Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
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Apologies, got caught up in an argument and forgot to thankyou for sharing your experience, anyways, good to know it wasn't like mine.
I think as it stands now, majority of the fan base wants katakuri to be beaten. I know some that didn't entertain the idea at first, like @kkck, but he's now open to the possibility, especially if it's a gag victory and some buttons are pushed , personally I won't be happy if their fight is not concluded properly, like katakuri on the floor, knocked out, back on the ground kinda conclusion if you know what I mean.
From the look of things, it seems their fight will still continue in isolation without the whole town witnessing it, nonetheless, I guess it'll still have the same impart, all in all, the strawhats needs a victory here of any kind, gag, outside help, own power, you name it, it'll be a much needed moral boost for his whole alliance heading to wano to fight an indestructible dude and his disasters.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Agreed, it's his year after all.
Feels like I've seen the thread before, can't remember when, I'll check it out to be sure.
I mean, I was never "closed" to the possibility. It's more like earlier in the arc I didn't see oda going in the direction of luffy actually defeating katakuri. If you looked at the arc, such a thing simply was beyond the scope of luffy's mission there. Luffy was there to save sanji, not beat big mom. Which was the reason he didn't got there with zoro or his armada. Realistically speaking luffy's goals were accomplished the moment sanji decided to walk away from his marriage. And you had luffy's gag victory over a lesser warrior than katakuri, an assasination attempt... And then after that all that was left was to escape. And then he faced katakuri at the mirror world... Where precisely zero of luffy's priorities should have changed. Not to mention that the manga by that point had conclusively proven katakuri was well stronger than luffy. Even before katakuri had any feats this would have been proven by luffy's gag victory over cracker. But then oda started introducing a bunch of context for such an outcome. You have katakuri being so overly reliant on COO along with gear 4 being perfectly capable of beating non COO katakuri... And then oda went a step further and made the point that haki could become arbitrarily more powerful in the middle of a battle... Which is barely better than FT's nakama powerups because at least there is a smidge of context but it is still ultimately bullshit. And more importantly, regardless of what people say arbitrary permanent powerups in the middle of a battle are relatively rare in OP, it's usually in between arcs that characters grow stronger rather than in the middle of them. Of course, there have been instances of characters becoming stronger in the middle of fights but again, those are rare. With this now oda would have introduced a way for not only luffy to grow arbitrarily stronger any time the plot demands it but also for the remaining strawhats. With this bullshit you could have every strawhat become a master haki user in between chapter frames because it's a normal thing for haki to do.
I mean, I was never "closed" to the possibility. It's more like earlier in the arc I didn't see oda going in the direction of luffy actually defeating katakuri. If you looked at the arc, such a thing simply was beyond the scope of luffy's mission there. Luffy was there to save sanji, not beat big mom. Which was the reason he didn't got there with zoro or his armada. Realistically speaking luffy's goals were accomplished the moment sanji decided to walk away from his marriage. And you had luffy's gag victory over a lesser warrior than katakuri, an assasination attempt... And then after that all that was left was to escape. And then he faced katakuri at the mirror world... Where precisely zero of luffy's priorities should have changed. Not to mention that the manga by that point had conclusively proven katakuri was well stronger than luffy. Even before katakuri had any feats this would have been proven by luffy's gag victory over cracker. But then oda started introducing a bunch of context for such an outcome. You have katakuri being so overly reliant on COO along with gear 4 being perfectly capable of beating non COO katakuri... And then oda went a step further and made the point that haki could become arbitrarily more powerful in the middle of a battle... Which is barely better than FT's nakama powerups because at least there is a smidge of context but it is still ultimately bullshit. And more importantly, regardless of what people say arbitrary permanent powerups in the middle of a battle are relatively rare in OP, it's usually in between arcs that characters grow stronger rather than in the middle of them. Of course, there have been instances of characters becoming stronger in the middle of fights but again, those are rare. With this now oda would have introduced a way for not only luffy to grow arbitrarily stronger any time the plot demands it but also for the remaining strawhats. With this bullshit you could have every strawhat become a master haki user in between chapter frames because it's a normal thing for haki to do.
I completely agree with you, the last thing I wanna see is for luffy to get game changing power up every fight, I prefer it comes gradually, better still, during fights, though, just as you've said, the flashback with silver definitely legitimates any power up he gets during fights, I just hope Oda doesn't abuse his new found pen-power (haki grows stronger facing stronger opponents).
As to the power up, I really have no objections to him gaining this power, coo may not be his favourite during fights, but, it's something he can totally improve on, I mean, apart from conquerors haki, coo is also a haki he used unintentionally, so, it won't be wrong if I say he's a natural, and that it won't take him as much efforts as it took katakuri.
Also, we don't know how long it took katakuri to get to that level, him stating he can't remember the last time he got hit implies it's not just recently he mastered it, he may very well have perfected it in his late twenties but that's just me speculating.
I think the main reason he'll be getting this power up is because Oda wants him to look at least a bit presentable to Kaido, He doesn't know how Kaido will be beaten, so I'm guessing this will make his job easy, probably a lot easier if we also include the pen-power.
I mean, I was never "closed" to the possibility. It's more like earlier in the arc I didn't see oda going in the direction of luffy actually defeating katakuri. If you looked at the arc, such a thing simply was beyond the scope of luffy's mission there. Luffy was there to save sanji, not beat big mom. Which was the reason he didn't got there with zoro or his armada. Realistically speaking luffy's goals were accomplished the moment sanji decided to walk away from his marriage. And you had luffy's gag victory over a lesser warrior than katakuri, an assasination attempt... And then after that all that was left was to escape. And then he faced katakuri at the mirror world... Where precisely zero of luffy's priorities should have changed. Not to mention that the manga by that point had conclusively proven katakuri was well stronger than luffy. Even before katakuri had any feats this would have been proven by luffy's gag victory over cracker. But then oda started introducing a bunch of context for such an outcome. You have katakuri being so overly reliant on COO along with gear 4 being perfectly capable of beating non COO katakuri... And then oda went a step further and made the point that haki could become arbitrarily more powerful in the middle of a battle... Which is barely better than FT's nakama powerups because at least there is a smidge of context but it is still ultimately bullshit. And more importantly, regardless of what people say arbitrary permanent powerups in the middle of a battle are relatively rare in OP, it's usually in between arcs that characters grow stronger rather than in the middle of them. Of course, there have been instances of characters becoming stronger in the middle of fights but again, those are rare. With this now oda would have introduced a way for not only luffy to grow arbitrarily stronger any time the plot demands it but also for the remaining strawhats. With this bullshit you could have every strawhat become a master haki user in between chapter frames because it's a normal thing for haki to do.
