One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[kcd]

Probably Luffy not making do with his speed was what prolonged the fight? From what I remember, Luffy never bothered to use his speed against Cracker.
To be fair, Luffy doesn't like simple and basic, he loves it the hard way and usually prefers to do whatever comes to his head probably because of his credo. Though, I guess in the end he did carry out a simple plan and won.

Were there drawbacks or prep time? I know he said he couldn't use the Bounceman without something happening. But either way, even if he and Katakuri had a mostly even fight, it still would have shown how weak Luffy really is.

More like Luffy, given despite being beaten to a pulp, he's still getting up and fighting Katakuri, and he's likely going to walk away with a new ability.



That's debatable, given Katakuri seems to be good at tanking blows, and he's made of mochi as well. Akainu likely would have no drawbacks and if he got hurt in return, he can withstand it. Even Whitebeard's attacks didn't keep him down for long, and he probably took the most damage after Whitebeard and Luffy and was still fighting.

But what if you only had a gun with two bullets? Wouldn't you want to make sure you get a sure hit?

Agreed, that's my take on it, he never bothered to use his speed version, he wouldn't have struggled the way he did. It could be he prefers to do things the hard way as you stated, or it could just be it was a way to make Nami relevant in the fight, either way, I'm convinced luffy won't be needing Nami's help in the future, should he ever fight cracker.

Yea and, I won't be surprised if we get to learn he has another technique (at Wano) that would've been super effective against Katakuri, just the way snakeman would've been against cracker, Lol.

That's debatable, given Katakuri seems to be good at tanking blows, and he's made of mochi as well. Akainu likely would have no drawbacks and if he got hurt in return, he can withstand it. Even Whitebeard's attacks didn't keep him down for long, and he probably took the most damage after Whitebeard and Luffy and was still fighting.

But what if you only had a gun with two bullets? Wouldn't you want to make sure you get a sure hit?

Yea, he's also good at tanking blows just like doffy, but I think he wouldn't have been conscious after that, drawing conclusion from what a regular Kong gun did to him.

But what if you only had a gun with two bullets? Wouldn't you want to make sure you get a sure hit?

Yea but, my chances of hitting the target are higher when I see an opening, luffy got his opening when katakuri was not invincible/composed and he held back instead of going for the kill, I would definitely go for the kill immediately (with the two bullets) the moment I get an opening, because if there's no opening, there's no hitting it (as is the case with Katakuri).

 

[kcd]

Luffy wanted a navigator and got Nami. He needed a Cook and Sanji came along. They all have their first and primary role.

That said, while they're on it, they also have a secondary duty, which is to defend their ship, that's why both chopper and brook refused to abandon the sunny when peros said he would spare their lives if they do.

@Shasha23

Sanji's main role in the ship is to cook, no doubt about that, but as long as he's a strawhat, it's also his job to defend sunny, I think that's the angle @Laxus pwns natsu is looking at.

 

[LaGOAT]

And what makes you think they can tank his attacks or tank it for long? I'm saying there's a chance they'd have trouble.

Jinbei did not KO Moria. Another panel. End of war, and Moria's still conscious and not badly damaged. Mihawk saying Moria was alive when he last saw him, which was before Doflamingo was ordered to kill Moria.

Current Luffy would have to go Gear 4 and use King Kong Gun to one-hit Moria, which might not work.

Probably Luffy not making do with his speed was what prolonged the fight? From what I remember, Luffy never bothered to use his speed against Cracker.
To be fair, Luffy doesn't like simple and basic, he loves it the hard way and usually prefers to do whatever comes to his head probably because of his credo. Though, I guess in the end he did carry out a simple plan and won.

Were there drawbacks or prep time? I know he said he couldn't use the Bounceman without something happening. But either way, even if he and Katakuri had a mostly even fight, it still would have shown how weak Luffy really is.

More like Luffy, given despite being beaten to a pulp, he's still getting up and fighting Katakuri, and he's likely going to walk away with a new ability.



That's debatable, given Katakuri seems to be good at tanking blows, and he's made of mochi as well. Akainu likely would have no drawbacks and if he got hurt in return, he can withstand it. Even Whitebeard's attacks didn't keep him down for long, and he probably took the most damage after Whitebeard and Luffy and was still fighting.

But what if you only had a gun with two bullets? Wouldn't you want to make sure you get a sure hit?

Ard good point I forgot about those panels but the luffy manage to beat him pre ts vs a full power shadow Moria. Current luffy doesn’t need G4 to beat Moria (unless he gotten stronger during the ts) Moria isn’t that powerful.

Cuz luffy took a hit from jimbei with a skirmish fight they had in FI and he is taking stronger hits from katakuri. So yes it would be that much of a problem. Same with zoro.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 28, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 28, 2018 ---

Im sorry but are you dumb or simply just cant read and understand?
They can fight but they are not in the crew because they are fighters, only Zoro is in the crew for his strength and being a fighter, i simply cant dumb this down anymore for you. The rest of the crew can fight but Luffy didnt invite them because they can fight, they have roles they do but are also strong enough and can handle themselves but in no way do they identify themselves as fighters of the crew only Zoro is!

