Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.
It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.
For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.
As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.
This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.
No, I won't. I wanted to do this for a long time and now I am doing it. I am tired of having to explain myself thousands of times either, so its great if I can have a complete list to refer to.
It hasn't been a good argumentation of mine when I told people to keep their Dragon Ball glasses off or that they are inflating everything like with their perceived inbetween arc power-jumps, or that the monster trio doesn't even exist for large parts of the story, if I have nothing to back that up.
I don't want to discuss Zoro vs Sanji Jinbe v Sanji any YC 12345 stuff either anymore that's completely boring and also makes no sense at the stage of the story we are at anymore.
Ashura and Shusui were seperate power-ups for Zoro but I am arguing that there isn't much of a difference in strenght between either variant of Zoro because there isn't, the Haki in Shusui wasn't his and Yubashili wasn't a bad sword either.
Page One is a fat lizard he doesn't have anything special going on for him, several pre-skip characters can lay him. He was even mocked for not cutting it in the Tobi Roppo meeting, clearly he is below all the others.
At least put "Spoiler" tags, since it is pretty long and takes up alot space on the thread page.
I wouldnt technically consider Ashura a power up for Zolo. I would consider it as a "finishing move". It is not the same as Luffy's gear power ups.
Page One would not lost to several pre TS characters. Page One has CoO and most likely CoA as well. He gave Raidsuit Sanji some difficulty. Are you insinuating Raid Suit Sanji is below Pre TS Supernovas? I would rank Raid Suit Sanji above normal VA/above Vergo. Page One could possibly be as strong or stronger than Vergo. Name a Pre TS Supernova that can defeat Vergo.
oh man, that's a big list... i'll try and go through everything, but questions here..>
Why Kozuki Oden? While with others, there are strong arguments to be made of their strength, specificallt advanced conqueror's haki. But Kozuki Oden its pretty much confirmed that he can't, right?
I'd question Shirahoshi as well, what can she do in land for instance? And if her ability to control sea kings brings it up, surely Momonosuke is a contendor or a question mark too
oh man, that's a big list... i'll try and go through everything, but questions here..>
Why Kozuki Oden? While with others, there are strong arguments to be made of their strength, specificallt advanced conqueror's haki. But Kozuki Oden its pretty much confirmed that he can't, right?
I'd question Shirahoshi as well, what can she do in land for instance? And if her ability to control sea kings brings it up, surely Momonosuke is a contendor or a question mark too
Merfolk are weird the females are half human half fish, but the males are half fishman half fish, so I am going to assume that Merman have 10x Human strenght and Mermaids have not, or just in their tail as Kokoro knocking out a Marine Commander or Captain with it and them being the fastest swimmers implies.
Also never noticed but Drake despises his dad. That's why he writes the Diez as X. As in, that name is crossed out.
Merfolk are weird the females are half human half fish, but the males are half fishman half fish, so I am going to assume that Merman have 10x Human strenght and Mermaids have not, or just in their tail as Kokoro knocking out a Marine Commander or Captain with it and them being the fastest swimmers implies.
Also never noticed but Drake despises his dad. That's why he writes the Diez as X. As in, that name is crossed out.
I sorted them by affiliation so you don't have to look at a list that looks like a huge block of Ababos and Bubidus, I get most people aren't much aware about all the miniscule extra characters and that way you can find the important characters more easily. Plus, as more and more characters will join the Straw Hats, it will narrow down into a nice comparison of the major forces soon enough.
I was trying to find fitting names since YC1 stuff never made much sense, so I thought since there's three different seas so conquer, that would be the best names, besides I added typically video game ladder terms. Throne is because above those is the Red Line holding the Empty Throne, the series is about becoming Pirate King, Doflamingo spoke about a Throne War, and these are the people that have a shot, power-wise.
They are stronger but what does it matter. Two deceased characters don't make up a tier.
It is not about who is stronger within each tier, you can make countless subdivisions everywhere if you want, in the end you get 1,2,3,4,5 that's not desirable.
Dog/Cat cannot beat Jack without Sulong. Neither Ashura or Denjiro is much stronger or weaker then them, they don't even have many feats to begin with. I don't know how you can infer Ashura Doji is stronger than Jack from 1 cut.
Jack is basically like a gearcheck encounter he has a massive hp bar, absuletely massive, and you either bring the dps before he turns yours to zero or you lose.
It makes no sense to construct a Tier out of one character, "Jack Tier", and all this YC subdivion stuff never made much sense to begin with in an universe with 1000+ characters.