Isn’t the negative outlook a bit premature. We don’t even know if Luffy will get a power up this arc. Just because Ludfy wonders if he can do what Kata can doesn’t mean he will.
I mean we learned about awakening over a year ago and every one thought that’d be Luffy’s next power up but it hasn’t happened yet.
Maybe Luffy won’t get a power up this arc but start heading there. I doubt Oda is that straight forward. My guess is that Luffy’s CoO won’t get stronger this arc
Isn’t the negative outlook a bit premature. We don’t even know if Luffy will get a power up this arc. Just because Ludfy wonders if he can do what Kata can doesn’t mean he will.
I mean we learned about awakening over a year ago and every one thought that’d be Luffy’s next power up but it hasn’t happened yet.
Maybe Luffy won’t get a power up this arc but start heading there. I doubt Oda is that straight forward. My guess is that Luffy’s CoO won’t get stronger this arc
Ah, that is a very real possibility of course. I would very much like that scenario... as a reality check for luffy. So far he has been reasonably lucky since he left sanbaody. Hodi was worthless strengthwise, only the weaker strawhats would even find a challenge in him. The ceasar... Who almost killed luffy because luffy was screwing around. Then doflamingo against whom luffy won using all the help he could get. Luffy is about to take on a yonko, he needs to be more clear on what his limitations are. I wouldn't mind luffy showing exponentially increased abilities provided there is the time and context for it. I also don't want luffy to really get that far away from his other crewmates strengthwise. If luffy gets a significant boost in strength, enough to beat katakuri, then the implication would more or less be that he completely outclasses zoro for instance. And the other strawhats are also lagging a fair bit from where they should be strengthwise. I mean, can you imagine brook winning against pekoms or tamago? And those guys are nowhere near big mom's strongest warriors.
Ah, that is a very real possibility of course. I would very much like that scenario... as a reality check for luffy. So far he has been reasonably lucky since he left sanbaody. Hodi was worthless strengthwise, only the weaker strawhats would even find a challenge in him. The ceasar... Who almost killed luffy because luffy was screwing around. Then doflamingo against whom luffy won using all the help he could get. Luffy is about to take on a yonko, he needs to be more clear on what his limitations are. I wouldn't mind luffy showing exponentially increased abilities provided there is the time and context for it. I also don't want luffy to really get that far away from his other crewmates strengthwise. If luffy gets a significant boost in strength, enough to beat katakuri, then the implication would more or less be that he completely outclasses zoro for instance. And the other strawhats are also lagging a fair bit from where they should be strengthwise. I mean, can you imagine brook winning against pekoms or tamago? And those guys are nowhere near big mom's strongest warriors.
Woah woah wait there a minute, Zoro is a freaking beast right now and I'm not even sure Luffy is stronger than him, thing is we haven't even seen Zoro go out, he barely broke his sweat vs Pica and could pretty much hold his ground against Fujitora, not using any of his big guns. I say Luffy and Zoro are kind of on par right now, and they completely outclass Sanji. Luffy should receive a significant power up to outclass Zoro, which can be the case.
This is very much connected to their training, when Luffy was trained by Railegh and Zoro by Mihawk Sanji was running all over gay island from transvestites lol.
I completely agree with you, the last thing I wanna see is for luffy to get game changing power up every fight, I prefer it comes gradually, better still, during fights, though, just as you've said, the flashback with silver definitely legitimates any power up he gets during fights, I just hope Oda doesn't abuse his new found pen-power (haki grows stronger facing stronger opponents).
As to the power up, I really have no objections to him gaining this power, coo may not be his favourite during fights, but, it's something he can totally improve on, I mean, apart from conquerors haki, coo is also a haki he used unintentionally, so, it won't be wrong if I say he's a natural, and that it won't take him as much efforts as it took katakuri.
Also, we don't know how long it took katakuri to get to that level, him stating he can't remember the last time he got hit implies it's not just recently he mastered it, he may very well have perfected it in his late twenties but that's just me speculating.
I think the main reason he'll be getting this power up is because Oda wants him to look at least a bit presentable to Kaido, He doesn't know how Kaido will be beaten, so I'm guessing this will make his job easy, probably a lot easier if we also include the pen-power.
The difference ultimately is whether luffy gets stronger in the middle of fights for no reason other than oda saying that can happen contrary to a progression which results from luffy's experiences.
I don't really object to luffy mastering his observation haki further. I would just find it weird if suddenly his least developed haki type gets such a boost. If it was gradual and over time I could make sense of it. That said, such advance COO power would be a rather odd fit for luffy. When it comes to fights luffy rarely plans things, he mostly just goes with the flow in fights. Of course, such power could work wonders for luffy and basically anyone however considering luffy generally is about as bright as a potato sack (no offense to potato sacks intended), having an ability which you'd think is specifically meant for the more cerebral enemies is kinda odd.
Of course, I do not rule out the powerup, but I would rather luffy doesn't get something like this this easily. More so, if luffy even matches katakuri then that means he is dangerously close to his endgame strength. Once he matches katakuri then the guys that would be above him would be admirals and yonko. And there is a good chance he'd be looking at admirals at eyelevel so to speak.
Woah woah wait there a minute, Zoro is a freaking beast right now and I'm not even sure Luffy is stronger than him, thing is we haven't even seen Zoro go out, he barely broke his sweat vs Pica and could pretty much hold his ground against Fujitora, not using any of his big guns. I say Luffy and Zoro are kind of on par right now, and they completely outclass Sanji. Luffy should receive a significant power up to outclass Zoro, which can be the case.
This is very much connected to their training, when Luffy was trained by Railegh and Zoro by Mihawk Sanji was running all over gay island from transvestites lol.
Ah, zoro being strong goes without saying. But there is strength and there is strength.... I am not entirely sure that zoro did hold his own against fujitora. He did as far as we saw however it didn't seem like fujitora was really going all out. If fujitora really lives up to his admiral title then he is someone that could have finished doflamingo on his own much earlier than luffy did. And we know he didn't do just that specifically because he is overly cautious AND more importantly he had his own agenda when it comes to shichibukai. Zoro actually going toe to toe against someone who would be equal to sakasuki, kuzan or borsalino would make him more dangerous than most of the top 3 yonko commanders of any yonko crew. That said, it is absolutely true that zoro has largely breezed his way through the new world and I honestly have wondered if luffy is even stronger than the guy at times considering we have never seen zoro's azura post timeskip.
