defeat, crocodile still poisoned him and it was lethal, then he got saved again.

The way one piece is, you have certain match-ups that are favorable to some and then you have some which the weaker person wins. Most times, luffy turns out to be weaker but still pulls a win. That doesn't mean that objectively speaking, luffy is stronger.

Eg buggy vs mihawk in the war, mihawk is clearly miles ahead in strength, however buggys DF makes him a natural enemy. This doesn't mean that buggy is stronger than Mihawk. Or Zoro and pica. Zoro is clearly stronger than pica, but the latter has managed to evade him for quite some time now.

Its all well and good if you believe luffy can defeat kaido, because he will. However, that doesn't change that kaido is stronger as of now. Depending on how he wins, that might not even change after kaido is defeated.

Like I said before, even before WB was introduced, we could clearly deduce he was one of the strongest fighters. Just like we don't even know how Roger fought or his abilities but we know he is about the strongest character in one piece.

 

[Ketimatsu]

Thus why it remains kaido>luffy until proven otherwise. How many times would luffy have died without intervention from others or his opponent underestimating him? Numerous characters have proven to be stronger
than him. Even in the marineford war, he was out of his league.

No, we don't have any idea. You can suppose it, end of the line, no more. And it is not about Luffy matching Kaidou, it was all about Kaido being the strongest etc. 'til the moment we see him, we will not know who can match him or not.

Okay now come on; please be careful of what I say: I never assumed there was a power only affecting DD. I just say it is a possibility.

Most times, luffy turns out to be weaker but still pulls a win. That doesn't mean that objectively speaking, luffy is stronger.

No no this is damn wrong. Or do you really think, Luffy was weaker when he won his fights? Besides Crocodile...., Lucci they were pretty even, it was close but Luffy won clear and square. Moria, nothing to say. And so on. Otherwise, he lost when he was weaker.
Enel was only relying on his power, when he could not use it, he was that good. When I say crocodile was stronger, it is because even when Luffy could hit him, he lost.

 

[Holt]

No, we don't have any idea. You can suppose it, end of the line, no more. And it is not about Luffy matching Kaidou, it was all about Kaido being the strongest etc. 'til the moment we see him, we will not know who can match him or not.

Ok then. I supposed Roger isn't stronger than luffy until we see him.

Okay now come on; please be careful of what I say: I never assumed there was a power only affecting DD. I just say it is a possibility.

Exactly, its an assumption which needs proof as backup. For now, we do not simply assume everyone luffy is going to face will have abilities that luffy is conveniently immune to.

No no this is damn wrong. Or do you really think, Luffy was weaker when he won his fights? Besides Crocodile...., Lucci they were pretty even, it was close but Luffy won clear and square. Moria, nothing to say. And so on. Otherwise, he lost when he was weaker.
Enel was only relying on his power, when he could not use it, he was that good. When I say crocodile was stronger, it is because even when Luffy could hit him, he lost.

I did not say all his fights.
Luffy had help against moria (he got a 100 shadows to power himself up), and was naturally immune to enel.

Point being, there are only few fights that he won solely on his own due to being stronger than his opponent. He does end up winning more often than not, however its not always because he is stronger.

 

[Ketimatsu]

Exactly, its an assumption which needs proof as backup. For now, we do not simply assume everyone luffy is going to face will have abilities that luffy is conveniently immune to.

Again, only an exemple to say, reasons why DD fear are numerous. Meaning it is not enough to know who could face Kaidou or not. Whatever the reason.

Point being, there are only few fights that he won solely on his own due to being stronger than his opponent. He does end up winning more often than not, however its not always because he is stronger.

Against Moria he did not have the shadows, it was against Odz. He won after against Moria alone. I give you Enel since you want him so much because he was "immune".

Really? Buggy, Kuro, Krieg, Arlong, Mr. 3, Foxy, Blueno, Moria, Hody, Bellamy, Caesar, Arbyda, Morgan, Don Chinjao, Wapol. And I can find probably some others. (Fights he won)

 

[Holt]

Again, only an exemple to say, reasons why DD fear are numerous. Meaning it is not enough to know who could face Kaidou or not. Whatever the reason.

Is there? As of now, there's only one reason and that's because he is afraid of engaging kaido in a war. Any other reason is speculation. If someone like DD who is powerful in his own right and has quite a number of subordinates who would fight for him is afraid of fighting kaido, why doesn't that apply to luffy since he hasn't not defeated DD yet?

Against Moria he did not have the shadows, it was against Odz. He won after against Moria alone. I give you Enel since you want him so much because he was "immune".

Oz is part of Moria forces though. He would have been able to take oz but then he wouldn't have enough power left for moria.

Really? Buggy, Kuro, Krieg, Arlong, Mr. 3, Foxy, Blueno, Moria, Hody, Bellamy, Caesar, Arbyda, Morgan, Don Chinjao, Wapol. And I can find probably some others. (Fights he won)

I know about buggy up to arlong (and prior).
Like I said, not all the fights. Also since luffy got to the new world, he hasn't faced a tough opponent.
I'm also talking about major opponents not just every antagonist and lastly I said he doesn't always win because he's stronger. He turns out to be weaker on some occasions. Basically on the big occasions.


