One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
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• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

Just requires reading the chapter. He heard it coming. Everything isn't Haki.

Her role was to bake the cake, it's done. Even if she's going to add decorations, that's not really important. Sanji alone is skilled enough to do it with Pudding. All that really matters is the taste of the cake.

You think even if Chfffon was done, she'll just stay behind to get executed? She's not trying to get herself killed. Of course she's going to say she needs to accompany them to complete the cake. It's part of the plan in order to allow them to all escape.



All good haha. I'm just being as objective as possible. I personally do not favour any characters over others or havve favourite character, I look at all characters as objectively as possible because bias over characters tends to compromise ability to be objective due to bias and favouritism. When we see him in a fight, we'll see for sure. If he starts speed-blitzing characters left right and centre, then that it is. However, I doubt that'd be the case. I'm far more inclined to believe he'll get a power up in Haki like will likely be the case for Luffy this arc. If he's so exceedingly fast, I'd be surprise as against, opponents, he's not shown an edge in speed.

Same text bubble for sensing something with haki.
You do make a good point. It looks more like he picked it up with his CoO, and the sound effect was there for the axe travelling.
I’ll just agree
Which bring me to the next question. The bullet hit Oven square in the face. I’m going to say now that beges ability range ain’t that large. So the bullet must have returned to its normal size enough to be perceived, but It still hit him.
I don’t think a normal bullet can cause an explosion like that. Not an expert on guns. But the bullet that caused an explosion should be considerably big right??
But then, everything still makes him look weak/stupid still. For thinking Bege will surrender easily.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Same text bubble for sensing something with haki.

No it's not. It said "Whoosh", wind SFX, he heard it and then saw it.

The bullet hit Oven square in the face. I’m going to say now that beges ability range ain’t that large. So the bullet must have returned to its normal size enough to be perceived, but It still hit him.

No one saw it coming. More so with the fact he shot it out of a tiny gun from that range. There was no gun-shot sound, no cannon sound, nothing indicating a shot was incoming. So, really, it isn't. He only noticed it late like those at Sabaody.

I don’t think a normal bullet can cause an explosion like that. Not an expert on guns. But the bullet that caused an explosion should be considerably big right??

Not much is known about his weapons. All we know is he can manipulate the size of his ammunition. And people notice it very late.

But then, everything still makes him look weak/stupid still. For thinking Bege will surrender easily.

Not at all making him look stupid. It's common sense to comply with orders when your enemy has loved ones hostage.

It would be like Sanji attacking Bege and his crew despite the fact he had Nami and co. hostage. How you imply Oven is stupid implies Bege is smart for shooting Oven. With that logic as your basis, then Sanji is also stupid for not attacking Bege here even though Nami and co. are hostage just like Chiffon is here.

What Bege did was risky and pretty rash except he has a solid plan in place. There's a fine line between being reckless and being stupid, and 9/10 times, what Bege is doing is stupid because it would 9/10 times lead to the death of the hostage.

There's a reason why in hostage situations, the police don't just shoot, it's because that's the definition of stupidity. They bargain. It's far more likely Oven would have been expecting Bege to bargain for Chiffon's life for his or something along those.

Bege is also surrounded by the Big Mom Pirates, no one would have guessed he'd have been this reckless.

Nothing has made Oven look stupid - he's made good decisions thus far, it's more a case of you not really understanding the situation and trying to glorify Sanji with trivialities.

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

No it's not. It said "Whoosh", wind SFX, he heard it and then saw it.



No one saw it coming. More so with the fact he shot it out of a tiny gun from that range. There was no gun-shot sound, no cannon sound, nothing indicating a shot was incoming. So, really, it isn't. He only noticed it late like those at Sabaody.



Not much is known about his weapons. All we know is he can manipulate the size of his ammunition. And people notice it very late.



Not at all making him look stupid. It's common sense to comply with orders when your enemy has loved ones hostage.

It would be like Sanji attacking Bege and his crew despite the fact he had Nami and co. hostage. How you imply Oven is stupid implies Bege is smart for shooting Oven. With that logic as your basis, then Sanji is also stupid for not attacking Bege here even though Nami and co. are hostage just like Chiffon is here.

What Bege did was risky and pretty rash except he has a solid plan in place. There's a fine line between being reckless and being stupid, and 9/10 times, what Bege is doing is stupid because it would 9/10 times lead to the death of the hostage.

There's a reason why in hostage situations, the police don't just shoot, it's because that's the definition of stupidity. They bargain. It's far more likely Oven would have been expecting Bege to bargain for Chiffon's life for his or something along those.

Bege is also surrounded by the Big Mom Pirates, no one would have guessed he'd have been this reckless.

Nothing has made Oven look stupid - he's made good decisions thus far, it's more a case of you not really understanding the situation and trying to glorify Sanji with trivialities.

I’ve left Sanji out of it time ago. I’m questioning oVens decisions. None of this has been about sanjis speed. I have agreed with you that Sanji is not that fast, you’re just chatting poo by saying that I’m glorifying Sanji...
Bege knows oven wants him alive. He probably has a plan. I’ll wait till I comment on the follow up.
Sanji didn’t make a move against Bege till he knew he was needed alive and he used himself as a bargaining chip for their escape. He was also certain nekomamushi/someone strong was outside.

