One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

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• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Fox666]

IMHO I don't see how Zoro can be compared to Law and Kid. There's an abyss between them.


What is Zoro's greatest accomplishment? He injured Kaido once? Law and Kid heavy damaged Big Mom dozens of time.

Even Law and Kid durability seems to be off the chart. Law and Kid are on a level which they can ignore direct hits from Kaido or Big Mom... while Zoro had all of his bones broken immediately.


Zoro level is that of a 1st Commander. Zoro was defeated by the Emperors very quickly, just like Luffy at the beggining of Wano. He had a very hard fight against King.

HEAVY emphasis on the phrase "just barely above". I also judge Zoro a bit higher than where he actually is because of how green he is with CoC and ACoC. It won't take him long to master that and mastery of that definitely puts him a step above (again, not by much, but still).

What difference does ACoC make? Zoro could barely defeat King, he isn't much stronger than that, ACoC or not.

 

[Core D. Roy]

IMHO I don't see how Zoro can be compared to Law and Kid. There's an abyss between them.


What is Zoro's greatest accomplishment? He injured Kaido once? Law and Kid heavy damaged Big Mom dozens of time.

Even Law and Kid durability seems to be off the chart. Law and Kid are on a level which they can ignore direct hits from Kaido or Big Mom... while Zoro had all of his bones broken immediately.


Zoro level is that of a 1st Commander. Zoro was defeated by the Emperors very quickly, just like Luffy at the beggining of Wano. He had a very hard fight against King.

What difference does ACoC make? Zoro could barely defeat King, he isn't much stronger than that, ACoC or not.

"Law and Kidd", it was their teamwork that let them have any chance against Big Mom at all, much less with the buckets of plot contrivances that needed to happen for neither of them to be dead. Zoro's durability has ALWAYS been absolutely insane, if you recall, Zoro broke all his bones blocking a combined attack from both Big Mom and Kaidou, easily the strongest attack we've ever seen in the series at this point.

Zoro, Kidd, and Law are all squarely in YC1+ imo, but Zoro edges out. What difference does ACoC make? You can't be serious. And you're underselling King and his durability, his race basically can't be harmed unless they go into a different mode.

Please don't make me defend Zoro, I hate this lol

 

[Rein Avara]

There's an argument to be made with Law, but I don't think Kid should be put above Zoro at all.

 

[kkck]

No

Luffy
Yamato
Law
Kid
5 Emperors
Rocks
Rayleigh
Oden
Shiki
Mihawk
Weevil
5 Admirals
Garp
Sengoku
Kong
Dragon

And these are just characters who are 100% guarantee to be stronger than Zoro. I would argue that Marco is stronger, since he overpowered both King and Queen for a while, but that's just my opinion. Otherwise the list would be much longer.

I am somewhat iffy of how zoro would compare to yamato, kid and law as we last saw them. In terms of sheer power zoro's output is perfectly comparable to yonko and by extension higher than any of those 3 (though it's fair to note that law's attacks are more than about raw power). Maybe I have to reread the chapters but iirc yamato held her own against kaido but her attacks never seemed quite as threatening as what zoro pulled against kaido or king. I suppose zoro could still suffer from a relatively small haki pool to actually sustain his yonko level fighting. Marco is probably a bad matchup for current zoro. As defeating marco is basically requires you to drop his stamina to a point where he can't regenerate and zoro's probably has stamina issues right now.

 

[Pirate Queen]

There's an argument to be made with Law, but I don't think Kid should be put above Zoro at all.

Kidd is a better match up for Zoro than Law. Better advantage with the mangetism.

If Big Mom can't break his magnet powers, Zoro sure the hell isnt.

 

[XXGenesis]

Golden Age Era- Top 10

Roger
WB
Xebec
Garp
Sengoku
Shiki
Big Mom
Rayleigh
Kaido
Oden



Great Pirate Era/ WB- Top 10

WB
Kaido
Akainu
Shanks
Kuzan
Big Mom
Kizaru
Garp
Black Beard
Sengoku
Rayleigh



Current Era’s Top 10

Kaido
Shanks
Akainu
Black Beard
Akoji
Big Mom
Fujitora
Greenbull
Kizaru
Luffy

**I realize Dragon should be top 15/10…He’s featless still so…Yea
**Mihawk is a slight conundrum. Who knows where he ranks in comparison to the others

 

[Core D. Roy]

There's an argument to be made with Law, but I don't think Kid should be put above Zoro at all.

