Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
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I think the "cheat" was a plot point that Oda wanted to use. It served the following purposes:
- give Kaido PTSD of now being allowed to fight an enemy all out. Which played out again versus Luffy
- Purposefully create room for multiple interpretations, and preserve the legend of Oden. If Kaido straight up won against Oden, then the legend and the hope that citizens of Wano held onto, would've had less meaning and impact
IMO: Oden would've been a bit stronger than base Kaido, and a bit weaker than hybrid Kaido.
Ehh, Oden would've been more of a match for Rayleigh than Roger.
Roger's poker face suggest that it's just him wanting to face Oden who was strong, so he was just making poor excuses that Rayleigh immediately called out.
It thematically makes sense. The "partner" of Roger, vs the "brother" of Whitebeard. These two have similar narrative/portrayal.
And this would kinda make sense feat wise as well. A retired and drunkard old Rayleigh, was almost a match for Kizaru (they were equal in combat, but Rayleigh was lacking in stamina).
It makes sense that peak Rayleigh would be as strong or slightly stronger than Oden, who was almost a match for Kaido.
Yeah, I agree with you, I think that prime Rayleigh >= peak Oden.
But, I think prime Rayleigh would've high diff'd Oden there, not mid diff.
Yes, Oden wasn't at his peak, but he was very close to his peak then.
Remember that he was already with WB for more than five years, and had grown a lot stronger during this period relative to where he was when he met WB. He basically only grew for one more year in Roger's ship, and that's his peak. Maybe he grew slightly for the 5-6 years in Wano again, but that would be minimal considering he had nobody worthy as a training/sparring partner
I think that fight just wasn't done justice since Oda didn't showcase much from either of them, mainly to not spoil Kaido's attacks, hybrid form etc. However, since it was a high diff fight for Kaido back then I feel if we got a rematch today we'd get a much more epic fight. I do think Kaido may win again but I was wondering if Oden wasn't at his peak yet. Haki and technique get better with time and both Kaido and Oden were young (by OP standards) so they may have had enough room to grow that would change the outcome. Like who has the higher potential, Kaido or Oden?
In terms of Oden's peak, I think we'll get a better idea of where he, theoretically, could've been once we see what sort of multiplier Blackened Swords give to swordspersons in the future. But, overall, I'd say Kaido had the highest potential of the two.
Kaido was 39 when he confronted oden and won against him. That's an age at which characters have not exactly peaked yet. Kaido is an oni so his lifespan and how he ages is unclear but if its comparable to humans then he had at least just over a decade to reach his peak, maybe somewhat longer, and then perhaps just over a decade to stay at said peak. Ultimately I think it's a fair assumption that current kaido was at his absolute strongest possible and he grew stronger since then. Even oden told kaido to grow stronger. I wish the series had been more explicit on whether oden and kaido knew cladding during their confrontation.
See, that was basically my train of thought. Peak ages in One Piece aren't exactly set in stone for every character and 20 years is a hella long time to plataeu. Whitebeard was in his 40s when he ran into Oden and I'm not sure if he was close to his prime yet at that point. To me, it'd be fine if Kaido was in his early 40s and still a bit far from his prime power. But at the same time, I can also see why folks would assume he was close to his prime, so I don't know.
See, that was basically my train of thought. Peak ages in One Piece aren't exactly set in stone for every character and 20 years is a hella long time to plataeu. Whitebeard was in his 40s when he ran into Oden and I'm not sure if he was close to his prime yet at that point. To me, it'd be fine if Kaido was in his early 40s and still a bit far from his prime power. But at the same time, I can also see why folks would assume he was close to his prime, so I don't know.
WB was the oldest of the old yonko generation... I don't think he would necessarily peak t 40 though. But it is impossible to tell where exactly he ranked. Or if he realized his potential early... I don't think he would take 20 years to plateau though. More like, he would reach his peak, stay there for a while and then age and become weaker. However people in OP aren't like athletes in the real world who peak in their late 20s... People in OP have a substantially longer period of time over which they can grow stronger, possibly up to their 50s and stay there as high as their 60s.
In terms of Oden's peak, I think we'll get a better idea of where he, theoretically, could've been once we see what sort of multiplier Blackened Swords give to swordspersons in the future. But, overall, I'd say Kaido had the highest potential of the two.
It's hard for me to gauge since they're both freaks of nature. Kaido has a biological edge in that he's an Oni but Oden also had some pretty OP swords so even now in my head they are pretty 50/50 in a fight.
From my opinion, Oden only got close enough to defeating Kaido so he doesn't look bad. Oda wanted the readers to feel bad for Oden and hate Kaido (that did not happen).
I am also of the agreement that Kaido did get stronger, so it is hard to gauge their peak strength.
