One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

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• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[albertwv]

So who has the strongest commanders??!
Big Mom?
White Beard ?
Shanks ?
WhiteBeard?!

Commanders as in the Top 3/4? Like the Sweet Commanders, the Calamities and the 1-5 WB Commanders?
Or are you talking about the Oven, Daifuku, Peros, Flying 6, 6-16 WB Commanders, etc.?

Assuming you are just talking about the Top 3/4 Commanders.
I would say WB before MF war happened.
I seriously believe if The WB Pirates with both Ace and Thatch alive & a heatlhy old WB, had invaded MF in a leveled playing field, they would have won with serious casaulties but nonetheless won the war.
That goes against any other Yonko crew as well. Say WBP vs BP or BMP or RHP.

As I mentioned before, I do not like to rate the RHP or BBP Commanders until we have seen more of them. IDC what the VC says about Beckman, until we see him in action, I wont rate him near Shanks' level.

I do wish to see more of Jozu and Vista. I still think they are the strongest YC2s.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Oh my, that video was so embaressing. I cringed so bad I had to force myself to finish it

Yikes

 

[Core D. Roy]

I'm struggling with where the hell to put Ace in my tier table. He really does throw a wrench into properly powerscaling. I know it wasn't a fight to the death or anything, but him clashing with Yamato is... ugh.

 

[BoyNextDoor]

I'm struggling with where the hell to put Ace in my tier table. He really does throw a wrench into properly powerscaling. I know it wasn't a fight to the death or anything, but him clashing with Yamato is... ugh.

just put him at YC1+

 

[McNuss]

I'm struggling with where the hell to put Ace in my tier table. He really does throw a wrench into properly powerscaling. I know it wasn't a fight to the death or anything, but him clashing with Yamato is... ugh.

Ace and Sabo were equal as children, while Luffy was weaker due to being younger.

Imho from that comparison, Ace was as strong as Luffy at the start of after the timeskip (which made Luffy catch up). Strong mastery of Devil Fruit (Dai Enkai: Entei/Gear Fourth), much less mastery of Haki (Ace being unable to damage Admirals, Luffy requiring Haki Power-Ups to beat Katakuri and Kaido). Yamato from Yamato vs Ace is also a younger Yamato, but since they were equal back then, I think if Ace were alive right now he'd be somewhere between Yamato and Sabo.

 

[Core D. Roy]

just put him at YC1+

Yeah... as it stands I have him above King and Katakuri in part because Yamato is even higher than that. It feels weird to have him so high, but the little bit we do know about him kinda necessitates it. Whitebeard's crew was just straight up STACKED.

 

[albertwv]

I'm struggling with where the hell to put Ace in my tier table. He really does throw a wrench into properly powerscaling. I know it wasn't a fight to the death or anything, but him clashing with Yamato is... ugh.

We had a whole discussion 2 weeks ago regarding Ace lol.
There are some extremists who believe Ace is YC1/YC1+ (LMAO).
Dont kid yourself he is NOT near YC1.
Best bet was YC3. Ace is not on Kata's level. Ace's haki was nowhere near great. His best feat was fighting equally with Jimbei.

People try to oversell the Ace vs Aokiji (im bringing up it right now to shut it down)
It was NOTHING special. His Fire DF countered Aokiji's Ice DF. Fire vs Ice literally. That was it.
What Jozu did was more impressive, how he managed to make Aokiji bleed.
Not only that but we saw how Aokiji managed to fight Akainu for 10 days, who CLEARLY outranks Ace in terms of power, DF, and haki.

Marcos > Jozu >/= Vista > Ace > Rest of WB Commanders
That is the ranking among the WBP commanders. Anybody who says otherwise about Ace's placement/strength clearly is wrong.

 

[AmitDS]

Marcos > Jozu >/= Vista > Ace > Rest of WB Commanders
That is the ranking among the WBP commanders. Anybody who says otherwise about Ace's placement/strength clearly is wrong.