It is really based on can you beat everyone below and would you lose to everyone above. That way you actually also see how miniscule the difference between Katakuri and Jack is, because the number of characters that can beat either is quite small and it's only a handful more for Jack.
bruh why do u think jack and cracker are on the same tier as katakuri and king lol
page one weaker than pre time skip characters lol did forget that he fought a raid suit sanji and was oneshotted by big mom??
page one>ts characters I feel like because u felt like he had a bad showing u translate that to he weak. Let me tell u this page one>px kumas>pre ts characters that’s a fact
@McNuss Not agreeing with you or saying your list is confusing is not bullying Mate.
I’ve quoted you before with appreciation for the time you took to name so many characters. As other have we gave you your kudos. But you have characters like Page One & Even Gecko Mora in tiers they don’t belong in.
It’s a lil confusing in terms of highlighted names, Maybe you should use that for the more core important characters that like the SHP, who have climbed the different ranks. I get the whole Gears, Daimble Jamble…I don’t hate your list, but there are characters in places where they shouldn’t be
@McNuss Not agreeing with you or saying your list is confusing is not bullying Mate.
I’ve quoted you before with appreciation for the time you took to name so many characters. As other have we gave you your kudos. But you have characters like Page One & Even Gecko Mora in tiers they don’t belong in.
It’s a lil confusing in terms of highlighted names, Maybe you should use that for the more core important characters that like the SHP, who have climbed the different ranks. I get the whole Gears, Daimble Jamble…I don’t hate your list, but there are characters in places where they shouldn’t be
It's not about who's stronger within a tier but solely based on "can they beat everyone below" and "do they lose to everyone above"
About the bold parts I am thinking of changing that, let's try that out here:
Let's check this for Page One and later Moria if you want. I added bounties so you can really see how well thought through this is:
Page One should beat Yarisugi, who is about as strong as Coribou.
By that we can deduce he probably beats the average Marine HQ Commodore, and as such should also beat Daigin and probably Brannew.
Page One should beat Tashigi.
Page One should beat Jabra.
Page One should beat Fukaboshi.
Page One should beat Baby 5.
Page One should beat Bellamy.
Page One should beat Hajrudin.
Page One should beat the current Chinjao.
Page One should beat Blue Gilly.
Page One should beat Daz Bones.
Page One should beat the Gorgon Sisters.
Page One should beat Vito and Gotti.
Page One should beat Viper.
Page One should beat Brownbeard.
Page One should beat the Funk Brothers.
Page One should beat Jean Ango.
Page One should beat Senor Pink.
Page One should beat Machvise.
Page One should beat Albion.
Page One should beat the Kaku from before the timeskip.
Page One should beat the Robin from before the timeskip.
Page One should beat Zoro prior to learning how to cut steel.
Page One should beat Luffy prior to acquiring Gears.
Page One should beat the Sanji from before the timeskip.
Page One should beat the Chopper from before the timeskip.
As such, he should also beat the Jailor Beasts.
Page One should beat Hody Jones prior to overdosing.
Page One should beat Hyouzou prior to overdosing.
Page One should beat Absalom.
Page One should beat Ryuma (Zombie).
Page One should beat Bobbin.
Page One was ranked higher than Babanuki, Holed'em, Sheepshead and Scotch and thus should beat them.
Page One defeated Usopp.
Page One defeated Nami with the Wukong Tact. See it is much less about the in-tier than above and below.
Pacifista are overrated, Page One beats them.
Sugar is dangerous but not a fighter, Page One wins.
Hawkins prior to the timeskip didn't even have the Strawman, Page One wins.
Next, the above:
X Drake was a Marine Rear Admiral prior to going undercover. Since then, he has acquired Haki, which is the condition for becoming a Vice Admiral, pretty much indicating he is Vice Admiral rank.
X Drake was alluded to be stronger than Page One in the initial meet up of the Tobi Roppo.
As such the veteran Marine HQ Vice Admirals here should all also be capable of beating Page One.
Bartolomeo is of similar strenght to them seeing how easily he waltzed the more inexperienced Vice Admiral Maynard.
Cavendish and Sai are implied to be of similar strenght to Bartolomeo.
Sasaki and Black Maria are both implied to be stronger than him.
Robin beat Black Maria and Brook wasn't implied to be behind her in strenght either,
Nami with the Zeus Tact ultimately beat Ulti. Another glimpse of Zeus' power was shown in WCI when she blew Big Mom into a hole.
Chopper with the Rumble Upgrade could hold himself against Queen for a while.