Also why Oven should have sensed the bullet is because CoO work by showing a snap shot of the future from your (the character)perspective, or this is one of its uses. Since Luffy, Katakuri(this was why Katakuri only saw pudding kneeling, but he didn’t know why she was kneeling, and he saw Luffy shrink, but questioned why) and snake sisters have displayed something like this. So from oVens perspectives, if he was expecting Sanji to attack again, he should have seen himself getting shot. So I don’t think he was using his CoO, that’s why he got shot. Which leads to believe he left himself open to an attack. And regarding sensing Sanji with his CoO. It doesn’t take effort at all. It basic CoO usage imo.
Edit: After looking at the chapter again, it was clear to me that Oven is a bit dumb. He assumed Bege will abandon his baby mama. And also he said he thought Bege was more cool headed. And also he noticed beges attack but he was too slow, to avoid it.
Also beges ship was insight. Now except Bege has a sound dampening ability, that gun shot should have been heard.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I’ve left Sanji out of it time ago. I’m questioning oVens decisions. None of this has been about sanjis speed. I have agreed with you that Sanji is not that fast, you’re just chatting poo by saying that I’m glorifying Sanji...
Bege knows oven wants him alive. He probably has a plan. I’ll wait till I comment on the follow up.
Sanji didn’t make a move against Bege till he knew he was needed alive and he used himself as a bargaining chip for their escape. He was also certain nekomamushi/someone strong was outside.

No, more like Sanji had no clue what Bege was up to. So, it really isn't that much different. Sanji didn't attack because he had hostages.

The entire point of having a hostage is to strong-arm whoever is related to the hostage. This is a fact. No one gets a hostage because they just want to talk and play scrabble. There's an agenda behind it and it's usually to coerce and strong arm. Even Chiffon was surprised that Bege made a shot.

Spoiler

You don't claim Sanji's Observation as trash and not sensing that Nami and co. were about to be kidnapped. When it's Oven however, you claim he's incompetent.

Also why Oven should have sensed the bullet is because CoO work by showing a snap shot of the future from your (the character)perspective, or this is one of its uses. Since Luffy, Katakuri(this was why Katakuri only saw pudding kneeling, but he didn’t know why she was kneeling, and he saw Luffy shrink, but questioned why) and snake sisters have displayed something like this. So from oVens perspectives, if he was expecting Sanji to attack again, he should have seen himself getting shot. So I don’t think he was using his CoO, that’s why he got shot. Which leads to believe he left himself open to an attack. And regarding sensing Sanji with his CoO. It doesn’t take effort at all. It basic CoO usage imo.

He probably wasn't. The point still is he had a hostage, he'd spoken to Bege. It was highly unlikely that Bege would make a move in that situation; Chiffon even expressed surprise by his actions. He knows there's a fleet behind Bege, they've got man-power on land and by sea.

Even if he he used Observation Haki, he wouldn't be able to see as far as Katakuri. Katakuri makes it seem effortless, what he does, there's no one whose said to have that level of foresight. So, I think you're using Katakuri as a standard, and that's too high.

Could bring up Sanji who many believe to be the CoO extraordinaire of the SH crew, it begs, the question why didn't he see Joker string him up? There is nonetheless an answer.

You say CoO doesn't take effort, it must. Not many people are as skilled at using it as Katakuri. If it were the case, everyone would be dodging attacks like Katakuri left right and centre.

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

No, more like Sanji had no clue what Bege was up to. So, it really isn't that much different. Sanji didn't attack because he had hostages.

The entire point of having a hostage is to strong-arm whoever is related to the hostage. This is a fact. No one gets a hostage because they just want to talk and play scrabble. There's an agenda behind it and it's usually to coerce and strong arm. Even Chiffon was surprised that Bege made a shot.

Spoiler

You don't claim Sanji's Observation as trash and not sensing that Nami and co. were about to be kidnapped. When it's Oven however, you claim he's incompetent.



He probably wasn't. The point still is he had a hostage, he'd spoken to Bege. It was highly unlikely that Bege would make a move in that situation; Chiffon even expressed surprise by his actions. He knows there's a fleet behind Bege, they've got man-power on land and by sea.

Even if he he used Observation Haki, he wouldn't be able to see as far as Katakuri. Katakuri makes it seem effortless, what he does, there's no one whose said to have that level of foresight. So, I think you're using Katakuri as a standard, and that's too high.

Could bring up Sanji who many believe to be the CoO extraordinaire of the SH crew, it begs, the question why didn't he see Joker string him up? There is nonetheless an answer.

You say CoO doesn't take effort, it must. Not many people are as skilled at using it as Katakuri. If it were the case, everyone would be dodging attacks like Katakuri left right and centre.

Yeah, but I’m thinking Bege shot oven because he heard him hit his wife. This is something a gangsta would do. At this point I’m just guessing as to why he shot him.
Well since you bring that up, Sanji wasn’t expecting anything at that point. He was cooking I believe. It not like someone previous attacked their ship, for him to be on alert.
As you stated Oven knew there was an attacker about so to stop himself from getting hit again, the. He’d have his CoO.
How did he see beges gun shot?? CoO or gun sound?? Which ever it is, he was too slow. Him seeing the future isnt as good as Katakuri. Katakuri can see a conversation. But all oven needed was just a seconds premonition that he was gonna get shot. He still didn’t block or dodge it.
Oven should be able to use it, not as proficiently as Katakuri but well enough to not get shot in the face by a gunshot I’m sure he heard, and given the distance, he couldn’t dodge. I used Katakuri as an example. If Katakuri can see say 5 seconds, oven should be able to see at least 1 or 2 secs.
So he probably underestimated the threat Sanji posed and chose not to use his CoO, or his CtoO is not as good as I have described.
He had at least 2-3seconds to dodge(no maths, just a guess). Even if say beges ship was 3-4 football pitch length away, the gunshot should have been heard.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Well since you bring that up, Sanji wasn’t expecting anything at that point. He was cooking I believe. It not like someone previous attacked their ship, for him to be on alert.

