One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[john ellis]

I personally disagree. I don't think any gear is an upgrade of another. I think each gear has it's pro/cons which make them all usable depending on the situation. That's why even post G4 Luffy still continues to use G2 and G3. And now even though Luffy has G5 its highly likely he will still use G2, G3, and G4 in his fights. Can you imagine Luffy not using attacks like Jet Pistol, Jet Gattling, or Elephant Gun, Thor Hammer or Kong Gun, Black Mamba for the rest of the story?

His awakening is certainly a strict upgrade in every sense. And gear 4 is certainly an upgrade to g2/g3 speed and power. His g5 is on a totally different level. His speed and power are greatly stronger then g2 and g3 directly

 

[DeadlyBeast]

His awakening is certainly a strict upgrade in every sense. And gear 4 is certainly an upgrade to g2/g3 speed and power. His g5 is on a totally different level. His speed and power are greatly stronger then g2 and g3 directly

It's not a strict upgrade if the energy consumption of awakening is far higher than energy consumption of G2/G3. This means in long drawn out battles Luffy will likely use lower gears for a big duration of the battle and only activate G5 in the endgame of the fight (similar to G4). Each gear offers advantages over other gears in some respect which is one of the great things of this power system since it rationally makes sense why Luffy would use all of them into the end of the manga.

This isn't DB where a higher super saiyan level generally is just better in all regards and once mastered also can be used in a long battle. For example in DB Goku uses lower level SS transformations like SS1, SS2 purely because he likes the challenge and not because it makes sense to use in a battle since SSG by default is stronger than all of those forms and also doesn't have energy drain. Now even SSGSS (SSB) is something he can use long term and UI is the form that has the energy drawbacks.

 

[kkck]

To me it's a stretch that gears are upgrades to one another. Post timeskip each gear still brings value but the reality is that earlier gears have become increasingly obsolete.

Post timeskip gear 2 provides luffy with a significant speed and power boost while gear 3 provide a bigger power boost. The main utility of these post timeskip is that luffy has become accustomed to them and the drawbacks to them are non existent. He can use them at will with essentially no preparation. luffy can use these gears so casually they have pretty much become part of his base form.

Gear 4 is significantly faster than gear 2 and most likely also more powerful than gear 3. But it has a significant drawback in haki overconsumption as the form requires haki to keep it active. Luffy also has snakeman which trades power for even more speed.

Then luffy's awakening has the following powers:

1.- He can control his body freely by merely wishing it.
2.- He can turn his environment into rubber.
3.- For lack of a better word, he gets straight up cartoon powers. Even his enemies can be subjected to cartoon physics.

With the first mentioned power luffy can do everything his other gears could with almost no drawbacks. It encompasses and far surpasses all his previous gears. I would also argue that g5 also doesn't have the biggest drawback of gear 4 which is haki overconsumption. Gear 4 requires haki to constantly coat his body and has a role in how luffy manipulates his body for some techniques. Even during his fight with kaido luffy risked overusing and running out of haki. Gear 5 is luffy's awakening, an innate ability of his fruit, it doesn't require haki to activate and sustain it. The current drawback luffy's awakening has is that it seemingly drains his stamina but as we have seen from other awakening users this apparently is a common drawback for people who only recently acquired it (kid and law were also drained by it) but there's evidence that over time you can adjust to it and even use it casually (doflamingo, katakuri for instance).


With all these in mind, I just don't see how gears are upgrades to one another. Gear 4 can mostly do the stuff G2 and G3 could do except better. We even see that luffy is able to supplement his his 4 techniques with inflated bones at times (IIRC the technique he used to beat doflamingo was like that). G5 in turn simply does everything and once luffy adjusts to his awakening he mostly won't even have stamina issues. Post timeskip the utility of G2 and G3 was that luffy got rid of their drawbacks but gear 4 mostly made them obsolete. Gear 5 in turn makes gear 4 obsolete though luffy could still see some utility depending on whether he wants to drain his haki (still probably a thing with gear 4) or stamina.

 

[john ellis]

To me it's a stretch that gears are upgrades to one another. Post timeskip each gear still brings value but the reality is that earlier gears have become increasingly obsolete.

Post timeskip gear 2 provides luffy with a significant speed and power boost while gear 3 provide a bigger power boost. The main utility of these post timeskip is that luffy has become accustomed to them and the drawbacks to them are non existent. He can use them at will with essentially no preparation. luffy can use these gears so casually they have pretty much become part of his base form.

Gear 4 is significantly faster than gear 2 and most likely also more powerful than gear 3. But it has a significant drawback in haki overconsumption as the form requires haki to keep it active. Luffy also has snakeman which trades power for even more speed.