WB was the oldest of the old yonko generation... I don't think he would necessarily peak t 40 though. But it is impossible to tell where exactly he ranked. Or if he realized his potential early... I don't think he would take 20 years to plateau though. More like, he would reach his peak, stay there for a while and then age and become weaker. However people in OP aren't like athletes in the real world who peak in their late 20s... People in OP have a substantially longer period of time over which they can grow stronger, possibly up to their 50s and stay there as high as their 60s.
My own headcanon regarding this is that physically the characters indeed do peak at late 20s, like in real world.
But they maintain this physical peak, while improving their haki (mental) and devil fruit. So they keep growing stronger due to that, until those plataeu as well.
By your early-mid 40s, the physical start slowly deteriorating. So I'd assume generally speaking, that's your peak age in OP. 40-50 years old, after that all you can do is try your best to maintain that power level.
Of course there are many variants too. You could be a mutant freak like BM and not be affected by aging to an extend, you could get sick like Roger, you could get your DF in later stages and grow stronger because of that, learning advanced Haki later in life etc.
But generally speaking I think I'm right here.
Kaido indeed does look like he's in his 50s. So I'd guess that Oni species age similar to humans too.
I think Kaido peaked at maybe 45 and maintained the same power level till now.
My own headcanon regarding this is that physically the characters indeed do peak at late 20s, like in real world.
But they maintain this physical peak, while improving their haki (mental) and devil fruit. So they keep growing stronger due to that, until those plataeu as well.
By your early-mid 40s, the physical start slowly deteriorating. So I'd assume generally speaking, that's your peak age in OP. 40-50 years old, after that all you can do is try your best to maintain that power level.
Of course there are many variants too. You could be a mutant freak like BM and not be affected by aging to an extend, you could get sick like Roger, you could get your DF in later stages and grow stronger because of that, learning advanced Haki later in life etc.
But generally speaking I think I'm right here.
Kaido indeed does look like he's in his 50s. So I'd guess that Oni species age similar to humans too.
I think Kaido peaked at maybe 45 and maintained the same power level till now.
My objection to that would be that characters are shown rather consistently growing stronger well into their 50s. Smoker is a prime example of that, he only developed haki in basically his late 30s. You also have the CP9 folk. Lucci was 28 at ennies lobby... and he learned haki recently. same for the rest of cp9. It's hard to say how strong chinjao was in his prime but iirc garp specifically trained to defeat him 30 years ago. At that point garp would have been nearing his 40s as well.
My objection to that would be that characters are shown rather consistently growing stronger well into their 50s. Smoker is a prime example of that, he only developed haki in basically his late 30s. You also have the CP9 folk. Lucci was 28 at ennies lobby... and he learned haki recently. same for the rest of cp9. It's hard to say how strong chinjao was in his prime but iirc garp specifically trained to defeat him 30 years ago. At that point garp would have been nearing his 40s as well.
Of course there are many variants too. You could be a mutant freak like BM and not be affected by aging to an extend, you could get sick like Roger, you could get your DF in later stages and grow stronger because of that, learning advanced Haki later in life etc.
But generally speaking I think I'm right here.
Exceptions are when you learn haki or get DF in later stages of your life. I acknowledged that these are factors that could improve well past your physical prime as well.
I consider three main factors here:
- physical stats
- haki
- devil fruit
The reason characters "peak" is because their physical stats peak and then start deteriorating ass they age. Of course if you can slow down that, and get significant improvements in other factors (like DF or haki), you'll still get stronger in later stages in your life.
Blackbeard (who is close to 40) would be a perfect example. He got two powerful devil fruits, and mastering them has jumped him up by tiers, Getting close to his dreams might have have awakened conqueror's haki as well, which is another boost.
What I meant was for characters who already had their DF and learned haki well when they were young. Say a character learned haki and got DF on or before they were 20 years old. I'd expect them to peak at their early-mid 40s
Also, Garp didn't really train (in the sense he got stronger or something) to beat him, it was more like he warmed up many times and honed up his skills to beat him at his own game (head vs fist).
My objection to that would be that characters are shown rather consistently growing stronger well into their 50s. Smoker is a prime example of that, he only developed haki in basically his late 30s. You also have the CP9 folk. Lucci was 28 at ennies lobby... and he learned haki recently. same for the rest of cp9. It's hard to say how strong chinjao was in his prime but iirc garp specifically trained to defeat him 30 years ago. At that point garp would have been nearing his 40s as well.
I remember when folks were strongly arguing that Kaido didn't get stronger than when he fought Oden just to downplay Luffy and the rest.
Even when the glaring facts were thrown in our faces. Some people just prefer headcannon over Manga facts. Don't know why.