They were already fighting, he was the one who also initiated the attack. He used geppou to fly at Joker and while attacking, he got tangled up by Joker's strings. It's not like Joker ambushed him. Point I'm making is Sanji not anticipating getting strung up is not for being incompetent, there's only so far anyone can see with Observation, not everyone has Katakuri's level of enlightenment.

As you stated Oven knew there was an attacker about so to stop himself from getting hit again, the. He’d have his CoO.
How did he see beges gun shot?? CoO or gun sound?? Which ever it is, he was too slow. Him seeing the future isnt as good as Katakuri. Katakuri can see a conversation. But all oven needed was just a seconds premonition that he was gonna get shot. He still didn’t block or dodge it.

Can say the same thing here regarding Sanji. Why didn't he anticipate Joker stringing him up, only takes a second. It's not that easy.

Like I said before, even the guys at Marineford weren't aware they'd been shot until the cannonballs were in their faces. It's not about being slow, it's about not being able to anticipate it as nothing indicated a shot was coming.

When a cannon ball is coming, it's obvious. There's a sound, there's a huge black ball. There was none of that when Bege shot. Even Chiffon wasn't aware of the shot until it'd hit Oven.

I’m sure he heard, and given the distance, he couldn’t dodge. I

There was no sound indicating a shot. Nothing hinted at it. That's the point and the reason it came as a surprise to everyone.

 

[nik87]

I wouldnt be so sure when it comes to Observation Haki. There is no ironclad rule when it comes to it, especially when examples we use are Strawhats. The rules are bending and its always in their favor, simply plot armor.

Luffy noticed the Axe before he heard Whoosh sounds effect. Sanji dodged a bean (bean is not a living person). We will have a showdown of sharpshooters in future (Ussop, Yassop, Van Augur, others) and bullets will be dodged (bullets are not living person either.)

Observation Haki may as well be working on inanimate objects and promoting the opposite with certainty and trashing the first opinion may not bear fruit.

Same when it comes to Katakuris CoO, the manga never stated that normal CoO was seeing future(prove me wrong), always different term was used and yet since Katakuris introduction people attached seeing future to normal CoO. I explained many situations and examples proving that seeing future is not a thing any other CoO user does, since Katakuri is doing things normal CoO cant do. People disagree and will disagree, that wont change.

Regarding Sanji and Oven, dont jump to conclusions so fast, we have yet to see what both of them are capable of.

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

They were already fighting, he was the one who also initiated the attack. He used geppou to fly at Joker and while attacking, he got tangled up by Joker's strings. It's not like Joker ambushed him. Point I'm making is Sanji not anticipating getting strung up is not for being incompetent, there's only so far anyone can see with Observation, not everyone has Katakuri's level of enlightenment.



Can say the same thing here regarding Sanji. Why didn't he anticipate Joker stringing him up, only takes a second. It's not that easy.

Like I said before, even the guys at Marineford weren't aware they'd been shot until the cannonballs were in their faces. It's not about being slow, it's about not being able to anticipate it as nothing indicated a shot was coming.

When a cannon ball is coming, it's obvious. There's a sound, there's a huge black ball. There was none of that when Bege shot. Even Chiffon wasn't aware of the shot until it'd hit Oven.



There was no sound indicating a shot. Nothing hinted at it. That's the point and the reason it came as a surprise to everyone.

Oh yeah I missed out the joker bit. It’s simple, Sanji was in a rage and not calm. CoO isn’t as good when you lose your cool.

 

[M3J]

Pretty sure Luffy is faster than Sanji in gear 2. Luffy was able to avoid Katakuri for 40 minutes despite the fatigue from fighting Cracker (he pretty much fainted after using Gear 4 against Big Mom). Katakuri is well within the top 10 fastest characters because his fighting style depends on CoO and speed. So Luffy should be fast as hell if he can avoid Katakuri for 40 minutes despite the fatigue.

http://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/One-Piece-chapter-879-page-15.html

http://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/One-Piece-chapter-881-page-15.html

Not sure where you got the forty minutes from, and it looks like Luffy wasn't that fatigued as he did get energy back from Sanji's food and resting in Bege's place. However, Luffy did get hit at least twice.

• Plenty of fighters have attacked their enemies while they were distracted, like how Sanji did with Oven. So it has been done before.
• Vanishing due to speed is not new either.
  Spoiler

  

Somebody's gonna say that Luffy can take on Big Mom because he was able to kick oven while Oven was distracted?

I don't think anybody would even care if Luffy did this, this is barely a feat for Luffy. Luffy is already fighting Katakuri equally, despite almost fainting from fatigue a while back. I'm pretty sure he can kick an opponent while he is distracted and take back the hostage.

Yeah, Luffy did it in Gear 2 while Sanji did not need a powerup to "vanish," and he still wasn't seen throughout the whole thing. I'm sure someone would have noticed some sort of blur or something even if they were focused on Pound and Oven.