On the other hand there is another scenario.... Assuming the status quo did not change since the timeskip between luffy and zoro, luffy getting his powerup to defeat katakuri does pose a problem for said status quo. So in regards to that the possibilities are that zoro actually is stronger than luffy and the powerup is necessary for luffy to surpass zoro or the powerup in question which the arc has suggested would leave zoro completely behind. Unless zoro conveniently fought someone else who was bullshit levels of strong and conveniently got his haki powerup to keep up with luffy. Which is by no means an impossible scenario however I do have to say that if zoro does get such a fight and oda dares off screen it then I will never forgive oda.
Another possibility, which I honestly don't like too much, is that oda is actually setting up luffy, zoro and sanji for substantial powerups. I doubt sanji is not getting at least one decent fight in this arc and there is a fairly good chance, IMO, that he actually gets the physical enhancements his dad programmed into his DNA. Add luffy getting his katakuri powerup and whatever bullshit is going through... Then whatever bullshit zoro is going through, I doubt it is going to be smooth sailing for him.
Woah woah wait there a minute, Zoro is a freaking beast right now and I'm not even sure Luffy is stronger than him, thing is we haven't even seen Zoro go out, he barely broke his sweat vs Pica and could pretty much hold his ground against Fujitora, not using any of his big guns. I say Luffy and Zoro are kind of on par right now, and they completely outclass Sanji. Luffy should receive a significant power up to outclass Zoro, which can be the case.
This is very much connected to their training, when Luffy was trained by Railegh and Zoro by Mihawk Sanji was running all over gay island from transvestites lol.
While I do think Sanji fans blow his abilities out of proportion, Zoro fans are just as bad.
In no way did Zoro “hold his ground” against Fujitora.
Zoro is literally being crushed through the ground and is coughing out blood and is clearly tired after escaping. He escaped but didn’t even land a hit on Fujitora (Fuji blocked every attack). Everyone talks about how Vergo bested Sanji but Sanji did more damage to Vergo than Zoro did to Fujitora (don’t take this comment out of context, I know Fujitora is stronger than Vergo and am in no way saying Sanji is stronger than Zoro, I am merely pointing out that Zoro struggled against Fuji more so than the weaker Sanji struggled against his weaker opponent).
Zoro is clearly strong but he isn’t as strong as his fans make him out to be.
Also, just to show that Zoro isn’t perfect, see him get pressured by a bunny girl.
And for you to be comparing a teammate blind siding before time skip to something that happened post time skip vs someone who clearly did something to piss you off, I have to say you sir just made me lose interest in engaging in a conversation/discussion with you.
Blind-siding is the same pre-skip or post-skip. You know what blind-siding is right? Hitting an opponent from an angle they can't see and more so when they don't expect it. Why is that supposed to no longer be possible since the time-skip? Doesn't make much sense.
It was simply naive of him to think Bege will fully surrender without a fight.
If someone had a good shot in a hostage situation, and he’s certain he can hit the person holding hostage. Then he’d take it. Naïveté/overconfidence is what killed oven
Your statement here only works under the assumption you can either kill or completely incapacitate the person holding hostages. Oven isn't dead and was unlikely to die from a shot. In a realistic situation, Chiffon would be considered dead after this stunt Bege pulled.
Not at all over confidence, some things cannot be predicted. Bege is surrounded, he's the won in a position of power to set terms and conditions for Bege.
Your use of the word overconfidence is exaggerated. It's like saying falling asleep after setting up a security alarm, locking up one's windows, having the security dog on patrol and vigilant security guards on patrol, but still resulting in a breaking in is due to overconfidence. Overconfidence is being lax despite the chances of an incident or event being high, this was not the case, Oven is holding the deck of cards and Bege seemingly isn't, and in his situation is very hard to make such predictions.
@Hannibal Psyche I see reasons for Oven suspecting of Chiffon poisoning the cake, and even not trusting Pudding:
They just got betrayed by two of their sisters (Chiffon and Praline), and they don´t know how many other of their sisters and brothers could be working together to bring down Mama.
Actually, they have no idea Praline is involved in this, only Chiffon.
There's really no reason to suspect Pudding. I'm sure you wouldn't say this if Katakuri was the one in the kitchen. There's no reason to suspect someone who has proven themselves trustworthy until there's actual evidence.
If Pudding is a suspect despite her clean history, then everyone is a suspect regardless of history, Oven included and every other character.
It's also Brulee's powers that have been pretty instrumental. Why not suggest she's also a suspect too? Her powers have caused far more issues than the Cake which has only just been made.
Blind-siding is the same pre-skip or post-skip. You know what blind-siding is right? Hitting an opponent from an angle they can't see and more so when they don't expect it. Why is that supposed to no longer be possible since the time-skip? Doesn't make much sense.
Not at all.
Your statement here only works under the assumption you can either kill or completely incapacitate the person holding hostages. Oven isn't dead and was unlikely to die from a shot. In a realistic situation, Chiffon would be considered dead after this stunt Bege pulled.
Not at all over confidence, some things cannot be predicted. Bege is surrounded, he's the won in a position of power to set terms and conditions for Bege.
Your use of the word overconfidence is exaggerated. It's like saying falling asleep after setting up a security alarm, locking up one's windows, having the security dog on patrol and vigilant security guards on patrol, but still resulting in a breaking in is due to overconfidence. Overconfidence is being lax despite the chances of an incident or event being high, this was not the case, Oven is holding the deck of cards and Bege seemingly isn't, and in his situation is very hard to make such predictions.
Actually, they have no idea Praline is involved in this, only Chiffon.
There's really no reason to suspect Pudding. I'm sure you wouldn't say this if Katakuri was the one in the kitchen. There's no reason to suspect someone who has proven themselves trustworthy until there's actual evidence.
If Pudding is a suspect despite her clean history, then everyone is a suspect regardless of history, Oven included and every other character.
It's also Brulee's powers that have been pretty instrumental. Why not suggest she's also a suspect too? Her powers have caused far more issues than the Cake which has only just been made.
You said something along the lines of Sanji speed didn’t need let him land and attack when the opponent was ready for him...
see the difference is Sanji has haki post time skip. Doubt he woulda been caught that easily.
And ask again. Teammate attacking is not the same as niji and Sanji. Use that big smart brain of yours man. And to show the lack of similarities in your comparison, Zoro attacked from the back. Sanji attacked from the front where he could see it coming. Except ofay has said pre timeskip Sanji had eyes on his back, then your comparison is useless.