Caesar Clown beat Luffy once and even if you take away the oxygen drain, there's poison gas, hallucinogenic gas, etc. Caesar also beat Usopp and Nami and gas is faster than a semiaquatic dinosaur.
Enel can spam lighting bolts roasting everyone, he also has mastered albeit sloppy CoO.
Roronoa Zoro's Ashura is revealed to be CoC related, I can't see Page One coping with that. Would be a tough fight, Shusui would make it slightly easier. Zoro already has massive stamina at this point he isn't going down from a lizard.
That means Lucci, Luffy, Law and Kid from that era beat him, too.
Hody Jones has been compared to a Supernova in his drugged state, and from a narrative perspective a good way to show off the characters power-ups was to make them defeat their previous selves, in Luffy's case, underwater.
Post-Skip Sanji without any power-ups would beat Page One, too. Robin and Franky won without either. Sanji wouldn't lose.
Oven and Daifuku are Sanji's calibre, but weaker than Count Niwatori going by bounties, Pedro is in turn stronger than either Baron Tamago or Viscount Hiyoko, but probably thus more close to the latter, putting them all in the same tier as well as Sishilian, who is Pedro's equal and who was shown resting against a rock with his hat in front of the eyes after the Sulong onslaught on Jack, meaning he didn't get defeated here, time just ran out.
Stussy is conjecture, masked agents seem similar to Vergo, Stussy is weaker, thus here.
The mayhaps most controversial part is Kyros, Trebol and Diamante, but Trebol was work for Luffy and Law and he can send lift massive objects with his fruit. But Diamante is the leader of the combattants. The fight against Kyros was very emotionally loaded, but I think Kyros was implied to be really strong, too. He one shot Buffalo, indicating he is many times stronger than him.
I think my placement of Page One is accurate so far. Of course, the list isn't 100% complete but I don't think too much will change anymore. It is mostly the Charlottes and Wano arc characters that are still missing.
Again, it is not about who is stronger within a tier. That only results in pointless an miniscule rankings rather than the construction of tiers.
There's only a handful more characters that Katakuri can defeat and Jack cannot.
There's only a handful more characters that can defeat Jack but not Katakuri.
Not placing them in the same tier is nonsense. They both are top class villains in the same story segment, that deals with the Yonko and their subordinate crew.
Now we are in a different story segment that will involve all of the strongest of the strongest of the world.
Jozu and Vista, even Marco, they all were pretty inefficient in Marineford, too, and the story is moving now past them.
Yeah, I could have saved myself the work, but I have now explained three times or something how the tier list works, I thought I would need to map it out more.
No, power ups happen when mentioned in the story. There is no basis for Sanji having gotten stronger while selling Soba noodles. Sanji got stronger due to the Raid Suit, and alter on due to...something. There is also no reason to believe Sanji couln't have beaten Page One without any power-up seeing how Robin and Franky won without one either, against stronger opponents.
The idea that pre-skip and post-skip One Piece are set in a totally different universe is also totally off and doesn't really fit the stakes the story is building up. The Straw Hats performed things already, Page One wouldn't even get in his most wet pirate dreams, like destroying Enies Lobby, causing a mass break-out in Impel Down and being the key player during a war filled with the elites of the world.
Luffy got a whole lot stronger between East Blue and Arabasta, right?
The purpose of Bellamy character is to show Luffy's evolution, he one-shot a 55 million pirate... who otherwise would be a villain impossible to defeat in East Blue
But no power-up was ever mentioned for Luffy until he used Gear 2 in Ennies Lobby
Wano is the best example of this, the entire crew got many times stronger during the raid
No. Why? Luffy waltzes pretty much everyone and everything prior to facing Crocodile. He one-shots a Sea King in the second chapter!
The purpose of Bellamy character is to show Luffy's evolution, he one-shot a 55 million pirate... who otherwise would be a villain impossible to defeat in East Blue
Wrong. All of the East Blue Villains have inaccurate bounties, except Alvida (fat).
Buggy they don't know he was a Roger Pirate.
Kuro is officially dead.
Arlong bribed the Marines.
And lastly, Krieg lost his huge ass armada shortly after entering the Grand Line. We are presented varios organisations throughout the GL, and Krieg's would have been a massive force, easily warranting a much higher bounty.
Bellamy is like Arlong, but with less brain. Spring Death whatever it was called is essentially like Kuro's cat buckle, more power traded off for uncontrolability. Had he not used it he could maybe have put up a fight. You also have Foxy, who is just 30 something millions put up a better fight than either Arlong or Bellamy.