No, people thought Luffy could take on Big Mom when he couldn't beat Cracker or Doflamingo without help and can't even beat Katakuri. Cracker is Big Mom's underling, and Doflamingo doesn't have Yonkou-level strength, and yet readers still thought Luffy would be taking on and beating Big Mom this very arc, that he'd somehow get a powerup that'd allow him to even be able to hurt her a bit. And they still insisted on this even after his and Sanji's combined attack did nothing to Big Mom even though she didn't use her haki, and when his Gear 4 attack didn't faze her at all, although she used haki. Luffy fans keep crying about Sanji fans, but Sanji fans actually have a reason to believe that Sanji could take on Katakuri. Luffy fans don't, given we saw Luffy go all out, and it definitely couldn't have done much to Big Mom if it couldn't hurt her underling or her underling's hard biscuits, anyway.


He's fighting Katakuri equally? So running away from Katakuri because Katakuri's too powerful for Luffy to take on at the moment is equal? Luffy constantly being on the defensive is equal? The only time (or one of the few times) Luffy actually was able to land a hit on Katakuri was when Katakuri was pissed off is equal? Do you think Luffy was fighting Crocodile equally in their first fight? That Luffy was fighting Aokiji equally before he got frozen? That he can fight Akainu equally? If Sanji was in Luffy's place, no one would be thinking it was an equal fight, but that Katakuri is easily superior.

If Luffy tried that, he'd probably be spotted somehow.


Also, it looks like Sanji was at Oven's eye level when he was on the way to kick Oven and didn't get below his eye level until he kicked him, if we're using height as a horrible excuse to downplay Sanji. Wonder what kind excuse readers would come up with if Sanji did beat Oven in an one-on-one fight: "but Oven was hurt by Sanji before they fought!"?

 

[Fox666]

So there's a heated debate over Sanji vs Oven, despite there being barely anything to compare them. I don't think Sanji stealth kick proves anything (only that Oven is hot-headed).

The only parallel we got is Capone calling Oven and some of his siblings "monsters" at the wedding, while he didn't took Sanji serious in Zou. Capone judgement seemed spot-on about Perosperos, as he has proven to be troublesome for the rest of the Strawhats.

 

[Enima]

Not sure where you got the forty minutes from, and it looks like Luffy wasn't that fatigued as he did get energy back from Sanji's food and resting in Bege's place. However, Luffy did get hit at least twice.

Katakuri mentioned that he missed his merienda by forty minutes which means Luffy took up 40 minutes more than expected.

It's true he was caught twice but it's still impressive that he managed to avoid most of Katakuri's attacks within the 40 minutes considering he fainted after using gear 4 against big mom, so he barely had any energy left. If he can do that with barely any energy left then his speed at full power should be insane.

Yeah, Luffy did it in Gear 2 while Sanji did not need a powerup to "vanish,

That's Luffy's power though. If not, Aren't Haki and Diable jambe power ups too?

Luffy fans keep crying about Sanji fans, but Sanji fans actually have a reason to believe that Sanji could take on Katakuri.

I completely agree that Luffy isn't strong enough to take down a yonko. But how is Sanji strong enough to take on Katakuri.

He isn't fast enough to react to vergo's attack..
His observation Haki didn't help against Judge, he was unable to see what judge was gonna do next...
His armament Haki isn't strong enough to tank a hit from Vergo...
Doflamingo blocked an attack from him without using Haki. so his strength isn't enough...

What can Sanji do against Katakuri.

He's fighting Katakuri equally? So running away from Katakuri because Katakuri's too powerful for Luffy to take on at the moment is equal? Luffy constantly being on the defensive is equal? The only time (or one of the few times) Luffy actually was able to land a hit on Katakuri was when Katakuri was pissed off is equal?

I mean..... If we consider Katakuri being pissed off as a weakness then Luffy was unconscious due to fatigue a while before he faced Katakuri. Luffy was able to heavily injure Katakuri despite being unable to stand up a while back. Isn't that fighting equally?

Also, it looks like Sanji was at Oven's eye level when he was on the way to kick Oven and didn't get below his eye level until he kicked him, if we're using height as a horrible excuse to downplay Sanji. Wonder what kind excuse readers would come up with if Sanji did beat Oven in an one-on-one fight: "but Oven was hurt by Sanji before they fought!"?

I wasn't using that excuse. I was saying that Sanji managed to hit oven while Oven was distracted so until Sanji has a real battle against Oven, it's impossible to gauge Oven's strength.

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

He isn't fast enough to react to vergo's attack..

Bullshit. Read the chapter, and see if he did not evade all attacks. The only attack that touch Sanji broke his shin.
In terms of the broken shin. Harjudin defeated Machvise after machvise said he already broke his bones. His bones then broke even further while performing the final move that took machvise out. So yeah does broken bone really stop you from doing much. Sanji still avoided Vergo a attacls even with the broken bone so, I never once thought Vergo was completely overpowering Sanji.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Oh yeah I missed out the joker bit. It’s simple, Sanji was in a rage and not calm. CoO isn’t as good when you lose your cool.

Not being calm is not the only prerequisite, if calm was all required, then every CoO user would literally be invincible, but there's more to it than that.

How far one can see is also another thing. Not many are able to see far enough to anticipate what their opponents will do next. Joker's strings are so thin, people can barely see them. Even when foreseeing the future, that doesn't mean attacks can be dodged as seen by the Gorgon sisters and Enel seemingly. Sanji couldn't stop Daifuku from catching him when attempting to save his family and he couldn't anticipate getting caught by Judge in mid-air. There are instances when Observation can't be used either. When attacking is one. Sanji was attacking Joker with a flurry of kicks and all Joker had to do was tank his kicks and bind him in due time.