A bit extreme there... lol

Imo I put Vista as >= Jozu (Vista being YC2 and Jozu YC3) tho because of his duo with Marco against Akainu, coupled with his and Marco's VCs stating that they were "Veteran Members" of the WBP, while Jozu markedly didn't have that "Veteran Member" trait (ik you disregard VCs but it's worth mentioning).
This is strictly conjecture as well, but I find Jozu's treatment in MF vs. Marco's and Vista's was horrible xD and that kinda contributes to my placement as well lol

Scrutinizing Ace's fights/clashes and trying to powerscale him, as @zetsu banned said, is messy because his various clashes with various tiered people and also comparing him against other YCs we've seen muddies the water. We have his pre-ts stuff, like his encounter with Smoker compared to his clash with Aokiji, and even his fight with BB and now post-ts, having a flashback fight with Yamato in Onigashima. In essence, he's all over the place lmao.

I think we can all agree tho, if he had lived he would've surely become YC1/ "YC1+" and he had CoC so maybe even an AdCoC user to boot.

 

[Core D. Roy]

Best bet was YC3. Ace is not on Kata's level. Ace's haki was nowhere near great. His best feat was fighting equally with Jimbei.

Ace only lived during a period in which haki was even more nebulously written than it is now. All we have to go on are his clash with Yamato, his days-long duel with Blackbeard (Past), and his duel with Jinbei. Not only was he revealed to have that clash with Yamato- who is stupidly powerful- he was retconned into having Color of the Conqueror. Ace is a character whose scaling has increased over the years with the power creep of the series itself. It's not ridiculous to put him above King and Katakuri. His fruit mastery was high tier, but it was direct mismatch against the likes of Jinbei and Blackbeard.

Basically ya I agree with AmitDS. If he had lived through the timeskip, it'd probably be pretty easy to place him as YC1/+. Again, I think that's more about how the system of haki evolved in every arc after his death. IIRC even the Ace sidestories tried to highlight that he was more powerful in reality than he was the few times we saw him in action.

 

[grey matter]

If Ace was still alive, he would be admiral tier EASILY. Maybe even borderline Yonko tier. His potential arguably exceeds even Luffy's

By the time of his death, I put him at YC1 tier or borderline that level. Below Katakuri and King But still, still same tier

@zetsu banned
I wish more people understand how the introduction of haki changed how we view everything. Ace died when the concept of haki was just in it's infancy and even Oda didn't know much about how it would develop/it's importance later on

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 29, 2021, Original Post Date: Dec 29, 2021 ---

So who has the strongest commanders??!
Big Mom?
White Beard ?
Shanks ?
WhiteBeard?!

From what we know, Whitebeard easily, before his crew started falling apart.
5 commanders, 4 of them really strong (Marco, Vista, Ace, Jozu)

The strongest commander however is probably Shanks' Ben Beckman

 

[albertwv]

Ace only lived during a period in which haki was even more nebulously written than it is now. All we have to go on are his clash with Yamato, his days-long duel with Blackbeard (Past), and his duel with Jinbei. Not only was he revealed to have that clash with Yamato- who is stupidly powerful- he was retconned into having Color of the Conqueror. Ace is a character whose scaling has increased over the years with the power creep of the series itself. It's not ridiculous to put him above King and Katakuri. His fruit mastery was high tier, but it was direct mismatch against the likes of Jinbei and Blackbeard.

Basically ya I agree with AmitDS. If he had lived through the timeskip, it'd probably be pretty easy to place him as YC1/+. Again, I think that's more about how the system of haki evolved in every arc after his death. IIRC even the Ace sidestories tried to highlight that he was more powerful in reality than he was the few times we saw him in action.

I agree he MAY have gotten to YC1 if he was alive. But he didnt so lets put that to rest.
Haki during MF war was somewhat prominent.
We have no idea how strong Yamato was at that time and also it seemed that Yamato had no intention of fighting/defending Kaido's castle. They fought but it doesnt show to what extend and we cannot claim Ace is YC1 because he fought with Yamato years ago.