There's crocodile, aokiji, kuma, kizaru, garp, sentomaru, pacifista, magiellan, smoker, mihawk, Akainu and others. He. has emerged alive from most of these largely because he was spared or saved.

Luffy can win even though he isn't always stronger. Which is the point. Mihawk stated in the war that luffy has the special ability to make people want to fight for him which is the most dangerous thing.

 

[Rikudobito]

Enel never matched Luffy, maybe you thought he was stronger because of all the things said about him. Exactly same thing with Kaidou: to you he is seen as stronger than Luffy. And I said, does not mean anything: as long they do not meet and we learn about Kaido we do not know. Maybe he is, maybe he is not.

Kaido is far stronger than Luffy and he's been portrayed as such for the simple fact that he's part of the Yonko. There's a reason as to why Kaido is a member of the Yonko and why DD would prefer to fight a marine admiral rather than go up against him. Seriously, Kaido wanted to take Whitebeard's life before the war of the best and anyone weaker or equal to luffy would never dare to do such a thing. Luffy as he is currently, is still pretty much below Admiral level and before ever facing an admiral, he'll probably go up against a member of the CP-0.

Luffy's still not at the required level to fight and defeat Kaido. Law stated that even with the pirate alliance b/w the SH crew and the heart pirates, their chances of defeating Kaido are 30%. The Yonko are a step below the Pirate King and are known as the 4 most powerful pirates as of now. Akainu's attack was stopped easily by Shanks so you've got a clear indication of the strength of an emperor. As a member of the Yonko, you can expect Kaido to have a very powerful Haki and should his DF ( if he has one ) have a disadvantage against that of Luffy, his haki should be able to compensate for this weakness.

Luffy failed to last even a minute against DD while the latter is constantly proving that he's close to an Admiral's level in terms of battle prowess and skills. Despite this, DD fears Kaido and would try to avoid a battle/confrontation with Kaido as much as possible. It's pretty clear that Luffy is still not strong enough to beat Kaido. He'll probably arrive at that level in 200-300 Chapters.

 

[Ketimatsu]

I stop arguing with you, this going nowhere. Basically because you go around, therefore it will be endless. Just to finish as a proof:

Point being, there are only few fights

You say few, I put almost all the fighters.... basically there are only a couple of fights he won despite being weaker. After that you say:

Like I said, not all the fights.

Yes, you said only a few he won on his own, I showed you the contrary.

We are speaking about the fights he won, why do you bring on the table the fights he lost? I specifically mention the fights he WON, this is what we were talking about. There is no need to argue if you change the subject.

Kaido is far stronger than Luffy and he's been portrayed as such for the simple fact that he's part of the Yonko. There's a reason as to why Kaido is a member of the Yonko and why DD would prefer to fight a marine admiral rather than go up against him. Seriously, Kaido wanted to take Whitebeard's life before the war of the best and anyone weaker or equal to luffy would never dare to do such a thing. Luffy as he is currently, is still pretty much below Admiral level and before ever facing an admiral, he'll probably go up against a member of the CP-0.

Luffy's still not at the required level to fight and defeat Kaido. Law stated that even with the pirate alliance b/w the SH crew and the heart pirates, their chances of defeating Kaido are 30%. The Yonko are a step below the Pirate King and are known as the 4 most powerful pirates as of now. Akainu's attack was stopped easily by Shanks so you've got a clear indication of the strength of an emperor. As a member of the Yonko, you can expect Kaido to have a very powerful Haki and should his DF ( if he has one ) have a disadvantage against that of Luffy, his haki should be able to compensate for this weakness.

Luffy failed to last even a minute against DD while the latter is constantly proving that he's close to an Admiral's level in terms of battle prowess and skills. Despite this, DD fears Kaido and would try to avoid a battle/confrontation with Kaido as much as possible. It's pretty clear that Luffy is still not strong enough to beat Kaido. He'll probably arrive at that level in 200-300 Chapters.

Same than with Holt; it is your opinion. Good, it can be. But do not state it as real facts. We do not even know the extent of Luffy's strength at the moment, since he has not got a real fight in ages. As Holt said, Luffy wins sometimes even if he is weaker. That was the case with his first Shichibukai, you can expect him to do the same with his first Yonkou. He did not last against DD because he was careless, typical of him, let's wait to assert things here again.

Do not use the 30%, Law included it as the chances of strategy and since all he said was lies, this could be totally untrue. The goal was not Kaidou but DD, chances that he has been to Dressrosa before and so on. He had to be credible to hope Luffy will go with him according to the plan.

Seriously, Kaido wanted to take Whitebeard's life before the war of the best and anyone weaker or equal to luffy would never dare to do such a thing.

Moria dared to fight Kaidou, Crocodile dared to fight WB....