Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.
It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.
For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.
As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.
This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.
...his training wouldn't have been better if he went to the long leg tribe because it's a freaking manga, and the mangaka was going to make his training "results" whatever he chose to make them. Sanji isn't a real person, so sending him "elsewhere" wouldn't have changed the result.
(Sorry if that comes off pissy, but we do need to remember this isn't real, no one "trained", it's all a story that will go wherever the author wants it to).
It was an opinion, to which you gave yours. So no hard feelings. I just thought long legs being about fighting with legs coulda been the best for Sanji. But a kingdom with gay karate fighters too works okay.
Also it’s a discussion. You give opinions and views during discussions
Well, Law's the captain, ain't he? Aren't they their crew's best fighters in most cases? And there's also the matter of a character's purpose for being on a journey... Is it being the strongest? How strong does one need to be to reach one's goal? Some characters are ok with a certain amount of fighting ability because it's high enough:
-To not be a burden
-To help out during battles(hell, sometimes they can do more than just pull their own weight and prove decisive in a crisis)
-And eventually reach their goals
Well I thought you might say that but Aladdin is another doctor that is quite strong. Octopus man when he was with Arlong was a cook and he was pretty much their second strongest. Laffitte is a navigator and seems strong enough(saying this as he was able to infiltrate marejois, maybe a bit of an assumption but he’s a younkous crew member, he should be strong).
Once again role doesn’t mean you can’t fight. That logic just doesn’t pass.
Can’t say ones role determines how useful they are.
PS: saying the captains want the one piece doesn’t mean the value of the surbodinates dreams are trash, and they have weaker resolve.
Only way for Sanji or Zoro to be replaced is if they die, otherwise they'll remain a part of Monster Trio, and Jinbei's addition will turn it into a quartet. This arc shows that Jinbei's gonna be extremely vital, and if Sanji's weak, then the Straw Hat pirates will be in huge trouble. Fact is, the Straw Hats will need powerful fighters on their team, and as we can see, one less powerful fighter will make things very difficult even if Jinbei is vastly superior to Sanji.
However, the Monster Quartet would make sense. Luffy takes on the boss (like Kaidou or Akainu) while Zoro, Jinbei, and Sanji take on the commanders/admirals that would serve under Kaidou or Akainu.
From what we've seen of yonkou crews, the yonkou is LEAGUES above their commanders in regards to power levels. If we are to assume that is the same with a Pirate King crew then the monster trio concept is completely fine with the inclusion of Jimbei. Luffy is their leader and would be above the monster trio.
Outlier or not. The role of most captain aren’t known. I’m just saying your role on a ship doesn’t matter much. You can be strong. And it’s just not smart to say because of a characters role/dream he’s meant to be weaker. Going by that thinking the characters mentioned shouldn’t be strong. I use “fair point” argument against “unfair argument". When you use fair point to state why someone shouldn’t be strong, I’ll reverse it.
Thing is we also barely know the roles of most people on crews. The main ones we know are SH and a bit of others.
Only way for Sanji or Zoro to be replaced is if they die, otherwise they'll remain a part of Monster Trio, and Jinbei's addition will turn it into a quartet. This arc shows that Jinbei's gonna be extremely vital, and if Sanji's weak, then the Straw Hat pirates will be in huge trouble. Fact is, the Straw Hats will need powerful fighters on their team, and as we can see, one less powerful fighter will make things very difficult even if Jinbei is vastly superior to Sanji.
However, the Monster Quartet would make sense. Luffy takes on the boss (like Kaidou or Akainu) while Zoro, Jinbei, and Sanji take on the commanders/admirals that would serve under Kaidou or Akainu.
Outlier or not. The role of most captain aren’t known. I’m just saying your role on a ship doesn’t matter much. You can be strong. And it’s just not smart to say because of a characters role/dream he’s meant to be weaker. Going by that thinking the characters mentioned shouldn’t be strong. I use “fair point” argument against “unfair argument". When you use fair point to state why someone shouldn’t be strong, I’ll reverse it.
Thing is we also barely know the roles of most people on crews. The main ones we know are SH and a bit of others.
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Yeah saw a theory like Zoro Sanji and Jinbei being the new monster trio and Luffy being the boss .
I, for one, don't see what the problem is with Sanji's current level. He's the cook, and his own purposes aren't as strength-related as Luffy's or Zoro's...And, it would be quite illogical and even unfair if he was shown to be in the same league as them when he clearly hasn't spent as much time training, in his life before being a Strawhat and during the Timeskip. Luffy has trained all his life, Zorro even more, whereas Sanji has mainly cooked, and fought only as a side activity.
So what, he should be a genius cook and such a talented fighter that he is as good as them with way less effort?
It's the same as saying Chopper should be a super good fighter in addition to being a genius doctor, just because he's a character you like. Anyways Jinbei joining the crew will hopefully provide it with a fighting member that may be on par with the monster duo
I'm glad this arc is on its way to its end, not a big fan of most of it...I really disliked the nakama rescue plot device being used again, the lack of coherence in the reactions of said nakama surprised me, I think the way his backstory was tied to WCI arc and Big Mom was clumsy, and I really am fed up with the whole food-based characters, powers, athmosphere, backgrounds etc...