But no power-up was ever mentioned for Luffy until he used Gear 2 in Ennies Lobby
Wano is the best example of this, the entire crew got many times stronger during the raid
Everyone that got stronger, it was explicitly mentioned. And it did not happen for the entire crew, just Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Sanji, while Chopper acquired his before.
X Drake was a Marine Rear Admiral prior to going undercover. Since then, he has acquired Haki, which is the condition for becoming a Vice Admiral, pretty much indicating he is Vice Admiral rank.
X Drake was alluded to be stronger than Page One in the initial meet up of the Tobi Roppo. As such the veteran Marine HQ Vice Admirals here should all also be capable of beating Page One.
Bartolomeo is of similar strenght to them seeing how easily he waltzed the more inexperienced Vice Admiral Maynard.
Cavendish and Sai are implied to be of similar strenght to Bartolomeo.
Sasaki and Black Maria are both implied to be stronger than him.
Robin beat Black Maria and Brook wasn't implied to be behind her in strenght either,
Nami with the Zeus Tact ultimately beat Ulti. Another glimpse of Zeus' power was shown in WCI when she blew Big Mom into a hole.
Chopper with the Rumble Upgrade could hold himself against Queen for a while.
Caesar Clown beat Luffy once and even if you take away the oxygen drain, there's poison gas, hallucinogenic gas, etc. Caesar also beat Usopp and Nami and gas is faster than a semiaquatic dinosaur.
Roronoa Zoro's Ashura is revealed to be CoC related, I can't see Page One coping with that. Would be a tough fight, Shusui would make it slightly easier. Zoro already has massive stamina at this point he isn't going down from a lizard.
That means Lucci, Luffy, Law and Kid from that era beat him, too.
Hody Jones has been compared to a Supernova in his drugged state, and from a narrative perspective a good way to show off the characters power-ups was to make them defeat their previous selves, in Luffy's case, underwater.
Post-Skip Sanji without any power-ups would beat Page One, too. Robin and Franky won without either. Sanji wouldn't lose.
I believe the senior VAs (Momonga, Vergo, Stainless, Strawberry, Doberman, Onigumo) can hold their own against some of the Flying 6 and Top tiers of BM pirate crew. Other junior VAs like Maynard and Smoker probably cannot. Don't include Maynard with the rest of the senior VAs. We clearly saw there is a difference in power level between the Vice Admirals themselves. Example: Smoker (junior VA) versus Vergo (senior VA).
So if you are trying to say that Barto > Maynard > Page One, you're definitely wrong.
I can see Franky Shogun being able to beat mid diff Page One, and Sasaki is a little bit stronger than Page One but Franky lost his sword and Iron Shogun, but was able to beat Sasaki with a Radical Beam in his underbelly. I feel that P1 would be more tougher for Franky to deal with since he is faster than him.
BUT you cannot claim Robin >=Brook > Black Maria > P1.
There is no evidence that Brooks > Page one
Are you suggesting Nami or Chopper can beat Page One? Please read the manga again. Queen was obviously toying with Chopper if you seriously believe Chopper could hold his ground against a serious Queen, think again. Nami beat a tired worn out weakened Ulti, with a Zeus power up.
Now onto the Pre TS characters that can "defeat" Page One.
You have to be joking or be a big Zolo fan to claim that a Pre TS Zolo with Shusui could defeat Page One. And by association, Kid, Law, and Luffy all Pre Timeskip can defeat a Vice Admiral level with CoA and CoO New World Veteran, directly under a Yonko's top commanders Page One. I don't think the Pre TS Supernovas were on a senior VA level, since they could not use CoA or CoO. I also believe Senior VAs >>> Pre TS Lucci.
This is why I am think your list is so wrong on many levels.
Finally, Post TS Sanji vs Page One. Sanji has gotten stronger since Punk Hazard, since he fought (almost lost) to Vergo. Punk hazard Sanji is not the same as Wano Sanji, pre-Onigashima.
We saw how Sanji used a power up that made him invisible, faster, more resilient, and stronger in order to defeat Page One. Unfortunately, we didn't get to see the whole fight and the outcome but it is heavily implied that Sanji won. Although, keep in mind, we have no idea how difficult it was for Sanji to beat Page One. I would go ahead and say it was a mid diff. Therefore, Pre-Onigashima Wano Raid Suit Sanji mid diffs Page One.
This same Sanji would definitely low diff Vergo, a senior VA.
Also remember a Pre-Rooftop ACoA Gear 3 Luffy punch wasn't able to injure Page One as much.
Idk why you don't like Page One but you are severely underestimating him.