We can't say all the times Sanji has been caught slipping is due to being in a rage, and it didn't seem to be the case against Joker. Looked more like he was just defending his comrades. Being in a rage would require having an history with someone that warranted anger; this is the case with Law. Even if Sanji was calm, it's unlikely he'd still have been able to avoid these conclusions.

There's a lot more to Observation besides calm and composure. There's level of threat; if not feeling threatened, the user would be unlikely to use it. There's confidence; you're in your own territory, you're strong and have an army at your beck and call, might not feel the need to wary. I doubt there are many characters in the series who can anticipate all things - Perospero as powerful as he's shown himself to be couldn't anticipate being blown up. Even Fujitora seemed to not notice that Law who he had subdued was going to escape, we can't say his Observation is useless, or he wasn't calm or composed .

One thing we know for certain is Oven didn't feel the need to worry about Bege, he assumed he'd just come to the port without doing anything funny as he warned him. He may well have had his CoO up just enough that anyone within his perimeter would be picked up should anyone (sanji) within his proximity decide to attack. We can look at the Wedding, and even Katakuri couldn't foresee Brook destroy the Mother Carmel image.

There's limitations to Observation, the range it covers, how far into the future is foreseen.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 26, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 26, 2017 ---

Bullshit. Read the chapter, and see if he did not evade all attacks. The only attack that touch Sanji broke his shin.
In terms of the broken shin. Harjudin defeated Machvise after machvise said he already broke his bones. His bones then broke even further while performing the final move that took machvise out. So yeah does broken bone really stop you from doing much. Sanji still avoided Vergo a attacls even with the broken bone so, I never once thought Vergo was completely overpowering Sanji.

He was; Sanji's speed wasn't an issue for Vergo and likewise, but Vergo's power was an issue for Sanji. Sanji broke a bone just from blocking an attack and Vergo wasn't using his Hardening which is significantly superior to Invisible. Even Sanji himself stated that he might well have lost. The only reason Machvise won that fight was because Oda more or less gave him a boost in strength, he overcame his own limits, otherwise, that battle belonged to Machvise. Sanji on the other hand, he would have lost to Vergo and even implied so himself.

Spoiler

Had Vergo used Hardening, Sanji would have been in much bigger trouble. Of course, his body was injured before this fight, but still can't ignore the fact Vergo wasn't really making much of an effort. Only way Sanji would have won is if Oda wanted to strengthen him, otherwise, this was Vergo's to win.

 

[kcd]

Personally, from the chapter, I feel oven wasn't all that bright, if not for anything but for the fact he wanted bigmom while in rage mode to come to cocoa island, at least pudding talked some sense into him, she seems to be more level headed than him. He wasn't really bright there.

It's true he wants to eliminate the threat of bege, but his priority right now should be facilitating the completion of the cake, since he arrived, they've not done much, if anything, on the cake, instead of working on the cake, pudding's just standing there probably concerned about what oven will do next, I don't see sanji working on the cake, all oven has done is cause tension that'll not make the cake be ready on time, I was thinking he would allow pudding and the chefs set sail while he deals with bege, but no, everyone is under boat arrest and have to witness the calculative oven take out bege.
The chefs should be worried, someone said he's about to get mad, I can't wait to see how reckless he'll act in front of the cake.
That's right..., it'll take pudding again to remind him he shouldn't always act on impulse.
That punch on chiffon though, had me ROFL, the slap, nothing topped that in the whole chapter, I wonder if he's really katakuri's twin brother.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 26, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 26, 2017 ---

Yea, now that I think about it, he was pretty dumb, right from the start of this arc, big mom's children always tries to get the citizens away from bigmom, or tries to stop bigmom from destroying cities, even at the cost of their lives, but here, he has to be told it's not a good idea if bigmom comes, that's dumbness on another level.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Personally, from the chapter, I feel oven wasn't all that bright, if not for anything but for the fact he wanted bigmom while in rage mode to come to cocoa island, at least pudding talked some sense into him, she seems to be more level headed than him. He wasn't really bright there.

It's true he wants to eliminate the threat of bege, but his priority right now should be facilitating the completion of the cake, since he arrived, they've not done much, if anything, on the cake, instead of working on the cake, pudding's just standing there probably concerned about what oven will do next, I don't see sanji working on the cake, all oven has done is cause tension that'll not make the cake be ready on time, I was thinking he would allow pudding and the chefs set sail while he deals with bege, but no, everyone is under boat arrest and have to witness the calculative oven take out bege.
The chefs should be worried, someone said he's about to get mad, I can't wait to see how reckless he'll act in front of the cake.
That's right..., it'll take pudding again to remind him he shouldn't always act on impulse.
That punch on chiffon though, had me ROFL, the slap, nothing topped that in the whole chapter, I wonder if he's really katakuri's twin brother.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 26, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 26, 2017 ---

Yea, now that I think about it, he was pretty dumb, right from the start of this arc, big mom's children always tries to get the citizens away from bigmom, or tries to stop bigmom from destroying cities, even at the cost of their lives, but here, he has to be told it's not a good idea if bigmom comes, that's dumbness on another level.

