One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

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As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

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[Lord Traffy Law]

As it stands tho king eventually defeats marco kat and any other first mate who doesn’t aCOC so far it seems that’s the requirement to hurt him
He’ll win every fight via battle of attrition

 

[grey matter]

As it stands tho king eventually defeats marco kat and any other first mate who doesn’t aCOC so far it seems that’s the requirement to hurt him
He’ll win every fight via battle of attrition

Been telling this for a while, but people don't listen lol. Either you need advanced conquerors haki or you need some hax DF (like Law who can just bypass the defences)

But, seems like Marco can somehow bypass that, considering we saw him damage King. Maybe that's the Phoenix flames at work, or maybe it's Oda being inconsistent. IDK

 

[LaGOAT]

Been telling this for a while, but people don't listen lol. Either you need advanced conquerors haki or you need some hax DF (like Law who can just bypass the defences)

But, seems like Marco can somehow bypass that, considering we saw him damage King. Maybe that's the Phoenix flames at work, or maybe it's Oda being inconsistent. IDK

The issue is was Marco going all out? Because if he was then u would say he can beat king at 100%? because king didn’t receive a starch from Marco(if u believe he was all out) when they fought

 

[Nie Li]

Been telling this for a while, but people don't listen lol. Either you need advanced conquerors haki or you need some hax DF (like Law who can just bypass the defences)

But, seems like Marco can somehow bypass that, considering we saw him damage King. Maybe that's the Phoenix flames at work, or maybe it's Oda being inconsistent. IDK

That's 100% inconsistency on Oda's part. Speed-mode King could tank a couple aCoC hits before he went down to a proper ougi. And tank-mode is such a tank that Zoro was waiting for him to go into speed-mode before attacking with aCoC.

 

[grey matter]

That's 100% inconsistency on Oda's part. Speed-mode King could tank a couple aCoC hits before he went down to a proper ougi. And tank-mode is such a tank that Zoro was waiting for him to go into speed-mode before attacking with aCoC.

What is "ougi" ?
As for it being inconsistency, likely yes. But then again, there is precedence of Marco screwing with flames of BM. We know that King's defence is somehow related to the flames, so Marco might have screwed around that as well.

But yeah, he was no selling attacks before advanced conqueror's, the same attacks which damaged Kaido and made him dodge. The minimum damage output needed to damage him is pretty high.
IMO, he went to speed mode only because Zoro got advanced conqueror's to begin with. He didn't want to risk getting hit, so he decided to blitz (well, that didn't work all that good for him).

People really try arguing like "you just need to be fast enough to force him to speed mode, cause he wouldn't be able to tag you otherwise".

Well.......it's not like King's defence mode is exactly slow either.
In fact, his defence mode has CQC/combat-speed relative to current Zoro (his base form had combat speed about same current Zoro, and Zoan/Hybrid forms which were a bit above current Zoro), and above pre Germa-bio raid suit Sanji (what happened during beginning of raid).

Saying someone is fast enough to not get tagged by defence mode King, is like saying someone is fast enough to not get tagged by current Zoro and raid suit Sanji (pre Germa-bio).
There aren't really many characters who are that fast. And if they do exist, are Yonko tiers who should be able to brute force him anyway..

King even has a counter for someone hypothetically that fast, but without advanced conqueor's haki.
He can just allow them free hits and explode himself on contact, like he did against Zoro.

The issue is was Marco going all out? Because if he was then u would say he can beat king at 100%? because king didn’t receive a starch from Marco(if u believe he was all out) when they fought

Marco made King bleed, he did hurt him.

Based on feats, Marco should be able to beat him IMO (assuming that phoenix flames indeed counter King's defence, and that it wasn't some inconsistency).
Marco was so fast that he was on the offense against both King and Queen. Marco's attacks were also demonstrably hurting King. His flames also seem to be of superior quality to King's own, at least until King pulls out his magma-esque flames (magma is probably the only "flame" which is superior to Marco's.).

 

[Nie Li]

What is "ougi" ?
As for it being inconsistency, likely yes. But then again, there is precedence of Marco screwing with flames of BM. We know that King's defence is somehow related to the flames, so Marco might have screwed around that as well.

