One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[kkck]

Gear 5 is somehow hard to gauge in terms of speed and attack power. Obviously its a power up since it helped take down Kaido, especially with Bajrang gun and seemingly being immune to Kaido's attacks?
Idk, it seem when Kaido attacked Gear 5 and the club shaped Luffy's head/face, It gave me the sense that it did not particularly hurt Luffy.
Does Gear 5 give Luffy a better defense than his previous forms due to the cartoon/rubber properties. Does his speed increase? Does his attack power increase.
Could Luffy have done Bagrang Gun without Gear 5, because too me it seemed like it was an Extra Large King Kong Gun.

I think the key issue here is that gear 5 allows luffy complete freedom to control his body. He can expand and contract at will without using haki to sustain a given form or movement like he does with gear 4. So on the different points you mention:

1.- Defense: I wouldn't say his defense increases but rather he can adjust his body to minimize damage. Sort of like an extreme kami-e. Sort of like minimizing his body's resistance to minimize the impact. Which is why his body perfectly contorted around kaido's attacks. I don't think this entirely neutralizes damage but it's better than taking it head on. That said, I don't rule out luffy can go the other way and harden his body to absurd levels. I do think this doesn't exactly fit with the cartoon theme but it might fit with rubber...

2.- Speed: Increases by a fair bit. Since he has freedom to manipulate his body however he wants he can simply change it to optimize movement. Add cartoon physics and you also have improved flight and overall maneuverability. The mechanics of gear two are fully available to him and he can potentially alter his body to snakeman like shapes to become faster.

3.- Power. Definitely increases by a lot. We saw a few instances of luffy simply willing himself to be more muscular. let alone the ease with which he becomes a giant. Luffy doesn't even need to pump himself full of air at this point, he can simply will himself to become bigger. Since he can will himself to be bigger odds are that this applies to both his bones and muscles. Essentially he has at least the combined power of his enlarged muscles and bones. Against doflamingo he used an attack that used both enlarged muscles and bones but that required him to pump his muscles full of air while in gear 4.

I would also maintain that a key point that makes gear 5 work is that luffy can simply alter his body without the need to use haki to sustain a form or alter his own characteristics. So the haki he needed to maintain his gear 4 forms is now available for other things.

 

[LadyVados]

I don't think you last point matters but can understand if you disagree.

My point is simply the likes of Kidd and Law did not need ACoC to hurt Big Mom. That is a fact so how was she hurt?

Law=internal damage
Kidd=highest level blunt damage

Luffy has BOTH of those factors in his fighting style.

And to be clear I am not saying Luffy beats Big Mom without ACoC or G5 only that he would be a comparable fighter and that battle would at least distinguish his as a Yonko Level fighter. The weakest, but yonko level all the same.

His 1v1 performance against Kaido even with AdCoC was pretty bad. Definitely not enough to be considered admiral level. Any admiral is giving a Yonko a much better fight than that.

He was solid YC1 before AdCoC and around Yamato/Law level after getting it.

If Rooftop Luffy were to use Snakeman and FS he could dance around her for a bit and make her look bad but she won’t take any real damage and Katakuri or King could probably do the same.

 

[BlackTiger]

Rereading Fishman Island arc, base Luffy should be faster than base Zoro.

Hyouzo poisoned Luffy because Luffy hit 3 times. He hit Hammons first, then Kagasoba (right of Hammond) then he hit Hyouzo last (left of Hammond).

Anime confirmed it. Luffy's main target was Hammond so Hammond was hit first. Then Luffy pulled his arm back to punch Kagasoba was (right of Hammond) then finally Luffy pulled back his arm again to punch Hyouzo (left of Hammond). Hyouzo could react because Luffy hit him last which gave him the time to react and poison Luffy.

Spoiler

Though Zoro beat Hody underwater (Hody power level was doubled)

Kuroobi mentioned Sanji power was halved underwater so fishmen power could be doubled underwater.

Spoiler

Energy steroid doubles the user power.

Spoiler

Hody ate multiple energy steroids after Zoro wounded him.

Hody ate 1 energy steroid boosting his power by 2 times

Spoiler

Another energy steroids consumption

Spoiler

If he took 5 pills, with multiplier Hody power level should be multiplied 2^5 so Hody was 32 times faster compared to base Hody. This is base Luffy blitzing a much faster Hody than the Hody that Zoro fought who was only 2 times faster due to underwater boost.

