One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[AriesNoShion]

Okay, well, it's not difficult, maybe it is for you.

Sai is regarded as a superior to his brother, Boo.

If Boo can use Armament Haki, it only makes sense that Sai can use it too.

And you're clearly not well read enough to have made the insight that Sai didn't have Black Armament until he fought with his father.

Point nonetheless is, Black Haki can be shown against Black backgrounds, so regardless of Sanji wearing Black pants, it's just an excuse and denial and ignorance on your part.

Please, stop with the ignorance thing, every time you remind me of Michael Jackson in South Park "That's ignorant!"
Nobody has ever said Sai couldn't use armament haki or when... He doesn't use it all the time, that is all, like every other character using it in this manga. The simple fact that Oda didn't explain since timeskip there was a invisible armament haki and a black one "superior" is a fact. He gives specific details each time he introduces new power thing, and this is not the case for your fantasy. There are 2 level of armament Haki:

-the black one used by a lot of people 'Sai, Luffy, Zoro, Sanji, Jimbei, Bellamy, Garp....) the fact it is black or not depends on 2 things: post or pre timeskip. Oda made the poor choice to make it black after timeskip and this is inconsistent with the first part, deal with it.

-the superior one, which is explained and used by the only person using it at this moment: Katakuri.
End of the story, everything else is only YOUR assumption and you have 0 ground to make it a viable thing. Even the anime team doesn't respect the same design as the mangas's (cf Zoro vs Pica)what would make you know better except for your pride..

You're clearly in denial here.

Her blade isn't black, and it's stated that she can indeed use Haki.

But good job claiming the point of this battle was to prove Tashigi can't use Haki despite the fact she can. Great insight genius.

Again it is the same thing as Zoro vs Pica, in the manga the draw it one way and in the anime they draw it another way. The fact is this is armament haki.
It's sad, you think it is something showing the quality of the technique when this is only a cheap way to show readers some new power up shit.This or a"oh my god he uses haki"text box, it's the same...

Luffy using Invisible Haki, but of course, keep deluding yourself.

His all hand is BLACK what more do you want, even the begining of his sleeve...open your eyes dude.

Even the Anime also showcases Invisible Armament Haki.
Nothing less expected from you.

Haha, hell no. This animation proves nothing we see Luffy after he punched him, he turned it off that's al ^^. Or He didn't use it but Caesar was not in gas mode.
Don't worry i don't expect a lot either with you ^^.

Explaining how he has a hard body doesn't change the fact he has a hard body.

And you clearly are not well-read in the Manga as I said because Oda actually states why he has a hard body. He was born that way.

Nonetheless, the point you made about Sanji's weakness being against strong people is still for the record, an unintelligent remark. There's no such thing as having a weakness against strong people, it simply means being inferior.

Haaa he was born this way, sorry i missed that..haha. So who knows, maybe Sanji is born this way too! Maybe he is born with indestructible legs and doesn't fear things like spears or blades...

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

-the black one used by a lot of people 'Sai, Luffy, Zoro, Sanji,

This is a lie. Sanji has never used the Black Armament, he's only used the Invisible one like Tashigi.

As I said before, you're delusional.

Even Cracker's shield isn't Black, yet Luffy states his Haki is hard. Haki is also invisible.

His all hand is BLACK what more do you want, even the begining of his sleeve...open your eyes dude.

You're blind, he's wearing gloves.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 15, 2018, Original Post Date: Apr 15, 2018 ---

In the Anime which you try to use as evidence (anyway, go on to denounce the Anime when it doesn't suit you), his gloves aren't black, but Red.

He grabs Smoker without even using Black Haki, and yet you claim there isn't Invisible Armament Haki.

We even see Luffy grab Monet, a Snow Logia without Black Haki, yet you find it intelligible to claim there's no Invisible Haki?

Like I said, do your research before making silly claims.

 

[AriesNoShion]

This is a lie. Sanji has never used the Black Armament, he's only used the Invisible one like Tashigi.

As I said before, you're delusional.

Even Cracker's shield isn't Black, yet Luffy states his Haki is hard. Haki is also invisible.



You're blind, he's wearing gloves.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 15, 2018, Original Post Date: Apr 15, 2018 ---

In the Anime which you try to use as evidence (anyway, go on to denounce the Anime when it doesn't suit you), his gloves aren't black, but Red.

He grabs Smoker without even using Black Haki, and yet you claim there isn't Invisible Armament Haki.

We even see Luffy grab Monet, a Snow Logia without Black Haki, yet you find it intelligible to claim there's no Invisible Haki?

Like I said, educate yourself and do your research before making silly claims.

It's exhausting to repeat things so many times... There is no such things as "invisible armament haki" being inferior to "black armament haki". If there was, Oda would have explain it as he explained through Katakuri the official new armament haki. You can try and find way to make sense of the inconsistencies about Hakis representation, that won't make it anything else than what it is: inconsitencies.

So what? Whitebeard never used black haki so Bellamy has a stronger Haki than he had?? It makes no sense at all... You have to accept this simple fact: sometimes Oda or Toei chose to picture it in some way and sometimes another one. It makes no sense and that's a schame you use that to declare who is strong or is not...They won't put black EVERY time people use haki cause sometimes it's obvious and that doesn't add anything aesthetically.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

There is no such things as "invisible armament haki" being inferior to "black armament haki". If there was, Oda would have explain it

There is, you're clearly in denial.