Then luffy's awakening has the following powers:

1.- He can control his body freely by merely wishing it.
2.- He can turn his environment into rubber.
3.- For lack of a better word, he gets straight up cartoon powers. Even his enemies can be subjected to cartoon physics.

With the first mentioned power luffy can do everything his other gears could with almost no drawbacks. It encompasses and far surpasses all his previous gears. I would also argue that g5 also doesn't have the biggest drawback of gear 4 which is haki overconsumption. Gear 4 requires haki to constantly coat his body and has a role in how luffy manipulates his body for some techniques. Even during his fight with kaido luffy risked overusing and running out of haki. Gear 5 is luffy's awakening, an innate ability of his fruit, it doesn't require haki to activate and sustain it. The current drawback luffy's awakening has is that it seemingly drains his stamina but as we have seen from other awakening users this apparently is a common drawback for people who only recently acquired it (kid and law were also drained by it) but there's evidence that over time you can adjust to it and even use it casually (doflamingo, katakuri for instance).


With all these in mind, I just don't see how gears are upgrades to one another. Gear 4 can mostly do the stuff G2 and G3 could do except better. We even see that luffy is able to supplement his his 4 techniques with inflated bones at times (IIRC the technique he used to beat doflamingo was like that). G5 in turn simply does everything and once luffy adjusts to his awakening he mostly won't even have stamina issues. Post timeskip the utility of G2 and G3 was that luffy got rid of their drawbacks but gear 4 mostly made them obsolete. Gear 5 in turn makes gear 4 obsolete though luffy could still see some utility depending on whether he wants to drain his haki (still probably a thing with gear 4) or stamina.

For reference g2, and g3 are not upgrades on each other just different ways luffy can use powers, g2 is focused on speed and g3 is focused on power. G4 is a clear upgrade on both g2, g3 because it’s faster and more powerful.

It doesn’t matter the energy requirements to sustain the upgrade a nuke is clearly an upgraded version of a regular bomb. Even if it require more resources to make you would always choose a nuke if you could.
Upgrades usually don’t factor in the cost. New computers require more advanced and harder to make technology but no1 would say a 2020 computer isn’t a direct upgrade of a 1980 computer.

The same is true for g5, the notion of energy requirements of g2 and g3 being less doesn’t carry with how most people view upgrades. They only care about function. And g2/g3 functions have been made obsolete by the later gears. G2 was not made invalid by g3 because it was a different power system. But g4 directly upgraded g2. @DeadlyBeast

 

[DeadlyBeast]

@john ellis It's not an upgrade just because a certain gear is faster/stronger if there are drawbacks that mean its use is limited. I expect we will continue to see Luffy using G2, G3, and G4 techniques in the story even though he has G5 now which technically has all of the abilities in one + more, purely because of its drawbacks.

Heck even using your bomb example, guess what an Antimatter bomb would be better than a nuclear bomb, yet no government is spending time building them. Why? Because the amount of money/time it would take is not worth it compared to just building thousands of nukes.

To me all the different gears are compliments of each other. They each have their own advantages and disadvantages but by using them all and switching between them based on situation Luffy is able to maximize his combat abilities.

 

[john ellis]

@john ellis It's not an upgrade just because a certain gear is faster/stronger if there are drawbacks that mean its use is limited. I expect we will continue to see Luffy using G2, G3, and G4 techniques in the story even though he has G5 now which technically has all of the abilities in one + more, purely because of its drawbacks.

Heck even using your bomb example, guess what an Antimatter bomb would be better than a nuclear bomb, yet no government is spending time building them. Why? Because the amount of money/time it would take is not worth it compared to just building thousands of nukes.

To me all the different gears are compliments of each other. They each have their own advantages and disadvantages but by using them all and switching between them based on situation Luffy is able to maximize his combat abilities.

All modern technology uses more resources and is harder to make than precious technology yet people always “upgrade” their technology despite the costs. Also it’s literally called an upgrade when you buy a new superior model. The additional costs are rarely factored in.

@DeadlyBeast and yes the miltrary would built an antimatter bomb if it was possible. The first nuke costed 24 billion, the world spends trillions of weapons per year. Of course they would use antimatter bombs it was feasible. It’s just impossible under current science to sustain and produce such large amount of antimatter and have to stabilized to make a bomb out of. Likewise luffy would have used g5 to save ace if it was possible. Also g5 luffy and whitebeard would have stalled the wg for shanks to show up. Or would have defeated them outright

tl’dr upgrades always come at a cost no upgrade is free. Yet despite the draw backs extra cost, more download requirements they’re still considered upgrades because they benefit you in some degree. G4 and g5 are direct upgradez

 

[korwinkrulpolski]

@john ellis It's not an upgrade just because a certain gear is faster/stronger if there are drawbacks that mean its use is limited. I expect we will continue to see Luffy using G2, G3, and G4 techniques in the story even though he has G5 now which technically has all of the abilities in one + more, purely because of its drawbacks.