Spoiler

Later on Luffy fought Hody underwater who got even faster after he consumed even more energy steroids.

Spoiler

Hody might be even 1000 times faster after multiple energy steroid he consumed moreover he was underwater too yet Luffy was still capable to dodge him and land Elephant Gun.

Spoiler

And this Luffy was nerfed

Spoiler

Base Luffy is very underrated.

 

[albertwv]

The question is now, will Luffy's Gear 5 have other transformations or be coated with haki like G4 was? Imagine an Awakened Nika Gear 2 or even Gear 4 Nika Basically Gear 2 Luffy in Awakened form (Gear 5).
How I see it Luffy just became Super Saiyan base form or for the DBS fans, Super Saiyan God. So then can there be a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan (Blue Hair) version of Gear 5 Luffy?
Luffy has yet to master Gear 5, so there will be an upgrade version of it, obviously.

I did not like how Oda decided to quickly show off Gear 5 in the fight versus Rob Lucci. It made no sense honestly besides for Punk's explanation of DF's and to show off Awakened vs Awakened. I want to say Gear 4 would have been enough to take down Awakened Lucci by itself, even then I think it would be pushing it. Maybe just gear 2.

 

[Fox666]

Rereading Fishman Island arc, base Luffy should be faster than base Zoro.

Huh?

Luffy has always been the strongest of his crew, even without Gear 4.

And Zoro isn't particularly the fast type.

Hody might be even 1000 times faster after multiple energy steroid he consumed moreover he was underwater too yet Luffy was still capable to dodge him and land Elephant Gun.

Reading it again, Hody Jones was taking them every other minute to reduce the pain from Zoro's slash, but the energy steroids effect was temporary, so only the most recent ones were in effect.

 

[BlackTiger]

Huh?

Luffy has always been the strongest of his crew, even without Gear 4.

And Zoro isn't particularly the fast type.


Reading it again, Hody Jones was taking them every other minute to reduce the pain from Zoro's slash, but the energy steroids effect was temporary, so only the most recent ones were in effect.

Hody was rolling on the ground due to energy steroids he consumed.

Spoiler

Ikaros was worried about Hody condition.

Spoiler

Then later Ikaros mentioned Hody who was rolling on the ground earlier (consuming energy steroids after Zoro wounded him). Zeo asked how did Hody feel. Hody said perfect which implied that he was in perfect condition after energy steroids that he consumed that caused him to roll on the ground (because of Zoro). These panels are also few minutes before base Luffy met Hody and slammed him. So the effect of energy steroids was still in effect by the time Luffy and his crews met Hody.

Spoiler

 

[Franckie]

Gear 5 is somehow hard to gauge in terms of speed and attack power. Obviously its a power up since it helped take down Kaido, especially with Bajrang gun and seemingly being immune to Kaido's attacks?
Idk, it seem when Kaido attacked Gear 5 and the club shaped Luffy's head/face, It gave me the sense that it did not particularly hurt Luffy.
Does Gear 5 give Luffy a better defense than his previous forms due to the cartoon/rubber properties. Does his speed increase? Does his attack power increase.
Could Luffy have done Bagrang Gun without Gear 5, because too me it seemed like it was an Extra Large King Kong Gun.

Luffy gains greater physical strength in G5, which he also stated allowed him to do the pinnacle of what he can do. A faster recovery rate is given to Awakened Zoan users, allowing them to recover from injuries more quickly. This allowed Luffy to quickly recover mid-battle after being fully scorched by Kaidou's Bolo Breath. Also, the more he laughs, the stronger he gets.

 

[BlackTiger]

Did Kaido get powercliffed?

Kidd with awakening and Killer lost to Shanks.
Kidd and Law beat Big Mom.
Kidd without awakening stalemated Big Mom until Law came to help Kidd.
Big Mom stalemated Kaido for 3 days.

So Shanks>>>>Big Mom<Kaido which goes against the manga or power creep does not exist.

Shanks speed is also not as impressive as I thought. Killer reacted to it.

Kaido who had better CoO than Killer cannot react to Snakeman.

WCI Snakeman is faster than Shanks.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 17, 2023, Original Post Date: Aug 17, 2023 ---

Spoiler

@kkck

Just the fact that big mom treated katakuri as his character deserves, lower than garbage,

You better stop misinterpreting the manga. Actual translation implies Big Mom was insecure because she looked like a garbage compared to Katakuri in WCI.