That, and: Germa 66, flying suits and genetic engineering? Really now?
The only perks were awesome Brooke, seeing Bege and Jinbei joining....
Please, let it be over soon so we can have Wano already...
Oven was looking upwards at Pound. If Sanji was at eye level, he'd be exactly in the same place as Pound. Sanji is below.
Wrong again buddy.
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Would be like seeing Coby use Soru and trying to claim Coby is superior to Luffy in speed. Many fighters are capable of moving at fast speeds without the use of Soru.
Point is Soru is just a technique for movement. Whether it's to an opponent or away from an opponent, that's really al it's for. When 2 characters are standing at close-ranged and duking it out, Soru is irrelevant unless to move away or come at a different angle.
Luffy hardly uses it in his base and is a better fighter than those capable of using it.
Never said that. Haki isn't only Black. There are 2 subcategories.
Countless Scenarios where Haki is used without any Black shading & Invisible post-timeskip:
Bobby Funk explicitly states he used Armament haki, yet his sword isn't Black.
Haki is invisible with pekoms against Caribou.
Luffy against Caesar, invisible haki.
Tashigi cut Monet in Fishman Island without Black Armament.
Luffy claims to have punched Trebol with Haki, yet his hands are not black.
Luffy kicked Trebol here with INvisible Armament Haki and we know this because Luffy always assumed Trebol to be a Logia.
Why didn't Sabo's pole cut in 2 whilst in a clash against a sword wielded by Fujitora if not for Haki?
Burgess attempts to stab Sabo who he knows is a Logia, there's no way it wasn't imbued with Haki if he hoped to be successful.
There's so much evidence that there are 2 applications of Haki. If not, then all this scenes should be regarded as mistakes, and no such issues have been brought to light nor have they been rectified in the volumes. There are indeed 2 applications of haki which is why Black Haki is such a big deal. Hardening is only possessed by those who have mastered it.
Firstly I totally agree with you on soru, I was just making sure that’s what you were saying, and secondly with the haki thing, that’s why I like discussion vs “I’m right and you’re wrong” cause you’re right about the haki not showing in black in all of these instances! In which case I’ll defer to there mostly likely being two different types of CoA haki! (the most likely being the slight chance that they are all wrong, and I do understand that that’s not likely at all lol!)
Why can’t all discussions be like ours! No bs back and forth, just inquiry!
By that logic, Sanji, who wants to find the All Blue, also needs to freely explore any sea, many of which are Yonko's territory. So power is also imperative for him. I dont think the character's role in the ship, or even their dream (with exception of Zoro, who's dream is becoming the strongest swordman) affects their strength. They all know power is important to survive in the new world and protect their nakama, and their stength will be limited by their potential, not their professions.
The truth is, before TS, Sanji was also a chef with the same goals and dreams as he has now, having received less training than Zoro and Luffy, but still strong enough to keep close to them.
Why would his rate of improvement slow down now? Now that we even know he has been genetically modified, Oda can give any excuse he wants for his strength.
I wouldn't be surprised if indeed Oda plans to replace Sanji with Jinbei for Strawhat's monster trio, but I think it would be a bad move from his part, considering all the effort prior to the Time Skip to build Sanji as a strong character, and Sanji's big fan base who would be dissapointed.
I think you're making assumptions here. I only made reference to why Captains need to be extraordinarily strong as did the person whose statements I quoted. I don't believe I implied that Sanji wouldn't improve in strength or grow strong due to simply being a Chef. It's something I've said countless times; Sanji will grow stronger.
I believe the purpose of Sanji being in the current state he is which is as far as I'm concerned, weak, is to make this arc believable in regards to his predicament, and It'll likely conclude or be the basis of catapulting Sanji's progression in strength to the next level and possibly at a level that deems him as the top trio.
The fact is as a captain, it's imperative and a must to be the strongest in the crew - that really was the basis of my statement. The others in the crew do not need to be as strong, but that depends on their ambition and they could just for the sake of it train to be as powerful as they want - that's really up to them. Zoro's goal is to become the greatest swordsman as you've pointed out, so his path is one that almost solely requires strength.
In fact, I never even stated occupational role as a limit for how strong one can be, didn't even imply. It's nonetheless beneficial to grow stronger. Chopper is a doctor, Robin an archaeologist, Franky is a ship-wright and Nami is a navigator - those do not limit. It is however a given in regards to the captain.
Am I the only one who thinks Oda showing us the way Luffy will become stronger in next chapters is a bit suspicious? It would be quite boring to see Luffy thinking "hey, maybe I can also see a bit into the future?" and two chapters later "oh yeah, I can", I think it doesn't suit Oda's style. Maybe if the flashback happened just before or right after he improves to justify it, I'd buy it, but this way of foreshadowing a power up is simply too straightforward and boring for OP. My prediction is Luffy will find something new and different while trying to see the future, I am not sure what, maybe awakening, maybe something we havent thought of, but sure not a simple CoO improvement.
I don't think it's suspicious. When Luffy arrived at Ruskaina, Rayleigh told him that he'd have to grow stronger in order to survive. Had those creatures he fought not been initially stronger than him, he wouldn't have progressed. He didn't just become stronger by listening to Rayleigh or in a vacuum, he got so by fighting against more powerful beasts.