Then the entire BMP are dumb in essence because, if I recall, that was the plan from the very beginning. To have Perospero lure Big Mom to Cacao Island. This wasn't Oven's plan, but actually Pudding's. All he was doing was sticking to the plan.

This however was all a façade. It's not like the BMPs know that Sanji was going to aid with the cake. The only reason the Cake is being made this early is because of Sanji's unrivalled olfactory senses. Just be the fragrances of the cake, he could tell all the ingredients used and he even already had the design of the cake developed within a very short period of time. They were not aware that the Cake could have been created this quickly.

Look at it this way, it's like destroying an architectural masterpiece (void of a blueprint) that took 10 years of planning and building, and then reproducing a replica single-handedly and rebuilding it within a year; for such a thing to be replicated would normally require research, investigations, experiments, etc. I'm exaggerating, but the cake took weeks of planning and preparation, yet it took Sanji a moment to figure it all out because of his pedigree as a chef. Without Sanji, how long would it have taken them to even come up with the ingredients? Even Chiffon was astonished, a skilled chef in her own right as were the other chefs.

Without Sanji's talent in the equation which both Chiffon and Pudding were oblivious to and no one can fault them for that, the only thing they could really do was lure BIg Mom to Cacao Island, evacuate the country's civilians and hope that the cake would be ready by the time they reached Cacao Island.

With that said, do any of the BMP know anything about the cooking process? Do they know Sanji is involved? Do they know how much time he just saved them by literally remembering the blueprints of the cake and its ingredients? We really cannot call Oven daft because no one but Pudding and Chiffon were privy to these facts. All he did was stick to the plan.

Oven is just sticking to the plan. He's not been informed. He's not even aware of the details. It's sudden changes in plans that tends to cause confusion. If Oven had not queried Pudding, what if battleships saw this ship on sea, and mistook it as an enemy ship? More so with the fact there are no snails detecting traffic on sea, they need to stick to plans and remain organised. They can't just act independently in light of all that has happened.

Chiffon has actually done what she needed to do, and that was bake the cake. Oven taking her out doesn't hurt the plan at all. The decorating of the cake can be handled by Pudding and the chefs on board. It's not like he went out of his way to stop the cake from being taken to Big Mom. Pudding just suggested something new being delivering the cake at sea rather than at Cacao Island, and he agreed to it because it's sensible and he's going to alert the others about it. The carriage isn't under arrest, he's actually letting them proceed, all he's doing is detaining Chiffon who he deems a traitor because she's the enemy to the BMP.

He's not exactly rampaging, he's making sure everything goes to plan and he's not overreacting at this moment in time.

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

Not being calm is not the only prerequisite, if calm was all required, then every CoO user would literally be invincible, but there's more to it than that.

How far one can see is also another thing. Not many are able to see far enough to anticipate what their opponents will do next. Joker's strings are so thin, people can barely see them. Even when foreseeing the future, that doesn't mean attacks can be dodged as seen by the Gorgon sisters and Enel seemingly. Sanji couldn't stop Daifuku from catching him when attempting to save his family and he couldn't anticipate getting caught by Judge in mid-air. There are instances when Observation can't be used either. When attacking is one. Sanji was attacking Joker with a flurry of kicks and all Joker had to do was tank his kicks and bind him in due time.

We can't say all the times Sanji has been caught slipping is due to being in a rage, and it didn't seem to be the case against Joker. Looked more like he was just defending his comrades. Being in a rage would require having an history with someone that warranted anger; this is the case with Law. Even if Sanji was calm, it's unlikely he'd still have been able to avoid these conclusions.

There's a lot more to Observation besides calm and composure. There's level of threat; if not feeling threatened, the user would be unlikely to use it. There's confidence; you're in your own territory, you're strong and have an army at your beck and call, might not feel the need to wary. I doubt there are many characters in the series who can anticipate all things - Perospero as powerful as he's shown himself to be couldn't anticipate being blown up. Even Fujitora seemed to not notice that Law who he had subdued was going to escape, we can't say his Observation is useless, or he wasn't calm or composed .

One thing we know for certain is Oven didn't feel the need to worry about Bege, he assumed he'd just come to the port without doing anything funny as he warned him. He may well have had his CoO up just enough that anyone within his perimeter would be picked up should anyone (sanji) within his proximity decide to attack. We can look at the Wedding, and even Katakuri couldn't foresee Brook destroy the Mother Carmel image.

There's limitations to Observation, the range it covers, how far into the future is foreseen.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 26, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 26, 2017 ---

He was; Sanji's speed wasn't an issue for Vergo and likewise, but Vergo's power was an issue for Sanji. Sanji broke a bone just from blocking an attack and Vergo wasn't using his Hardening which is significantly superior to Invisible. Even Sanji himself stated that he might well have lost. The only reason Machvise won that fight was because Oda more or less gave him a boost in strength, he overcame his own limits, otherwise, that battle belonged to Machvise. Sanji on the other hand, he would have lost to Vergo and even implied so himself.

Spoiler

Had Vergo used Hardening, Sanji would have been in much bigger trouble. Of course, his body was injured before this fight, but still can't ignore the fact Vergo wasn't really making much of an effort. Only way Sanji would have won is if Oda wanted to strengthen him, otherwise, this was Vergo's to win.