If there wasn't, then it should be impossible for Luffy to have grabbed Smoker like this and Caesar.

It is also inferior which is why only the strongest characters possess Black Armament.

Sai unlocked Black Armament only after going through character development.

If there was, Oda would have explain it as he explained through Katakuri the official new armament haki.

There's this thing Oda does where he doesn't explicitly state something, but he implies it because he expects his fans to be somewhat intelligent enough to add 2 and 2 together to make 4 (or to come to easy conclusions).

Oda doesn't say everything explicitly, for the most part, he simply implies it.

It's impossible to make contact with a Logia without their weakness and when that isn't the case, the only answer is Haki.

And it's pretty clear the Invisible is inferior because character who are able to utilise the Invisible Armament and Black only use the Invisible in minor situations and only use the Black Haki when it's absolutely necessary.

If you develop your thinking some more, you'd have come to the realisation that all these characters who have the ability to utilise both variants of Armament only use the Black Haki for their most powerful attacks and when they're in the most dire of situations.

Katakuri also never showcased any new Armament, he merely said there are levels to Armament Haki implying not all Armament are of equal strength. Point Katakuri was making was that his Armament was far superior to that of Luffy's. It was just normal Hardening, nothing new.

You can try and find way to make sense of the inconsistencies about Hakis representation, that won't make it anything else than what it is: inconsitencies.

It's not an inconsistency. All relatively weak characters only possess the Invisible Armament.

So what? Whitebeard never used black haki so Bellamy has a stronger Haki than he had?? It makes no sense at all...

Actually, he can use the Black Haki.

If you did much thinking, you'd realise that pre-skip, the SHs weren't learned or educated in Haki, therefore, they are unable to detect or discern it. Therefore, since we read the Manga from their perspective for the most part, we were also unable to detect or discern Haki. It's not until Rayleigh had taught Luffy about Haki that he became able to distinguish the different variants of Haki, and in turns, the readers.

Only reason there's no Black Haki pre-skip (visually) is simply because Luffy and co. couldn't even detect the most basic form of Armament.

In fact, very early on since the time-skip, the first attack Luffy used was with Invisible Armament where he defeated a Pacifista in 1 shot.

Spoiler

Before you go running and crying to the Anime.

Spoiler

They won't put black EVERY time people use haki cause sometimes it's obvious and that doesn't add anything aesthetically.

Wrong again. It's not about aesthetics. It's about indicating a certain level of Armament Haki that's been attained.

You have to accept this simple fact: sometimes Oda or Toei chose to picture it in some way and sometimes another one. It makes no sense and that's a schame

It's more a case of you being unable to make sense of it.

It's not a case of sometimes adding it or not, it's a case of indicating something to the readers which was clearly not obvious to you.

 

[AriesNoShion]

There is, you're clearly in denial.

If there wasn't, then it should be impossible for Luffy to have grabbed Smoker like this and Caesar.

It is also inferior which is why only the strongest characters possess Black Armament.

Sai unlocked Black Armament only after going through character development.

yes, yes, denial, uneducate, blablabla...
Using anime to make a point here makes me laugh.
And Sai unlocked shit, how do you know he was not able to use it before? We know nothing about him, it was litteraly the first day we saw him...that is the story in your mind, not mine.

There's this thing Oda does where he doesn't explicitly state something, but he implies it because he expects his fans to be somewhat intelligent enough to add 2 and 2 together to make 4 (or to come to easy conclusions).

People who have brains do this thing called deduction where they come to logical conclusions based on the information provided..

Oda doesn't say everything explicitly, for the most part, he simply implies it.

It's impossible to make contact with a Logia without their weakness and when that isn't the case, the only answer is Haki.

And it's pretty clear the Invisible is inferior because character who are able to utilise the Invisible Armament and Black only use the Invisible in minor situations and only use the Black Haki when it's absolutely necessary.

If you develop your thinking some more, you'd have come to the realisation that all these characters who have the ability to utilise both variants of Armament only use the Black Haki for their most powerful attacks and when they're in the most dire of situations.

Katakuri also never showcased any new Armament, he merely said there are levels to Armament Haki implying not all Armament are of equal strength. Point Katakuri was making was that his Armament was far superior to that of Luffy's. It was just normal Hardening, nothing new.

Oh ok, so Oda chose to let us guess, of course what a dummy i am... Logic? Please, you don't even know what it means...
Oda explained very carefully what Haki is. Each type, each way to use it is explained through Rayleygh's training. But for this one and only thing he choose to let us GUESS? Come one you can't be serious, that's the worst excuse i ever read...

We saw people ,with power level so low that Luffy could one punched them, using your "black visible haki"...they re not strong at all. Bellamy dude, you already lost before it started...

For Katakuri, read again dude, read again...treat yourself, 883/884.
883 page 13: "there are things that surpass armament"
884 page 7: even Luffy refers to it as "busou bougyou"...it's armament 2.0
So what? Meanwhile Oda has lost faith in his fan and doesn't like charade anymore??...you don't give arguments, you only assume what could make your point speaking for others, that's funny.

It's not an inconsistency. All relatively weak characters only possess the Invisible Armament.