Cp9 was holding robin captive, in their own fortress, they didn’t think Luffy will lunch a full on attack as well. They were in their well secured house with all security systems in place .
The story is a story of pirate, you can’t expect people to cooperate fully. They only cooperate until they have a way out. It’s not like we’ve seen the outcome of Bege shooting oven. Probably not good but don’t jump to conclusions.
Wrong again, Observation Haki cannot be used whilst attacking, thus the reason why people get blind sided or surprise attacked. Haki doesn't make people invincible, something you clearly cannot understand.
I've said it before, you're pretty hypocritical and unable to be objective. Sanji with his apparent superior Observation failed to stop Judge from grabbing his legs. Observation doesn't make characters invisible and more so when it's not as powerful as Katakuri's.
Bege entered Totland to take Big Mom's head and decided to join Big Mom when faced with Big Mom's forces. Being a Pirate doesn't mean one won't co-operate. Atrocious reasoning.
He's not dead, he's fine and even Pudding is worried because he's mad. Like I said before, doesn't require being a genius, anyone who doesn't try to negotiate with someone possessing hostage is for the most part stupid if there's no sure way to kill or incapacitate. All Bege has really done is make Oven mad and that even gives Bege less room to negotiate and makes it highly likely for Oven to kill her as a result. It's a given things will turn out to work to favour the SH alliance, but the fact nonetheless is Bege's stunt here is not an intelligent one.
And as usual, your inability to grasp context highlighted again.
Robin wasn't a hostage, she was a prisoner and an asset as she can read the Poneglyph.
She wasn't going to be killed because of her abilities to read the Poneglyph, they were going to user her to find Ancient Weapons before doing away with her.
If Robin was a hostage, all the WG needed to do to stop the SHs from attacking was threaten to kill her there and then, they couldn't do that because she wasn't a hostage, but an asset. If you don't know what an asset is, get a dictionary or use google.
Chiffon is going to be killed, she's not invaluable asset, Robin is. Luffy and co. fighting to take Robin was a power-struggle of sorts, Chiffon isn't, if she dies, the Big Mom Pirates don't lose anything. The only true asset there is Pudding with her ability to possibly decipher the Poneglyph.
Wrong again, Observation Haki cannot be used whilst attacking, thus the reason why people get blind sided or surprise attacked. Haki doesn't make people invincible, something you clearly cannot understand.
I've said it before, you're pretty hypocritical and unable to be objective. Sanji with his apparent superior Observation failed to stop Judge from grabbing his legs. Observation doesn't make characters invisible and more so when it's not as powerful as Katakuri's.
If you were remotely intelligent, you'd know the context was the fact that not anticipating something leaves one open to unexpected attacks.
Poor reasoning.
Bege entered Totland to take Big Mom's head and decided to join Big Mom when faced with Big Mom's forces. Being a Pirate doesn't mean one won't co-operate. Atrocious reasoning.
He's not dead, he's fine and even Pudding is worried because he's mad. Like I said before, doesn't require being a genius, anyone who doesn't try to negotiate with someone possessing hostage is for the most part stupid if there's no sure way to kill or incapacitate. All Bege has really done is make Oven mad and that even gives Bege less room to negotiate and makes it highly likely for Oven to kill her as a result. It's a given things will turn out to work to favour the SH alliance, but the fact nonetheless is Bege's stunt here is not an intelligent one.
And as usual, your inability to grasp context highlighted again.
Robin wasn't a hostage, she was a prisoner and an asset as she can read the Poneglyph.
She wasn't going to be killed because of her abilities to read the Poneglyph, they were going to user her to find Ancient Weapons before doing away with her.
If Robin was a hostage, all the WG needed to do to stop the SHs from attacking was threaten to kill her there and then, they couldn't do that because she wasn't a hostage, but an asset. If you don't know what an asset is, get a dictionary or use google.
Chiffon is going to be killed, she's not invaluable asset, Robin is. Luffy and co. fighting to take Robin was a power-struggle of sorts, Chiffon isn't, if she dies, the Big Mom Pirates don't lose anything. The only true asset there is Pudding with her ability to possibly decipher the Poneglyph.
Okay you really like cutting out posts, and cutting bits to make you look right, which doesn’t help you tbh.
You did say something along the lines of, probably in previous threads or this one “Sanji has not been able to hit someone, who was aware of him....”
Oh btw see how cutting my replies makes you seem right??? Cos when I mentioned CoO it was in regards to Zoro sneaking up on Sanji pre timeskip, not about Sanji attacking judge. I guess Vergo didn’t anticipate Sanji will kick him the second time. There was a reason for Sanji to attack niji, and it was an attack to his face. Zoro has no reason to take out Sanji, and he did it from the back. Two different scenarios. You can dodge a ball coming from the front. But a ball you can’t see at all from the back will hit you.but yeah Once again you proved you’re a brick wall.
He cooperated for a reason. It was his plan to still take big moms head. He had a fucking plan. What does this highlight, he went along with big mom until he saw a chance to do hurt her. Do you know if his plan was to shoot oven to free chiffon so someone can rescue her??? Because this is possible as well, but your big brain don’t process things this way.
Just because he’s mad doesn’t mean he can’t be defeated.
Why couldn’t they?? You think the WG can’t lie?? Cos they’ve lied recently if you think they can/don’t.
Of course it's not solely to get away, it's simply an ability to enhance movement. How it's used will centre around movement. Point I was trying to make is that Soru-esque speed that is seen in movement will not be seen when throwing a kick or a punch or tilt/contorting one's body to evade an attack.It's like Kizaru's ability to move at light-speed, his fighting is nonetheless not at light-speed.
Sanjis ability just because I don’t feel like we’ve seen a very good example of him in a fight like we have with most of the others. Now having said THAT, hehe, I don’t understand why people are going out of their way to push the theory that Sanjis pulling an Emperor Palpatine. Hiding his SUPER MEGA strength
...because none of these fights met your expectations, he''s not been fighting to the best of his abilities. That sounds like an excuse. Against Vergo, it's understandable because he was injured, that much is a context that must be acknowledged, but at the same time, he doesn't possess Hardening which questions how much of a threat he'd be against Vergo.
Of course, might invoke that he has it, but didn't use it, but wouldn't Sanji be foolish to not have used Hardening on his fractured leg when fighting Vergo to at least protect himself some more and even enhance the power of his own attacks to at least effective deter Vergo? It's not like using Hardening would exhaust him. And then you have various other situations where Hardening could have been utilised, but wasn't. That alone proves Oda has chosen not to give Sanji Hardening especially when he's failed to display it for so long. It's impossible to present someone that one doesn't possess.