Lastly, I don't get why you bother bringing up useless non-important characters in this discussion like Jean Argo or Albion or the Funk brothers. Like literally nobody cares where they fall in the story.
I believe the senior VAs (Momonga, Vergo, Stainless, Strawberry, Doberman, Onigumo) can hold their own against some of the Flying 6 and Top tiers of BM pirate crew. Other junior VAs like Maynard and Smoker probably cannot. Don't include Maynard with the rest of the senior VAs. We clearly saw there is a difference in power level between the Vice Admirals themselves. Example: Smoker (junior VA) versus Vergo (senior VA).
So if you are trying to say that Barto > Maynard > Page One, you're definitely wrong.
No I am saying that Barto is a tier above Maynard, which the list reflects.
Smoker is about as strong as Vergo, he played him by the fiddle and got what he wanted.
I can see Franky Shogun being able to beat mid diff Page One, and Sasaki is a little bit stronger than Page One but Franky lost his sword and Iron Shogun, but was able to beat Sasaki with a Radical Beam in his underbelly. I feel that P1 would be more tougher for Franky to deal with since he is faster than him.
BUT you cannot claim Robin >=Brook > Black Maria > P1.
There is no evidence that Brooks > Page one
There is also no evidence that Brook is significantly weaker than Robin or Franky, but Black Maria and Sasaki have both been portrayed as stronger than Page One. Page One is a fat lizard why the defense, I don't get it. I thought it was pretty unquestioned that Page One is the weakest Tobi Roppo.
Are you suggesting Nami or Chopper can beat Page One? Please read the manga again. Queen was obviously toying with Chopper if you seriously believe Chopper could hold his ground against a serious Queen, think again. Nami beat a tired worn out weakened Ulti, with a Zeus power up.
Chopper, it is a bit conjecture but Monster Point has pretty much implied to be Zoan Awakening, I'd rather place it pretty high.
Now onto the Pre TS characters that can "defeat" Page One.
You have to be joking or be a big Zolo fan to claim that a Pre TS Zolo with Shusui could defeat Page One. And by association, Kid, Law, and Luffy all Pre Timeskip can defeat a Vice Admiral level with CoA and CoO New World Veteran, directly under a Yonko's top commanders Page One. I don't think the Pre TS Supernovas were on a senior VA level, since they could not use CoA or CoO. I also believe Senior VAs >>> Pre TS Lucci.
This is why I am think your list is so wrong on many levels.
Naah, I all think this here has Dragon Ball glasses all over.
Monkey D. Luffy is someone that has infiltrated all three Government main facilities, and fucked up two of them in the process, He defeated two Shishibukai and the genius of CP9. You destroy any sense of organic world building by thinking Page One would truly be a threat to this guy.
Luffy Preskip: 400M
Page One: 290M
Finally, Post TS Sanji vs Page One. Sanji has gotten stronger since Punk Hazard, since he fought (almost lost) to Vergo. Punk hazard Sanji is not the same as Wano Sanji, pre-Onigashima.
We saw how Sanji used a power up that made him invisible, faster, more resilient, and stronger in order to defeat Page One. Unfortunately, we didn't get to see the whole fight and the outcome but it is heavily implied that Sanji won. Although, keep in mind, we have no idea how difficult it was for Sanji to beat Page One. I would go ahead and say it was a mid diff. Therefore, Pre-Onigashima Wano Raid Suit Sanji mid diffs Page One.
This same Sanji would definitely low diff Vergo, a senior VA.
If Oda had wanted to showcase any of the Tobi Roppo as in any case exceptional CoA users, he would have done so. Truth is, he only ever did with a handful, Luffy, Law, Zoro, Kaido, Doflamingo, etc. and Vergo, who already possesed tremendous skill with it many years ago in the flashback.
There is no way pre-Raid suit Sanji low diffs Vergo because the Manga showed entirely otherwise and there just even isn't any time for him to have become stronger. Have you forgotten about WCI? Where are the great Sanji power feats?
Also remember a Pre-Rooftop ACoA Gear 3 Luffy punch wasn't able to injure Page One as much.
Idk why you don't like Page One but you are severely underestimating him.
Lastly, I don't get why you bother bringing up useless non-important characters in this discussion like Jean Argo or Albion or the Funk brothers. Like literally nobody cares where they fall in the story.
Yeah the reason no one cares is why you all have Dragon Ball glasses on and overinflate everything. There is really no sense for the organic world building Oda creates.
Like honestly it's so overinflated nothing makes sense anymore. Anyone is "vastly stronger" than everyone like how can that work?