I remember when folks were strongly arguing that Kaido didn't get stronger than when he fought Oden just to downplay Luffy and the rest.
Even when the glaring facts were thrown in our faces. Some people just prefer headcannon over Manga facts. Don't know why.
What a ridiculous take. What's with this massive conspiracy theory lmao?
First of all, how would anything change even if Kaido's level remained the same? It would change the perception of power level of literally nobody except Oden. If Kaido grew stronger, then current Kaido is a cut above Oden, else current Kaido is relative to Oden.
Luffy would still be relative to current Kaido, nothing changes for Luffy.
What is the glaring fact thrown at our face, that Kaido got stronger? Did Kaido claim as such? Did anybody in the manga make that claim?
If anything, manga supports the idea that characters peak at some age, and then grow weaker. As evidenced by Whitebeard, Garp, Sengoku, Rayleigh etc
And some characters apparently don't. Kaidou's a different race entirely and he seems nowhere near going in a downward trajectory after peaking, and Big Mom is an inhuman freak of nature that has shown no signs of not-peaking either.
And some characters apparently don't. Kaidou's a different race entirely and he seems nowhere near going in a downward trajectory after peaking, and Big Mom is an inhuman freak of nature that has shown no signs of not-peaking either.
Kaido does look his age, give or take a few years. So I assume onis age similar to how humans age. I'm not saying Kaido got any weaker though, I'm just saying he probably peaked within a few years after fighting Oden, and then maintained that level. In maybe 10-15 years or so (if he survived this arc), I'd expect Kaido's power level to start deteriorating.
I acknowledged BM as an exception. It seems to me that she peaked, but doesn't look like she's getting weaker at least (i.e seems like she's maintaining her level)
No one's arguing this. I think we all agree as it's been established old age - generally from 60 upwards, for humans - weakens all characters (the degree is different for each) with Big Mom as an exception.
But some characters may peak at 50.
I'd like to know your take at what age do you think they peak? @kkck is quite spot on I feel.
IMO, the age at which peak strength is reached differs for each character and there's no one size fits all.
For example, the likes of Roger, Luffy, Ace, Sabo, Zoro, Sanji, Kid, Hancock, Coby would peak at their 20s.
Law, Smoker, Blackbeard, Whitebeard, Garp, Oden, Rayleigh, Shanks, Mihawk at their 30s
No one's arguing this. I think we all agree as it's been established old age - generally from 60 upwards, for humans - weakens all characters (the degree is different for each) with Big Mom as an exception.
But some characters may peak at 50.
I'd like to know your take at what age do you think they peak? @kkck is quite spot on I feel.
IMO, the age at which peak strength is reached differs for each character and there's no one size fits all.
For example, the likes of Roger, Luffy, Ace, Sabo, Zoro, Sanji, Kid, Hancock, Coby would peak at their 20s.
Law, Smoker, Blackbeard, Whitebeard, Garp, Oden, Rayleigh, Shanks, Mihawk at their 30s
I don't think luffy will peak at this 20s. Welp, he may but it'd probably be because he has punished his body to such an ungodly degree that him living past 30 would require a miracle. Transforming to power up is an ability with relative rarity in OP. And the ones who have it enjoy substantial physical boosts. To the best of my knowledge only zoans have this capability along with perhaps moria via absorbing souls.
So... we have seen how much of an improvement luffy's gears are. In paradise gear 2-3 allowed luffy to overcome the difference between himself and hybrid lucci. In the new world he mastered the forms to the extent that he can seamlessly use them without any of the drawbacks of part 1. Then he learned gear 4 which has allowed him to overcome gaps in a number of arcs.
But.... hypothetically, what if luffy didn't have this capacity to transform? Is luffy only yonko level material with his transformations? Base luffy (without using gear 2, 3 an 4) is still a decent bit below shanks or big mom, who don't enjoy transformations. If luffy has yonko level potential regardless of his devil fruit... what if his base eventually becomes capable of taking on kaido and he then transforms? I suppose there is a case to be made that luffy will reach his potential early but if his potential is the same as shanks then assuming he makes it to 40 then he would really be a monster among monsters.
Transforming to power up is an ability with relative rarity in OP. And the ones who have it enjoy substantial physical boosts. To the best of my knowledge only zoans have this capability
If luffy has yonko level potential regardless of his devil fruit... what if his base eventually becomes capable of taking on kaido and he then transforms?
It's a Shounen after all. Virtually all the MCs hit their peaks at an early age usually at about the end stage of the Manga. Luffy won't be any different.
The way I see it, so long as he's going to eventually become the Pirate King which arguably requires the strongest individual to pass that hurdle, he'll attain peak strength somewhere around that period which is relatively soon in Manga time. In fact, it'll be in his early 20s.