Then you have all those fights where Sanji has never been able to assert himself. Do we really think Oda doesn't know how to draw a dominant display if he wanted to? He's drawn all of Sanji's fights like this for a reason, to showcase how he doesn't really compare to Luffy or Zoro. It's unlikely he has any hidden power. Oda doesn't write his stories like they're DBZ pstory lines.If a character is stronger than his opponent, it's pretty clear-cut.
It's obvious that since the skip, Sanji has not been anywhere as close to being as formidable as he was pre-skip. If his performances in the New World were exactly as they were against all his opponents, but against, women, then I could see how one could claim he's holding back, but it isn't the case.
People just don't want to accept what they see, that's why I personally hate character favouritism. It makes people blind to facts just because they can't accept their favourite character has a flaw or isn't performing well against opponents. It stops people from being objective.
Hating Sanji or not, it's a fact that Oda is going to give him a power-up eventually, Oda has to carry on with what he established from the beginning until now. If people really want to claim that Sanji is really strong and formidable with his current performances, then they're as far as I'm concerned convincing themselves into believing so.
Just maybe the reason Oda has presented Sanji as being relatively weak for the mean time is to make his captivity and ordeal realistic and believable. If Sanji were knocking opponents left right and centre similarly as Luffy and Zoro have been doing, this WCI arc might not be as dramatic and as believable as it currently is.
You do realise that the pills make the user 2x stronger than they were? And then x2? Makes it x4? How many pills did Hody take? 10, 20, 30? He was popping them like Candy.
1 pill - 1x2 = 2 - double strength of a Fishman
2 pills - 2x2 = 4 - Quadruple strength of a Fishman
3 pills - 2x3 = 6 sextuple strength of a Fishman
20 pills - 2x20 = 40x the strength of a Fishman
100 pills - 2x100 = 200x the strength of a Fishman
200 pills - 2x200 = 400x the strength of a Fishman
A Fishman has the strength of 10 men on average, Hody is a trained soldier who was popping so many pills. Hody drugged up is so absurdly underrated because people don't quite appreciate just how powerful those pills are.
The difference ultimately is whether luffy gets stronger in the middle of fights for no reason other than oda saying that can happen contrary to a progression which results from luffy's experiences.
I don't really object to luffy mastering his observation haki further. I would just find it weird if suddenly his least developed haki type gets such a boost. If it was gradual and over time I could make sense of it. That said, such advance COO power would be a rather odd fit for luffy. When it comes to fights luffy rarely plans things, he mostly just goes with the flow in fights. Of course, such power could work wonders for luffy and basically anyone however considering luffy generally is about as bright as a potato sack (no offense to potato sacks intended), having an ability which you'd think is specifically meant for the more cerebral enemies is kinda odd.
Of course, I do not rule out the powerup, but I would rather luffy doesn't get something like this this easily. More so, if luffy even matches katakuri then that means he is dangerously close to his endgame strength. Once he matches katakuri then the guys that would be above him would be admirals and yonko. And there is a good chance he'd be looking at admirals at eyelevel so to speak.
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Ah, zoro being strong goes without saying. But there is strength and there is strength.... I am not entirely sure that zoro did hold his own against fujitora. He did as far as we saw however it didn't seem like fujitora was really going all out. If fujitora really lives up to his admiral title then he is someone that could have finished doflamingo on his own much earlier than luffy did. And we know he didn't do just that specifically because he is overly cautious AND more importantly he had his own agenda when it comes to shichibukai. Zoro actually going toe to toe against someone who would be equal to sakasuki, kuzan or borsalino would make him more dangerous than most of the top 3 yonko commanders of any yonko crew. That said, it is absolutely true that zoro has largely breezed his way through the new world and I honestly have wondered if luffy is even stronger than the guy at times considering we have never seen zoro's azura post timeskip.
On the other hand there is another scenario.... Assuming the status quo did not change since the timeskip between luffy and zoro, luffy getting his powerup to defeat katakuri does pose a problem for said status quo. So in regards to that the possibilities are that zoro actually is stronger than luffy and the powerup is necessary for luffy to surpass zoro or the powerup in question which the arc has suggested would leave zoro completely behind. Unless zoro conveniently fought someone else who was bullshit levels of strong and conveniently got his haki powerup to keep up with luffy. Which is by no means an impossible scenario however I do have to say that if zoro does get such a fight and oda dares off screen it then I will never forgive oda.
Another possibility, which I honestly don't like too much, is that oda is actually setting up luffy, zoro and sanji for substantial powerups. I doubt sanji is not getting at least one decent fight in this arc and there is a fairly good chance, IMO, that he actually gets the physical enhancements his dad programmed into his DNA. Add luffy getting his katakuri powerup and whatever bullshit is going through... Then whatever bullshit zoro is going through, I doubt it is going to be smooth sailing for him.
Zoro hasn't gone up against decent opponents though, whereas Luffy's gone up against tough opponents in the last two arcs. And honestly, the only thing that made Zoro inferior was matchups - he didn't have a rubber body that'd give him advantage against the likes of Lucci and Crocodile, otherwise Zoro would probably be stronger. If Luffy fought Daz Bones, he'd have lost unless he could deal with Bones' sword body and hardness. I'm pretty sure Luffy and Zoro are extremely close in terms of strength, and that their respective skillsets make them suited to particular sort of enemy. Has Luffy ever fought a swordsman boss? Zoro fight someone that could easily wound him and wasn't a swordsman (Lucci being an example)?
I still see the trio being pretty close in strength, at least before the timeskip they were. We saw Luffy go all out but not Zoro, who breezed through, or Sanji, who had some trouble but showed better feats as well that makes one wonder.
Seriously.. This argument about sanji is becoming absurdly ridiculous.. Also if fodder navy soldiers could use CoA in stopping the bird cage m very sure sanji can
Sanji can use Color of Armament. Luffy verifies this when he listed himself, Zoro, Sanji, and Law as people who can use haki to deal with Caesar's logia devil fruit. And the Judge further confirmed this when Sanji blocked his blade with his leg, and the Judge was surprised that Sanji could use haki as well. One Piece Wikia also mentions Sanji can use Koka to harden his leg, but it's confusing as he wears black pants.
Okay you really like cutting out posts, and cutting bits to make you look right, which doesn’t help you tbh.
You did say something along the lines of, probably in previous threads or this one “Sanji has not been able to hit someone, who was aware of him....”