You only call it an inconsistency because you can't make sense out of it, but that's okay, not everyone is equally intelligent.

I know right? Bellamy next Pirate king, as juicy as Ace...

Actually, he can use the Black Haki.

If you did much thinking, you'd realise that pre-skip, the SHs weren't learned or educated in Haki, therefore, they are unable to detect or discern it. Therefore, since we read the Manga from their perspective for the most part, we were also unable to detect or discern Haki. It's not until Rayleigh had taught Luffy about Haki that he became able to distinguish the different variants of Haki, and in turns, the readers.

Only reason there's no Black Haki pre-skip (visually) is simply because Luffy and co. couldn't even detect the most basic form of Armament.

In fact, very early on since the time-skip, the first attack Luffy used was with Invisible Armament where he defeated a Pacifista in 1 shot.

Spoiler

Before you go running and crying to the Anime.

Spoiler

Wrong again. It's not about aesthetics. It's about indicating a certain level of Armament Haki that's been attained.



It's more a case of you being unable to make sense of it. That's your fault unfortunately.

It's not a case of sometimes adding it or not, it's a case of indicating something to the readers which was clearly not obvious to you.

It's like you're new to the series.

That part is my favourite...
1) first we see the story through the eyes of the SH...(wich one, who knows, it changes all the time...) Remember this time where Luffy&Co watch Ace vs Blackbeard, epic...
2) Whithebeard could use black haki but our eyes weren't ready for it...
3)everything you say is unfounded...
The "capacity" to see or not haki, the difference between black or not black haki, levels of armament haki...everything dude. Not a word in these books which prove your point. So what? Next thing you re gonna say red / black haki from Gear 4 is "superior" to "black" haki?

You need to remember it's just a fiction... And even when you wish things very hard, people don't have to validate all the crazy "implicits" theories you can find to explain some simple things as bad writing or bad anticipations...

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

yes, yes, denial, uneducate, blablabla...
Using anime to make a point here makes me laugh.
And Sai unlocked shit, how do you know he was not able to use it before? We know nothing about him, it was litteraly the first day we saw him...that is the story in your mind, not mine.

It's clear he only just unlocked it because in his previous battle where he was stalemating, he wasn't able to use Black Haki. If he had it, he'd have used it.

And when he used Hardening for the first time, he was surprised and Chinjao praised him for unlocking it too.

Oh ok, so Oda chose to let us guess, of course what a dummy i am... Logic?

Not guess, he simply implied it and you failed to notice it.

Oda explained very carefully what Haki is. Each type, each way to use it is explained through Rayleygh's training.

Actually, you're wrong again.

There are things that Oda didn't explicitly tells us, but hint.

For one, Oda never explicitly told us that Armament Haki is finite, but he implied it.

By saying he's using too much Haki, it implies that Haki is not something one can use infinitely. It's only in the WCI arc that this is explicitly confirmed. Nonetheless, something doesn't need to be explicitly stated to known.

Even the fact characters don't keep Armament Haki activated indefinitely implies they're using it sparingly and only when necessary as one would use anything that is limited.

It just requires paying attention to detail. You just failed to pick it up. There's a lot of details in the Manga not explicitly stated, but implied.

We saw people ,with power level so low that Luffy could one punched them, using your "black visible haki"...they re not strong at all. Bellamy dude, you already lost before it started...

Again, you're incorrect.

Just because another character defeats another character doesn't mean that defeated character is weak. That's poor logic as you're consistently putting on display.

Bellamy being defeated by Luffy isn't proof Bellamy is weak, it's only proof that Luffy is just that strong.

Also, you're clearly ignorant of the fact that Bellamy was extremely injured and already on the verge of death. Just moving around was detrimental to his well-being.

For Katakuri, read again dude, read again...treat yourself, 883/884.
883 page 13: "there are things that surpass armament"
884 page 7: even Luffy refers to it as "busou bougyou"...it's armament 2.0
So what? Meanwhile Oda has lost faith in his fan and doesn't like charade anymore??...you don't give arguments, you only assume what could make your point speaking for others, that's funny.

Wrong again.

As you can see, this so-called "Armament 2.0" is nothing new. Luffy also has those sparks brimming from his fist exactly like Katakuri's fist.

All Katakuri is saying is there are levels to Armament Haki, that much is obvious. He's simply saying his Armament Haki is stronger than Luffy's. It's not 2.0.

Even Cracker's Invisible Armament is implied to almost be superior to Luffy's Black Hardened Armament Haki. It's not a new Haki.

Spoiler

Haki is hard and the reality is everyone's Armament isn't of equal strength.

I know right? Bellamy next Pirate king, as juicy as Ace...

Ace also has Hardening, at least, it's reasonable to presume he does given his pedigree. We simply just don't see Ace using Hardening just like we don't see Whitebeard or Jimbei use it pre-skip because the SH crew weren't yet taught about Haki.

 

[AriesNoShion]

Deduction isn't your forte, that is quite obvious.

It's clear he only just unlocked it because in his previous battle where he was stalemating, he wasn't able to use Black Haki. If he had it, he'd have used it.

And when he used Hardening for the first time, he was surprised and Chinjao praised him for unlocking it too.

Pretty obvious, but I guess you're not very attentive.