Wrong. All of the East Blue Villains have inaccurate bounties, except Alvida (fat).
Buggy they don't know he was a Roger Pirate.
Kuro is officially dead.
Arlong bribed the Marines.
And lastly, Krieg lost his huge ass armada shortly after entering the Grand Line. We are presented varios organisations throughout the GL, and Krieg's would have been a massive force, easily warranting a much higher bounty.
Bellamy is like Arlong, but with less brain. Spring Death whatever it was called is essentially like Kuro's cat buckle, more power traded off for uncontrolability. Had he not used it he could maybe have put up a fight. You also have Foxy, who is just 30 something millions put up a better fight than either Arlong or Bellamy.
There is also no evidence that Brook is significantly weaker than Robin or Franky, but Black Maria and Sasaki have both been portrayed as stronger than Page One. Page One is a fat lizard why the defense, I don't get it. I thought it was pretty unquestioned that Page One is the weakest Tobi Roppo.
I don't think there's anything in the manga that serves as a direct comparison between Page One and Sasaki or Black Maria, so you have to take in account their feats
No I am saying that Barto is a tier above Maynard, which the list reflects.
Smoker is about as strong as Vergo, he played him by the fiddle and got what he wanted.
There is also no evidence that Brook is significantly weaker than Robin or Franky, but Black Maria and Sasaki have both been portrayed as stronger than Page One. Page One is a fat lizard why the defense, I don't get it. I thought it was pretty unquestioned that Page One is the weakest Tobi Roppo.
Of course Nami with Zeus can beat Page One.
Chopper, it is a bit conjecture but Monster Point has pretty much implied to be Zoan Awakening, I'd rather place it pretty high.
Naah, I all think this here has Dragon Ball glasses all over.
Monkey D. Luffy is someone that has infiltrated all three Government main facilities, and fucked up two of them in the process, He defeated two Shishibukai and the genius of CP9. You destroy any sense of organic world building by thinking Page One would truly be a threat to this guy.
Luffy Preskip: 400M
Page One: 290M
And you are just shitting on Vergo.
If Oda had wanted to showcase any of the Tobi Roppo as in any case exceptional CoA users, he would have done so. Truth is, he only ever did with a handful, Luffy, Law, Zoro, Kaido, Doflamingo, etc. and Vergo, who already possesed tremendous skill with it many years ago in the flashback.
There is no way pre-Raid suit Sanji low diffs Vergo because the Manga showed entirely otherwise and there just even isn't any time for him to have become stronger. Have you forgotten about WCI? Where are the great Sanji power feats?
Smoker got wrecked by Vergo. There is a distinction between Vergo and Smoker in power level.
Brook is definitely weaker than Franky and Robin. I would place Franky below the Monster trio/quartet. Then after that Robin then Brooks. Given Robin's last performance and how she was able to catch a speedy Hakuba, she could take down Brook. Brook best feat was taking down a Number, but that is really no perfomance feat compared to the rest.
Calling Page One a big fat lizard really shows how much you hate him for whatever reason. The reason I am defending him was because I was calling out the many flaws in your Tier list. Also it doesn't sit right with me on how you portray him weaker than pre timeskip characters.
Luffy invading the WG 3 facilities pre timeskip doesn't necessarily mean he is stronger than other characters who wouldn't dare do so. Luffy was stupid and brave. Luffy's bounty was 300m pre time skip don't get it confused, but also that has nothing to do with his strength over page One's lower bounty.
Luffy got a bounty that high because he invaded Enies Lobby and defeated CP9 Lucci. Page One was still stronger than him at that time. Unless you can show feats that place Pre TS Luffy over Page One.
I am not shitting on Vergo. Vergo put up a great fight versus another VA, and I strongly believe Vergo > Punk Hazard Sanji mid-high diff. Sanji throughout the New world got stronger in each arc. Just like almost every other Straw Hat, they progessively get stronger, not all the time not every arc but usually. I would argue that Pre TS Sanji and Pre TS Zolo, from Fishman Island all the way to Onigashima, Sanji was the one who got stronger through each arc (not stronger than Zolo, just became stronger from his previous self). I say this because it was Sanji who fought more fierce and stronger opponents than himself in each arc and was able to slowly become stronger. Why Zolo didn't really face any challenges from Fishman Island all the way to Onigashima, so there was almost no reason for him to get stronger since he wasn't pushed like Sanji.
So yes Pre-Onigashima Sanji with Raid Suit who fought Page One mid diff, can low diff Vergo by this point. Vergo was once stronger than him but not by the time Sanji reached Wano.