I mentioned CoO it was in regards to Zoro sneaking up on Sanji pre timeskip, not about Sanji attacking judge. I guess Vergo didn’t anticipate Sanji will kick him the second time.
Wrong again, lol. Sanji got caught by Judge despite this being the time-skip and him having Observation.
Like I said, you can't comprehend context. Obsevation doesn't makea character invincible. Any character can still get off guard when they're not expecting something.
Lol, did I save Vergo was invincible? No. Point is he wasn't fazed by Sanji, Sanji was complaining about how hard his body was, Vergo's ability to tank is very formidable, thus the reason Sanji broke his shin.
The point was he'd been restrained by the fact they had Zeff, therefore, they never expected he'd attack. Like I said, you don't understand how context works.
In fact, he had a reason to not attack Niji and not give in to provocation because they could have decided that as being enough to have Zeff executed.
Anyone who would attack someone with a hostage is stupid especially when they know that person's life is in danger and not up for negotiation. More so since he didn't even know under what circumstances Zeff was a hostage or if he was being held prisoner. He had no information at all.
He cooperated for a reason. It was his plan to still take big moms head. He had a fucking plan. What does this highlight, he went along with big mom until he saw a chance to do hurt her.
Brulee said Kidd, Urouge, Apoo and Bege all came to WCI claiming they'd become the future Pirate King, and failed. Bege only joined after he realised that Big Mom was too strong for him to take on and he never even got to see Big Mom in the first place.
It's not like he just decided to join, he had to cooperate. He even had to marry into the Big Mom family. Even the Sun Pirates co-operated with Big Mom and Aladine married Praline. Just because one is a Pirate doesn't mean you can't co-operate, that nonsensical rationale.
Do you know if his plan was to shoot oven to free chiffon so someone can rescue her??? Because this is possible as well, but your big brain don’t process things this way.
Like I said, it's clear things will favour the alliance, if that's too difficult for you to grasp, it's understandable. You've exhibited enough.
Doesn't change the fact that what Bege is doing is risky, and from Oven's perspective as is the case with anyone in a position of power, Bege's actions were reckless and not the most intelligent.
But go on, he shot Oven with a shot that won't kill him or knock him unconscious so someone could save her while... Oven is up, not mortally wounded and is angry and Chiffon isn't that far from him, and Bege is still at sea. Would be nice for you to elaborate some more. seems like you're on to something.
Lol, who said because he's mad he can't be defeated? Again, you're failing to read properly, I don't know if this is just poor comprehension on your part.
The fact that he's furious now means danger that Chiffon is exposed to is much more imminent.
Lol, another godawful question. You clearly don't understand the importance of Robin. They can't lie about something that everyone of the SHs already know. You can only lie about things people don't know about. The SHs know she has the means to awaken the Ancient Weapons, therefore, they couldn't kill her if they wanted until they got their Ancient Weapon.
Fairy Tail is a good Manga, just a recommendation.
Zoro hasn't gone up against decent opponents though, whereas Luffy's gone up against tough opponents in the last two arcs. And honestly, the only thing that made Zoro inferior was matchups - he didn't have a rubber body that'd give him advantage against the likes of Lucci and Crocodile, otherwise Zoro would probably be stronger. If Luffy fought Daz Bones, he'd have lost unless he could deal with Bones' sword body and hardness. I'm pretty sure Luffy and Zoro are extremely close in terms of strength, and that their respective skillsets make them suited to particular sort of enemy. Has Luffy ever fought a swordsman boss? Zoro fight someone that could easily wound him and wasn't a swordsman (Lucci being an example)?
I still see the trio being pretty close in strength, at least before the timeskip they were. We saw Luffy go all out but not Zoro, who breezed through, or Sanji, who had some trouble but showed better feats as well that makes one wonder..
Luffy having a fruit or not is a non issue IMO. Sure, the fruit helps and absolutely adds to his strength and capability but if he didn't have it he'd simply have to fight differently. Again, non issue.
With zoro I would only be concerned about him being left behind by luffy if luffy does get a power boost that allows him to beat katakuri. It would be a very substantial boost very quickly. IF luffy and zoro are currently roughly comparable as they usually seem to have been in the past then luffy getting such a boost would absolutely have zoro biting the dust. However sanji does seem to have been left behind. Meanwhile zoro has yet to need azura and luffy has gotten to a point where gear 2-3 can be used casually without significant or any drain to his body and instead has the substantially more powerful gear as his strongest form you have using his diable jambe which seems... underwhelming at best. Sanji hasn't even shown hardening at this point. I am sure oda is planning for sanji to get more however as things are I don't see how sanji has been anything but left behind. Honestly, in his case I am banking on him actually getting the physical enhancements his brothers enjoy so that he can catch up.
Sanji can use Color of Armament. Luffy verifies this when he listed himself, Zoro, Sanji, and Law as people who can use haki to deal with Caesar's logia devil fruit. And the Judge further confirmed this when Sanji blocked his blade with his leg, and the Judge was surprised that Sanji could use haki as well. One Piece Wikia also mentions Sanji can use Koka to harden his leg, but it's confusing as he wears black pants.
Of course, might invoke that he has it, but didn't use it, but wouldn't Sanji be foolish to not have used Hardening on his fractured leg when fighting Vergo to at least protect himself some more and even enhance the power of his own attacks to at least effective deter Vergo? It's not like using Hardening would exhaust him. And then you have various other situations where Hardening could have been utilised, but wasn't. That alone proves Oda has chosen not to give Sanji Hardening especially when he's failed to display it for so long. It's impossible to present someone that one doesn't possess.
I actually agree that Sanji probably doesn’t have hardening but I don’t think the “if he had it he would’ve used it by now” argument works. If it did then why didn’t Zoro use hardening in his fight against Fujitora? Fujitora is clearly Zoro’s strongest opponent thus far but he didn’t use hardening to attack him.
There are lots of instances where people don’t use their abilities when they should. Why hasn’t Sanji used hell memories on any of his recent opponents? Why did Luffy not use Gear 4 earlier against Kata who was clearly stronger and faster? Why didn’t Kata use block mochi earlier so he could get to his tea time? Why didn’t Mingo use awakening when he was first getting ragdolled by G4 luffy? Why didn’t Ace or Boa or Mingo use CoC to help thin some of the fodder at Marineford? I mean, by the same logic, why didn’t Sengoku use hardening when he was trying to execute Ace? (I know this one is a bad example because it was pre TS before hardening had been established). Some of these examples can be justified but not all of them. Point is, people in OP don’t always demonstrate their abilities when logically they should.