It is SO ridiculous to put him near Kata or King's level. Ace did not show anything near their mastery of DF or Haki.
Yeah he had CoC and....? That just shows he had high ambition. Unless he had ACoC then I would rate him higher.

His Df mastery was great, but he seem to be heavily reliant on his DF Logia. Nowhere near the level Crocodile or Doffy much less Kata's mastery of DF.

A bit extreme there... lol

Imo I put Vista as >= Jozu (Vista being YC2 and Jozu YC3) tho because of his duo with Marco against Akainu, coupled with his and Marco's VCs stating that they were "Veteran Members" of the WBP, while Jozu markedly didn't have that "Veteran Member" trait (ik you disregard VCs but it's worth mentioning).
This is strictly conjecture as well, but I find Jozu's treatment in MF vs. Marco's and Vista's was horrible xD and that kinda contributes to my placement as well lol

Yeah Vista and Jozu are on par, mainly because they both blocked/clashed with Mihawk and attacked the Admirals, with only Jozu actually making Aokiji bleed.
Did the VC state that, regarding the bold? If so, even more of a reason to distrust that information. Not saying that they arent veterans of the WBP, but if the VC is excluding Jozu, then it adds to my point on why not to trust the VC.
We are certain that Jozu IS a veteran of the WBP. He was there with Marco and Vista when WB landed in Wano. We know Jozu has been with them since then and Marcos was a rookie, I am assuming Jozu and Vista were rookies too. Jozu has more time in the WBP than BB did, and BB was a veteran too.
The reason I like to put Jozu above Vista is because with the introduction of the WBP, it was Marcos and Jozu who were introduced as the 1st and 3rd DC respectively, Vista wasnt shown at all. Maybe its nothing but to me it shows Oda already had Marcos and Jozu in mind.

If Ace was still alive, he would be admiral tier EASILY. Maybe even borderline Yonko tier. His potential arguably exceeds even Luffy's

By the time of his death, I put him at YC1 tier or borderline that level. Below Katakuri and King But still, still same tier

@zetsu banned
I wish more people understand how the introduction of haki changed how we view everything. Ace died when the concept of haki was just in it's infancy and even Oda didn't know much about how it would develop/it's importance later on

Oh god, we have an Ace Extremist over here.
I totally 100% disagree. The story isnt about Ace but rather Luffy. While if Ace was alive he would be stronger, not to that degree you claim. Admiral level? Cmon.
Only Luffy would have a huge power increase potential in such short time.
I say if Ace was alive after the TS, he would probably be the same level or YC2, but not YC1. Although he showed great potential, I dont see him getting stronger than the YC1s, at least that quickly in 2 years.

Why dont people understand Ace was not that strong? Why do they like to overhype/overrate him?

 

[Core D. Roy]

I agree he MAY have gotten to YC1 if he was alive. But he didnt so lets put that to rest.
Haki during MF war was somewhat prominent.
We have no idea how strong Yamato was at that time and also it seemed that Yamato had no intention of fighting/defending Kaido's castle. They fought but it doesnt show to what extend and we cannot claim Ace is YC1 because he fought with Yamato years ago.

It is SO ridiculous to put him near Kata or King's level. Ace did not show anything near their mastery of DF or Haki.
Yeah he had CoC and....? That just shows he had high ambition. Unless he had ACoC then I would rate him higher.

His Df mastery was great, but he seem to be heavily reliant on his DF Logia. Nowhere near the level Crocodile or Doffy much less Kata's mastery of DF.