He had to fight, train and continuously develop himself. In fact, Rayleigh said Luffy had become stronger since left left 6 months ago as Luffy had completed in training. It would only imply that he'd also been fighting in order to improve his Haki and his physical abilities. His fight with Katakuri shouldn't be any different. At one point in Ruskaina or during his training, one of those beasts might have been like Katakuri, a wall he had to surpass in order to grow stronger.
Animals do not possess Observation Haki to push his Observation to greater levels nor do they possess King's Haki, so his progression in strength would be limited. Now that he's fighting actual enemies with far more intelligence and power, it's only natural that these will act as catalysts to further his strength some more. I don't think it's farfetched.
There's a tendency to look at what looks like new information and claim it to be a retcon or Deus ex machina, but for the most part, Oda tends to hint at things long before he reveals it, and then we call it new information.
Firstly I totally agree with you on soru, I was just making sure that’s what you were saying, and secondly with the haki thing, that’s why I like discussion vs “I’m right and you’re wrong” cause you’re right about the haki not showing in black in all of these instances! In which case I’ll defer to there mostly likely being two different types of CoA haki! (the most likely being the slight chance that they are all wrong, and I do understand that that’s not likely at all lol!)
Why can’t all discussions be like ours! No bs back and forth, just inquiry!
What's your opinion on the full moon? What do you think it entails? and what do you expect Jimbei is going to do in order to start going on the offensive against the BM Pirates?
Re: One Piece Chapter 789 Discussion / 790 Predictions-Break this week
Week of no One Piece, withdrawals are kicking in.
Does anyone find it perplexing that Luffy didn't use Busoshoku Haki (Hardening) on his shoulder when Hody Bit Him. In Gear 4, he's able to use Busoshoku (Hardening) on his shoulders so does this mean he's just improved a lot since Fishman Island arc or a I interpreting this wrongly?
Doesn't have to be the real world, where have you seen Haki not hardening?
Even the invisible application of Haki hardens things, yet, are insinuating that it doesn't.
Luffy used the invisible application, and what does it do? makes his punch harder.
Boo uses Invisible application, and it's only because Haki hardens things, he's surprised that his weapon breaks.
Sole purpose of Haki is clearly, to harden things.
Liquid or gasses cannot be hardened, it makes no sense at all. Even Smoker who used Haki reverted back to solid form. How exactly did you infer that Akainu at any point, used Armament Haki? would like to see the evidence.
In fact, when Akainu fought Ace, he had his Magma activated, then got attacked by Marco and Vista in which he exclaimed "urghh... Haki users", why would he exclaim that if he was using Haki in the first place? Why would someone currently making use of Haki be annoyed by someone else using Haki. Only makes sense if he wasn't.
It's clearly the price that a Logia pays or most DF users have to pay, a choice between using and not using.
Even Sabo, where has he been shown blending Armament Haki with his flames? If ever there was a time to show an example of Logia using Haki, Sabo would have been the one. In fact, he literally stops using Haki the moment he becomes the Mera Mera no Mi user, so it really does imply it's either Haki or DF ability in the case of Logias.
Ok so here are a bunch of posts where you’ve stated that CoA haki is all about hardening. Now I’m not saying there isn’t an invisible one and a visible one but I have a new theory!
Oven was looking upwards at Pound. If Sanji was at eye level, he'd be exactly in the same place as Pound. Sanji is below.
Wrong again buddy.
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Would be like seeing Coby use Soru and trying to claim Coby is superior to Luffy in speed. Many fighters are capable of moving at fast speeds without the use of Soru.
Point is Soru is just a technique for movement. Whether it's to an opponent or away from an opponent, that's really al it's for. When 2 characters are standing at close-ranged and duking it out, Soru is irrelevant unless to move away or come at a different angle.
Luffy hardly uses it in his base and is a better fighter than those capable of using it.
Never said that. Haki isn't only Black. There are 2 subcategories.
Countless Scenarios where Haki is used without any Black shading & Invisible post-timeskip:
Bobby Funk explicitly states he used Armament haki, yet his sword isn't Black.
Haki is invisible with pekoms against Caribou.
Luffy against Caesar, invisible haki.
Tashigi cut Monet in Fishman Island without Black Armament.
Luffy claims to have punched Trebol with Haki, yet his hands are not black.
Luffy kicked Trebol here with INvisible Armament Haki and we know this because Luffy always assumed Trebol to be a Logia.
There are indeed 2 applications of haki which is why Black Haki is such a big deal. Hardening is only possessed by those who have mastered it.
See how Luffy’s leg is darker than usual? My theory is that the more CoA haki that is applied to an area the darker it gets! Which would put all CoA haki under the umbrella of hardening like you said before but still differentiate between visible and “invisible”.
About Sanji and Oven and Sanji’s fire getting so hot it burns Oven, I like the idea, it would be cool, but with Oven’s ability being based around heat I don’t think it’s likely that he can be burned normally, however having said that maybe if sanji used the heat mixed with haki?