The Luffy we see in Sharly's vision to me is Luffy at his strongest. Dead serious, Badass vibes and an overwhelming presence!
Transforming to power up is an ability with relative rarity in OP. And the ones who have it enjoy substantial physical boosts. To the best of my knowledge only zoans have this capability along with perhaps moria via absorbing souls.
No one's arguing this. I think we all agree as it's been established old age - generally from 60 upwards, for humans - weakens all characters (the degree is different for each) with Big Mom as an exception.
So, your point was just about Kaido getting stronger after facing Oden?
Ok, it's debatable really. Nothing in the manga really proves that he got stronger, so we arguing whether he did grow stronger or not is futile IMO, though personally I think he grew slightly stronger.
I'd say Kaido would've extreme diff'd Oden 20 years ago, and high diff's him currently.
But some characters may peak at 50.
I'd like to know your take at what age do you think they peak? @kkck is quite spot on I feel.
IMO, the age at which peak strength is reached differs for each character and there's no one size fits all.
For example, the likes of Roger, Luffy, Ace, Sabo, Zoro, Sanji, Kid, Hancock, Coby would peak at their 20s.
Law, Smoker, Blackbeard, Whitebeard, Garp, Oden, Rayleigh, Shanks, Mihawk at their 30s
I'd generally think characters peak somewhere between age 40-50.
I consider three factors mainly here:
- physical stats
- haki
- Devil fruit
Physical stats IMO peak the earliest, maybe in late 20s if we are going by real life as well as some hints in OP itself (Momo is kinda being implied that he is in his physical peak or close, and he's 28).
But characters in one piece can still keep getting stronger, since haki and devil fruit are variables.
These other factors keep improving, until their improvements are offset or even destroyed by physical stats deterioration due to old age
I think you're right that Luffy might peak earlier.
Because, he is already close to his devil fruit mastery, his DF awakened. Now all that is left for him is to master the awakening, and he would plateau in devil fruit.
Haki is still a variable, but once you reach a certain level, you need to fight other strong characters to grow up the haki. This was what happened with Oden, nobody could challenge him in Wano until he met Whitebeard, so he stagnated.
Physically, Luffy will continue to improve until he reach late 20s.
So, I'd guess Luffy would peak at about 30 years. While still having potential to improve, under the right circumstance. His improvement after 30 will be haki related.
I think Roger, Garp and Whitebeard actually peaked in their 40s.
Because they were always relative to each other, so whenever they fought, their haki might have improved. This kept repeating, until their physical stats started deteriorating due to age (for Roger, it would be in his 50s due to cancer. For Whitebeard and Garp, it probably started in their 60s).
Same could be said for Kaido, BM, Mihawk and Shanks too. I think Kaido and BM peaked at their 40s.
Shanks and Mihawk are close to peaking.
Blackbeard would be an exception.
He got massive powerups due to getting two DFs in his late 30s/40s. And this renewed his will, so it might have resulted in a haki bloom as well (maybe BB getting conqueror's haki?)
Brook is also an exception. Because he is an immortal, and he was around 30 years old when he died. Brook doesn't have to worry about getting weaker due to physical stats deteriorating at all, that isn't a concern for him.
Brook's powerup is also almost always devil fruit related. This was because he basically didn't know how to use his DF at all, until the past 2 years or so.
But.... hypothetically, what if luffy didn't have this capacity to transform? Is luffy only yonko level material with his transformations? Base luffy (without using gear 2, 3 an 4) is still a decent bit below shanks or big mom, who don't enjoy transformations. If luffy has yonko level potential regardless of his devil fruit... what if his base eventually becomes capable of taking on kaido and he then transforms? I suppose there is a case to be made that luffy will reach his potential early but if his potential is the same as shanks then assuming he makes it to 40 then he would really be a monster among monsters.
I think without this capacity to transform, Luffy would still have yonko tier haki.
But, physically he would be lacking.
But,it won't be like Luffy would get stomped. Oda treats the stats improvement from the gears kinda vaguely. It is super high when Oda wants it to be, high but not on insane levels if Oda wants it to be like that.
Base Luffy was holding his own against Kaido, even though Kaido proved he could physically overwhelm G4 and even G5 Luffy, and apparently these gears are insane boost on stats.
So, I suppose current Luffy will get mid diff'd in base, high diff'd in G4 and extreme diff'd in G5. By a full power Kaido
Sorry to just jump in randomly, but do you guys think current Luffy beats current Rayleigh? Or current Garp or current Sengoku?
Power levels took an unpredictable turn tbh.
Personally, I think if it had been a 1v1 fight from the beginning between Kaido or BM against any of the 3, Kaido or BM would have won(against any of the 3)
So now we're left to guesstimate. Ehh I suppose that's part of the fun. lol