Yeah Vista and Jozu are on par, mainly because they both blocked/clashed with Mihawk and attacked the Admirals, with only Jozu actually making Aokiji bleed.
Did the VC state that, regarding the bold? If so, even more of a reason to distrust that information. Not saying that they arent veterans of the WBP, but if the VC is excluding Jozu, then it adds to my point on why not to trust the VC.
We are certain that Jozu IS a veteran of the WBP. He was there with Marco and Vista when WB landed in Wano. We know Jozu has been with them since then and Marcos was a rookie, I am assuming Jozu and Vista were rookies too. Jozu has more time in the WBP than BB did, and BB was a veteran too.
The reason I like to put Jozu above Vista is because with the introduction of the WBP, it was Marcos and Jozu who were introduced as the 1st and 3rd DC respectively, Vista wasnt shown at all. Maybe its nothing but to me it shows Oda already had Marcos and Jozu in mind.




Oh god, we have an Ace Extremist over here.
I totally 100% disagree. The story isnt about Ace but rather Luffy. While if Ace was alive he would be stronger, not to that degree you claim. Admiral level? Cmon.
Only Luffy would have a huge power increase potential in such short time.
I say if Ace was alive after the TS, he would probably be the same level or YC2, but not YC1. Although he showed great potential, I dont see him getting stronger than the YC1s, at least that quickly in 2 years.

Why dont people understand Ace was not that strong? Why do they like to overhype/overrate him?

I'm not a big fan of Ace at all lol. I don't gravitate towards super-duper-cool-guy characters.

He was definitely more "tell" instead of "show", but idk it's clear to me anyways that Oda was trying prop him up something fierce. Jinbei, Blackbeard, and Yamato are certainly clashes to show to depict where Ace might lie in a tier table.

 

[BoyNextDoor]

I agree he MAY have gotten to YC1 if he was alive.


I say if Ace was alive after the TS, he would probably be the same level or YC2, but not YC1.

 

[Mopopolis]

This is just my quick ranking of current/ former Yonko crew members.

Yonko
Luffy > Kaido > Big Mom > Shanks = Blackbeard

Yonko Commanders
Katakuri > Zoro > King > Sanji = Marco > Queen > Jozu > Smoothie > Jack > Cracker

(Not including Beckman, other Whitebeard commanders and Blackbeard pirates since we have not clearly seen them fight)

Also I would put Doflamingo around Marco / Queen's power level if he were a Commander.

 

[Pirate Queen]

This is just my quick ranking of current/ former Yonko crew members.

Yonko
Luffy > Kaido > Big Mom > Shanks = Blackbeard

Yonko Commanders
Katakuri > Zoro > King > Sanji = Marco > Queen > Jozu > Smoothie > Jack > Cracker

(Not including Beckman, other Whitebeard commanders and Blackbeard pirates since we have not clearly seen them fight)

Also I would put Doflamingo around Marco / Queen's power level if he were a Commander.

Somebody come get this man. He is a gift and must be protected at all costs.

You dropped this---->

 

[I Am Atomic]

Somebody come get this man. He is a gift and must be protected at all costs.

You dropped this---->

Did you only read Luffy > All other Yonko? No wonder you are impressed

 

[Mopopolis]

Did you only read Luffy > All other Yonko? No wonder you are impressed

Just for clarification this is just my feelings from what we have seen so far in the series, like you know if/when Luffy fights Shanks and or Blackbeard they will just as tough or even tougher than Kaido.

It's just hard to place someone like Shanks who so far has;
Stared down a fish
Offscreen clashed with Whitebeard
Blocked a single punch from Akainu

When you compare that to the sheer powerhouse Kaido and Big Mom have been I'm going to rank him lower right now, and you know Luffy is going to beat Kaido by the end of this arc.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Did you only read Luffy > All other Yonko? No wonder you are impressed

 

[grey matter]

Oh god, we have an Ace Extremist over here.
I totally 100% disagree. The story isnt about Ace but rather Luffy. While if Ace was alive he would be stronger, not to that degree you claim. Admiral level? Cmon.
Only Luffy would have a huge power increase potential in such short time.
I say if Ace was alive after the TS, he would probably be the same level or YC2, but not YC1. Although he showed great potential, I dont see him getting stronger than the YC1s, at least that quickly in 2 years.