See I instinctively feel this, but then I remember there may be some level of bias for Law since we've seen him in action dozens of times for almost half (!) the series, and have only seen Kidd fight a handful of times. I blame it on the fact that Law's abilities are invisible and very easy to draw, and Kidd's abilities probably severely drag down production time.

Anyways both have abilities that are absolutely busted against anyone that's not a hard counter or flat out overpowering. It doesn't help that Kidd underperformed given the hype he was given. He was SAID to have CoC, but never used it, while almost simultaneously, Zoro figures out that he has CoC about two minutes before getting a hold of teaching himself ACoC.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 4, 2022, Original Post Date: Jul 4, 2022 ---

Lol just now remembered to move Buggy to his rightful position out of the Ex-Shichibukai column officially into the Emperors column.

 

[grey matter]

I'm not sure if it's ever been proven one way or another, but I think Kizaru could take Akainu. Borsalino just chills. Almost the way Garp turned down promotions. Kind of but not really.

I'm guessing current Garp and current Sengoku could individually both defeat current Rayleigh. Just as they could when they were younger.

I don't think I see Luffy winning against any of them in a true 1v1 fight.

Maybe I'm downplaying G5 Luffy but just like his other gears it's going to take time to control.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 1, 2022, Original Post Date: Jul 1, 2022 ---

Damn just remembered Dragon. We need some more Dragon in the series tbh.

Maybe you are right.
It's just that, as things stand currently, Akainu has a higher portrayal compared to Kizaru. He had the central chair in the marineford, was the one who majorly took on WB, is currently fleet admiral etc.
We will see when the admirals go all out.

Yeah, agree with that.
Current Garp mid-high diffs current Rayleigh, current Sengoku extreme diffs current Rayleigh. I'd assume that is the diff they needed in their peak too.

Old Garp, yeah I think Luffy loses for sure.
Old Sengoku, Luffy most likely wins.
Rayleigh, Luffy definitely wins.
I think current Luffy is on the same level as peak Rayleigh.

Prime/Peak Performance Age in the One Piece world IMO ranges from the ages of 30-50.

*Kaido is an exception; He’s 59 & he’s a Oni, his physiology is different from humans. His decline happens much later.
*Our MC’s are mostly in there early 20’s.

Ages 50-70 I believe is where they start to decline. In both strength & stamina. I believe even Big Mom has suffered a decline in power from her earlier days; Her lack of ACoC attacks is weird compared to Kaido’s constant spam;

Garp & Sengoku During Marineford War imo were not stronger than any of the Yonko. But would give them

Current Luffy imo would defeat Garp/Sengoku with Mid diff.

Marineford WB I believe 1 vs 1 Extreme Diffs a Win with any Top tier.

Somewhat disagree with some of this.

1. If prime Garp was on the same level as prime Whitebeard, then old Garp is on the same level as old Whitebeard on meds.
Because, old WB is nerfed by both natural ageing AND sickness. Old Garp is nerfed only by natural ageing, and is pretty much healthy otherwise. Old Garp should be as strong as old WB without sickness, i.e old WB in meds.
Old WB in meds was considered pretty much unanimously, by pirates, marines and citizens alike as the strongest pirate alive at the time.
That puts Garp above all of the current Yonkos, as well as current Luffy.
As for Sengoku, maybe. We don't know anything about him other than that he is a top tier. I think current Luffy wins against Sengoku too, but a high-extreme diff than a mid-high diff.

2. Kaido indeed does look almost his age (he looks like someone in his 50s), so it's not like Oni species age significantly different from humans.
I agree that he hasn't started falling off like humans would, at 59/60 years old. But IMO he reached his peak many years ago, and is just maintaining his peak.

3. Same as Kaido for BM too.
She is a mutant freak, so we can't use same logic as regular humans for BM. I think she peaked many years ago (say, when he was at 50). But, she has maintained her peak since then, and hasn't got weaker.
Regarding your point of BM not using too much conqueror's haki, I think this is thematically how Oda had set up BM to begin with. Oda wanted Luffy vs Kaido to be more haki oriented, and Law/Kid vs BM to be more DF oriented.
If we are talking about advanced conqueror's haki, Big Mom is ALWAYS using it......just defensively. It is "always active"

 

[The Prince of Darkness]

If prime Garp was on the same level as prime Whitebeard, then old Garp is on the same level as old Whitebeard on meds

Roger=Garp=Whitebeard
Those 3 were the pinnacle of strength during their era.

That puts Garp above all of the current Yonkos, as well as current Luffy.

Oh but he is, my friend... he is!