Not everyone is blessed by the Goddess my friend, accept the worms for what they are...Check your forehead for time to time, maybe the third eye will show up. Sai didn't use haki before because he didn't need it. Or Sai used haki before but we didn't see it...All scenarios work. No proof at all to make one better than an other one.

Not guess, he simply implied it and you failed to notice it. You being a dummy has already been established but at least you've acknowledged it now.

Where, when, how? (the first part, the second severy single day my friend, every single day.

Actually, you're wrong again.

There are things that Oda didn't explicitly tells us, but hint.

For one, Oda never explicitly told us that Armament Haki is finite, but he implied it.

By saying he's using too much Haki, it implies that Haki is not something one can use infinitely. It's only in the WCI arc that this is explicitly confirmed. Nonetheless, something doesn't need to be explicitly stated to known.

Even the fact characters don't keep Armament Haki activated indefinitely implies they're using it sparingly and only when necessary as one would use anything that is limited.

It just requires paying attention to detail. You just failed to pick it up. There's a lot of details in the Manga not explicitly stated, but implied.

Oh please, not the finite thing...it's clearly a cheap way to make a power up not completley overpowered...Every freaking time Luffy has a lelve up he can't use it more than 5 seconds. He used that with, Gear 2nd, 3rd, 4th and he will do it until the end...Show me one person who used too much haki except him...cheap plot device.
And no, it is implied since dressrosa...the all point of cuting his fight with Doflamingo was because of this...You even give the explicit explanation are you stupid too?
Show me something as explicit as this for your black/invisible haki and i will shut it...

Again, you're incorrect.

Just because another character defeats another character doesn't mean that defeated character is weak. That's poor logic as you're consistently putting on display.

Bellamy being defeated by Luffy isn't proof Bellamy is weak, it's only proof that Luffy is just that strong.

Also, you're clearly ignorant of the fact that Bellamy was extremely injured and already on the verge of death. Just moving around was detrimental to his well-being.

Again??? Seriously, saying that and trying to defend the idea Bellamy is strong... how far will you go down?? Bellamy is shit, not a single strawhat past or future is weaker than this joke...and not only the one in the end of the arc, the fresh one too dude...Nobody would ever lose to such a useless character...The fact you say he is great because you thik he proves your point is laughable...have some respect for yourself, please...

Wrong again genius.

As you can see, this so-called "Armament 2.0" is nothing new. Luffy also has those sparks brimming from his fist exactly like Katakuri's fist.

All Katakuri is saying is there are levels to Armament Haki, that much is obvious. He's simply saying his Armament Haki is stronger than Luffy's. It's not 2.0.

Okay, if you deny the japanese original version what can I do for you poor thing..It's not like Luffy's favourite hobby was to find new techniques name in random moments... You imply a lot of things with so little and here, when things are right in front of your eyes you're blind? Who is delusional here?

Even Cracker's Invisible Armament is implied to almost be superior to Luffy's Black Hardened Armament Haki. It's not a new Haki.

Spoiler

Haki is hard and the reality is everyone's Armament isn't of equal strength.

Educated yourself, do yourself a favour.

Magical...you prove yourself wrong...It's late i know but come on, give me something to do at least!
"it's harder than anythig i've come across"...and yet, it is "invisible haki"??? What the hell, you say since the begening that black haki > invisible haki?? Could you be more full of crap? Even YOU don't know what you're saying anymore...
Obviously there are levels of armament haki. Pica and Zoro said it before: between two haki user, the who who will win will be the one with the strongest haki. (who would have thought?) and that has nothing to do with how this haki is pictured...Cracker and Luffy just proved it here no?

Ace also has Hardening, at least, it's reasonable to presume he does given his pedigree. We simply just don't see Ace using Hardening just like we don't see Whitebeard or Jimbei use it pre-skip because the SH crew weren't yet taught about Haki.

Clearly, this is far too complicated for you to understand.

no please, too much..."given his pedigree"...the guy never won against anyone the entire manga and you're speaking about "pedigree"...hilarious.

See through the eyes is a common term used metaphorically, but clearly, even something so simple, you can't understand. See through the eyes is a figure of speech that denotes to perspective.

Things do not have to be explicitly stated to be true.

Someone with your level of intelligence would seemingly claim Jozu to not be an Armament Haki user despite the fact he was able to hit Aokiji despite being a Logia. Some things are implied, certain humans have evolved the capacity to comprehend these things.

I wonder how many extra chromosomes you have at this point.

And again, your theory about seeing what SH can or can not see is worthless.
Of course things have to be explicitly stated, otherwise some clowns justify anything with very little.

You wanna know the horrible truth? Oda is not good with power up and made a stupid mistake with the haki things. And he did it again with the observaion haki 2.0 allowing people to see in the future: These ideas don't work for a manga, it's too hard to make a fluent, dynamic battle with such things... Especially when you chose to implement all these things right in the middle of the story, when supposed strongest people have already been displayed...
That is one of the few things Kishimoto handled way better with Naruto than Oda with One piece...

I do think that Jozu, Whitebeards and co used haki. But after timeskip, with fishmen island Arc, Oda decided to change the visual because it would be easier to picture it this way. It doesn't hurt the story, but it creates inconsistencies and stupid theories like invisible haki < black haki....