Heck even using your bomb example, guess what an Antimatter bomb would be better than a nuclear bomb, yet no government is spending time building them. Why? Because the amount of money/time it would take is not worth it compared to just building thousands of nukes.

To me all the different gears are compliments of each other. They each have their own advantages and disadvantages but by using them all and switching between them based on situation Luffy is able to maximize his combat abilities.

But Oda is inconsistent. The greatest example of usage of G5 as of yet was when Luffy was fighting Kaido and activated it half-dead, supposedly without haki, unable ot use any other gear. And he was able to pump up G5 just on a whim by making his heart beat in drum of liberation manner. I think that right now we don't know enough to tell if G5 is as draining as it is. After fight with Lucci he was able to fight again soon afterwards. Too many things are unclear. Maybe Zoan awakening isn't as draining as paramecia... and paramecia's cases are uneven, because Doffy or Katakuri were using awakening with no fatigue whatsoever while Kidd and Law were able to do it only for a short while.

Beside that there's no evidence to tell "G5 isn't an upgrade" because it is, Luffy said so himself, only the drainage factor can make it into something not so upgrading but we don't know enough about it yet.

 

[LadyVados]

If Zoro masters AdCoC will he be Yonko level ? Or will he need FS as well ?

 

[Fox666]

If Zoro masters AdCoC will he be Yonko level ? Or will he need FS as well ?

Neither of these makes you Yonko-level.

Luffy was already pushing to that level before, ACoC and Gear 5 were only the final push.

Katakuri could use future sight, but was only commander-level. Zoro can use ACoC, but is clearly commander level.

And if Shilliew is meant to be Zoro's next opponent, he doesn't appear to be Yonko-level either.

 

[LadyVados]

Neither of these makes you Yonko-level.

Luffy was already pushing to that level before, ACoC and Gear 2 were only the final push.

Katakuri could use future sight, but was only commander-level. Zoro can use ACoC, but is clearly commander level.

And if Shilliew is meant to be Zoro's next opponent, he doesn't appear to be Yonko-level either.

Saying Post-Onigashima Luffy was pushing Yonko level is a stretch.

He was like YC1 tier.

He was a borderline YC1 tier after WCI (beats every YC2 but loses to every YC1) and Onigashima training made him a solid YC1 tier.

Unlocking AdCoC made him a YC+

Mastering it made him Low Yonko Level

And then G5 made him Mid Yonko Level

 

[Pirate Queen]

The only reason Luffy doesn't look Yonko level by the end of Udon is because Kaido was his opponent and not Big Mom. He only needed ACoC because Kaido is a tank. You don't need ACoC to hurt Big Mom. Internal damage would ha mve done just fine. Not that it would have been a walk in a park but he wouldn't have needed G5.

He was low tier Yonko Level or at least above all distinguished YC1's without ACoC and G5

 

[XXGenesis]

Holy ****!!!.
G5 vs Kaido animated just changed my opinion about G5 soooooo much. Wow! Never had an anime episode changed my perspective on a manga chapter this much.

G5 is str8 . Yo I really disliked G5 sooo much; But damn I think this may be hands down Best Anime rendition of a chapter ever!

G5 Luffy isn’t losing, the abilities of Nika Nika Fruit are broken! Only Black Beard is going to be able to counter but he’s gonna get dusted by Luffy’s Haki.

 

[kkck]

The only reason Luffy doesn't look Yonko level by the end of Udon is because Kaido was his opponent and not Big Mom. He only needed ACoC because Kaido is a tank. You don't need ACoC to hurt Big Mom. Internal damage would ha mve done just fine. Not that it would have been a walk in a park but he wouldn't have needed G5.

He was low tier Yonko Level or at least above all distinguished YC1's without ACoC and G5

There's no reason to think just internal damage would have done the trick against big mom. Big mom is consistently described as nigh invulnerable, a steel ball. The entire plan to assassinate her at WCI revolved around multiple pirate crews including luffy being utterly unable to do a thing to her. Big mom's invulnerability was every bit as good as kaidos as far as the manga is concerned.