I think u lack comprehension just like my man @kcd was explaining to u I never said luffy invited them to be a primary fighter im saying that their secondary role is that they are a fighter. it isn’t about if luffy invited to be its about if they are a fighter or not which they are too bro

 

[Demonspeed]

How many Commanders do you think are stronger than Katakuri? By "Commander" I mean the equivalent of the Sweet Commanders in other Yonko crews like Kaido's Disasters.

 

[Shasha23]

I think u lack comprehension just like my man @kcd was explaining to u I never said luffy invited them to be a primary fighter im saying that their secondary role is that they are a fighter. it isn’t about if luffy invited to be its about if they are a fighter or not which they are too bro

Have you been reading what i have been saying from beginning before you rudely misquoted me?

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 28, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 28, 2018 ---

L

@Shasha23
Sanji's main role in the ship is to cook, no doubt about that, but as long as he's a strawhat, it's also his job to defend sunny, I think that's the angle @Laxus pwns natsu is looking at.

I have been saying that all along and he keeps quoting me and repeating what i was saying from beginning by twisting my words!

 

[hokageji]

How many Commanders do you think are stronger than Katakuri? By "Commander" I mean the equivalent of the Sweet Commanders in other Yonko crews like Kaido's Disasters.

Well, Kaido has 3 disasters... one of them is Jack... Following Mama's crew and the card theme from Mingo, the other two could be Queen and King. I'd suppose one of them, possibly King is either Katakuri or higher level.
Taking Whitebeard as an example, i can only think of Marco...

 

[XXGenesis]

So far I say Luffy is showing out to be the strongest SuperNova, & is about to presumably win against Katakuri the man who can see into the future. However the SuperNova "captians" seems to have level'd up to the Yonkou's low-mid tier Commanders. But still 3 captains were taken out by Kaido. That gets me thinking could the Sweet Commanders Jump Big MoM & defeat her? My guess is probably not, Same with WhiteBeard, think Ace,Marco,Jozu & Vista could defeat him?? Sounds like a good line up I know..But a Yonkou's Haki should just be on a different level much less everything else. Which what makes them the Top 4 Pirates

 

[M3J]

Agreed, that's my take on it, he never bothered to use his speed version, he wouldn't have struggled the way he did. It could be he prefers to do things the hard way as you stated, or it could just be it was a way to make Nami relevant in the fight, either way, I'm convinced luffy won't be needing Nami's help in the future, should he ever fight cracker.

Yea and, I won't be surprised if we get to learn he has another technique (at Wano) that would've been super effective against Katakuri, just the way snakeman would've been against cracker, Lol.



Yea, he's also good at tanking blows just like doffy, but I think he wouldn't have been conscious after that, drawing conclusion from what a regular Kong gun did to him.



Yea but, my chances of hitting the target are higher when I see an opening, luffy got his opening when katakuri was not invincible/composed and he held back instead of going for the kill, I would definitely go for the kill immediately (with the two bullets) the moment I get an opening, because if there's no opening, there's no hitting it (as is the case with Katakuri).

The question is though, why didn't he use his speed version when time was of the essence? Chopper and Carrot were trapped in the Mirror World, Pedro and Brook were looking for the Poneglyph, and Nami was with him. The goal was to get Sanji and get out, and prolonging the fight against Cracker just made that less likely to succeed.

I hope not. Though, wouldn't Gear 4 he used against Doflamingo be effective as well due to its speed and power, when dealing with Katakuri? Doesn't look like the regular Kong did much to him though. He was pushed back and bled, but it's not like it affected him enough to weaken him.

But if you're unsure if that's an opening? Luffy wasn't quite sure how Katakuri's ability worked, but once he figured it out, Katakuri became calm again.

Ard good point I forgot about those panels but the luffy manage to beat him pre ts vs a full power shadow Moria. Current luffy doesn’t need G4 to beat Moria (unless he gotten stronger during the ts) Moria isn’t that powerful.

Cuz luffy took a hit from jimbei with a skirmish fight they had in FI and he is taking stronger hits from katakuri. So yes it would be that much of a problem. Same with zoro.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 28, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 28, 2018 ---

I think u lack comprehension just like my man @kcd was explaining to u I never said luffy invited them to be a primary fighter im saying that their secondary role is that they are a fighter. it isn’t about if luffy invited to be its about if they are a fighter or not which they are too bro

Luffy and the crew did, if I recall correctly? And don't forget that Moria had difficulty controlling/containing the shadows inside him, so that gave Luffy an advantage. Moria's powerful enough to take beatings and still take in 1,000 shadows. Gear 4 would likely be requierd.

It wasn't a serious hit from Jinbei. Sanji got hit by Jinbei and Luffy and still got up like nothing happened. Neither men were serious.



(not at you) Also, Sanji may be a cook, but he's still a fighter. He, Zoro, and Luffy are fighters, and Brook as well. Claiming Sanji is weak or that his secondary role is a fighter is dumb. throughout the manga Sanji's usually fighting along with Zoro and Luffy whereas Usopp, Nami, and Chopper try not to fight or prefer to run away. Hell, Nami even stated how much punishment Sanji's body took and how resilient it is.