But yeah, he was no selling attacks before advanced conqueror's, the same attacks which damaged Kaido and made him dodge. The minimum damage output needed to damage him is pretty high.
IMO, he went to speed mode only because Zoro got advanced conqueror's to begin with. He didn't want to risk getting hit, so he decided to blitz (well, that didn't work all that good for him).

People really try arguing like "you just need to be fast enough to force him to speed mode, cause he wouldn't be able to tag you otherwise".

Well.......it's not like King's defence mode is exactly slow either.
In fact, his defence mode has CQC/combat-speed relative to current Zoro (his base form had combat speed about same current Zoro, and Zoan/Hybrid forms which were a bit above current Zoro), and above pre Germa-bio raid suit Sanji (what happened during beginning of raid).

Saying someone is fast enough to not get tagged by defence mode King, is like saying someone is fast enough to not get tagged by current Zoro and raid suit Sanji (pre Germa-bio).
There aren't really many characters who are that fast. And if they do exist, are Yonko tiers who should be able to brute force him anyway..

King even has a counter for someone hypothetically that fast, but without advanced conqueor's haki.
He can just allow them free hits and explode himself on contact, like he did against Zoro.

We're on the same wavelength here.

I do wonder exactly what his top defense is. It's weird that his strategy was to go speed-mode against a CoC user, because Zoro trying to time his attacks with his speed-mode "because he wouldn't be able to damage him on tank-mode" really implies that he's physically harder than hybrid Kaido. Hitting his tank-mode is undeniably easier than hitting his speed-mode and Zoro didn't even want to try that anymore.

Ougi means ultimate/secret technique.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Triumvirate of born monsters

and other two who seemed abnormally strong as kids

 

[grey matter]

We're on the same wavelength here.

I do wonder exactly what his top defense is. It's weird that his strategy was to go speed-mode against a CoC user, because Zoro trying to time his attacks with his speed-mode "because he wouldn't be able to damage him on tank-mode" really implies that he's physically harder than hybrid Kaido. Hitting his tank-mode is undeniably easier than hitting his speed-mode and Zoro didn't even want to try that anymore.

Ougi means ultimate/secret technique.

In hindsight, it was a bad mode, because King was doing pretty fine blocking and overwhelming Zoro's attacks even in defence mode.

But IMO he went speed mode because he wanted to blitz him and overwhelm with speed. He probably though that since Zoro was barely keeping up with him in combat in his defence mode, he would end up blitzing the shit out of his in speed mode.
Zoro managed to counter it only because he had good observation haki and CQC, the speed itself was too much for him (to the point King "vanished" from him).

Also, King's defence mode can be harmed by advanced conqueror's haki. Maybe Zoro didn't realize it in the beginning, but King certainly knew it would hurt him (likely due to experience with Kaido).
Zoro eventually ended up realizing it too. We saw this later with Zoro taunting why King is blocking his attacks instead of tanking them, asking if it would hurt him.
The final attack Zoro used, that defeated King, was also when King was in his defence mode (flames out).

And yes, King is definitely physically harder than Kaido, since he was no selling attacks that damaged Kaido. But Kaido has far more durability.
More of a HP vs armour thing, like for example in age of empires 2.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

In hindsight, it was a bad mode, because King was doing pretty fine blocking and overwhelming Zoro's attacks even in defence mode.

But IMO he went speed mode because he wanted to blitz him and overwhelm with speed. He probably though that since Zoro was barely keeping up with him in combat in his defence mode, he would end up blitzing the shit out of his in speed mode.
Zoro managed to counter it only because he had good observation haki and CQC, the speed itself was too much for him (to the point King "vanished" from him).

Also, King's defence mode can be harmed by advanced conqueror's haki. Maybe Zoro didn't realize it in the beginning, but King certainly knew it would hurt him (likely due to experience with Kaido).
Zoro eventually ended up realizing it too. We saw this later with Zoro taunting why King is blocking his attacks instead of tanking them, asking if it would hurt him.
The final attack Zoro used, that defeated King, was also when King was in his defence mode (flames out).

And yes, King is definitely physically harder than Kaido, since he was no selling attacks that damaged Kaido. But Kaido has far more durability.
More of a HP vs armour thing, like for example in age of empires 2.