I don't understand why is it so hard for some of you do believe that Garp is a monster among the monsters in OP.
For him Admirals are just young amateurs and Yonkos annoying.

 

[grey matter]

Roger=Garp=Whitebeard
Those 3 were the pinnacle of strength during their era.



Oh but he is, my friend... he is!

I don't understand why is it so hard for some of you do believe that Garp is a monster among the monsters in OP.
For him Admirals are just young amateurs and Yonkos annoying.

Ok......I agree lol, why did you reply to me with that?

I don't think old Garp would make a joke out of any Yonko or admiral, but he should be stronger than all of them except old Whitebeard (in meds)

IMHO I don't see how Zoro can be compared to Law and Kid. There's an abyss between them.


What is Zoro's greatest accomplishment? He injured Kaido once? Law and Kid heavy damaged Big Mom dozens of time.

Even Law and Kid durability seems to be off the chart. Law and Kid are on a level which they can ignore direct hits from Kaido or Big Mom... while Zoro had all of his bones broken immediately.


Zoro level is that of a 1st Commander. Zoro was defeated by the Emperors very quickly, just like Luffy at the beggining of Wano. He had a very hard fight against King.

What difference does ACoC make? Zoro could barely defeat King, he isn't much stronger than that, ACoC or not.

He injured Kaido using just advanced armament, multiple times in the fight really.
And the final attack which he used against Kaido, gave him a scar second to only Oden's. And this was when Zoro didn't even know he was a conqueror. Current Zoro can consciously use advanced conqueror's haki clad attacks for a few minutes.

Why are we comparing rooftop Zoro to current Law/Kid?
Current Zoro should be compared to them. Just as Law/Kid got stronger over the arc, so did Zoro.

Zoro had his bones broken by a combo attack, which Law and Kid alike said would be the end of all of them if they didn't manage to dodge. Zoro bought them the few seconds needed to get Law to dodge the attack.
He got his bones broken by arguably the strongest attack we have ever seen in the series, quite different from tanking attacks from a singular Yonko. Not sure why you think this is a horrible durability feat lol.
And it's not like Zoro was donezo after this attack. He still went on offensive against Prometheus and managed to scar Kaido after this.

How are you comparing current Zoro to beginning of Wano Luffy lol?
Zoro, even before awakening advanced conqueror's haki, was dealing damage to Kaido. While beginning of Wano Luffy did zero damage to Kaido.
Zoro, with his bones broken and pretty much out of stamina, got hit by a thunder bagua from Hybrid Kaido....and remained conscious. While beginning of Wano G4 Luffy got one shot by a thunder bagua from base Kaido.

Yeah, he had a hard fight against King. But King is a different type of YC1 from Katakuri. Matchups matter. King is pure stats type combatant, while Katakuri's shtick is avoid getting hit using mochi body + future sight.
King was no selling attacks which injured Kaido and made him scream in pain, made him dodge etc.
You could put beginning of Wano G4 Luffy against King.........and the dude would manage to deal ZERO damage against King. King's defence mode has combat speed comparable to current Zoro, attack power comparable to raid suit Zoro, and defence which renders anything beginning of Wano Luffy is capable of to be useless.

What difference does advanced conqueror's haki make?
Advanced conqueror's haki is the difference between dealing ZERO damage to King's defence mode, versus dealing damage to King's defense mode and making him block the attacks cause he knows they will hurt him.

And having said all of these, I don't think Zoro is stronger than Kid or Law. I put them both over Zoro, overall.
I just think they all belong in the same tier: YC1+
I also think that, due to matchups, Kid will mid diff current Zoro, while Law vs Zoro is a bit more tricky. Kid's magnetism would pretty much disrupt Zoro's entire combat style, considering he doesn't even need his awakening (assign) to screw with Zoro's swords.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I think we're sleeping on current Luffy a bit. His attack power is higher than Kaido now since he outpowered Kaido's strongest move. He also does have very high durability (not as high as Kaido) and now has a fully awakened fruit and all advanced forms of haki. At this point Luffy is in same ballpark of fighter as Kaido to me. In a rematch I don't see Luffy losing a 1v1 solo fight with Kaido anymore, Luffy will come out of it high diff.

 

[grey matter]

I think we're sleeping on current Luffy a bit. His attack power is higher than Kaido now since he outpowered Kaido's strongest move. He also does have very high durability (not as high as Kaido) and now has a fully awakened fruit and all advanced forms of haki. At this point Luffy is in same ballpark of fighter as Kaido to me. In a rematch I don't see Luffy losing a 1v1 solo fight with Kaido anymore, Luffy will come out of it high diff.