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Sai didn't use haki before because he didn't need it. Or Sai used haki before but we didn't see it...All scenarios work. No proof at all to make one better than an other one.

Characters who have Haki use it, therefore, during combat, they'll use it whenever it's necessary. This is a case of reasonable assumptions because there are no visual cues with Invisible Armament besides from dialogue.

Sanji only possesses the Invisible Armament, so it's only reasonable to assume like every other fighter who possesses Invisible Armament, to use it whenever it's convenient.

However, with your logic, it implies that Sanji hasn't been using Armament Haki all this time which makes him appear rather foolish.

Oh please, not the finite thing...it's clearly a cheap way to make a power up not completley overpowered...Every freaking time Luffy has a lelve up he can't use it more than 5 seconds. He used that with, Gear 2nd, 3rd, 4th and he will do it until the end...Show me one person who used too much haki except him...cheap plot device.
And no, it is implied since dressrosa...the all point of cuting his fight with Doflamingo was because of this...You even give the explicit explanation are you stupid too?
Show me something as explicit as this for your black/invisible haki and i will shut it...

No one has Armament Haki activated 24/7 because it's something that is finite. If that weren't the case, every character capable of using Hardening would literally be black for the entirety of the fight. It's used on and off.

It's not a cheap plot device, that's a rather stupid assessment because even before it was stated that Luffy was wasting Haki, every character just like him had also been using it sparingly.

Again??? Seriously, saying that and trying to defend the idea Bellamy is strong... how far will you go down?? Bellamy is shit, not a single strawhat past or future is weaker than this joke...and not only the one in the end of the arc, the fresh one too dude...Nobody would ever lose to such a useless character...The fact you say he is great because you thik he proves your point is laughable...have some respect for yourself, please...

I never said he was great.

As a generalisation, he's strong and all characters in One Piece are generally strong.


As a generalisation, he's strong as are many other characters, even Don Krieg can be regarded as strong because he's able to do something normal characters in One Piece cannot do. Characters that can pick up buildings and punch hole through walls or destroy entire buildings with 1 to 2 attacks, that's strength; normal characters cannot do this.

Characters are only weak in relation to another. If you compare Luffy against Usopp, Luffy is clearly stronger; compare Luffy to Shanks, Luffy is weaker. Strength comparisons are relative.

It's nothing to do with defending a character. It's just a fact.

And to claim Bellamy weaker than all the SH characters is rather foolish. Characters like Nami or Robin or Brook or Chopper or Usopp who do not have Hardening, yet you claim them weaker than Bellamy? Again, you're not someone that's able to think objectively or logically.

"it's harder than anythig i've come across"...and yet, it is "invisible haki"??? What the hell, you say since the begening that black haki > invisible haki?? Could you be more full of crap? Even YOU don't know what you're saying anymore...

Hardening (Black Haki) is Superior to Invisible Haki at an individual level.

Luffy's Black Haki is superior to his Invisible Haki, that much is a fact. Zoro's Black Haki is superior to his Invisible Haki. Sai's Black Haki is superior to his Invisible Haki.

Characters don't all have an equal level of Haki. Cracker's Invisible Haki is inferior to his own Black Haki, however, it's possible for Cracker to simply have a level of Haki so high that even his Invisible Armament is superior to Luffy's Black Haki.

Obviously there are levels of armament haki. Pica and Zoro said it before: between two haki user, the who who will win will be the one with the strongest haki. (who would have thought?) and that has nothing to do with how this haki is pictured...Cracker and Luffy just proved it here no?

Wrong again, clear sign you lack understanding of this Manga.

Haki alone doesn't determine who wins a fight.

Physical strength plays a huge role too.

Cracker's Haki was superior to Luffy's, yet Luffy won.

Katakuri's Haki was superior to Luffy's, yet, Luffy won. Even in their final clash while in Gear 4th, Luffy was still feeling pain from Katakuri,s Haki, so whoever has the stronger Haki doesn't necessarily win.

You're not accustomed to the concept of taking things into context.

You probably have no clue how flawed your rationale is here. You claim whoever has the stronger Haki wins.. yet if we take this nonsense you take out of context as literal, then why is it...

• that Luffy who possessed no Armament Haki defeated an Armament Haki with brute strength?

You're going to make some excuse, but the answer nonetheless is that if brute strength alone can overpower Armament Haki, it implies that superior Haki doesn't decide who wins a fight. Brute Strength + Haki will determine this in a clash.

no please, too much..."given his pedigree"...the guy never won against anyone the entire manga and you're speaking about "pedigree"...hilarious.

Fought against Jimbei to a stalemate; fought against the 3 strongest characters in the series and stood his own for the most part. He's the only one people saw fit to succeed Whitebeard and become Pirate King.

You wanna know the horrible truth? Oda is not good with power up and made a stupid mistake with the haki things. And he did it again with the observaion haki 2.0 allowing people to see in the future:

Nope, that's a fallacy.

We already saw this so-called Observation 2.0 in Marineford with Luffy. He already had a talent for it before now.

I do think that Jozu, Whitebeards and co used haki. But after timeskip, with fishmen island Arc, Oda decided to change the visual because it would be easier to picture it this way. It doesn't hurt the story, but it creates inconsistencies and stupid theories like invisible haki < black haki....