Also he seemed to recover remember those attacks seemed somewhat shallow still even tho it “damaged” him

 

[Nie Li]

In hindsight, it was a bad mode, because King was doing pretty fine blocking and overwhelming Zoro's attacks even in defence mode.

But IMO he went speed mode because he wanted to blitz him and overwhelm with speed. He probably though that since Zoro was barely keeping up with him in combat in his defence mode, he would end up blitzing the shit out of his in speed mode.
Zoro managed to counter it only because he had good observation haki and CQC, the speed itself was too much for him (to the point King "vanished" from him).

Also, King's defence mode can be harmed by advanced conqueror's haki. Maybe Zoro didn't realize it in the beginning, but King certainly knew it would hurt him (likely due to experience with Kaido).
Zoro eventually ended up realizing it too. We saw this later with Zoro taunting why King is blocking his attacks instead of tanking them, asking if it would hurt him.
The final attack Zoro used, that defeated King, was also when King was in his defence mode (flames out).

And yes, King is definitely physically harder than Kaido, since he was no selling attacks that damaged Kaido. But Kaido has far more durability.
More of a HP vs armour thing, like for example in age of empires 2.

Here I disagree on two details.

I'm pretty sure King didn't go down in defense mode. He was using a fire attack but he didn't have flames on his back as far as I remember during that last exchange. The flames on his back are the sign of defense mode, not fire attacks in general.

Zoro never realized he could hurt King in defense mode, which is why I think he could not. He did taunt King, as you say, but it was after the taunt that Zoro had an inner monologue in which he acknowledged he couldn't hurt him "now" because the flames were on his back and was waiting for his speed mode to unleash his aCoC.

 

[grey matter]

I'm pretty sure King didn't go down in defense mode. He was using a fire attack but he didn't have flames on his back as far as I remember during that last exchange. The flames on his back are the sign of defense mode, not fire attacks in general.

Debatable.

We have seen King using fire attacks, when there is flame on his back as well. Have to re-read to be sure, but check out Marco blocking that attack from King, pretty sure he threw a fire blast while having flames behind him.

Zoro never realized he could hurt King in defense mode, which is why I think he could not. He did taunt King, as you say, but it was after the taunt that Zoro had an inner monologue in which he acknowledged he couldn't hurt him "now" because the flames were on his back and was waiting for his speed mode to unleash his aCoC.

Does it make any sense that King would be blocking and dodging attacks from Zoro (with advanced conqueror's), if it didn't hurt him?

To put it in context, he was previously willingly let Zoro attack him, because it doesn't hurt him at all. He can also just explode himself upon contact, so if Zoro's attacks cannot hurt him, it saves him the effort to actually try and tag Zoro and instead can just keep exploding.

As for whether Zoro realized he could hurt him with advanced conqueror's or not. I though he realized it towards the end.
But if what you say is true, maybe he didn't realize it after all. I'll read the chapter again later to make sure.

Also he seemed to recover remember those attacks seemed somewhat shallow still even tho it “damaged” him

What do you mean?

You mean Kaido was recovering from attacks without advanced conqueror's? I don't remember that happening
Or you mean King? Cause I think I remember seeing some King getting "cuts" when Zoro used the dragon twister, but then he turned out to be fine.

 

[Nie Li]

Debatable.

We have seen King using fire attacks, when there is flame on his back as well. Have to re-read to be sure, but check out Marco blocking that attack from King, pretty sure he threw a fire blast while having flames behind him.

I'm not saying that he can't use fire attacks in tank mode, I'm saying that he didn't do so at that specific time.

Defense mode means flames on his back. I may be mistaken and he had them on at that last moment, but I don't remember him having them on in those last panels.

Does it make any sense that King would be blocking and dodging attacks from Zoro (with advanced conqueror's), if it didn't hurt him?

To put it in context, he was previously willingly let Zoro attack him, because it doesn't hurt him at all. He can also just explode himself upon contact, so if Zoro's attacks cannot hurt him, it saves him the effort to actually try and tag Zoro and instead can just keep exploding.

As for whether Zoro realized he could hurt him with advanced conqueror's or not. I though he realized it towards the end.
But if what you say is true, maybe he didn't realize it after all. I'll read the chapter again later to make sure.

I agree that it does not make perfect sense, but neither option does here to me.