With the Ji kids (ichiji Niji sanji Yonji Reiju) hard bodies I was thinking that Juuji’s(Judge) messing with their dna maybe he made it so their bodies are always set to s certain level of CoA permanently... which would explain why their bodies are able to move normally but still stay stuck in position like they are metal when struck with sufficient force, like Yonji. Just an idea!
For those of you that didn’t get it, which I can’t imagine many of you missed it, all of the Vinsmokes are numbered! Rei(zero)-ju Ichi(one)-ji ni(two)-ji San(three)-ji Yon(four)-ji and Juu(ten)-ji Americanized as Judge! Just a neat little thing I thought I’d add
What's your opinion on the full moon? What do you think it entails? and what do you expect Jimbei is going to do in order to start going on the offensive against the BM Pirates?
They wouldn’t have mentioned it if it wasn’t going to have an effect of some kind, and since Carrot mentioned it, it’ll likely have an effect on her. So I was thinking maybe something as subtle as a berserker mode kinda thing or something as overt as a monk version of monster point. Of course it could just be something like “since there’s going to be a full moon we’ll have plenty of light tonight!” Which I hope it’s not that last one...lol
With Jinbe, I don’t expect he will do anything really on the offensive, i think his whole plan is to get to Luffy get her the cake and get the hell outta Dodge, “Dodge” in this case being BM territory hehe. If he does anything aggressive at all I think it’ll be a defensive action. But it would be cool if he were to pull out some whales, or hell ALL of the sea creatures in the area to help them out! I think it’s likely the Fishman pirates (not including Jinbe of course) have done all they are going to be able to do given the circumstances..
Ok so here are a bunch of posts where you’ve stated that CoA haki is all about hardening. Now I’m not saying there isn’t an invisible one and a visible one but I have a new theory!
Okay, there's a slight misunderstanding here. Armament Haki does 2 things:
Treats Logia-bodied as tangible solid objects.
Hardens things.
My point was as not everyone one has Logia qualities, the reason Armament is used is because Haki makes things harder whether it's the Invisible application or the Hardening (which refers to the Black Armament Haki).
Even Rayleigh makes reference to this. Thus the reason he hits Luffy and the reason we see the Elephant writhing in pain. The most commonly relied on aspect of Armament it's the ability to harden one's self or weapons to increase it's destructive capacity or power.
My theory is that the more CoA haki that is applied to an area the darker it gets! Which would put all CoA haki under the umbrella of hardening like you said before but still differentiate between visible and “invisible”.
From a descriptive point of view, yes since all forms of Haki simply make things hard. From nomenclature perspective where names have been designated, no. Both are differentiated:
Invisible Haki
Hardening, which is the black - most of the fandom know it by this.
I just assumed you were aware, but those who aren't would of course come to the conclusion you have.
About Sanji and Oven and Sanji’s fire getting so hot it burns Oven, I like the idea, it would be cool, but with Oven’s ability being based around heat I don’t think it’s likely that he can be burned normally, however having said that maybe if sanji used the heat mixed with haki?
With the Ji kids (ichiji Niji sanji Yonji Reiju) hard bodies I was thinking that Juuji’s(Judge) messing with their dna maybe he made it so their bodies are always set to s certain level of CoA permanently... which would explain why their bodies are able to move normally but still stay stuck in position like they are metal when struck with sufficient force, like Yonji. Just an idea!
Oven's ability is heat based. It'd imply he'd either be resistant to heat or complete immune to it. There might however be a threshold regarding the point at which heat begins to have a burning sensation on him.
Armament Haki only makes attacks stronger due to making anything it's imbued on harder. It won't have any impact on the temperature of heat. All Armament would do is make his attack stronger whilst it being on fire. The only thing Armament would do here is allow Sanji to increase the temperature of his leg since Armament also protects one from burning up - the stronger the Armament, the greater temperatures Sanji can reach without harming himself as his Diable Jambe is based on friction. Pre-skip, Diable Jambe used to have consequences.
Haki also isn't a gene, but a spiritual power, it can't be tweaked by science. Haki isn't infinite as Luffy has shown and stated, therefore, it's impossible to have a "set level of Armament". The Germa kids are the way they are due to genetic engineering that has granted them exoskeletons that make them as hard as metal and granted them powers without the need of Devil fruits.
With Jinbe, I don’t expect he will do anything really on the offensive, i think his whole plan is to get to Luffy get her the cake and get the hell outta Dodge, “Dodge” in this case being BM territory hehe. If he does anything aggressive at all I think it’ll be a defensive action. But it would be cool if he were to pull out some whales, or hell ALL of the sea creatures in the area to help them out! I think it’s likely the Fishman pirates (not including Jinbe of course) have done all they are going to be able to do given the circumstances..
He has to go on the offensive. There's no reason to ready the canons if they're not going to at least shoot. More so he's saying it's boring to just run away without at least attacking back to some degree.
I agree that Luffy becomes stronger facing more powerful enemies, and fighting Katakuri is a good moment to improve his CoO and other physical abilities, but what makes me doubt it, is not the fact that the fight will lead to that kind of power up, but the way it has been introduced. I would have believed it if he unconsciously improves his CoO and then we have the flashback with Rayleigh to justify it, but foreshadowing it in that way, is like ruining the suprise of the moment Luffy achieves it. I may be wrong and Oda is just trying new ways to introduce power ups, but it just didnt seem very like Oda to do that. Anyway we´ll discover soon if I am right or not.