Spoiler

Rayleigh placed Katakuri among the mightiest together with Shanks and Kaido (confirmed FS users). Bege placed Katakuri over Big Mom in term of threat in tea party.

while treating marco with actual respect speaks volumes.

Actually she called Marco a slave.

Big Mom said the remnant of WBP lost their way to which Marco corrected her by saying we (WBP) are not bounded by pops will which means Marco helped SHP because of his own will not because of what WB told him aka a slave. When BM said she thought Marco was better than this, she was actually saying that she thought Marco was better than a slave.

Spoiler

Jozu held out against aokiji until he got distracted (rookie mistake but still). Vista held his own against mihawk, who today is basically a yonko. Aramaki pretty much waltz into udon and owned everyone there. Which is fucking impressive even if kaido's lieuthenants weren't fully recovered.

Luffy held out against Fujitora. Bruised him and tanked his Raging Tiger which Fujitora used on Sabo.

Crocodile held out Mihawk. Crocodile in MF was portrayed equal to Doflamingo who was weaker and still weaker than Katakuri.

Post TS Crocodile who was equal to Doflamingo was portrayed as YC1 in Cross Guild which makes Katakuri YC1+.

Marco cannot even damage Queen the weakest YC2. All he could do was surface level damage. Queen was not even forced to use any Germa attacks and his hybrid form.

You better stop underestimating the only YC1 beside Benn Beckman who has portrayals over a warlord (Doflamingo). The better feats Crocodile show, the better Doflamingo looks which hypes Sweet Commanders even more.

You also forgot that Cracker was fighting Aokiji and Van Augur. Jozu got 1 shot by Aokiji the moment Jozu was distracted. Cracker was also still injured. It's only 1 day since Cracker fought Luffy.

kaido did seem to be even friends with king.

Kaido calling Jack strong does not help Jack portrayal from being portrayed in the same tier as Perospero who is weaker than Snack

With King we see where he stands due to his fight alongside queen against marco. Marco even pushed back king through his defense mode which right now seems insane.

Marco might not be stronger than even Queen tbh. They look like in the same tier. Marco cannot damage Queen. There is no difference in damage on Queen before he fought Sanji and when he started his fight with Sanji. Marco cannot force Queen to use his hybrid and any Germa attacks. All attacks Marco did on Queen was when Queen was distracted. First was by Hyogoro (Phoenix Brand attack), second when Queen came out of the rubble (talon attack he took) and third by Chopper (Marco holding Queen's neck).

@grey matter

Marco got feats against Kizaru, an admiral. Was seen as a potential Yonko candidate by Gorosei.
Marco fought BM for almost the same duration of scabbards vs Kaido (it was mostly offscreen), had BM admit that she would need to put actual effort to deal with him and can't afford to waste energy/souls on him.
He then went onto spend energy healing the entire floor, and then was on offensive against both King and Queen in the duration of rooftop fight.

To suggest these guys are in same tier as Katakuri......what is this?
Current Sanji honestly beats Katakuri, forget Zoro.

Luffy got feats against Fujitora. Crocodile had feats against Mihawk. Crocodile=Doflamingo in MF. Both Dressrosa Luffy and Doflamingo<Katakuri.

Marco vs Big Mom is not different than Brook vs Big Mom. Brook also was fighting Big Mom for 5 chapters. Longer than Marco who was fighting Big Mom for 4 chapters.

Brook if his df can counter his opponent->Damaged Prometheus, tanked Big Mom attack.
Brook if his df cannot counter his opponent->Almost lost to Sheepshead

Marco if his df can counter his opponent->Damaged Prometheus.
Marco if his df cannot counter his opponent->Can only deal surface level damage to Queen. Cannot force Queen to force hybrid or germa attacks.

Marco's feats against Big Mom is not a representation of his power level since his df cannot counter all of his opponents. It's not different than Luffy vs Enel who stomped Zoro. In the end Luffy>Zoro not Luffy>>>>Zoro just because Luffy beat Enel.

Current Sanji still has more chances to beat Marco via his performance against Queen than beating Katakuri.

Now look at what King did to rooftop Zoro.

This is no different than saying look at what a weaker yonko Shanks did to awakened Kidd who while not in awakening, went toe to toe with Big Mom who stalemated Kaido for 3 days.