It's the conclusion Zoro arrived at, and I'm always talking towards the very end of the fight. I take Zoro's conclusion as Oda's words in this particular case because it's literally the only thing we have to go by regarding King's modes, whether it makes perfect sense or not. Could simply be that King started blocking in speed mode and hadn't before.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 22, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 22, 2022 ---

To add: I think his tank mode has some kind of limit, which is probably why he switches modes at all.

 

[LadyVados]

As it stands tho king eventually defeats marco kat and any other first mate who doesn’t aCOC so far it seems that’s the requirement to hurt him
He’ll win every fight via battle of attrition

100% People are massively lowballing King because he's Zoro's opponent and they can't stand him being stronger than Luffy's opponent Kata. He's definitely the strongest YC1 (not counting Benny boy and Ray).

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

The issue is was Marco going all out? Because if he was then u would say he can beat king at 100%? because king didn’t receive a starch from Marco(if u believe he was all out) when they fought

Marco had no reason to hold back but his force is lacking

What is "ougi" ?
As for it being inconsistency, likely yes. But then again, there is precedence of Marco screwing with flames of BM. We know that King's defence is somehow related to the flames, so Marco might have screwed around that as well.

But yeah, he was no selling attacks before advanced conqueror's, the same attacks which damaged Kaido and made him dodge. The minimum damage output needed to damage him is pretty high.
IMO, he went to speed mode only because Zoro got advanced conqueror's to begin with. He didn't want to risk getting hit, so he decided to blitz (well, that didn't work all that good for him).

People really try arguing like "you just need to be fast enough to force him to speed mode, cause he wouldn't be able to tag you otherwise".

Well.......it's not like King's defence mode is exactly slow either.
In fact, his defence mode has CQC/combat-speed relative to current Zoro (his base form had combat speed about same current Zoro, and Zoan/Hybrid forms which were a bit above current Zoro), and above pre Germa-bio raid suit Sanji (what happened during beginning of raid).

Saying someone is fast enough to not get tagged by defence mode King, is like saying someone is fast enough to not get tagged by current Zoro and raid suit Sanji (pre Germa-bio).
There aren't really many characters who are that fast. And if they do exist, are Yonko tiers who should be able to brute force him anyway..

King even has a counter for someone hypothetically that fast, but without advanced conqueor's haki.
He can just allow them free hits and explode himself on contact, like he did against Zoro.



Marco made King bleed, he did hurt him.

Based on feats, Marco should be able to beat him IMO (assuming that phoenix flames indeed counter King's defence, and that it wasn't some inconsistency).
Marco was so fast that he was on the offense against both King and Queen. Marco's attacks were also demonstrably hurting King. His flames also seem to be of superior quality to King's own, at least until King pulls out his magma-esque flames (magma is probably the only "flame" which is superior to Marco's.).

it was shallow as hell damage , king and queen got superficial damage fighting marco

Debatable.

We have seen King using fire attacks, when there is flame on his back as well. Have to re-read to be sure, but check out Marco blocking that attack from King, pretty sure he threw a fire blast while having flames behind him.



Does it make any sense that King would be blocking and dodging attacks from Zoro (with advanced conqueror's), if it didn't hurt him?

To put it in context, he was previously willingly let Zoro attack him, because it doesn't hurt him at all. He can also just explode himself upon contact, so if Zoro's attacks cannot hurt him, it saves him the effort to actually try and tag Zoro and instead can just keep exploding.

As for whether Zoro realized he could hurt him with advanced conqueror's or not. I though he realized it towards the end.
But if what you say is true, maybe he didn't realize it after all. I'll read the chapter again later to make sure.



What do you mean?

You mean Kaido was recovering from attacks without advanced conqueror's? I don't remember that happening
Or you mean King? Cause I think I remember seeing some King getting "cuts" when Zoro used the dragon twister, but then he turned out to be fine.

Yeah kaido shrugging off all the No aCOC all the Ryou attacks didn’t deeply phase him

 

[HereNThere]

I don't think it's inconsistent that Marco hurt King. In my opinion, while AdCoC makes the process easier, you can likely damage him when enough force is applied.

I know Kid's contributions against Big Mom are often disputed, but through him, Oda has been consistent with showing, that when enough force is applied, one can bypass extraordinary durability.