Why dont people understand Ace was not that strong? Why do they like to overhype/overrate him?

Ace extremist? Dude, I don't even like Ace lol, and think he's a retard. Who screwed up once (despite WB's warnings) and lead to the greatest war probably since God Valley, lived to regret it, and then screwed up AGAIN in a similar way without learning a damn thing, rendering all the sacrifices by WB and his crew pointless

I just give him the credit he deserves for his power and potential.

He stalemated Jinbe when he was 17-18.
Jinbe has all the feats he need to be a YC3 tier (mid-high diffing the strongest or 2nd strongest Tobiroppo, feats against BM).
Ace was YC3 tier when he was pre timeskip Luffy's age

A consistent theme with Ace was, similar to Luffy, he had unreal growth rate.
This was precisely the reason the government took note of the dude, and traced his birth back to Roger. Can you imagine how hard it would've been to trace his birth, considering what his mother did?
The government still did it, because of his insane growth rate.

Both WB and Shanks saw the insane potential he had, and thought he would grow to become PK one day.

Are you telling me that this dude would go from stalemating Jinbe when he was 17, to only YC3 tier when he was 20? Talk about low balling to the extreme man.

Why would make me an Ace extremist to think that he would've become admiral tier if he was alive for 2 more years? He certainly has the hype and potential to be so.

My position that he was YC1 tier when he died, comes from the novel.
I understand that you don't consider the novel, and can get why. It's ok, we can agree to disagree here.

But the manga feats he has certainly pushes him to at least YC2 tier for sure. You don't need to consider the novel or anything for that.
He stalemated Jinbe when he was just a rookie, and stalemated Yamato when he was 18. Sure, Yamato could've grown strong since then, but consider that she was 24 then. Growth rate here again, is in Ace's favour.

 

[Rmstorm]

Ace extremist? Dude, I don't even like Ace lol, and think he's a retard. Who screwed up once (despite WB's warnings) and lead to the greatest war probably since God Valley, lived to regret it, and then screwed up AGAIN in a similar way without learning a damn thing, rendering all the sacrifices by WB and his crew pointless

I just give him the credit he deserves for his power and potential.

He stalemated Jinbe when he was 17-18.
Jinbe has all the feats he need to be a YC3 tier (mid-high diffing the strongest or 2nd strongest Tobiroppo, feats against BM).
Ace was YC3 tier when he was pre timeskip Luffy's age

A consistent theme with Ace was, similar to Luffy, he had unreal growth rate.
This was precisely the reason the government took note of the dude, and traced his birth back to Roger. Can you imagine how hard it would've been to trace his birth, considering what his mother did?
The government still did it, because of his insane growth rate.

Both WB and Roger saw the insane potential he had, and thought he would grow to become PK one day.

Are you telling me that this dude would go from stalemating Jinbe when he was 17, to only YC3 tier when he was 20? Talk about low balling to the extreme man.

Why would make me an Ace extremist to think that he would've become admiral tier if he was alive for 2 more years? He certainly has the hype and potential to be so.

My position that he is YC1 tier comes from the novel.
I understand that you don't consider the novel, and can get why. It's ok, we can agree to disagree here.

But the manga feats he has certainly pushes him to at least YC2 tier for sure. You don't need to consider the novel or anything for that.
He stalemated Jinbe when he was just a rookie, and stalemated Yamato when he was 18. Sure, Yamato could've grown strong since then, but consider that she was 24 then. Growth rate here again, is in Ace's favour.

Ace was YC3 at age 19 not, 17. He took a whole year to reach Saboady which means he was age 18 by the time he reached the New World. This was revealed in the Ace novel.

Then he travelled some more and stalemated Jinbe.

He always had less potential than Luffy as his growth rate wad not like Luffy and his fighting skill despite having a logia was low.