Fair enough, but I think it's better that Oda foreshadowed it to so explicitly. For a long time now, at least as far as I'm aware, quite a few have believed a power-up would occur soon. We speculated maybe it'd be by Awakening, some new Gear 4th form, a boost in his physical capabilities in speed and/or power and some even speculated perhaps it'd be Haki.
If Katakuri and Luffy were just fighting and Luffy suddenly begun to do what Katakuri was doing, a lot of people would be upset and would demand an explanation. We've seen how heated discussions have been and how split the fandom are in regards to Luffy defeating Katakuri whom many have also said was going to happen unequivocally while others were completely against it.
I think this is more or less Oda's way of damage control, it's better for Oda in my opinion to foreshadow, otherwise, people would claim it to be an "asspull" despite this being a shonen manga where protagonists tend to get power ups.
More so with the fact that Observation Haki is not visually discerned, informing us it gives us a context for why Luffy will suddenly begin to evade. Oda could just have made Katakuri this powerful without Observation and we'd think he's simply too fast for Luffy to hit because we don't exactly see what Katakuri has foreseen before he pulls it off, we just see him act on what he's seen and because we've been told he's using Observation, we can make sense of it. For something that is not explicitly illustrated visually, it's probably necessary.
From what we've seen of yonkou crews, the yonkou is LEAGUES above their commanders in regards to power levels. If we are to assume that is the same with a Pirate King crew then the monster trio concept is completely fine with the inclusion of Jimbei. Luffy is their leader and would be above the monster trio.
The emperors are, but that doesn't mean all of the captains of the top crews have to be leagues above their top fighters. Sanji, Zoro, and Jinbei can be pretty close to Luffy in strength without it changing anything, especially when Luffy has certain advantages that most others don't have.
Hell, even now characters are wondering why Zoro isn't the captain or how powerful Luffy is to be commanding a demon. I wouldn't be shocked if the only thing keeping Zoro below Luffy is that his skin isn't made of rubber, although if Luffy could also use swords, he'd be much more powerful.
And honestly, I see Zoro and Sanji's durability nearly the same, and close to Luffy's.
Outlier or not. The role of most captain aren’t known. I’m just saying your role on a ship doesn’t matter much. You can be strong. And it’s just not smart to say because of a characters role/dream he’s meant to be weaker. Going by that thinking the characters mentioned shouldn’t be strong. I use “fair point” argument against “unfair argument". When you use fair point to state why someone shouldn’t be strong, I’ll reverse it.
Thing is we also barely know the roles of most people on crews. The main ones we know are SH and a bit of others.
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Yeah saw a theory like Zoro Sanji and Jinbei being the new monster trio and Luffy being the boss .
I agree, claiming a character is meant to be weak because of his role or dream is a dumb and inaccurate claim to make.
But I disagree on the trio thing. Why can't they be a quartet? Luffy's always been the boss of the trio, and he should remain the boss of the quartet if that happens.
The emperors are, but that doesn't mean all of the captains of the top crews have to be leagues above their top fighters. Sanji, Zoro, and Jinbei can be pretty close to Luffy in strength without it changing anything, especially when Luffy has certain advantages that most others don't have.
Hell, even now characters are wondering why Zoro isn't the captain or how powerful Luffy is to be commanding a demon. I wouldn't be shocked if the only thing keeping Zoro below Luffy is that his skin isn't made of rubber, although if Luffy could also use swords, he'd be much more powerful.
And honestly, I see Zoro and Sanji's durability nearly the same, and close to Luffy's.
I agree, claiming a character is meant to be weak because of his role or dream is a dumb and inaccurate claim to make.
But I disagree on the trio thing. Why can't they be a quartet? Luffy's always been the boss of the trio, and he should remain the boss of the quartet if that happens.
It doesn't even have to be a quartet... It could be more. I doubt that we are even half way through the story and I expect Luffy to recruit some powerful crew members along the way.
We must understand that Luffy isn't even deep within the NW and hasn't really spent much time there as of now. He hasn't explored or come across what the NW has to offer for us to conclude that the monster tag should be limited.
What will be consistent is that our current fighters under Luffy will grow to match what they face in the future. I still firmly believe that the margin between Zoro, Jinbei and Sanji is marginal at best. Unless Oda chooses to significantly elevate Brook in terms of combat prowess, I think there will be new members who are strong.
It doesn't even have to be a quartet... It could be more. I doubt that we are even half way through the story and I expect Luffy to recruit some powerful crew members along the way.
We must understand that Luffy isn't even deep within the NW and hasn't really spent much time there as of now. He hasn't explored or come across what the NW has to offer for us to conclude that the monster tag should be limited.
What will be consistent is that our current fighters under Luffy will grow to match what they face in the future. I still firmly believe that the margin between Zoro, Jinbei and Sanji is marginal at best. Unless Oda chooses to significantly elevate Brook in terms of combat prowess, I think there will be new members who are strong.