Sanji fought/briefly clashed with Vergo, Doffy, Yonji, Niji, Judge, Luffy, Bobbin, Daifuku, Oven, Big Mom, a few Charlotte pirates, before arriving to Wano
Zolo fought/briefly clashed with Monet, Fujitora, and Pika before arriving to Wano.
Like I said, if you claim that Page One is weaker than Pre Timeskip Luffy, due to having a lower bounty and whatever else reason, then you are essentially claiming Pre TS Luffy, Pre TS Kid/Law, Pre TS Zolo with Shusui > Wano Sanji > Page One.
Is that what you are claiming?
Ah okay we are at a misunderstanding here, With Luffy (gears) I don't mean Luffy in the Gears, I mean Luffy after acquiring the Gears, which he did with offscreen training after the defeat at the hands of Aokiji. Though never clarified, the same is suggested for Zoro and Sanji in this situation.
Start of series Luffy could have low-diffed Bellamy just like Jaya Arc Luffy, as he actually low-diffed anyone sans Crocodile, Satori, Viper Enel and Foxy and the CP9 in the Galley La house. With Satori, they explained not being acclimated weakened them and the next action segments everyone is back to normal, and the same is given with the CP9, their spirits were down. Viper isn't even a villain, Foxy exploited the heck out of Luffy's gullible nature. In truth, this series doesn't have this underdog character climbing up, the main character hits like a train from the start and quickly becomes a legendary pirate analogous to his first power up in Water 7 saga.
Actual example:
Each energy steroid makes someone 2 times stronger... Hody Jones took 4 pills, making him 16 times stronger.
Assuming he was around the level of his idol Arlong before, the pills made him worth 320 million. That seems coherent.
Of course you can't take bounties too seriously. Urouge was fighting Kid in Sabaody, despite having a smaller bounty.
But you shouldn't ignore it either. You shouldn't think Arlong could put the same fight against Luffy now that he has a bounty of 100 or 300 million.
I don't ignore it. My list is very coherent in that aspect.
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"Page One is a fat lizard"
That's one weird argument
Sasaki is a fatter lizard, so Page One > Sasaki?
I don't think there's anything in the manga that serves as a direct comparison between Page One and Sasaki or Black Maria, so you have to take in account their feats
Sasaki is a Triceracopter with a Drill Sword. Page One has nothing. Not even a cannon like attack Drake has. Not even any particularly special Haki. He is a fat lizard.
They have bounties, and Sasaki's is alot higher. Sure Page One is younger but it should be assumed he achieved his bounty analogous to his sister, who is at 400M and has much better feats than him, like getting up after an elite attack from Big Mom.
During the initial meet up of the Tobi Roppo, Page One is mocked for not being able to cut it, indicating he is the weakest of the group. Indeed at 290M his bounty falls off, too, with the exception of Drake's who isn't even a pirate and is the only Supernova to not receive a bounty increase after the timeskip.
He has been shown as somewhat clumsy and doesn't manage to take out anyone after a long chase, then he gets trolled hard by Big Mom. The entire protrayal is somewhat cartoonish, especially considering the nature of the character as a fat crocodilish lizard. Like when he clungs onto the Koma Inu and they hit him in the head with their weapons in meele, and sure it doesn't affect him, but it certainly looked dumb.
You'll have to read that fight again. Vergo even asks "lol why you not dodge", and later it is revealed, Smoker intended to win Law's heart back, in which he succeeded.
Calling Page One a big fat lizard really shows how much you hate him for whatever reason. The reason I am defending him was because I was calling out the many flaws in your Tier list. Also it doesn't sit right with me on how you portray him weaker than pre timeskip characters.
Just like almost every other Straw Hat, they progessively get stronger, not all the time not every arc but usually. I would argue that Pre TS Sanji and Pre TS Zolo, from Fishman Island all the way to Onigashima, Sanji was the one who got stronger through each arc (not stronger than Zolo, just became stronger from his previous self). I say this because it was Sanji who fought more fierce and stronger opponents than himself in each arc and was able to slowly become stronger. Why Zolo didn't really face any challenges from Fishman Island all the way to Onigashima, so there was almost no reason for him to get stronger since he wasn't pushed like Sanji.
This is all headcanon. It's wild imagination from Dragon Ball logic that neither fits the plot nor the world building.
So yes Pre-Onigashima Sanji with Raid Suit who fought Page One mid diff, can low diff Vergo by this point. Vergo was once stronger than him but not by the time Sanji reached Wano.