Every capable reader literally knows there are 2 variants of Armament Haki.

 

[AriesNoShion]

Characters who have Haki use it, therefore, during combat, they'll use it whenever it's necessary. This is a case of reasonable assumptions because there are no visual cues with Invisible Armament besides from dialogue.

Sanji only possesses the Invisible Armament, so it's only reasonable to assume like every other fighter who possesses Invisible Armament, to use it whenever it's convenient.

However, with your logic, it implies that Sanji hasn't been using Armament Haki all this time which makes him appear rather foolish.

Wrong...Pica and Vergo didn't use it until they were cornered. Why would you use a "finite" ability if you didn't really need it... Except G old fart, Sai didn't meet opponents who was worth the pain...
Blabla sanji delusional "invisible" armament...bla...

No one has Armament Haki activated 24/7 because it's something that is finite. If that weren't the case, every character capable of using Hardening would literally be black for the entirety of the fight. It's used on and off.

It's not a cheap plot device, that's a rather stupid assessment because even before it was stated that Luffy was wasting Haki, every character just like him had also been using it sparingly.

Like nobody tighten their muscles indefinitely...That was obvious. But Luffy is the only one who uses it to the point that he can't even move a muscle...Never we saw that with anyone but Luffy...cheap nerf plot device.

I never said he was great.

As a generalisation, he's strong and all characters in One Piece are generally strong.


As a generalisation, he's strong as are many other characters, even Don Krieg can be regarded as strong because he's able to do something normal characters in One Piece cannot do. Characters that can pick up buildings and punch hole through walls or destroy entire buildings with 1 to 2 attacks, that's strength; normal characters cannot do this.

Characters are only weak in relation to another. If you compare Luffy against Usopp, Luffy is clearly stronger; compare Luffy to Shanks, Luffy is weaker. Strength comparisons are relative.

It's nothing to do with defending a character. It's just a fact.

And to claim Bellamy weaker than all the SH characters is rather foolish. Characters like Nami or Robin or Brook or Chopper or Usopp who do not have Hardening, yet you claim them weaker than Bellamy? Again, you're not someone that's able to think objectively or logically.

You say invisible haki < black haki...the second when Bellamy used black haki you should have know it was a doomed theory. That's how lame Bellamy is. Actually I think it's the first time he has any purpose: he makes my point perfectly.
Let's resume this:
1/ Bellamy uses black haki
2/Cracker uses invisible haki and Luffy says it's the hardest thing he ever met
3/ conclusion -> ranking haki with such things as "it's black" or "it's invisible" is shit.

It's about honesty you know,...without it, yes you can go on and on, that won't make it true.

Hardening (Black Haki) is Superior to Invisible Haki at an individual level.

Luffy's Black Haki is superior to his Invisible Haki, that much is a fact. Zoro's Black Haki is superior to his Invisible Haki. Sai's Black Haki is superior to his Invisible Haki.

Characters don't all have an equal level of Haki. Cracker's Invisible Haki is inferior to his own Black Haki, however, it's possible for Cracker to simply have a level of Haki so high that even his Invisible Armament is superior to Luffy's Black Haki.

It changed again Now, it's all relative..That makes more sense isn't it? So great! You finally admit that one "invisible haki" can be far superior to another black haki...phew, we progress. At this point, ranking the quality of haki by his appearence should be pointless, even with your brain... People have haki level, and the way Oda chose to display it doesn't give what can be expected as a haki fighter.

Wrong again, clear sign you lack understanding of this Manga.

Haki alone doesn't determine who wins a fight.

Physical strength plays a huge role too.

Cracker's Haki was superior to Luffy's, yet Luffy won.

Katakuri's Haki was superior to Luffy's, yet, Luffy won. Even in their final clash while in Gear 4th, Luffy was still feeling pain from Katakuri,s Haki, so whoever has the stronger Haki doesn't necessarily win.

You're not accustomed to the concept of taking things into context.

You probably have no clue how flawed your rationale is here. You claim whoever has the stronger Haki wins.. yet if we take this nonsense you take out of context as literal, then why is it...

• that Luffy who possessed no Armament Haki defeated an Armament Haki with brute strength?

You're going to make some excuse, but the answer nonetheless is that if brute strength alone can overpower Armament Haki, it implies that superior Haki doesn't decide who wins a fight. Brute Strength + Haki will determine this in a clash.

You love so much saying people are wrong ...even when people state exactly what is said word for word in the manga...chapter 778 page 13.."Zoro: that's only if your haki is stronger than mine"..
Obviously i was speaking about a clash of haki between 2 guys at a very specific moment and not as a general rule. Of curse Luffy broke opponents who used haki way better than he did...
Don't put your filthy words into my mouth dude, i can tell my own BS thank you.

Fought against Jimbei to a stalemate; fought against the 3 strongest characters in the series and stood his own for the most part. He's the only one people saw fit to succeed Whitebeard and become Pirate King.

Shhh, it's gonna be okay, it's gonna be okay... You want the future pirate king pedigree? There it is:
Ace vs Smoker: tie, nobody won, nobody lost
Ace vs Jimbei: tie, nobody won, nobody lost
Ace vs Whitebeard:...it's no even a fight...a fly would have had the same efficiency
Ace vs Blackbeard: he lost...and Blackbeard was even a newbie regarding of the poor experience he had over his DF...Ace had his DF for years...
Ace vs Akainu: even Marco did a better job...he was totally helpless..