You might as well say Shanks>>>>Big Mom<Kaido which contradicts the manga since Kaido fought Shanks and still said only Joy Boy could beat him which means Kaido did not think Shanks could beat him which debunks the notion that Shanks is stronger than Kaido. Zoro having feats against Kaido does not put him above WCI Snakeman Luffy. Damaging Kaido does not mean rooftop Zoro has speed and CoO to counter Snakeman. At best WCI Snakeman and rooftop Zoro are on the same tier.

No matter how embarrassing act 1 Luffy was, it's not as embarrassing as Kidd vs Shanks or King and Queen vs greenbull
-Act 1 Luffy was fighting Kaido solo. Kidd got Killer to protect him. King got Queen and other BP help.
-Act 1 Luffy fought Kaido for 30 minutes. Kidd lost in less than 10 seconds. King and Queen lost in few minutes.
-Act 1 Luffy forced Kaido to use his fastest attack coated with CoC. Greenbull did not even use his strongest attack.
-Act 1 Luffy did not use FS. Kidd uses awakening. King can use his Lunarian hax.
- Act 1 Luffy was fighting a stronger top tier Kaido. King, Queen, Shanks were fighting weaker top tiers (Greenbull, Shanks).

Kaido especially acknowledged Luffy, Zoro and Law post rooftop. Said they could've conquerored the world if they joined up.

Didn't Greenbull say King and Queen are just another subordinates? Or bozos in other translation. Kaido hyped Luffy, Law, Zoro because they had ap to damage him. That does not mean bar Luffy, Zoro and Law are above those who lack ap to damage Kaido. King who was called a mere subordinate or bozo in other translation dominated rooftop Zoro.

 

[McNuss]

Forget about the Kid/Law Vs BM fight because they only won due to Hawkins card.

Magic is real and under those circumstances they could have beaten anyone.

 

[kkck]

Did Kaido get powercliffed?

Kidd with awakening and Killer lost to Shanks.
Kidd and Law beat Big Mom.
Kidd without awakening stalemated Big Mom until Law came to help Kidd.
Big Mom stalemated Kaido for 3 days.

So Shanks>>>>Big Mom<Kaido which goes against the manga or power creep does not exist.

Shanks speed is also not as impressive as I thought. Killer reacted to it.

Kaido who had better CoO than Killer cannot react to Snakeman.

WCI Snakeman is faster than Shanks.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 17, 2023, Original Post Date: Aug 17, 2023 ---

Spoiler

@kkck


You better stop misinterpreting the manga. Actual translation implies Big Mom was insecure because she looked like a garbage compared to Katakuri in WCI.

Spoiler

Rayleigh placed Katakuri among the mightiest together with Shanks and Kaido (confirmed FS users). Bege placed Katakuri over Big Mom in term of threat in tea party.


Actually she called Marco a slave.

Big Mom said the remnant of WBP lost their way to which Marco corrected her by saying we (WBP) are not bounded by pops will which means Marco helped SHP because of his own will not because of what WB told him aka a slave. When BM said she thought Marco was better than this, she was actually saying that she thought Marco was better than a slave.

Spoiler

Luffy held out against Fujitora. Bruised him and tanked his Raging Tiger which Fujitora used on Sabo.

Crocodile held out Mihawk. Crocodile in MF was portrayed equal to Doflamingo who was weaker and still weaker than Katakuri.

Post TS Crocodile who was equal to Doflamingo was portrayed as YC1 in Cross Guild which makes Katakuri YC1+.

Marco cannot even damage Queen the weakest YC2. All he could do was surface level damage. Queen was not even forced to use any Germa attacks and his hybrid form.

You better stop underestimating the only YC1 beside Benn Beckman who has portrayals over a warlord (Doflamingo). The better feats Crocodile show, the better Doflamingo looks which hypes Sweet Commanders even more.

You also forgot that Cracker was fighting Aokiji and Van Augur. Jozu got 1 shot by Aokiji the moment Jozu was distracted. Cracker was also still injured. It's only 1 day since Cracker fought Luffy.



Kaido calling Jack strong does not help Jack portrayal from being portrayed in the same tier as Perospero who is weaker than Snack



Marco might not be stronger than even Queen tbh. They look like in the same tier. Marco cannot damage Queen. There is no difference in damage on Queen before he fought Sanji and when he started his fight with Sanji. Marco cannot force Queen to use his hybrid and any Germa attacks. All attacks Marco did on Queen was when Queen was distracted. First was by Hyogoro (Phoenix Brand attack), second when Queen came out of the rubble (talon attack he took) and third by Chopper (Marco holding Queen's neck).