Ehh, can't say for sure.

I would argue that Kaido was more exhausted than Luffy, which made the difference. Also, the focus going to Kaido's eyes and his surprise, when Luffy answered his question leading to him reminiscing about Joy Boy, might have something to do with Kaido losing focus too.

I'd overall say Luffy is definitely close. He has attack power and combat speed which is about the same, while durability and stamina below Kaido's.
IMO, current Luffy is between Kaido and Big Mom. Would lose with extreme diff against Kaido, but win with extreme diff against BM.

There is no way he would take this with high diff, even if he wins.

 

[LaGOAT]

@Pirate Queen zoro feats was able the same if not better than kidds with yonkos fight. Kaido who was just tanking every1 attacks had a dodge an attack from zoro in which big mom even had to warn him

 

[Nie Li]

@Pirate Queen zoro feats was able the same if not better than kidds with yonkos fight. Kaido who was just tanking every1 attacks had a dodge an attack from zoro in which big mom even had to warning him

Indeed. If you put Zoro in Kid's place in BM's fight, Big Mom would have got a lot more than a couple broken bones, and not through cumulative damage.

 

[_goshi]

I don't understand why is it so hard for some of you do believe that Garp is a monster among the monsters in OP.
For him Admirals are just young amateurs and Yonkos annoying.

I also find it strange. But I can understand why. You have a character whose strength is equal to the fkin pirate king just casually walking around eating crackers while cracking jokes. The only time we ever got to see him get remotely serious (flashbacks excluded) was when he punched Marco, IIRC.

He feels kind of underutilized. Then again, if he'd gotten serious, not many pirates would be left alive right now haha.

 

[grey matter]

@Pirate Queen zoro feats was able the same if not better than kidds with yonkos fight. Kaido who was just tanking every1 attacks had a dodge an attack from zoro in which big mom even had to warn him

Indeed. If you put Zoro in Kid's place in BM's fight, Big Mom would have got a lot more than a couple broken bones, and not through cumulative damage.

I would say, things wouldn't change significantly if you replace Kid with Zoro.

Yes, Zoro has higher attack power and combat speed than Kid.
But Kid has higher stamina, versatility and physical strength.

Zoro wouldn't be able to brawl with BM the way Kid was able to, because he hasn't shown us the brute strength that Kid has. Which means, Law will have to take more risks to land his devastating internal damage attacks.

In the end, both would end up extreme diffing BM.
Just that the fight would end a lot quicker, but with Law and Zoro getting more injured in the same time frame.
Instead of damage output looking like say 2:1 in favour of Law, it would be more like 4:3 in favour of Law.

I also find it strange. But I can understand why. You have a character whose strength is equal to the fkin pirate king just casually walking around eating crackers while cracking jokes. The only time we ever got to see him get remotely serious (flashbacks excluded) was when he punched Marco, IIRC.

He feels kind of underutilized. Then again, if he'd gotten serious, not many pirates would be left alive right now haha.

IKR, prime Garp, Roger and prime WB are stated by the manga to be around same level.
But most people consider old WB at Marineford who was old and sick, above old Garp at Marineford who was just old but otherwise healthy. Quite bizarre indeed.

I think, apart from Garp never showing off his power on screen, a major reason IMO is the perception that people have towards marines in general.
Admirals are ALWAYS downplayed by majority of the fandom, the same just extends to Garp and Sengoku as well. The admiral downplay is so ridiculous that I've seen people arguing that Yonkos can 1v2 Admirals lol,

 

[The Prince of Darkness]

I also find it strange. But I can understand why. You have a character whose strength is equal to the fkin pirate king just casually walking around eating crackers while cracking jokes. The only time we ever got to see him get remotely serious (flashbacks excluded) was when he punched Marco, IIRC.

He feels kind of underutilized. Then again, if he'd gotten serious, not many pirates would be left alive right now haha.

That's because he's a retired MC who finished his story and now leaves the new gen do their things lol

We're talking about the man who instead of arresting the leader of one of the greatest Fleet and dangerous pirate of his era(Sai grandpa forgot his name) just punched him once then left after destroying the key of his tresor.
The guy probably never gave a fuck about pirates or Navy duties. Chasing and fighting Roger was probably just fun time for him

 

[roggie]

Zoro wouldn't be able to brawl with BM the way Kid was able to, because he hasn't shown us the brute strength that Kid has. Which means, Law will have to take more risks to land his devastating internal damage attacks.

Dude, if Zoro had some free hits over BM, Law wouldnt need to land anything.