Dude the issue is I’m explaining things from what she been said in the Manga. Also being calm might not be important I your opinion, but if it made the difference between Katakuri getting hit or not then imo it’s quite important.
Law was completely subdued. And fujitora was probably over confident as well. There’s a difference in these scenarios tho. Fujitora didn’t expect law to be able to escape. Plus laws ability is kind of a hax. Not sure how fujitora coulda countered that.
Perospero’s character, lets look at him: he is very in your face, and very over confident. This was why the Germa survived their assassination. He was so confident on the boat as well. So yeah perospero is cocky and over confident and seem the type to underestimate people.
I honesty wouldn’t say Katakuri was calm at the wedding, he seemed flustered. Hence why he couldn’t discern Luffy.
So what’s stopping Sanji from overcoming his limit?? If a side character could. You think plot will let die??
I’ve said this before Sanji kicked Vergo twice. One was a cheap shot and the second one was when the were both ready to fight. Tho I know you’ll say, him landing one attack in a fight doesn’t mean he’s faster. But after Vergos kick that broke Sanjis shin, Sanji still avoided the attacks after. So if he can still move that quickly after breaking a shin then he’s pretty fast imo.
You’re talking from readers view dude, did oven know what role chiffon was playing in making the cake?? If he said “don’t lie to me, the cake has been baked/m” or something like that then we can say he has an idea what her role is. Other than that, you’re talking from readers view.
Also, just a question, couldn’t sanjis “that was close... it could have been bad” been in reference to him getting locked in with the gas??? (Not being stupid, but the G5 people already assumed the gas got Sanji).
He was Angry that his crew mates were being attacked. Sanji wasn’t that calm vs Doflamingo.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Dude the issue is I’m explaining things from what she been said in the Manga. Also being calm might not be important I your opinion, but if it made the difference between Katakuri getting hit or not then imo it’s quite important.
Law was completely subdued. And fujitora was probably over confident as well. There’s a difference in these scenarios tho. Fujitora didn’t expect law to be able to escape. Plus laws ability is kind of a hax. Not sure how fujitora coulda countered that.
Perospero’s character, lets look at him: he is very in your face, and very over confident. This was why the Germa survived their assassination. He was so confident on the boat as well. So yeah perospero is cocky and over confident and seem the type to underestimate people.
I honesty wouldn’t say Katakuri was calm at the wedding, he seemed flustered. Hence why he couldn’t discern Luffy.
So what’s stopping Sanji from overcoming his limit?? If a side character could. You think plot will let die??
I’ve said this before Sanji kicked Vergo twice. One was a cheap shot and the second one was when the were both ready to fight. Tho I know you’ll say, him landing one attack in a fight doesn’t mean he’s faster. But after Vergos kick that broke Sanjis shin, Sanji still avoided the attacks after. So if he can still move that quickly after breaking a shin then he’s pretty fast imo.
You’re talking from readers view dude, did oven know what role chiffon was playing in making the cake?? If he said “don’t lie to me, the cake has been baked/m” or something like that then we can say he has an idea what her role is. Other than that, you’re talking from readers view.
Also, just a question, couldn’t sanjis “that was close... it could have been bad” been in reference to him getting locked in with the gas??? (Not being stupid, but the G5 people already assumed the gas got Sanji).
He was Angry that his crew mates were being attacked. Sanji wasn’t that calm vs Doflamingo.

Then you grossly misunderstood me. Never said calm isn't important, I said being calm and even using Observation will not prevent everything because not everyone's Observation can see 10 seconds into the future like Katakuri. No one so far has Observation of his calibre, therefore, things he will pick up, others won't.

Your excuse is Sanji is always angry, so he get trashed left right and centre it seems. Maybe Sanji was overconfident against Joker, of course, you wouldn't say this because it's Sanji. Has nothing to do with Sanji being angry, but aggressive, he was just protecting his crew; huge difference between being angry and being aggressive.

You're making out like everything can be anticipated if one isn't overconfident. That's a fundamentally false claim. Some things just can't be anticipated. No matter how strong one is, if they don't understand the situation or their opponent's ability, they'll be taken off-guard. Caesar defeated Luffy + 4 other people in 1 go, was it due to being overconfident? No, it's to do with the fact they lacked knowledge about his abilities.

And again, false statement. Katakuri wasn't flustered, he remained calm the entire time. Observation Haki can't pick up everything. It as limitations, that's what you don't understand which is why he said, even I can't predict this.

Also never said Sanji won't get stronger, and it's ridiculous to claim I said he won't overcome his limits and is a baseless assumption on your part. In fact if you actually read my previous posts I've written, you'd be aware I actually stated he will likely gain a power-up. Even made a thread last year stating he will likely gain a power-up: https://mangahelpers.com/forum/threads/resolves-impact-on-colour-of-armament-how-it-works.3005680/

Broken bone or not, Sanji is not that fast to any formidable opponent. Not Judge, not Daifuku, not Niji, not Vergo, even Pudding can see his movements. no one has ever fought Sanji and made reference to his speed or been dazzled by it.

The Vinsmokes weren't saved due to overconfidence of the BMP, it's more to do with the fact that things they couldn't foresee took place. If they were overconfident, they wouldn't have had the Vinsmokes isolated in a party without their raid suits.

How were they supposed to know the cake would be destroyed in the first place? or the picture broken? Your argument implies the SHs being in the cake is due to the BMP being overconfident. Explain exactly how they were supposed to know that?

Also, not from the readers view, but from the character's perspective, that's how one gains context. Most of your argument is completely void of context or character perspective which is why you take things at face value and often fail to understand what's really transpiring.