@grey matter


Luffy got feats against Fujitora. Crocodile had feats against Mihawk. Crocodile=Doflamingo in MF. Both Dressrosa Luffy and Doflamingo<Katakuri.

Marco vs Big Mom is not different than Brook vs Big Mom. Brook also was fighting Big Mom for 5 chapters. Longer than Marco who was fighting Big Mom for 4 chapters.

Brook if his df can counter his opponent->Damaged Prometheus, tanked Big Mom attack.
Brook if his df cannot counter his opponent->Almost lost to Sheepshead

Marco if his df can counter his opponent->Damaged Prometheus.
Marco if his df cannot counter his opponent->Can only deal surface level damage to Queen. Cannot force Queen to force hybrid or germa attacks.

Marco's feats against Big Mom is not a representation of his power level since his df cannot counter all of his opponents. It's not different than Luffy vs Enel who stomped Zoro. In the end Luffy>Zoro not Luffy>>>>Zoro just because Luffy beat Enel.

Current Sanji still has more chances to beat Marco via his performance against Queen than beating Katakuri.



This is no different than saying look at what a weaker yonko Shanks did to awakened Kidd who while not in awakening, went toe to toe with Big Mom who stalemated Kaido for 3 days.

You might as well say Shanks>>>>Big Mom<Kaido which contradicts the manga since Kaido fought Shanks and still said only Joy Boy could beat him which means Kaido did not think Shanks could beat him which debunks the notion that Shanks is stronger than Kaido. Zoro having feats against Kaido does not put him above WCI Snakeman Luffy. Damaging Kaido does not mean rooftop Zoro has speed and CoO to counter Snakeman. At best WCI Snakeman and rooftop Zoro are on the same tier.

No matter how embarrassing act 1 Luffy was, it's not as embarrassing as Kidd vs Shanks or King and Queen vs greenbull
-Act 1 Luffy was fighting Kaido solo. Kidd got Killer to protect him. King got Queen and other BP help.
-Act 1 Luffy fought Kaido for 30 minutes. Kidd lost in less than 10 seconds. King and Queen lost in few minutes.
-Act 1 Luffy forced Kaido to use his fastest attack coated with CoC. Greenbull did not even use his strongest attack.
-Act 1 Luffy did not use FS. Kidd uses awakening. King can use his Lunarian hax.
- Act 1 Luffy was fighting a stronger top tier Kaido. King, Queen, Shanks were fighting weaker top tiers (Greenbull, Shanks).


Didn't Greenbull say King and Queen are just another subordinates? Or bozos in other translation. Kaido hyped Luffy, Law, Zoro because they had ap to damage him. That does not mean bar Luffy, Zoro and Law are above those who lack ap to damage Kaido. King who was called a mere subordinate or bozo in other translation dominated rooftop Zoro.

At least kidd and luffy lost their consciousness while fighting kaido and big mom. I don't recall if this happened to law. Had the fight not been a team battle then this would have amounted to death.

 

[BlackTiger]

At least kidd and luffy lost their consciousness while fighting kaido and big mom. I don't recall if this happened to law. Had the fight not been a team battle then this would have amounted to death.

Kidd without awakening stalemated Big Mom until Law came to help. Kidd with awakening and Law beat Big Mom.

Kidd with awakening and Killer help got 1 shot by Shanks in less than 10 seconds.

Shanks performed much better against stronger Kidd than Big Mom who is almost as strong as Kaido did. Shanks debunks powercreep agenda since Shanks>Kaido contradicts the manga since Kaido fought Shanks and still said only Joy Boy could beat him. Wano Snakeman=WCI Snakeman in speed department.

 

[kkck]

Kidd without awakening stalemated Big Mom until Law came to help. Kidd with awakening and Law beat Big Mom.

Kidd with awakening and Killer help got 1 shot by Shanks in less than 10 seconds.

Shanks performed much better against stronger Kidd than Big Mom who is almost as strong as Kaido did. Shanks debunks powercreep agenda since Shanks>Kaido contradicts the manga since Kaido fought Shanks and still said only Joy Boy could beat him. Wano Snakeman=WCI Snakeman in speed department.

there's no indication kidd fought big mom for long before law arrived. As far as I can tell they were barely moments apart. There's no scenario where law or kidd last that long on their own against a yonko, at least around the time they were at wano. Shanks took out kidd with one of his stronger techniques but as far as we know that's not something the other yonko would have struggled doing against kidd or law.