 

[kcd]

The question is though, why didn't he use his speed version when time was of the essence? Chopper and Carrot were trapped in the Mirror World, Pedro and Brook were looking for the Poneglyph, and Nami was with him. The goal was to get Sanji and get out, and prolonging the fight against Cracker just made that less likely to succeed.

Exactly, this very question you asked is what made say luffy doesn't do the simple and basic things I expect him to, it can be frustrating at times.

But if you're unsure if that's an opening? Luffy wasn't quite sure how Katakuri's ability worked, but once he figured it out, Katakuri became calm again.

I think in that instance luffy was sure, that's why he went gear4 to land a significant hit.
And, the first g4 punch landed anyway, so, it was no longer a case of testing/checking if the other hits/bullets will connect, he was sure at that point but underestimated katakuri's resilience.

 

[Rein Avara]

How many Commanders do you think are stronger than Katakuri? By "Commander" I mean the equivalent of the Sweet Commanders in other Yonko crews like Kaido's Disasters.

I'd personally say 3 if we are to include shank's crew: Ben Beckman, and the two remaining Disasters.

 

[kcd]

(not at you) Also, Sanji may be a cook, but he's still a fighter. He, Zoro, and Luffy are fighters, and Brook as well. Claiming Sanji is weak or that his secondary role is a fighter is dumb. throughout the manga Sanji's usually fighting along with Zoro and Luffy whereas Usopp, Nami, and Chopper try not to fight or prefer to run away. Hell, Nami even stated how much punishment Sanji's body took and how resilient it is.

Guess this post is directed at me , so, a little question and answer section.
Q
I've one question, can you tell me the reason why Luffy invited or wanted Sanji to join the crew?

A
It's because he wanted a cook.
The fact Sanji is strong and can also fight is a bonus.

 

[LaGOAT]

Have you been reading what i have been saying from beginning before you rudely misquoted me?

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 28, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 28, 2018 ---

I have been saying that all along and he keeps quoting me and repeating what i was saying from beginning by twisting my words!

Yes I read ur point u just misunderstood me that all

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 1, 2018 ---

The question is though, why didn't he use his speed version when time was of the essence? Chopper and Carrot were trapped in the Mirror World, Pedro and Brook were looking for the Poneglyph, and Nami was with him. The goal was to get Sanji and get out, and prolonging the fight against Cracker just made that less likely to succeed.

I hope not. Though, wouldn't Gear 4 he used against Doflamingo be effective as well due to its speed and power, when dealing with Katakuri? Doesn't look like the regular Kong did much to him though. He was pushed back and bled, but it's not like it affected him enough to weaken him.

But if you're unsure if that's an opening? Luffy wasn't quite sure how Katakuri's ability worked, but once he figured it out, Katakuri became calm again.


Luffy and the crew did, if I recall correctly? And don't forget that Moria had difficulty controlling/containing the shadows inside him, so that gave Luffy an advantage. Moria's powerful enough to take beatings and still take in 1,000 shadows. Gear 4 would likely be requierd.

It wasn't a serious hit from Jinbei. Sanji got hit by Jinbei and Luffy and still got up like nothing happened. Neither men were serious.



(not at you) Also, Sanji may be a cook, but he's still a fighter. He, Zoro, and Luffy are fighters, and Brook as well. Claiming Sanji is weak or that his secondary role is a fighter is dumb. throughout the manga Sanji's usually fighting along with Zoro and Luffy whereas Usopp, Nami, and Chopper try not to fight or prefer to run away. Hell, Nami even stated how much punishment Sanji's body took and how resilient it is.

No luffy and his crew helped when they were fighting Moria and oars. When Moria went full shadow mode. luffy fought him by himself he used gear 2nd and 3rd to beat him. He was losing control becuase luffy kept damaging him. Current luffy would demolish him especially when he can Haki up. Making it seems Moria and DD are on the same level.

Although they were not serious the fact of the matter is luffy can till take the hit if base luffy can take hit from kakaturi he would definitely can take hits from jimbei. Sanji can takes hits from jimbei but that doesn’t mean he wouldnt take an L. Sanji can take hits from luffy but will till lose

 

[kkck]

There really isn't that much information to go on regarding how katakuri compares to the people who would be his equals in other crews. In theory they would be ben beckham, marco and.... whoever takes that role in BB's and kaido's crew. We know jack is technically one of the calamities and had a bounty just short of katakuri's however we can't rule him not being the strongest of the calamities. Based on what we have seen from kaido's crew it seems they are unusually violent even for pirates so it is possible the three calamities have higher bounties than their equivalents in other crews. That said, if jack isn't the strongest of the calamities I would venture the guess that his superior is stronger than katakuri even if only by a small margin. Seeing how katakuri ultimately lost he seems kinda lackluster compared to the hype around the other commanders. And oda even went out of his way to downgrade how special katakuri's prediction abilities were. His haki was introduced as being rather special, perhaps even unique, and then we see a flashback of luffy learning how some people in the new world had that ability.