 

[Pirate Queen]

There's no reason to think just internal damage would have done the trick against big mom. Big mom is consistently described as nigh invulnerable, a steel ball. The entire plan to assassinate her at WCI revolved around multiple pirate crews including luffy being utterly unable to do a thing to her. Big mom's invulnerability was every bit as good as kaidos as far as the manga is concerned.

Law's attacks were internal damage. They would most certainly effect her.

Luffy with Ryou hits just as hard or harder than Kid during his fight with Big Mom

And Big m9ms was not as good as kaido. You 100% needed CoC to deal lasting damage to Kaido. Law and Kid were hurting Big Mom without ACoC. Unless you want to to say Luffy with ACoC hits as hard as Kidd without ACoC.

In the end what set them apart was that Kaido could take as much of a beating for much longer period of time.

 

[kkck]

Law's attacks were internal damage. They would most certainly effect her.

Luffy with Ryou hits just as hard or harder than Kid during his fight with Big Mom

And Big m9ms was not as good as kaido. You 100% needed CoC to deal lasting damage to Kaido. Law and Kid were hurting Big Mom without ACoC. Unless you want to to say Luffy with ACoC hits as hard as Kidf without AVoC

Law has the advantage here of his techniques being BS, his techniques were just as effective on kaido as on big mom (like gamma knife). Kidd was not in as favorable a position in that regard but his awakening dealt substantial damage even though kid does not evidence the capacity for advanced applications of armor or conqueror haki.

It's pretty clear that no one at wano was strong enough to hurt big mom or kaido with merely haki projection, even luffy needed internal damage to have some effect on kaido. Nothing in the story evidences kaido being more invulnerable than big mom. Even he was equally vulnerable as big mom to law's attacks.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Law has the advantage here of his techniques being BS, his techniques were just as effective on kaido as on big mom (like gamma knife). Kidd was not in as favorable a position in that regard but his awakening dealt substantial damage even though kid does not evidence the capacity for advanced applications of armor or conqueror haki.

It's pretty clear that no one at wano was strong enough to hurt big mom or kaido with merely haki projection, even luffy needed internal damage to have some effect on kaido. Nothing in the story evidences kaido being more invulnerable than big mom. Even he was equally vulnerable as big mom to law's attacks.

I don't think you last point matters but can understand if you disagree.

My point is simply the likes of Kidd and Law did not need ACoC to hurt Big Mom. That is a fact so how was she hurt?

Law=internal damage
Kidd=highest level blunt damage

Luffy has BOTH of those factors in his fighting style.

And to be clear I am not saying Luffy beats Big Mom without ACoC or G5 only that he would be a comparable fighter and that battle would at least distinguish his as a Yonko Level fighter. The weakest, but yonko level all the same.

 

[Fox666]

I don't think you last point matters but can understand if you disagree.

My point is simply the likes of Kidd and Law did not need ACoC to hurt Big Mom. That is a fact so how was she hurt?

Law=internal damage
Kidd=highest level blunt damage

Luffy has BOTH of those factors in his fighting style.

And to be clear I am not saying Luffy beats Big Mom without ACoC or G5 only that he would be a comparable fighter and that battle would at least distinguish his as a Yonko Level fighter. The weakest, but yonko level all the same.

I don't think they are comparable.

Luffy's blunt damage is waaay higher than Kidd, and that's not even including his giant fist

But Law phases his sword through Big Mom's body, then releases a shockwave. You can't have more internal damage than that.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I don't think they are comparable.

Luffy's blunt damage is waaay higher than Kidd, and that's not even including his giant fist

But Law phases his sword through Big Mom's body, then releases a shockwave. You can't have more internal damage than that.

True and I'm certainly not saying Luffy's internal damage is equal to Law's. That would be silly, only that Big Mom to be hurt by non ACoC of Post Udon Luffy's level.

 

[catagon87]

True and I'm certainly not saying Luffy's internal damage is equal to Law's. That would be silly, only that Big Mom to be hurt by non ACoC of Post Udon Luffy's level.

IDK that internal damage to Kaido in G5 was pretty sick.

I bet Luffy can go Ant-Man on his opponents with G5.

 

[albertwv]

Gear 5 is somehow hard to gauge in terms of speed and attack power. Obviously its a power up since it helped take down Kaido, especially with Bajrang gun and seemingly being immune to Kaido's attacks?
Idk, it seem when Kaido attacked Gear 5 and the club shaped Luffy's head/face, It gave me the sense that it did not particularly hurt Luffy.
Does Gear 5 give Luffy a better defense than his previous forms due to the cartoon/rubber properties. Does his speed increase? Does his attack power increase.
Could Luffy have done Bagrang Gun without Gear 5, because too me it seemed like it was an Extra Large King Kong Gun.