So, there is your "pedigree"..he was the son of Gol D Roger, that is all.

Nope, that's a fallacy.

We already saw this so-called Observation 2.0 in Marineford with Luffy. He already had a talent for it before now.

One thing Luffy has always had is battle instinct. He is great at dodging and has some great intelectual abilities when it comes to a fight (shonen main character). Guessing when you take high risks against a strong opponent like Mihawk doesn't make you psychic, it's common sense...

But that was not the point, of course oda gave hint there and there, and you can choose to believe it was on purpose or not. He did it with Mantra / haki, why not here?? That was not the point of my statement. My point was, haki + seeing the future are bad choices because it's hard to picture it efficiently in a fight for a mangaka... That's wht they chose to colour the body parts with armament haki sometimes. But for the psychic one, he s doomed... Every single times Luffy will use it, we ll have tosee what would have happend "if"...and believe me, this will get old very fast...

Every capable reader literally knows there are 2 variants of Armament Haki.

I know right?
- Busoshoku Haki
- Busou Bougyou Haki

everything except that is pure fabrication

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Wrong...Pica and Vergo didn't use it until they were cornered. Why would you use a "finite" ability if you didn't really need it... Except G old fart, Sai didn't meet opponents who was worth the pain...
Blabla sanji delusional "invisible" armament...bla...




Like nobody tighten their muscles indefinitely...That was obvious. But Luffy is the only one who uses it to the point that he can't even move a muscle...Never we saw that with anyone but Luffy...cheap nerf plot device.



You say invisible haki < black haki...the second when Bellamy used black haki you should have know it was a doomed theory. That's how lame Bellamy is. Actually I think it's the first time he has any purpose: he makes my point perfectly.
Let's resume this:
1/ Bellamy uses black haki
2/Cracker uses invisible haki and Luffy says it's the hardest thing he ever met
3/ conclusion -> ranking haki with such things as "it's black" or "it's invisible" is shit.

It's about honesty you know,...without it, yes you can go on and on, that won't make it true.



It changed again Now, it's all relative..That makes more sense isn't it? So great! You finally admit that one "invisible haki" can be far superior to another black haki...phew, we progress. At this point, ranking the quality of haki by his appearence should be pointless, even with your brain... People have haki level, and the way Oda chose to display it doesn't give what can be expected as a haki fighter.



You love so much saying people are wrong ...even when people state exactly what is said word for word in the manga...chapter 778 page 13.."Zoro: that's only if your haki is stronger than mine"..
Obviously i was speaking about a clash of haki between 2 guys at a very specific moment and not as a general rule. Of curse Luffy broke opponents who used haki way better than he did...
Don't put your filthy words into my mouth dude, i can tell my own BS thank you.



Shhh, it's gonna be okay, it's gonna be okay... You want the future pirate king pedigree? There it is:
Ace vs Smoker: tie, nobody won, nobody lost
Ace vs Jimbei: tie, nobody won, nobody lost
Ace vs Whitebeard:...it's no even a fight...a fly would have had the same efficiency
Ace vs Blackbeard: he lost...and Blackbeard was even a newbie regarding of the poor experience he had over his DF...Ace had his DF for years...
Ace vs Akainu: even Marco did a better job...he was totally helpless..

So, there is your "pedigree"..he was the son of Gol D Roger, that is all.



One thing Luffy has always had is battle instinct. He is great at dodging and has some great intelectual abilities when it comes to a fight (shonen main character). Guessing when you take high risks against a strong opponent like Mihawk doesn't make you psychic, it's common sense...

But that was not the point, of course oda gave hint there and there, and you can choose to believe it was on purpose or not. He did it with Mantra / haki, why not here?? That was not the point of my statement. My point was, haki + seeing the future are bad choices because it's hard to picture it efficiently in a fight for a mangaka... That's wht they chose to colour the body parts with armament haki sometimes. But for the psychic one, he s doomed... Every single times Luffy will use it, we ll have tosee what would have happend "if"...and believe me, this will get old very fast...


I know right?
- Busoshoku Haki
- Busou Bougyou Haki

everything except that is pure fabrication

The only thing you've done is be in denial regarding Invisible Armament being a thing in the series.

As Sanji has never once used this Black Armament, you're more or less implying Sanji has never used Armament Haki since the New World, lol.

 

[M3J]

If we use Luffy as proof, then the sea doesn't nullify the devil fruit user's ability, it just makes him weaker. Luffy's body could still be stretched underwater, whereas his body would be solid if he was touching seastone. Likewise, users like Kuzan and Oven could touch water and still use their powers, which wouldn't really make them weaker since it's just a hand or two.

 

[hokageji]

Since we are DF vs sea topic.... Chopper had turned into his monster point in Enes Lobby... When he hit the water, he turned into his normal too.... That would have to do somewhat with his DF ability right?