With that being said, even though I don’t think your point is definitive, it is persuasive and further supported by other facts as well. For starters Sanji didn’t have a CoA teacher like Zoro and Luffy. Plus, his diable jambe technique amplifies his offensive power as is so he hasn’t really had a need up to this point to train his CoA beyond its basic level.
Not really. Sanji got under Oven by jumping at him at eye level.
You do realise that the pills make the user 2x stronger than they were? And then x2? Makes it x4? How many pills did Hody take? 10, 20, 30? He was popping them like Candy.
1 pill - 1x2 = 2 - double strength of a Fishman
2 pills - 2x2 = 4 - Quadruple strength of a Fishman
3 pills - 2x3 = 6 sextuple strength of a Fishman
20 pills - 2x20 = 40x the strength of a Fishman
100 pills - 2x100 = 200x the strength of a Fishman
200 pills - 2x200 = 400x the strength of a Fishman
A Fishman has the strength of 10 men on average, Hody is a trained soldier who was popping so many pills. Hody drugged up is so absurdly underrated because people don't quite appreciate just how powerful those pills are.
Did you read the entire post or are you just choosing a portion of it out of context? I mean, there's a reason I said "drugged up Hodi" and not just "Hodi."
Luffy having a fruit or not is a non issue IMO. Sure, the fruit helps and absolutely adds to his strength and capability but if he didn't have it he'd simply have to fight differently. Again, non issue.
With zoro I would only be concerned about him being left behind by luffy if luffy does get a power boost that allows him to beat katakuri. It would be a very substantial boost very quickly. IF luffy and zoro are currently roughly comparable as they usually seem to have been in the past then luffy getting such a boost would absolutely have zoro biting the dust. However sanji does seem to have been left behind. Meanwhile zoro has yet to need azura and luffy has gotten to a point where gear 2-3 can be used casually without significant or any drain to his body and instead has the substantially more powerful gear as his strongest form you have using his diable jambe which seems... underwhelming at best. Sanji hasn't even shown hardening at this point. I am sure oda is planning for sanji to get more however as things are I don't see how sanji has been anything but left behind. Honestly, in his case I am banking on him actually getting the physical enhancements his brothers enjoy so that he can catch up.
It is an issue because the fruit gives him an advantage that most in his crew do not have. It's not just helping, it's one of the reasons why he can take most attacks and some stabs like Shigan without too much damage to his body. I think even Lucci said that if Luffy's body was normal, Luffy would have had a hole in his neck and been dead. Hell, his rubber body was likely why he could survive Crocodile and even free Ace.
How do you know though? Zoro has yet to show anything even close to what he's capable of, whereas we've seen Luffy go all out. It's iffy that Luffy getting a new powerup here would put him significantly above Zoro, but then I think Gear 2 alone put him above Zoro until Zoro showed he can deal with the speed. And I still stand by the fact that we haven't seen Sanji go all out yet either. Diable Jambe is underwhelming, I agree.
But we do know he can use hardening. Why else would Luffy list him as one of the ones who can deal with Caesar/use haki, and why would Judge point out Sanji being competent enough to use haki after blocking his blade?
I actually agree that Sanji probably doesn’t have hardening but I don’t think the “if he had it he would’ve used it by now” argument works. If it did then why didn’t Zoro use hardening in his fight against Fujitora? Fujitora is clearly Zoro’s strongest opponent thus far but he didn’t use hardening to attack him.
It does work. Hardening is nothing special. If you need it, you use it.
It's like having a broken leg, having access to getting a cast, but not using it. The only conclusion is, Sanji's lacking in intelligence and has Hardening, or he doesn't. Sanji is one of the most intelligent in the crew and it's more like that he doesn't.
If you also notice, Sword fighters tend to not expend Haki as much as people who fight with their fists. Swords are sharp and made of steel. Invisible Armament alone should suffice in doing adequate degrees of damage. Vergo for the majority of the time used his Invisible Haki, at least it's reasonable to assume he did. He only usd Hardening when Tashigi threw a slash towards himself, and he blocked it, otherwise, he'd possibly have been injured.
Zoro and Fujitora are Sword fighters. They don't need to waste Hardening the way people who brawl with their fists do. A fist isn't like a Sword that's made of metal, it makes sense that they need that boost to increase their power and thereby increase capacity for destruction; we see this with Luffy, Chinjao, Joker, Katakuri, etc. Even Cracker didin't make use of Hardening much, this is something all Swords fighters have consistently pulled off.
There are lots of instances where people don’t use their abilities when they should. Why hasn’t Sanji used hell memories on any of his recent opponents? Why did Luffy not use Gear 4 earlier against Kata who was clearly stronger and faster? Why didn’t Kata use block mochi earlier so he could get to his tea time? Why didn’t Mingo use awakening when he was first getting ragdolled by G4 luffy? Why didn’t Ace or Boa or Mingo use CoC to help thin some of the fodder at Marineford? I mean, by the same logic, why didn’t Sengoku use hardening when he was trying to execute Ace? (I know this one is a bad example because it was pre TS before hardening had been established). Some of these examples can be justified but not all of them. Point is, people in OP don’t always demonstrate their abilities when logically they should.
Do you remember the Cracker fight? Luffy exhausted his base, Gear 2nd, 3rd before using 4th. No one goes straight to their most powerful technique unless they've ascertained their least powerful techniques won't suffice.
Katakuri was dominating his fight with Luffy without the Block Mochi. He only begun to increase the intensity the more he saw that Luffy was proving far more troublesome than he knew. That's when he started to use his spear and started doubling up on his attacks because Luffy's evasive prowess was becoming much more problematic. He only resort to Block Mochi when he was furious and when he realised Luffy's Gear 4th was too powerful for the standard Block attacks, he had to use peerless donuts. It's consistent.
If you re-read Dressrosa, you'd know Joker was also exhausting his options before utilising Awakening. He kicked Luffy with athlete thread, a kick that shot Luffy very far distances originally, and he realised here that the kick was useless.
Clearly, he had high expectations for this attack, but it fell short. If you read on further, it's literally after ascertaining he couldn't go toe to toe with Luffy that he decided to use Awakening exactly as stated earlier. No one goes uses their most powerful attacks unless they know their weaker attacks aren't effective via trial.