 

[afromarco005]

If this give time for everyone to grow more in the Strawhats especially the Monster Trio, then Jimbei would be more fourth strongest of the crew as I don't know if he can be close to their lvl if he is able to invade Wano and win. Though he will be the strongest cremated, but only if he survived though.

Sorry but I cant picture Sanji ever tanking a named attack from a yonko and especially not right after wano. Dont underestimate Jinbei!

Feat wise, hype wise Jinbei>Zoro>>>Sanji as I explained many times on this forum Sanji is not much a fighter anymore as he is a cook, he trained his cooking for 2 years and his running skills for when the enemy is too strong for his pathetic ass and seeing how his finest cake didnt do jack to mama, he still have a ways to go before becoming a legendary chef...

 

[King Moe]

Sorry but I cant picture Sanji ever tanking a named attack from a yonko and especially not right after wano. Dont underestimate Jinbei!

Feat wise, hype wise Jinbei>Zoro>>>Sanji as I explained many times on this forum Sanji is not much a fighter anymore as he is a cook, he trained his cooking for 2 years and his running skills for when the enemy is too strong for his pathetic ass and seeing how his finest cake didnt do jack to mama, he still have a ways to go before becoming a legendary chef...

Sanji tank a Big Mom attack with his leg with Luffy and later in this arc tank the giant Haki Armor Genie. I am not disrespecting Jimbei as of course he is a tough guy, but if you think Sanji and Zoro would be easily defeated by him, your crazy. Especially since those two face off with Fishman opponents before, so highly doubt Jimbei can mess with him.

Lol, yep you have the biased Sanji hate syndrome on you for sure. Take your false facts somewhere else if you fucking think Sanji is incapable in fighting anyone. He has shown to beat the hell out of BM pirates especially Oven while couldn't even noticed it was him kicking him. Sanji is still a powerful fighter and just you want long ass one on one fights, your sleeping on him while so far we don't know how strong Jimbei is fully against BM and don't use that shit about him pushing back Big Mom. She was hungry and not thinking straight along with weaken body. I don't count that as a feats for Jimbei since she was nerfed on the situation.

Though Jimbei could take on semi-commander, but Idk Sweet Commander/Yonko Commander. So as for now:
Zoro>/=Sanji>>>Jimbei.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Sorry but I cant picture Sanji ever tanking a named attack from a yonko and especially not right after wano. Dont underestimate Jinbei!

Feat wise, hype wise Jinbei>Zoro>>>Sanji as I explained many times on this forum Sanji is not much a fighter anymore as he is a cook, he trained his cooking for 2 years and his running skills for when the enemy is too strong for his pathetic ass and seeing how his finest cake didnt do jack to mama, he still have a ways to go before becoming a legendary chef...

When it comes to Sanji, common sense goes out the window.

As you said, he's not that strong compared to his opponents which is fact, but I do think he will get a strength buff. I think part of the reason this arc was focused around him was to deal with his emotional issues and past and I feel that's likely holding back his progress. With this settled once and for all, I'm pretty certain he will realise his full potential. A few characters have progressed to Armament Hardening from emotional character development such as Bellamy and Sai.

I don't grasp how anyone can claim that Jinbei is weaker than Sanji, that's wishful.

1. Jimbei has Hardening - Sanji doesn't.
2. Jimbei has proven himself against formidable opponents - Sanji hasn't.

Does this mean Sanji will remain this way? No, at some point, Jimbei was without doubt superior to Luffy, but at this point, I think he's without doubt stronger and Sanji will surely get his time to shine and more so in Wano as that will be a battle orientated arc - it's war as opposed to a rescue mission.

Sanji fans don't need to lie to themselves, don't see why they do rather than accept the facts.

Just before I even briefly talk about Sanji in this arc, I think people forget the purpose of this story and where it's head. Luffy is the man who will become Pirate King and defeat the WG. Who are the WG? They're the so-called upholders of justice who vanquish evil, but we know that's merely a facade. They watch evil occur right under their noises and turn a blind eye to it.

1. They condone slavery as we saw in Sabaody.
2. They resort to genocide.
3. They kill their own comrades and possess little to no regard for life - the same view Akainu has is similar to that shared by the Buster-call unit as we saw in Enies Lobby where a Navy ship was blasted into oblivion because they prioritised results over life.
4. They continually recruit more Shichibukai who they know commit atrocities, but the WG turn a blind eye to this as long as they can rely on them the WG would only act against a Shichibukai if their misdeeds become public which is when they put on their white coats as the gallant knights of justice.
5. Look at the WG's behaviour at Dressrosa.. allowed the country to be subjugated by Joker. Surely, they must have known something was up. It wasn't like King Riku was turned into a toy and all information about him was erased from all human memory.