Sanji fought/briefly clashed with Vergo, Doffy, Yonji, Niji, Judge, Luffy, Bobbin, Daifuku, Oven, Big Mom, a few Charlotte pirates, before arriving to Wano
And everyone sans Fujitora turned into bread slices.
Like I said, if you claim that Page One is weaker than Pre Timeskip Luffy, due to having a lower bounty and whatever else reason, then you are essentially claiming Pre TS Luffy, Pre TS Kid/Law, Pre TS Zolo with Shusui > Wano Sanji > Page One.
Is that what you are claiming?
Ah okay we are at a misunderstanding here, With Luffy (gears) I don't mean Luffy in the Gears, I mean Luffy after acquiring the Gears, which he did with offscreen training after the defeat at the hands of Aokiji. Though never clarified, the same is suggested for Zoro and Sanji in this situation.
Start of series Luffy could have low-diffed Bellamy just like Jaya Arc Luffy, as he actually low-diffed anyone sans Crocodile, Satori, Viper Enel and Foxy and the CP9 in the Galley La house. With Satori, they explained not being acclimated weakened them and the next action segments everyone is back to normal, and the same is given with the CP9, their spirits were down. Viper isn't even a villain, Foxy exploited the heck out of Luffy's gullible nature. In truth, this series doesn't have this underdog character climbing up, the main character hits like a train from the start and quickly becomes a legendary pirate analogous to his first power up in Water 7 saga.
I don't ignore it. My list is very coherent in that aspect.
Sasaki is a Triceracopter with a Drill Sword. Page One has nothing. Not even a cannon like attack Drake has. Not even any particularly special Haki. He is a fat lizard.
They have bounties, and Sasaki's is alot higher. Sure Page One is younger but it should be assumed he achieved his bounty analogous to his sister, who is at 400M and has much better feats than him, like getting up after an elite attack from Big Mom.
During the initial meet up of the Tobi Roppo, Page One is mocked for not being able to cut it, indicating he is the weakest of the group. Indeed at 290M his bounty falls off, too, with the exception of Drake's who isn't even a pirate and is the only Supernova to not receive a bounty increase after the timeskip.
He has been shown as somewhat clumsy and doesn't manage to take out anyone after a long chase, then he gets trolled hard by Big Mom. The entire protrayal is somewhat cartoonish, especially considering the nature of the character as a fat crocodilish lizard. Like when he clungs onto the Koma Inu and they hit him in the head with their weapons in meele, and sure it doesn't affect him, but it certainly looked dumb.
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You'll have to read that fight again. Vergo even asks "lol why you not dodge", and later it is revealed, Smoker intended to win Law's heart back, in which he succeeded.
Okay, then I call him a tiny anorexic squirrell...
...clearly he is a big fat lizard!
Or sauropsid if you want to use modern biological terms but these haven't entered people's everyday vocabulary yet.
Yeah but it definitely means he is stronger than Page One.
Vergo eats post skip Sanji for breakfast. If you break the leg of someone who fights with the legs, that's game over.
This is all headcanon. It's wild imagination from Dragon Ball logic that neither fits the plot nor the world building.
Vergo>>>Page One lol no question.
And typically was overpowered.
And everyone sans Fujitora turned into bread slices.
No, I am not. Have you read the list or my argumentation?
Insulting Page One literally shows how much you hate him LOL. Why the hate?
So you're claiming that because Pre TS Luffy trespassed 3 WG facilities of the most guarded, he is stronger than Page One? Then that automatically makes Pre TS Luffy stronger than 90% of the OP World. LMAO. This is why I can't take you seriously anymore.
Yeah I am not denying Vergo > Punk hazard Sanji. But I am saying Pre-Onigashima Raid Suit Sanji > Page One > Vergo.
You are aware that Oda got inspiration from Dragon ball, so if you see some DB plot elements, especially in power levels, its because the author wanted it that way.
Even Zolo mentioned in the pre timeskip, I think before heading to Enies Lobby, that everybody (in the crew) got progressively stronger as they ventured from island to island, so no it is not head cannon. Common shonen logic will tell you that main characters/crew get stronger with each passing arc/villain/fight.
Page One high diffs Vergo.
Yes you're confusing, out of wack, list places the "big fat lizard" under Pre Timeskip characters such as Pre TS Zolo with Shusui. Then you yourself confirmed that.
So yes you are making unbelievable claims with no substantial evidence from the manga that Pre TS Luffy > Page One.
I feel like I am arguing with Nik or Moe over here. Making no sense whatsoever.