Could even question why didn't Luffy use Gear 4th in Fishman Island. Before that, he was haemorrhaging after Hody bit him. That haemorrhage almost led to his death and he needed a blood transfusion. If Luffy is Haemorrhaging and uses Gear 4th which uses Gear 2nd's mechanics, and on top of that strains him physically, he might have haemorrhaged a lot quicker than he did just using Gear 3rd to finish off Hody. We see how he has only just started adapting to it, and how he was only able to throw one blow, one Gear 4th attack might not have been sufficient. Sometimes, more is better than quality, and Gear 3rd seemed like the best course of action for that situation.
Not sure this is even a valid question here, why Ace, Boa or Joker used King's Haki? For one, Ace used it unconsciously as a child, doesn't mean he learnt how to use it. Luffy used it unconsciously, and it's not until Rayleigh taught him that he learnt to use it. Before Rayleigh even taught Luffy, he referenced the fact that Luffy had shown he had this innate power before teaching him how to use it. As for why Boa didn't use it or Joker, not really valid questions, in what context is King's Haki supposed to be imperatively used?
Regarding Marineford, you do know we didn't see anyone use Hardening. You're also aware that we never see Hardening until the time skip where Luffy is taught how to use Haki. You do realise we see and mostly learn and know of things from the perspective of the protagonist and his crew. If Luffy couldn't discern Hardening or even Invisible Armament, how can we? It's not until Luffy learns Haki that we begin to discern Invisible Haki and Hardening. So, not sure how you can claim with such certainty that Sengoku never used Hardening and it may not have been imperative for him to do so.
Characters do use their best abilities when necessary. He's done his best, he's just not strong enough. Can't expect a character to do more than they can't.
For starters Sanji didn’t have a CoA teacher like Zoro and Luffy. Plus, his diable jambe technique amplifies his offensive power as is so he hasn’t really had a need up to this point to train his CoA beyond its basic level.
Very convenient excuse. He's not needed to train his CoA beyond Invisible. So much for being ambitious. I don't think the teacher is the issue, it's talent. Could be taught by the best and put through the toughest training, wouldn't matter if one didn't have the talent. It's like taking the most difficult course at University and having the best teachers, but if one lacks the intellectual capacity, the talent and determination, it won't matter.
How you can say he's not needed Hardening when he broke his shin is beyond me. It'd have been very beneficial if he had Hardening. Even his Diable Jambe will be more powerful and benefit from Hardening.
Sanji has looked awful since the skip, that much is a fact when compared to his pre-skip where he wasn't being treated as almost comic relief. It's clear he's levels below the others. If anything, it's necessary for plot to have Sanji this weak in order for his situation to be as authentic as possible for WCI. It's because of his weakness we've seen Sanji in tears, we've seen him helpless, broken and extremely vulnerable. Nonetheless, there's no doubt he will get his due, looks more like his narrative journey before he gets his strength developed on par or to a level where he can compete with Luffy and Zoro.
And when he kicked Oven, he was right below Oven. Oven was looking upward at pound, Sanji is not up. Not sure how you claim Sanji as being at eye level.
OP Wiki aren't infallible, they're not entirely accurate. Wiki are just a bunch of forums who discuss and come to a conclusion, no different from this forums. So, just because they write something doesn't make it accurate.
Fact is Sanji has no Hardening. And Oda has shown Hardening in Black backgrounds before, fact.
Luffy having a fruit or not is a non issue IMO. Sure, the fruit helps and absolutely adds to his strength and capability but if he didn't have it he'd simply have to fight differently. Again, non issue.
With zoro I would only be concerned about him being left behind by luffy if luffy does get a power boost that allows him to beat katakuri. It would be a very substantial boost very quickly. IF luffy and zoro are currently roughly comparable as they usually seem to have been in the past then luffy getting such a boost would absolutely have zoro biting the dust. However sanji does seem to have been left behind. Meanwhile zoro has yet to need azura and luffy has gotten to a point where gear 2-3 can be used casually without significant or any drain to his body and instead has the substantially more powerful gear as his strongest form you have using his diable jambe which seems... underwhelming at best. Sanji hasn't even shown hardening at this point. I am sure oda is planning for sanji to get more however as things are I don't see how sanji has been anything but left behind. Honestly, in his case I am banking on him actually getting the physical enhancements his brothers enjoy so that he can catch up.
It almost feels that Oda is rotating Sanji out of "monster trio" to replace him with Jimbei, cause that shark is no joke. And I don't have favourites between Luffy, Sanji and Zoro, just trying to be objective and enjoy the story. So what are the objective facts?
Luffy was trained for 1.5 years by a living legend, right hand of Roger and incredibly powerful guy, might be one of the most powerful in the story and with pretty much unlimited experience and knowledge. Mastered all kinds of haki and improved stamina drastically. Defeated Hordy, Doflamingo, Caesar, Cracker and lots of weaker opponents. Lost to BM army, was pushed back by BM and Katakuri.
Zoro was trained by best living swordsman, who's rival to one of the yonkos, who is also expert in haki and incredibly experienced. Mastered at least 2 kinds of haki and improved stamina+swordsman skills drastically. Won against Monet (not impressive), cut down a mountain sized rock in 20 pieces and full hardening Pica (which is more impressive), had a minor encounter vs Fujitora and managed to push him back with a basic attack (this can be twisted any way, but I'd say Zoro could hold his ground against admiral with hax DF, even though Fujitora wasn't very motivated to fight)
Sanji was trained by Ivankov (Who didn't show that much) and 100 transvestite karate fighters, who gave him super food recipes. Learned how to geppo, which even fodder cp9 could do, didn't show any new techniques other than rainbow strike, which was not enough to even make Doflamingo use haki to protect from. Almost broke his leg vs Vergo and nothing much other than that.
Looks like we have a monster duo and a great cook on our hands, but I don't think Oda brought all this Germa tech thing in story for nothing, looks like these suits actually improve abilities and power overall, so maybe Sanji will catch up. But for now I think Luffy, Zoro and Jimbei are somewhere close in terms of power levels and should be considered the new monster trio. Sanji is closer to Brook, Franky and Chopper at this point of story. I'd say even Brook is WAY more useful and effective SH member than Sanji.
But this is not a very productive topic since we haven't seen Zoro or Sanji go all out yet, and in Zoro case I believe he has some insane technique up his sleeve (you can laugh, but I also think he might have Mihawks eye transplanted) and I don't see what could Sanji get from Ivankov which can bring him up on a different power level, eye wink or some power up hormones to go?
I'd really prefer to see some Zoro and Law action instead of Sanji, so looking forward to see the Wano team.
, personally I won't be happy if their fight is not concluded properly, like katakuri on the floor, knocked out, back on the ground kinda conclusion if you know what I mean
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