Who are the SHs? They're the people who are supposed to put the WG to shame and supposed to lead by example. How would it look if the people destined to bring the world to true justice are responsible for the deaths of an entire nation? In that respect, I think Sanji making that Cake saved the lives of the citizens whom we seem to disregard because we're consumed with Katakuri and Oven and Smoothie's thiccness . Yes, the cake has also APPARENTLY gotten them into pan with Big Mom once again, I think we should have faith and be patient as very little time has transpired thus far and the arc as far as we know hasn't concluded and even so... by the time Jimbei reemerges, I'm sure it'd be concluded and the Cake would likely have played a role in the Sun Pirates being able to escape.
As for the abandonment of Pekoms, I don't think it's as villainous as some are trying to make it out to be. The SHs have realised they came unprepared and rather foolishly at that. They've come to seemingly understand that they have no choice but to run and accept sacrifices... this shows maturity. There was a thread where people asked where this Luffy was...

People have been asking for realistic outcomes and consequences for taking on the Yonko, the price is seemingly being realistic and expecting sacrifices to be made and not because they're evil, but because of the challenge. However, despite this, the Sun Pirates or Germa could still save Pekoms and all those who have played an important role.

I don't think Sanji is as bad as people have made him out to be this arc.

 

[King Moe]

When it comes to Sanji, common sense goes out the window.

As you said, he's not that strong compared to his opponents which is fact, but I do think he will get a strength buff. I think part of the reason this arc was focused around him was to deal with his emotional issues and past and I feel that's likely holding back his progress. With this settled once and for all, I'm pretty certain he will realise his full potential. A few characters have progressed to Armament Hardening from emotional character development such as Bellamy and Sai.

I don't grasp how anyone can claim that Jinbei is weaker than Sanji, that's wishful.

1. Jimbei has Hardening - Sanji doesn't.
2. Jimbei has proven himself against formidable opponents - Sanji hasn't.

Does this mean Sanji will remain this way? No, at some point, Jimbei was without doubt superior to Luffy, but at this point, I think he's without doubt stronger and Sanji will surely get his time to shine and more so in Wano as that will be a battle orientated arc - it's war as opposed to a rescue mission.

Sanji fans don't need to lie to themselves, don't see why they do rather than accept the facts.

Just before I even briefly talk about Sanji in this arc, I think people forget the purpose of this story and where it's head. Luffy is the man who will become Pirate King and defeat the WG. Who are the WG? They're the so-called upholders of justice who vanquish evil, but we know that's merely a facade. They watch evil occur right under their noises and turn a blind eye to it.

1. They condone slavery as we saw in Sabaody.
2. They resort to genocide.
3. They kill their own comrades and possess little to no regard for life - the same view Akainu has is similar to that shared by the Buster-call unit as we saw in Enies Lobby where a Navy ship was blasted into oblivion because they prioritised results over life.
4. They continually recruit more Shichibukai who they know commit atrocities, but the WG turn a blind eye to this as long as they can rely on them the WG would only act against a Shichibukai if their misdeeds become public which is when they put on their white coats as the gallant knights of justice.
5. Look at the WG's behaviour at Dressrosa.. allowed the country to be subjugated by Joker. Surely, they must have known something was up. It wasn't like King Riku was turned into a toy and all information about him was erased from all human memory.

Who are the SHs? They're the people who are supposed to put the WG to shame and supposed to lead by example. How would it look if the people destined to bring the world to true justice are responsible for the deaths of an entire nation? In that respect, I think Sanji making that Cake saved the lives of the citizens whom we seem to disregard because we're consumed with Katakuri and Oven and Smoothie's thiccness . Yes, the cake has also APPARENTLY gotten them into pan with Big Mom once again, I think we should have faith and be patient as very little time has transpired thus far and the arc as far as we know hasn't concluded and even so... by the time Jimbei reemerges, I'm sure it'd be concluded and the Cake would likely have played a role in the Sun Pirates being able to escape.
As for the abandonment of Pekoms, I don't think it's as villainous as some are trying to make it out to be. The SHs have realised they came unprepared and rather foolishly at that. They've come to seemingly understand that they have no choice but to run and accept sacrifices... this shows maturity. There was a thread where people asked where this Luffy was...

People have been asking for realistic outcomes and consequences for taking on the Yonko, the price is seemingly being realistic and expecting sacrifices to be made and not because they're evil, but because of the challenge. However, despite this, the Sun Pirates or Germa could still save Pekoms and all those who have played an important role.

I don't think Sanji is as bad as people have made him out to be this arc.

Thanks! "LET'S DO THIS YOU BITCH!" Nah, just kidding lol xD. I am not heated at all.

I agree with some of your points there that's for sure on Jimbei and Sanji, but have to respectfully disagree on that Jimbei kinda outclassed Sanji since yeah, we haven't seen much combat on Sanji as much, but Jimbei as well since the only fighting we saw him was against that cream guy (Sorry forgot his name) he one-shotted, brief moment at the Wedding Party against BM pirates and also while he did take on BM face to face, she was still weaken by hunger and not in her right mind, so wouldn't call that a big feat if she wasn't full power as the others could have probably damaged her if that's the case too.