Marco likely hits hard enough (enough to make King bleed), but as implied in the manga, taking on King and Queen simultaneously just isn't feasible. It'd still be a close fight probably. Aramaki, who implied the Beast Pirates attacked him, seemed to be able to handle him just fine and we don't know if he has AdCoC.

 

[Fox666]

We're on the same wavelength here.

I do wonder exactly what his top defense is. It's weird that his strategy was to go speed-mode against a CoC user, because Zoro trying to time his attacks with his speed-mode "because he wouldn't be able to damage him on tank-mode" really implies that he's physically harder than hybrid Kaido. Hitting his tank-mode is undeniably easier than hitting his speed-mode and Zoro didn't even want to try that anymore.

Ougi means ultimate/secret technique.

I suppose King's defense may limit his attack considerably?

I don't think it's inconsistent that Marco hurt King. In my opinion, while AdCoC makes the process easier, you can likely damage him when enough force is applied.

I think the easiest explanation is that Marco's fire ability nullifies King's power.

However it's also possible that if your Haki is strong enough, then you can hurt King.

It does look like Marco was using Haki here?

 

[grey matter]

I'm not saying that he can't use fire attacks in tank mode, I'm saying that he didn't do so at that specific time.

Defense mode means flames on his back. I may be mistaken and he had them on at that last moment, but I don't remember him having them on in those last panels.

I read the chapter, seems like we have no way to know at all, since we have no view of King's back. Might need to wait for anime for that.

I agree that it does not make perfect sense, but neither option does here to me.

It's the conclusion Zoro arrived at, and I'm always talking towards the very end of the fight. I take Zoro's conclusion as Oda's words in this particular case because it's literally the only thing we have to go by regarding King's modes, whether it makes perfect sense or not. Could simply be that King started blocking in speed mode and hadn't before.

On bold part. No, this is incorrect. I just read the chapter.

Zoro mentions about his attacks hurting, towards the very finale of the fight. After seeing King block and dodge his attacks.

onepiece-mangaonline.com

It kinda shows Zoro going from:
"Well I have to wait for this dude to use his speed mode"

To:
"Well, seems like I can harm hum anyway afterall"

To add: I think his tank mode has some kind of limit, which is probably why he switches modes at all.

I don't think this is the case.

The defence mode is his default mode. In fact, until Zoro vs King, we have never even seen King without flames on his back.
If anything, the speed mode is his non default mode.

This is why the scientists can do whatever the hell they want on King as a kid, and he ends up fine. Because by default he is always in his defence mode/

it was shallow as hell damage , king and queen got superficial damage fighting marco

You mean Marco dealt only superficial damage to them?
I doubt bleeding from your mouth while sitting on your ass is superficial damage.

Yeah kaido shrugging off all the No aCOC all the Ryou attacks didn’t deeply phase him

He didn't "shrugg off" the damage.

The Scabbards legit knocked him out for a while, and he was bleeding buckets.
Zoro and Luffy (both pre advanced conqueror's) were also hurting him, making him bleed, making him dodge etc

It's just that advanced conqueror's is far more effective against Kaido than advanced armament.

I don't think it's inconsistent that Marco hurt King. In my opinion, while AdCoC makes the process easier, you can likely damage him when enough force is applied.

I know Kid's contributions against Big Mom are often disputed, but through him, Oda has been consistent with showing, that when enough force is applied, one can bypass extraordinary durability.

Marco likely hits hard enough (enough to make King bleed), but as implied in the manga, taking on King and Queen simultaneously just isn't feasible. It'd still be a close fight probably. Aramaki, who implied the Beast Pirates attacked him, seemed to be able to handle him just fine and we don't know if he has AdCoC.

While I certainly believe that absolute brute force can eventually put a dent on even the strongest of defences. I don't think Marco's here was specifically that case.

Do you think Marco hits vastly superior to rooftop Zoro? Because that is the only way the "Marco just had that much attack power" argument works here.

Rooftop Zoro managed to make Kaido bleed and dodge, and King completely no sold his attacks. You think Marco's attack power is on a completely different tier from this Zoro?
I would say that Marco's attack power is comparable to rooftop Zoro's. And definitely not enough to get past King's defences.

The logical explanation would be that Pheonix flames are simply superior to most flames, including King's. So it countered King's defence mode by disrupting whatever King's flames does.