 

[grey matter]

Dude, if Zoro had some free hits over BM, Law wouldnt need to land anything.

How would Zoro get some "free" hits on BM?

Someone has to create the room for that. Law was able to get some on BM, because Kid got him the opening. I think in this pair, it is probably Zoro creating openings for Law, more than Law creating openings for Zoro. Since Zoro is more of the standard combatant here.

The issue here is that Law and Zoro are both straight up offensive types.
They both have to create openings for each other and work well.........which is doable IMO and hence I think they can take it. But IMO it's not like this is a better pairing than Law and Kid.

Kid and Law were a good pair, I'd argue even a bit better. Kid could straight up brawl with BM and create openings for Law, they complement each other.

 

[XXGenesis]

Somewhat disagree with some of this.

1. If prime Garp was on the same level as prime Whitebeard, then old Garp is on the same level as old Whitebeard on meds.
Because, old WB is nerfed by both natural ageing AND sickness. Old Garp is nerfed only by natural ageing, and is pretty much healthy otherwise. Old Garp should be as strong as old WB without sickness, i.e old WB in meds.
Old WB in meds was considered pretty much unanimously, by pirates, marines and citizens alike as the strongest pirate alive at the time.
That puts Garp above all of the current Yonkos, as well as current Luffy.
As for Sengoku, maybe. We don't know anything about him other than that he is a top tier. I think current Luffy wins against Sengoku too, but a high-extreme diff than a mid-high diff.

2. Kaido indeed does look almost his age (he looks like someone in his 50s), so it's not like Oni species age significantly different from humans.
I agree that he hasn't started falling off like humans would, at 59/60 years old. But IMO he reached his peak many years ago, and is just maintaining his peak.

3. Same as Kaido for BM too.
She is a mutant freak, so we can't use same logic as regular humans for BM. I think she peaked many years ago (say, when he was at 50). But, she has maintained her peak since then, and hasn't got weaker.
Regarding your point of BM not using too much conqueror's haki, I think this is thematically how Oda had set up BM to begin with. Oda wanted Luffy vs Kaido to be more haki oriented, and Law/Kid vs BM to be more DF oriented.
If we are talking about advanced conqueror's haki, Big Mom is ALWAYS using it......just defensively. It is "always active"

1) I have Roger/WB Above Garp/Sengoku; All are ACoC users, But I got the Pirates being slightly stronger.

1A) How much weaker Someone gets because of old age or sickness is not really quantifiable. You cannot compare Garp’s aging to WB’s Aging & Bad Health. It can’t be narrowed down just a ball park guesstimate.

WB(72) Sickly . Imo Wins Extreme diff against any Top 10. Despite his horrible stamina & health which would provide openings; he still had the highest offensive power.

Garp(76)(78)- Also older than WB; Not Stronger than him either. Would give any Yonkou or top tier difficulty. But he’s is not superior to them anymore. They are younger and slightly stronger than He is now. Kaido mid-diffs Garp; Same as Shanks. Big Mom is a high diff.

Sengoku(77)(79)-Way older than WB; Not stronger than him, his drop off is way more. Kaido would Thunder Bagua him silly; Low Diff. Big Mom pulls a Mid diff with her healing & Homies giving her number advantage…Shanks like Kaido would Low Diff.

2) Absolute Peak seems to be between 40-50. Maintained through your 50’s. Declines in your 60’s. 70’s you are noticeably not on the same level anymore.

3) Big Mom I really like her character. Oda trolls her too much. Big Mom due to her size relies on her Cloud or Sun to travel; Her reaction time/Speed is average for her tier.

Still yet so very presumptuous of me, I believe she fought differently when she was younger & sleeker.

Real issue is Oda’s writing is getting weird/not so great. He’s spacing out the dots to much it’s hard to connect; to make sense of a few Portyals. Big Mom has only used ACoC as a Scream during WCI & a punch that took out P1;

ACoC is important to the in terms of fighting. It will be showcased much more later on in the manga. Amongst the top tiers……Why didn’t Big Mom use it much more?? When she knows how?? Is Big Mom’s whole fighting style spamming her DF?? When we’ve seen her get physical and is a powerhouse by her own right…I’m left to believe she’s definitely has suffered a drop in prowness from her more youthful days. Big Mom is 68…She definitely has suffered a drop off, especially more than likely in combat style.

We don’t know if Big Mom is always using ACOC. That is fan speculation/ assumption. Like I said Oda ain’t leaving these dots together to be connected. The manga needs to answer a lot of minute question for its audience, Oda has been leaving us hanging, bickering and arguing