Jimbei is very strong, don't think me and other Sanji fans know this as I can speak to those I know we are in the right mind in powerscaling (Though I am fan of every strawhat honestly), but same thing can apply to Sanji too as it been shown the man can move without people noticing his speed as he took and blitz Oven who is a strong Semi-Commander and one of the Monster Trilogy of the BM pirate brothers with Daifuku and Katakuri and left him damage and bloody along the same with Bobbin who has a 100 million+ bounty with ease and he also one-shotted Raisin (Madara looking guy xD) with not much effort. Also let's not forget he also block full power BM attack with Luffy to save Reiju and also blocking Daifuku's Haki Armor, Giant Genie to protect the ship to being chopped in half when we saw early Daifuku can cut ships with ease, so he isn't a joke along with being apart of the BM Monster Brothers Trilogy.

Saying Sanji is "Weak" (Not that I think you think that, but think he is weaker than Jimbei by a mile), would be very incorrect to say. It's just right now, they are focusing on escaping, not fighting everyone. It's compare to other certain arcs like Impel Down when they are only facing some people, not everyone so there won't be long one on one fights for this except few like Luffy's.

Sanji does have Haki and pretty sure it's confirm he can harden, but it's hard to see it when he wears "Black Leg" pants (No pun-intended) as why would Judge in his fight notice he use Haki if he didn't show it in some visible way. So it could be that Sanji hasn't shown more of his full power on someone yet just like Zoro feel like he hasn't use his full power maybe,

Also let's not forget both Sanji and Jimbei could easily lift and defeat giant being like Wadsamai (Sorry for butchering his name), so they seem quite match in power of strength, so best not to doubt both sides. Though I am leaning a bit more on Sanji due to the fact is his attacks are speedy and strong while Jimbei's attacks while strong as well, he need to take a stance and move slow as he attacks which been shown as he fights. Nothing to take away from Jimbei, but if they were to fight, Sanji would get more hits in compare to Jimbei since he could dodge them with his speed and plus remember this isn't Sanji's first time fighting someone with Fishman Karate while Kurobui is not "skilled" as Jimbei, Sanji can probably guess how Jimbei would move in ways from experience, so rather not count him out in a fight that much.

Though honestly would say they are evenly match, but leaning more on Sanji side on the speed since striking first could lead to heavy damage more from what I see it. Don't worry I am in my right mind, but you have to agree that some "fans" are sleeping on Sanji's fighting skills as if they forget what he has done in pre-timeskip and so far in the timeskip when he fights and the reason why he is unable to have a long one on one fight at times due to "reasons".

However I feel there will be power up for Sanji in the future no doubt especially for the other Strawhats since they will need to train in order to face off an Yonko crew more like BM again or others especially Kaido himself.

Also I agree on the maturity part as this is the New World, not like the Grand Line, sacrifices will happen and deaths will occur and not just on bad guy sides, but possibly on the good side too since so far we lost Pedro and Pound who died in this, and we might lose Jimbei if Oda feels like him dying too. So far Oda been slowly increasing the dark tone and deaths for awhile as he even kill off Vergo and Monet and while yeah they are villains, Oda rarely killed even villains as look at all past ones like Buggy, Crocodile, Doflamingo (And he was the worst so far in being evil), so tensions are rising in this timeskip, so be prepare for things on One Piece being more serious as we go on ahead. I like how you use that past chapter to help justify your claim about it, Hannibal.

 

[M3J]

Sorry but I cant picture Sanji ever tanking a named attack from a yonko and especially not right after wano. Dont underestimate Jinbei!

Feat wise, hype wise Jinbei>Zoro>>>Sanji as I explained many times on this forum Sanji is not much a fighter anymore as he is a cook, he trained his cooking for 2 years and his running skills for when the enemy is too strong for his pathetic ass and seeing how his finest cake didnt do jack to mama, he still have a ways to go before becoming a legendary chef...

He did do it with Luffy against Big Mom though, both managed to stop her attack. I can see Sanji taking an attack or two from a Yonkou, especially if Luffy can do the same. In any case, Jinbei is different from Sanji, as a fishman he actually has a tough exterior needed to survive underwater pressure, while Sanji doesn't have that benefit.

Sanji is still a fighter, he's trained in fighting too. He can use Color of Armament, and so far his main, clear-cut losses have been against Doflamingo and... I don't remember who else ,though maybe Judge beat him fair and square.

And I haven't read the spoilers, but there's a difference between Big Mom and Bege. And if you're gonna criticize Sanji for being "weak," then I hope you do/did the same for Luffy. Dude struggled to beat Cracker even with help and struggled immensely to beat Katakuri, and he couldn't do anything to Big Mom even with Kong Gun. Otherwise it just looks like people are whinging about Sanji for some reason.

To be honest, I see Jimbei more as probably the leader of the Strawhat Grand Fleet and not so much as "main Strawhats". Never felt him as a true member if he doesn't as it feels right on him being trusted on leading that side than being apart of the crew. Also unlike the Strawhats, he is the only one who doesn't have an "goal" in mind like the Strawhats. Sure he wants to make Luffy the Pirate King, but isn't that everyone other goal they are doing for Luffy?