 

[LadyVados]

I think you guys are making too much of a deal out of a drop of blood.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

I read the chapter, seems like we have no way to know at all, since we have no view of King's back. Might need to wait for anime for that.



On bold part. No, this is incorrect. I just read the chapter.

Zoro mentions about his attacks hurting, towards the very finale of the fight. After seeing King block and dodge his attacks.

onepiece-mangaonline.com

It kinda shows Zoro going from:
"Well I have to wait for this dude to use his speed mode"

To:
"Well, seems like I can harm hum anyway afterall"



I don't think this is the case.

The defence mode is his default mode. In fact, until Zoro vs King, we have never even seen King without flames on his back.
If anything, the speed mode is his non default mode.

This is why the scientists can do whatever the hell they want on King as a kid, and he ends up fine. Because by default he is always in his defence mode/



You mean Marco dealt only superficial damage to them?
I doubt bleeding from your mouth while sitting on your ass is superficial damage.



He didn't "shrugg off" the damage.

The Scabbards legit knocked him out for a while, and he was bleeding buckets.
Zoro and Luffy (both pre advanced conqueror's) were also hurting him, making him bleed, making him dodge etc

It's just that advanced conqueror's is far more effective against Kaido than advanced armament.



While I certainly believe that absolute brute force can eventually put a dent on even the strongest of defences. I don't think Marco's here was specifically that case.

Do you think Marco hits vastly superior to rooftop Zoro? Because that is the only way the "Marco just had that much attack power" argument works here.

Rooftop Zoro managed to make Kaido bleed and dodge, and King completely no sold his attacks. You think Marco's attack power is on a completely different tier from this Zoro?
I would say that Marco's attack power is comparable to rooftop Zoro's. And definitely not enough to get past King's defences.

The logical explanation would be that Pheonix flames are simply superior to most flames, including King's. So it countered King's defence mode by disrupting whatever King's flames does.

Phoenix flames don’t burn they do have special properties but they don’t seem to have standard attack properties
And king and queen received superficial damage from Marco , it wasn’t like king was bleeding and coughing blood , it was superficial damage relatively
Especially considering queen walked it off pretty well , Marco seems to like “bite” his speciality seems to be stalling + defense + speed

 

[HereNThere]

Do you think Marco hits vastly superior to rooftop Zoro? Because that is the only way the "Marco just had that much attack power" argument works here.

Rooftop Zoro managed to make Kaido bleed and dodge, and King completely no sold his attacks. You think Marco's attack power is on a completely different tier from this Zoro?
I would say that Marco's attack power is comparable to rooftop Zoro's. And definitely not enough to get past King's defences.

The logical explanation would be that Pheonix flames are simply superior to most flames, including King's. So it countered King's defence mode by disrupting whatever King's flames does.

We see on panel that Marco's hits were causing Defense mode King to bleed, so I think it'd be a fair argument to make. Marco's flying knee was the attack we saw on King in defense mode, so the simplest conclusion is that Marco is strong enough to bypass base King's durability. The chapter had Queen note that some of Marco's attacks also have shock wave properties, which could be the sole contributing factor, but, even apart from that, Marco being capable of knocking both King and Queen around as he did still implies a good level of physical strength.

King was no selling attacks from a Zoro who wasn't putting everything in those attacks as he was against Kaido i.e. Zoro not using AdCoC. Zoro without using AdCoC, in my opinion, is indeed weaker than Marco. With AdCoC, Zoro is comparable to, if not stronger than, Marco, with the main difference being Zoro's increased lethality, which allows him to take down his foes a lot quicker than Marco could potentially.

It should also be noted that all of Zoro's AdCoC attacks were done on a King who was at his most vulnerable in Speed Mode. While it is implied that King was worried that Zoro would eventually cut him in Defense Mode, it was never shown and the final attack landed on him while he wasn't using his flames.

I think the logical explanation is that Marco is just capable of bypassing King's defenses through his physical attacks and/or shockwaves, as shown and stated in the series. Nothing we were shown implies that Marco's Phoneix flames were the reason he was able to harm King, especially when he wasn't shown using his fruit to do his knee attack. Oda has had no issues expositing Marco's wacky flames, as he did for the Ice Oni stuff and against Prometheus, so if it was effective against King's flames, I would think he'd notate there as well.