If luffy's endgame is to be pirate king then it makes sense his crew structure will eventually, even if he doesn't want to, share similarities with other yonko crews. In essence the yonko crews we have seen so far have the following structure:
1.- A yonko
2.- The core crew. And within the core crew we have:
3 top fighters. In WB's crew it was marco, jozu and vista. For big mom it is katakuri, smoothie and cracker. For Kaido it's the 3 calamities which include jack. For shank's crew we don't know who the top 3 are but it seems like beckman is one of them at least. "trinities" seem to be a thing for yonko crews in any case
7-10 or so other crewmembers. It depends on the crew though. WB had 13 other commaders outside of his 3 top fighters, shanks had 10 core crewmembers including him at marineford but it is possible he didn't have quite everyone. Big mom's core crewmembers seem to be mostly his eldest children though there is no clear number. No information of kaido's crew in this regard. BB seems to have 10 giants.
3.- Affiliated crews. WB showed up to marineford with 53 crews IIRC. Kaido presumably has a number of affiliated crews. Big mom has crew marry into her family. With 84 children it makes sense her affiliated crews would number at least comparably to WB's crew.
And luffy already has more or less a mini version of that. Luffy of course would be the yonko equivalent, he has the core crewmembers and has his grand fleet allies which make about 7 crews IIRC.
With that in mind, the strawhats do still need some serious powerups and the amount also sort of depends on a couple details regarding how oda intends to structure the crew towards the endgame. One would be whether he intends for luffy to remain within the monster trio or rather have the monster trio be made out of zoro, sanji and jinbe (in that order- I will never under any circumstance forgive oda if sanji stops being the third strongest strawhat). Realistically speaking that means that at least zoro and sanji have to be able to go up against people like marco, jozu, jack or katakuri on their own. Then the others have to be able to match the non top trip members of yonko crews. That means people like perospero, oven, daifuku, haruta, ace and so on... So brook definitely needs to be vastly elevated in terms of combat prowess. And that is at a minimum. Currently brook is the 5th strongest strawhats, after franky. 6th if jinbe does become a core strawhat member. And given what we have seen it would be somewhat hard to believe jinbe is comparable to any top 3 yonko fighter TBH. People at that level can usually hold their ground against admirals which jinbe, a benchmark of which jinbe has usually fallen just short of IIRC. He seems even weaker than doflamingo...
Anyways, with that in mind I doubt luffy is getting more than a quartet. Not even current yonko crews have that. Well, the big mom pirates had 4 sweet commanders but one of them was defeated by a rookie so I wouldn't really count it. Of course, affiliated crews can have great degrees of strength however their captains generally seem to be inferior to core members.
i think
Pirate King level(Roger,Prime Whitebeard,Prime Garp)
Yonko level(Kaido,Prime Shiki,Shanks,Old Whitebeard,Current Blackbeard,Akainu,Big Mom)
Admiral level(Greendbull,Kizaru,Fujitora,Aokiji)
First Commander level(King Calamity,Ben Beckman,Marco,Shiliew(current),Katakuri)
Second Commander level(Quen CalamityYassop?,Vista,Vasco Shoot?,Smoothie)
Normal Shichikubai level (Doflamingo,Boa,Kuma)
Third Commander level (Jack,,Lucky Roo?,Jozu,,Sanjuan Wolf?,Cracker)
Fourth Commander level(Ace,Teach,Snack)
Veteran level (Daifuki,Oven,Compote,Perospero)
Normal Shichikubai is level that Shichikubai truly need to be to be in Shichikubai but consider this:
Crocodile gone to NW and got beaten by WB and Crocodile lost ambitiouns and similiar that extend in his Power,
Moriah also goes but now with Kaido ...got layu,relly on other powers...
Buggy -Joke but he have strong army of Pirates under him and one of center figure of underworld
Jinbei-mostly to have WG-Fishman connection and he is very strong around Veteran level i think if not stronger... and in water he is very powerful
i think Vergo level is level at midlle of Power Levels if you beat him that means you will be renowed and probably formidable to survive New World
Because to survive NW you absolutely need Haki and Vergo seems like all out Haki train ,most of Logias are fodders by pyhusiocal stats only their DF helps them to survive so much....
OJ!
i think
Pirate King level(Roger,Prime Whitebeard,Prime Garp)
Yonko level(Kaido,Prime Shiki,Shanks,Old Whitebeard,Current Blackbeard,Akainu,Big Mom)
Admiral level(Greendbull,Kizaru,Fujitora,Aokiji)
First Commander level(King Calamity,Ben Beckman,Marco,Shiliew(current),Katakuri)
Second Commander level(Quen CalamityYassop?,Vista,Vasco Shoot?,Smoothie)
Normal Shichikubai level (Doflamingo,Boa,Kuma)
Third Commander level (Jack,,Lucky Roo?,Jozu,,Sanjuan Wolf?,Cracker)
Fourth Commander level(Ace,Teach,Snack)
Veteran level (Daifuki,Oven,Compote,Perospero)
Normal Shichikubai is level that Shichikubai truly need to be to be in Shichikubai but consider this:
Crocodile gone to NW and got beaten by WB and Crocodile lost ambitiouns and similiar that extend in his Power,
Moriah also goes but now with Kaido ...got layu,relly on other powers...