 

[BlackTiger]

there's no indication kidd fought big mom for long before law arrived. As far as I can tell they were barely moments apart. There's no scenario where law or kidd last that long on their own against a yonko, at least around the time they were at wano. Shanks took out kidd with one of his stronger techniques but as far as we know that's not something the other yonko would have struggled doing against kidd or law.

Yes he did he did not loss in less than 10 seconds against Big Mom. Big Mom used Napoleon. Her main sword attack. Kidd held out for more than 10 seconds. Kidd with awakening and Killer help lost in less than 10 seconds.

Kidd without awakening lasted more than 10 seconds against Big Mom. Kidd and Law beat Big Mom.

Shanks 1 shot Kidd and Killer in less than 10 seconds. Though Shanks used his stronger attack, Kidd used awakening and his stronger attack too. Kidd without awakening stalemated Big Mom more than 10 seconds who was using Napoleon until Law came.

Power creep does not exist unless you agree Kidd got power creep from Wano to Elbaf only to get 1 shot by Shanks in less than 10 seconds which shows Shanks>>>Big Mom<Kaido.

Didn't you say Luffy who beat Katakuri got 1 shot by Kaido implies Kaido>>>Katakuri?

Why doesn't it work for Kidd? Non awakening Kidd who stalemated Big Mom before Law came to help got 1 shot by Shanks despite Kidd used awakening.

Kidd and Law beat Big Mom.
Kidd and Killer got 1 shot by Shanks in less than 10 seconds.

Doesn't that imply Shanks can easily beat Big Mom or Kaido from your powercreep argument?

 

[kkck]

Does it look like big mom went out of her way to hit kidd with anything like shanks kamusari?

Also, the powercreep doesn't care if you believe in it or not.

 

[BlackTiger]

Does it look like big mom went out of her way to hit kidd with anything like shanks kamusari?

Also, the powercreep doesn't care if you believe in it or not.

Kidd also did use awakening though against Shanks.

Though Big Mom did not use her stronger attack, Kidd also did not use awakening so it counters each other.

Big Mom lost to 2 supernova.

Shanks beat 2 supernova Kidd and Killer.

Feel free to believe in powercreep if you are that biased. Powercreep implies Shanks>>>>Big Mom<Kaido.

 

[kkck]

Kidd also did use awakening though against Shanks.

Though Big Mom did not use her stronger attack, Kidd also did not use awakening so it counters each other.

Big Mom lost to 2 supernova.

Shanks beat 2 supernova Kidd and Killer.

Feel free to believe in powercreep if you are that biased. Powercreep implies Shanks>>>>Big Mom<Kaido.

What difference does awakening do in this context? Kidd's awakening allows him to assign a charge to stuff, it doesn't make him physically faster, stronger or more durable. Kidd was about to fire his shots, shanks jumped in an ended him. How is that not something other yonko could have otherwise done? if anything the other yonko have comparable feats. Shanks one shot G4 luffy at the beginning of wano with a named technique, he also knocked out luffy at least once during the battle at onigashima. Kidd was knocked out during the battle against big mom and that while law was fighting as well.

 

[BlackTiger]

What difference does awakening do in this context? Kidd's awakening allows him to assign a charge to stuff, it doesn't make him physically faster, stronger or more durable. Kidd was about to fire his shots, shanks jumped in an ended him. How is that not something other yonko could have otherwise done? if anything the other yonko have comparable feats. Shanks one shot G4 luffy at the beginning of wano with a named technique, he also knocked out luffy at least once during the battle at onigashima. Kidd was knocked out during the battle against big mom and that while law was fighting as well.

Shanks did it in less than 10 seconds and he 1 shot Kidd AND Killer. You kept forgetting Killer like Shanks did not 1 shot him too. Did Big Mom 1 shot Kidd and Law? Did Kaido 1 shot Zoro and Law when Luffy was unconscious?

Act 1 Luffy vs Kaido lasted for 30 minutes. Kidd and Killer vs Shanks lasted in less than 10 seconds. Less than 10 seconds another point that you ignored. Kidd vs Big Mom lasted more than 10 seconds.

We saw Big Mom used her strongest attack on Kidd and law it did not do anything. Shanks 1 shot BOTH Kidd and Killer.