Doesn't really make them stand out much if you ask me. I don't mind him apart of the Strawhats, but more so as Grand Fleet Group since it's obvious he doesn't want to leave his crew behind since he is going back for them and it make sense since the other Grand Fleet members have their own crew and ships for theirs too, so having the New Sun Pirates apart of the Strawhat Grand Fleet would be a great addition than just Jimbei alone and him trying to be the "main Strawhat members".

Jinbei fits as a main Straw Hat because he brings his own personality to the group and is unique. And a helmsman, he's extremely useful, as we've seen, and the Straw Hats would likely need a helmsman in case they need to chase, get away, or survive harsh oceans.

And I think one of Jinbei's goals/dreams is to see Fishmen and humans get along, or at least see fishmen have the freedom to come up to the surface whenever they want without fearing for their lives due to prejudice. And on top of that and wanting to make Luffy the Pirate King, he also wants to protect him especially for Ace and Whitebeard, who gave their lives.

The Sun Pirates can be part of the fleet and not need Jinbei since Aladdin (?) is the new captain.

 

[King Moe]

He did do it with Luffy against Big Mom though, both managed to stop her attack. I can see Sanji taking an attack or two from a Yonkou, especially if Luffy can do the same. In any case, Jinbei is different from Sanji, as a fishman he actually has a tough exterior needed to survive underwater pressure, while Sanji doesn't have that benefit.

Sanji is still a fighter, he's trained in fighting too. He can use Color of Armament, and so far his main, clear-cut losses have been against Doflamingo and... I don't remember who else ,though maybe Judge beat him fair and square.

And I haven't read the spoilers, but there's a difference between Big Mom and Bege. And if you're gonna criticize Sanji for being "weak," then I hope you do/did the same for Luffy. Dude struggled to beat Cracker even with help and struggled immensely to beat Katakuri, and he couldn't do anything to Big Mom even with Kong Gun. Otherwise it just looks like people are whinging about Sanji for some reason.

Jinbei fits as a main Straw Hat because he brings his own personality to the group and is unique. And a helmsman, he's extremely useful, as we've seen, and the Straw Hats would likely need a helmsman in case they need to chase, get away, or survive harsh oceans.

And I think one of Jinbei's goals/dreams is to see Fishmen and humans get along, or at least see fishmen have the freedom to come up to the surface whenever they want without fearing for their lives due to prejudice. And on top of that and wanting to make Luffy the Pirate King, he also wants to protect him especially for Ace and Whitebeard, who gave their lives.

The Sun Pirates can be part of the fleet and not need Jinbei since Aladdin (?) is the new captain.

Though Sanji is a very durable guy as his durability is possibly close or maybe equal to Zoro's durability as let's not forget that he tanked Kuma's Urusa Shock and was the one of the only ones coconscious along with Zoro and also kept fighting even in extreme conditions like fighting with everyone against PX Kuma robots despite being shot through his body with an laser and can't forget with Vergo one as Sanji continue fighting with him despite Vergo damage him a bit on his leg, but still kept kicking and moving around as if he wasn't that damage at all. Also let's not forget the durability within this arc as he tank attacks to protect Luffy while not flinching a inch even when he got shot and didn't notice until Chopper pointed out, so wouldn't say his durability isn't a match for Jimbei's. He can tank more than people think, but they seem to forget for some "fans" since they want him to do more combat feat that they "sleep" on what he can really do in a fight.

Also I agree with your statement as they just like to point the finger on Sanji at times despite none of the situations are even bad or even his fault. It's just getting plain annoying at this point honestly.

As for Jimbei, still feels better if he was more leader of an Grand Fleet though than official Strawhat as why would Oda keep him at bay if he wouldn't joined already? Feel like he is putting something in mind for Jimbei for something else. He could be an temporary member, but not a "official" Strawhat in the end. As for what you said about his dreams, maybe, but he never really emphasize the dream as much compare to wanting to make Luffy the Pirate King, so I doubt that is his goal or at least the first major one, so Idk if he should be in for not having much "action" or at least emphasize for something like that, you know?

Also again, that is what major of Strawhats are doing, so it doesn't make him stand out to make him the Pirate King too. While I get his a good helmsman that's for sure, it feels like he might not be true member or at least last for long as it seems Oda has other plans for him as this would have been a good moment to send him off with the Strawhats, but Jimbei continue to stay behind until he is finish with other stuff, so that much means he might support Luffy in another way if he isn't coming along or at least later on he come by.

Not shutting down your opinion, but just seeing it from my perspective and also with this latest chapter on his character and position as it makes me think on how he be with Strawhats more.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I agree with some of your points there that's for sure on Jimbei and Sanji, but have to respectfully disagree on that Jimbei kinda outclassed Sanji since yeah, we haven't seen much combat on Sanji as much, but Jimbei as well since the only fighting we saw him was against that cream guy (Sorry forgot his name) he one-shotted, brief moment at the Wedding Party against BM pirates and also while he did take on BM face to face, she was still weaken by hunger and not in her right mind, so wouldn't call that a big feat if she wasn't full power as the others could have probably damaged her if that's the case too.