Buggy -Joke but he have strong army of Pirates under him and one of center figure of underworld
Jinbei-mostly to have WG-Fishman connection and he is very strong around Veteran level i think if not stronger... and in water he is very powerful
i think Vergo level is level at midlle of Power Levels if you beat him that means you will be renowed and probably formidable to survive New World
Because to survive NW you absolutely need Haki and Vergo seems like all out Haki train ,most of Logias are fodders by pyhusiocal stats only their DF helps them to survive so much....
OJ!
Snack is essentially a Yonko commander (having been one of the 4 until he lost a fight). So if Sanji fights him..he is taking on and beating a Yonko commander. I guess that bothers you because you are writing the One Piece fan fiction in your head where Sanji doesn't fight anymore and is only a cook (which isn't shown anywhere in the manga...like, Luffy told them he had to get Sanji back because he is as strong as 1000 men...), but Sanji is and will continue to be a big part of the crew. It will always likely be Luffy, Zoro and Sanji as the three strongest, the last two roughly equal, and maybe Jimbei there with them. Saying anything else is really going out on a limb that will burn you (sorry for the mixed metaphor, lol)
Sorry but Sanji's new world feats say otherwise.
Sanji has fallen way behind, both as a fighter and as a character:
-he had big trouble against vergo who cracked dat leg bone of his, hiis main weapon/mean of fighting cracked by vergo a donquijote family executive...
-He was humiliated by doffy when he tried to act cool and almost died
-he lost to Judge...and yes this is a loss he could have predicted the soldiers intervention with his observation haki wich he didnt cause it was too weak...
As a character he has become a sorry excuse of his pre skip persona, almost dying from a nosebleed, not trusting in his capitain and crew in the big mom arc, hitting his capitain and disrespecting him publicly, and now baking a cake to save the ennemy when the protagonists goal of saving him and his family was already fulfiled... seriously?
I think that this far in the story and considering all the afomentioned points Sanji's character is hardly reedeemable as a fighter/character and has long lost his charisma and badass attitude that we used to love him for.
Most of those who wanted sanji to fight katakuri and now snack are delusional and should just let go of the past and accept Sanji for what he has become and always aimed to be a cook.
Sorry but Sanji's new world feats say otherwise.
Sanji has fallen way behind, both as a fighter and as a character:
-he had big trouble against vergo who cracked dat leg bone of his, hiis main weapon/mean of fighting cracked by vergo a donquijote family executive...
-He was humiliated by doffy when he tried to act cool and almost died
-he lost to Judge...and yes this is a loss he could have predicted the soldiers intervention with his observation haki wich he didnt cause it was too weak...
As a character he has become a sorry excuse of his pre skip persona, almost dying from a nosebleed, not trusting in his capitain and crew in the big mom arc, hitting his capitain and disrespecting him publicly, and now baking a cake to save the ennemy when the protagonists goal of saving him and his family was already fulfiled... seriously?
I think that this far in the story and considering all the afomentioned points Sanji's character is hardly reedeemable as a fighter/character and has long lost his charisma and badass attitude that we used to love him for.
Most of those who wanted sanji to fight katakuri and now snack are delusional and should just let go of the past and accept Sanji for what he has become and always aimed to be a cook.
Dude, I will most probably be branded as a "sanji-fanboy', but whatever.
Vergo - the vice-captain of the donquixote family - broke his leg, after Sanji's body already suffered damage, while Nami (or chopper?) was in his body. Correct me if i'm wrong.
He didn't try to act cool, when confronting doffy. He tried to save his crewmates from being killed. All while fighting in the air, against a character, whose forte is fighting in the air.
That nosebleed was pretty damn funny. And him almost dying from it was to introduce the importance of the blood-transfusion.
And maybe we have read a different manga, but his fight against Luffy wasn't out of disrespect. It was to protect his crew. He wanted to make them believe, that he disrespected them, so they would leave. But Luffy noticed it, that's just how strong of an understanding relationship they have. And in fact, he is trusting his crew right now. What's so wrong in not believing, that half of their crew wouldn't make it out of a yonkou's territory alive?
In fact, they would have died, hadn't all the circumstances played out in their favour. Something Sanji never could have expected.
I also agree that Sanji has somewhat fallen behind. But your reasoning is just meh. Sorry man.
The arc isn't over yet, and this arc is the perfect arc for Sanji to somehow progress.
I wouldn't brand Sanji as a lost case. Lets just wait for the arc to conclude, and then we can make serious statements about Sanji's role in the crew
Sorry but Sanji's new world feats say otherwise.
Sanji has fallen way behind, both as a fighter and as a character:
-he had big trouble against vergo who cracked dat leg bone of his, hiis main weapon/mean of fighting cracked by vergo a donquijote family executive...
-He was humiliated by doffy when he tried to act cool and almost died
-he lost to Judge...and yes this is a loss he could have predicted the soldiers intervention with his observation haki wich he didnt cause it was too weak...
As a character he has become a sorry excuse of his pre skip persona, almost dying from a nosebleed, not trusting in his capitain and crew in the big mom arc, hitting his capitain and disrespecting him publicly, and now baking a cake to save the ennemy when the protagonists goal of saving him and his family was already fulfiled... seriously?
I think that this far in the story and considering all the afomentioned points Sanji's character is hardly reedeemable as a fighter/character and has long lost his charisma and badass attitude that we used to love him for.