 

[kcd]

Then the entire BMP are dumb in essence because, if I recall, that was the plan from the very beginning. To have Perospero lure Big Mom to Cacao Island. This wasn't Oven's plan, but actually Pudding's. All he was doing was sticking to the plan.

This however was all a façade. It's not like the BMPs know that Sanji was going to aid with the cake. The only reason the Cake is being made this early is because of Sanji's unrivalled olfactory senses. Just be the fragrances of the cake, he could tell all the ingredients used and he even already had the design of the cake developed within a very short period of time. They were not aware that the Cake could have been created this quickly.

Look at it this way, it's like destroying an architectural masterpiece (void of a blueprint) that took 10 years of planning and building, and then reproducing a replica single-handedly and rebuilding it within a year; for such a thing to be replicated would normally require research, investigations, experiments, etc. I'm exaggerating, but the cake took weeks of planning and preparation, yet it took Sanji a moment to figure it all out because of his pedigree as a chef. Without Sanji, how long would it have taken them to even come up with the ingredients? Even Chiffon was astonished, a skilled chef in her own right as were the other chefs.

Without Sanji's talent in the equation which both Chiffon and Pudding were oblivious to and no one can fault them for that, the only thing they could really do was lure BIg Mom to Cacao Island, evacuate the country's civilians and hope that the cake would be ready by the time they reached Cacao Island.

With that said, do any of the BMP know anything about the cooking process? Do they know Sanji is involved? Do they know how much time he just saved them by literally remembering the blueprints of the cake and its ingredients? We really cannot call Oven daft because no one but Pudding and Chiffon were privy to these facts. All he did was stick to the plan.

Oven is just sticking to the plan. He's not been informed. He's not even aware of the details. It's sudden changes in plans that tends to cause confusion. If Oven had not queried Pudding, what if battleships saw this ship on sea, and mistook it as an enemy ship? More so with the fact there are no snails detecting traffic on sea, they need to stick to plans and remain organised. They can't just act independently in light of all that has happened.

Chiffon has actually done what she needed to do, and that was bake the cake. Oven taking her out doesn't hurt the plan at all. The decorating of the cake can be handled by Pudding and the chefs on board. It's not like he went out of his way to stop the cake from being taken to Big Mom. Pudding just suggested something new being delivering the cake at sea rather than at Cacao Island, and he agreed to it because it's sensible and he's going to alert the others about it. The carriage isn't under arrest, he's actually letting them proceed, all he's doing is detaining Chiffon who he deems a traitor because she's the enemy to the BMP.

He's not exactly rampaging, he's making sure everything goes to plan and he's not overreacting at this moment in time.

That's the thing, he has no idea what role chiffon will play to help complete the cake, he also didn't ask if her help was still needed and the first thing he does is to land a blow. That's some pretty cracked up behaviour for someone that's following the plan to the letter.

OK, one question, knowing fully well chiffon was OK with bege killing bigmom, is he going to allow bigmom eat the cake she baked?, from the look of things he doesn't even care, he's even more dumb than I thought. I tried to kill bigmom and he doesn't care if i slipped in poison in the cake I was baking, every time i think about his actions, his dumbness gets higher.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 26, 2017, Original Post Date: Nov 26, 2017 ---

I see no reason why oven shouldn't think chiffon didn't poison the cake.
Katakuri will never entertain the idea or allow bigmom eat the cake once he learns chiffon was part of the baking crew.

A raging bigmom, I think, is better than a dead bigmom, surely any smart bigmom child will know this.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

That's the thing, he has no idea what role chiffon will play to help complete the cake, he also didn't ask if her help was still needed and the first thing he does is to land a blow. That's some pretty cracked up behaviour for someone that's following the plan to the letter.

He knows what she does, he knows she bakes cakes. The cake is done.

OK, one question, knowing fully well chiffon was OK with bege killing bigmom, is he going to allow bigmom eat the cake she baked?, from the look of things he doesn't even care, he's even more dumb than I thought. I tried to kill bigmom and he doesn't care if i slipped in poison in the cake I was baking, every time i think about his actions, his dumbness gets higher.

If you gather context, didn't they (including Oven/Perospero/Katakuri) question how Chiffon would aid? Pudding said she'd make her listen and is holding a gun. With Pudding there and the chefs having known what's transpired, it's only logical he'd (and they) trust the Cake is edible since there's no reason to doubt Pudding's loyalty. Everyone including Katakuri has put their faith in her.

Ironic what's being called dumb really.

If the only person capable of preparing the Cake was Chiffon and no one else, then yes, but that's clearly not the case here. Pudding still tried to shoot Sanji despite failing, she made her sentiments known, and there's really no way to tell she's lying as they can only go by her actions. Only so much one can do when they're not psychic or able to read the thoughts of people.

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

How were they supposed to know the cake would be destroyed in the first place? or the picture broken? Your argument implies the SHs being in the cake is due to the BMP being overconfident. Explain exactly how they were supposed to know that?

This was why Katakuri couldn’t predict what was gonna happen next. Okay bunch of luffys invaded the hall, but Can I keep up with these invaders??

Please link the pages for that. Im actually not sure, but I believe perospero was still talking after all he’ll broke loose, it takes a second to shoot but he was telling them about how they are meat caught in a trap or some shit...
well I’ll honestly count out Vergo and niji. Niji knew Sanji will be pissed, so he could expect him to attack at least. If sanjis speed wasn’t that blinding, then niji should have blocked.