"Kidd's awakening did not help him" If that's the argument you want to use, act 1 Luffy was not using Future Sight too which was the reason why Kaido could hit him with Thunder Bagua but you ignored this in your mind Luffy in act 1 was the same Luffy who beat Katakuri. Rooftop base Luffy dodged Thunder Bagua because he used Future Sight not because he's faster.

Didn't you also say all rooftop 5 are as fast as Snakeman WCI because they kept up with Kaido? You kept saying powercreep does exist that means Elbaf Kidd is faster than Snakeman and Shanks blitzed that. That means Shanks can blitz Gear 5 Wano Luffy. He can blitz Kaido too and low diffs him. Powercreep does not make sense because Shanks won't blitz Kaido and just low diff him like that with continuous Kamusari.

If they fought, Kaido could keep up with Shanks speed which means Kidd in Elbaf is not faster than Wano Kidd. That means Wano Kidd was not also as fast as Snakeman. Anyone on the rooftop was not as fast as WCI Snakeman.

There goes your powercreep argument.

 

[albertwv]

It seems to me that Awakening for Paramethias are NOT power ups/transformations unlike for Zoans. We don't know about Logias just yet.
Zoans become stronger with Awakenings since their powers are more physical than magic (lack of a better word to describe paramethias and logias).
In this case, Kid, Law, Doffy, and Kata's awakening do not necessarily make them stronger.
It is more of a technique than a power up. Doffy's awakening does not make him physically stronger or faster or durable, neither does Kata. It only gives them better use of their DF.
Kid's or Law's awakening is the same thing, it doesnt make them stronger or more durable, it only gives them a better technique.

Kid and Law vs BM, is not the same as Shanks vs Kid (and Killer). The BM fight was due to plothole. They wont due to considerable handicaps, they were not meant to win, but Oda needed BM out of the picture. BM should have never been in Wano, it just shows how much Oda was rushing to end the Yonko saga.

I think it would have made more sense if Kaido was the only one taken down in Wano. If the fight was a 5 vs 1 on the rooftop, just like how it was in the movie Stampede, versus Bullet. That movie made more sense than Onigashima rooftop. The power creep in Onigashima was out of control for almost all the characters. I was expecting that the Supernova would all brawl agaisnt Kaido, with Luffy being the last one and delivering the final attack and winning.

 

[grey matter]

Gear 5 is somehow hard to gauge in terms of speed and attack power. Obviously its a power up since it helped take down Kaido, especially with Bajrang gun and seemingly being immune to Kaido's attacks?
Idk, it seem when Kaido attacked Gear 5 and the club shaped Luffy's head/face, It gave me the sense that it did not particularly hurt Luffy.
Does Gear 5 give Luffy a better defense than his previous forms due to the cartoon/rubber properties. Does his speed increase? Does his attack power increase.
Could Luffy have done Bagrang Gun without Gear 5, because too me it seemed like it was an Extra Large King Kong Gun.

This is my take on gear 5.

Gear 5 gives seemingly unlimited "freedom" to Luffy's body. He doesn't need to pump himself to become a giant, he can just "want" to become that, and he would.

Gear 5 has massively higher blunt force resistance compared to his previous forms, though it isn't exactly clear why that is the case. Body forming around blunt force attacks is a thing even in base, and haki is supposed to counter this.
He isn't exactly immune, as we saw Kaido hurting Luffy with his attacks. But the difference in blunt force resistance was still glaringly obvious and massive relative to his prior forms.

**************

Comparison to gear 4

I think gear 4 "on average" has higher attack power and has higher attack speed, because gear 4 is constantly under intense spring force.

Gear 5 is capable of surpassing gear 4's attack power, once the giant forms are pulled out.

I don't think gear 5 is capable of surpassing gear 4's attack speed, because this attack speed is inherently a result of intense spring force. But this can't happen with gear 5 because there is no known limit to stretching, and hence practically impossible to get spring force at least in theory (think of it as k approximating 0 where force is kx)

Gear 5 does have great cqc because of no limitations on the body though, as we saw with fight against Lucci. He can just move whereever he wants, which makes tagging him very hard.

 

[kkck]

I suppose it's a bit far into speculation but... is it that weird that luffy could also get freedom to alter his elasticity with G5? WIth G4 he achieves this via combining his rubber body with his hardening but with G5 he could potentially do this by merely willing it. And then also combine it with his haki of course.