Most of those who wanted sanji to fight katakuri and now snack are delusional and should just let go of the past and accept Sanji for what he has become and always aimed to be a cook.
1. vergo
what WE do know Sanji went from being in pain to running and fighting normally, and that he thought he'd be in trouble, but not necessarily lose. vergo injured sanji yes but that doesnt = loss
2.
you do realize that it took gear 4 luffy ,law, and help from the colisseum people to take down doffy right doffy when luffy went gear 4 was still suffering from laws gamma knife he was only managed to stitch it up sloppily but people act like it was a full recovery
3. it wasnt a loss judge ordered a wall and sanji told them to move and he did that impaled them which caused him to give up because judge would have continued to hurt his men and sanji is kind. he wasnt knocked unconscious and dont go but he could have avoided the men and that shows his mantra is to weak when he saw that they would be put in danger being in the middle and his concern was more for the mens getting hurt than the fight
and sanji is stronger than jinbe. for one thing sanjis hells memories did more damage than jinbes ougi
and seriously this unreasonable hate sanji gets from the fandom is ridiculous like hating on him because he decided to go along with the big moms plans for wedding because they were threatening zeff (remember in baratie arc gin had threatend zeff and he let the pearl beat him up and told him to point the gun at him) lets be honest they cant be everywhere and claiming he doesnt trust the strawhats
or bashing him for making a cake which was to help the strawhats heck look at jinbe and nami they have all utilized their skills to help strawhats why not have sanji use his cooking to do the same and have his cooking emphasized for once
or claiming sanji is now reduced to just a cook and is no longer a fighter is ridiculous
Dude, I will most probably be branded as a "sanji-fanboy', but whatever.
Vergo , the vice-captain of the donquixote family broke his leg, after Sanji's body already sufferred damage while Nami (or chopper?) was in his body. Correct me if i'm wrong.
He didn't try to act cool, when confrontating doffy. He tried to save his crewmates from being killed. All while fighting in the air, against a character, whose forte is fighting in the air.
That nosebleed was pretty damn funny. And him almost ding from it, was to introduce the importance of the blood-transfusion.
And maybe we have read the difference manga, but his fight against Luffy, wasn't out of disrespect. It was to protect his crew. He wanted to make then belieelve that he disrespected them, so they would leave. But Luffy noticed it, that's just how strong of an understanding relationship they have. And in fact, he is trusting his crew right now. What's so wrong in not believing, that half of their crew wouldn't make it out of a yonkou's territory alive?
In fact, they would have died, hadn't all the circumstances player out im their favour. Something Sanji never could have expected.
I also agree that Sanji has somewhat fallen behind. But your reasoning is just meh. Sorry man.
The arc isn't over yet, and this arc is the perfect arc for Sanji to somehow progress.
I wouldn't brand Sanji as a lost case. Lets just wait for the arc to conclude, and then we can make serious statements about Sanji's Rolle in the crew
Sorry but Sanji's new world feats say otherwise.
Sanji has fallen way behind, both as a fighter and as a character:
-he had big trouble against vergo who cracked dat leg bone of his, hiis main weapon/mean of fighting cracked by vergo a donquijote family executive...
-He was humiliated by doffy when he tried to act cool and almost died
-he lost to Judge...and yes this is a loss he could have predicted the soldiers intervention with his observation haki wich he didnt cause it was too weak...
As a character he has become a sorry excuse of his pre skip persona, almost dying from a nosebleed, not trusting in his capitain and crew in the big mom arc, hitting his capitain and disrespecting him publicly, and now baking a cake to save the ennemy when the protagonists goal of saving him and his family was already fulfiled... seriously?
I think that this far in the story and considering all the afomentioned points Sanji's character is hardly reedeemable as a fighter/character and has long lost his charisma and badass attitude that we used to love him for.
Most of those who wanted sanji to fight katakuri and now snack are delusional and should just let go of the past and accept Sanji for what he has become and always aimed to be a cook.
LOL, first of all he did not had any trouble with vergo if not he was doing really good. im not sure if u watched that arc at all but when nani was in sanji's body, nani took an explosion to the face from ceasar then proceeded to be affected by the poison by ceasar and immediately switch bodies with no rest at all, the fact that he fighting at all is a feat of its own and this shows how much durability he has gained.
im not sure if u watched any of sanjis fights at all. or moments. his leg just cracked thats it it didnt break or anything, while in the past his legs got broken and multiple bones were broken while fighting against most of his previous opponents.
yh humilated LOL i can tell just from ur tone that ur a sanji hater. if sanji didnt do what he did back there, nani/chopper/brook would of died right there if sanji didnt risk his life to buy time for law to move doffy out of the way it would of been over and they would of died, im not sure how is that humiliating when in fact he saved his friends. he lost to judge????????? judge is weak and has been proven that he no where his family in strength or power and depends on tech. sanji was not int he state of mind to go into an all out fight with him, there was too much going on. predicted the soldiers intervention? thats not how observation haki works. sanji cant see the future. that is not how observation haki works. sanji clearly saw judge coming at him and he decided to take the blow
with the whole food-based characters, powers, athmosphere, backgrounds etc...
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