We have no evidence that grants Sanji the accolades or feats that rival Jimbei.

1. Sanji got defeated by Vergo, granted Sanji was already injured.
2. He got 1-hit by Joker.

He's not done exceptionally against any formidable opponent while Jimbei:

1. Fought with Ace for 5 days who Chinjao believes could have been Pirate King.
2. Blew Big Mom away.

Sanji's resume is poor in comparison. These are not in anyway me putting down Sanji, these are just facts.

Sanji does have Haki and pretty sure it's confirm he can harden, but it's hard to see it when he wears "Black Leg" pants (No pun-intended) as why would Judge in his fight notice he use Haki if he didn't show it in some visible way. So it could be that Sanji hasn't shown more of his full power on someone yet just like Zoro feel like he hasn't use his full power maybe,

Sanji has Armament, but there's 2 categories of Armament:

1. Invisible which most people can use.
2. Hardening which is represented as black.

Sanji has no Hardening. Even in situations that it'd have been viable to use it, he didn't use it which implies he doesn't possess it. You can't attribute something that's visually discerned to a character that has yet to exhibit unless they're characters whom have been given the highest seats in the series, and therefore can be given reasonable benefit of the doubt.

It would be like trying to make a case that Nami has King's Haki despite the fact she's yet to use it, it's unlikely, however, does Mihawk have King's Haki? I can give him that benefit of the doubt and claim he probably does. For characters who do not belong to the quintessence of strength and power, we can't give them that privilege.

If there was a time for Sanji to prove he had Hardened Armament, it'd have been when his shin was cracked as Hardening would have further protected his legs; this could also have been done against Joker, but he never made use of it implying he simply doesn't possess it.

In fact, when people who possess Hardening go against blades, they always use Hardening as we see with Luffy, Joker and even Vergo against Tashigi

Jimbei has Hardening, we've seen him use it; Sanji doesn't. Even going further, Sanji blocked Judge's blade with his leg and we're told he used Armament (the Invisible variant which is the weaker form of Armament), and what happened to his leg? It throbbed in pain... had he used Hardening like Luffy, Law and Vergo, this wouldn't have happened.

One simply can't use something they do not possess. Either Sanji is a masochist who loves pain, or he simply doesn't have it.

Again, we can even go to his fight with Luffy.

He explicitly stated he used the entirety of his strength against Luffy, and the best he could do against a weakened Luffy was a missing teeth? Luffy wasn't even defending himself.

These are just plain facts. If Jimbei, or Cracker had free shots at Luffy? I'd be far more worried about Luffy losing more than a teeth. Sanji did nothing impressive despite fighting to the best of his abilities as he states.

Jimbei has Hardening, Sanji doesn't.

Saying Sanji is "Weak" (Not that I think you think that, but think he is weaker than Jimbei by a mile), would be very incorrect to say. It's just right now, they are focusing on escaping, not fighting everyone. It's compare to other certain arcs like Impel Down when they are only facing some people, not everyone so there won't be long one on one fights for this except few like Luffy's.

Though honestly would say they are evenly match, but leaning more on Sanji side on the speed since striking first could lead to heavy damage more from what I see it.

There's a scene that is taken out of context in regards to speed. Sanji can't move so fast that he can't be seen. If you look at the context, it was misdirection. Oven was focused on Pound and because of that, Sanji was able to sneak in an attack undetected and who were the people that didn't see him? Fodder and civilians. Sanji's speed is not significantly great. More so, reason Oven missed Sanji is while his attention was entirely on Pound, he's a 5m tall individual and he has some 3 times smaller than himself attacking him at a blind-spot... it would be like being focused on punching a peer, and then a toddler 3 times smaller than yourself kicked you from a blind-spot.

1. You wouldn't expect it.
2. Fact you're not expecting it would make you completely miss it.

Why Jimbei would lose out to Sanji in speed is questionable when he kept up with Gear 2nd Luffy. Nothing at all indicates Sanji has anything over JImbei.

I think the reality is Sanji is simply weaker than most of his fans expect him to be, that much is a fact and he's lost literally every fight he's had in the New World. He didn't even put up a good fight against Judge, but granted, they had Raid Suits on.

Jimbei outclasses Sanji, that's really the fact. Jimbei has the feats, he has the accolades against opponents, he has Hardening. There's nothing Sanji has that comes close to matching anything Jimbei has done.

Whether he's running away or not doesn't excuse how he's been beat by literally everyone. When he did fight, he did nothing spectacular.

This isn't bashing Sanji, it's literally taking the facts and accepting them for what they are, but it doesn't mean he will remain like this forever. In fact, it makes sense for Sanji to be relatively weak in the lead to this arc in order to sell his predicament as authentic. If he was stomping opponents left right and centre, people would question how Sanji could have been backed against the wall so easily, but this is the reality.

To remotely compare Sanji to guys like Luffy, Zoro and Jimbei at this point? Highly questionable. He has nothing remotely placing him at that tier.