 

[hokageji]

Kaido fight is being hyped so much, its gonna be hard for Oda to keep upto it. The last time i was excited about a fight as much and not disappointed was Naruto vs Pain, also probably the last time i wasnt disappointed with Naruto series,,,
We can expect Kaido to be same sort of Iron Balloon like Big Mama.. We can expect him to be the strongest character we've seen... yes, stronger than Whitebard too, since Whitebeard was aged and the arc still cover the best he had to offer... We can expect him a plan to taken him down completely failing with Luffy coming to rescue. But Oda will ahve to introduce something new there. Snakeman aint gonna cut it, probably Gear 5 will be introduced...

Oh man, Wano arc is gonna be so amazing.. Wonder what'll happen now.. I hope the strawhats get a clean escape. I mean, i'd love to see more battles, speically Sanji.. but what i want much more than that is to move on... Its been a good arc, but its dragged for too long.. Please move to the next part.

 

[M3J]

Since we are DF vs sea topic.... Chopper had turned into his monster point in Enes Lobby... When he hit the water, he turned into his normal too.... That would have to do somewhat with his DF ability right?

Well, his entire body did go into the sea, and the rumble ball probably wore off as well.

Kaido fight is being hyped so much, its gonna be hard for Oda to keep upto it. The last time i was excited about a fight as much and not disappointed was Naruto vs Pain, also probably the last time i wasnt disappointed with Naruto series,,,
We can expect Kaido to be same sort of Iron Balloon like Big Mama.. We can expect him to be the strongest character we've seen... yes, stronger than Whitebard too, since Whitebeard was aged and the arc still cover the best he had to offer... We can expect him a plan to taken him down completely failing with Luffy coming to rescue. But Oda will ahve to introduce something new there. Snakeman aint gonna cut it, probably Gear 5 will be introduced...

Oh man, Wano arc is gonna be so amazing.. Wonder what'll happen now.. I hope the strawhats get a clean escape. I mean, i'd love to see more battles, speically Sanji.. but what i want much more than that is to move on... Its been a good arc, but its dragged for too long.. Please move to the next part.

THe problem with Luffy vs. Kaidou is that he will definitely lose without help or one hell of a powerup. I can see this fight being a disappointment for some reason.

 

[hokageji]

Well, his entire body did go into the sea, and the rumble ball probably wore off as well.

So he did lose control of his body, so rumble ball effect wore off too.... Looking at rumble ball effects, Kaido's crew might be heavily interested...

THe problem with Luffy vs. Kaidou is that he will definitely lose without help or one hell of a powerup. I can see this fight being a disappointment for some reason.

Powerup for sure.... I'd love to see multiple people take him down.. Like Law, Moria and Luffy together maybe... or just Law and Luffy, that'll be amazing.. But Oda likes the idea of a typical shonen protagonist with Luffy so a powerup is definitely due. I think he may show an advanced way of using King's haki in the battle.

 

[M3J]

Oh, I'd bet so too. They get more destructive power, so that's a plus, and I doubt they care about who and what they damage. Could be their version of Saiyans going giant ape when they see a moon on different planets.

If Law and Luffy had difficulty beating Doflamingo, and Luffy could barely beat Cracker and Katakuri, then both of them combined WITH Zoro shouldn't be able to make Kaidou sweat that much without each getting some sort of powerups.

 

[XXGenesis]

I’ve been re-reading the Katakuri vs Luffy fight. & Overall been watching a lot of fights over in One Piece...I think Katakuri May be the weakest Top lv Yonko Commander....& Admirals Like Kuzan imo still hold a slight edge in a 1 in 1 battle against any top Yonko commander...Similar to how Marco was able to fight against the admirals but after a long fight & distractions said admirals will start to tip the tide, while being Fairly uninjured....

 

[Freid]

Powerup for sure.... I'd love to see multiple people take him down.. Like Law, Moria and Luffy together maybe... or just Law and Luffy, that'll be amazing..

I'm not sure I'd love it but I half expect it. The reason I say half is because the more Luffy gets help to win, the less and less believable his one on ones against stronger opponents will be as he moves forward. Kaidou seems like a big brute so perhaps the match up won't be so bad, and if Oda does choose to go in this direction I'm sure we'll see Luffy lose a few times, maybe almost die too before he does his Shonen thing and goes ultra instinct.

Also I may be asking for too much but lord I pray Luffy's next power up isn't another way to punch harder or faster.

 

[afromarco005]

Show me anyone post timeskip who can stop a blade, a spear... with his bare hand or feet without using haki or DF and we can start to have a real discussion. And not a random fodder like chestpieces, near Judge power level. the "invisible armament haki"

What are you on about?

Spoiler

judge is top 5

 

[King Moe]

Boy he said survived don't put words in his mouth in your desperate attempt to make any sense.

Spoiler

Current Sanji stronger than Ace? I take it you are either trolling or you are reading a whole different manga, Ace is closer to luffy albeit in my opinion luffy has surpassed him than.



Still downplaying Jinbei's feats when he did

Spoiler: this

Survived this

Spoiler: this

No vice admiral bar garp is tanking such a hit from Akainu-kun without dying, and Ace fought evenly with such a beast for 5 days!!!
And I could also argue that it's more sanji thats on a capitain/vice admiral level of strenght at max as vergo was a marine working for DD and he was a vice admiral and he was already way beyond the likes of Sanji...

And most recently we have

Spoiler: this

And he tanked

Spoiler: this named attack from a cakelusted mama

and came out unscathed Sanji did nothing comparable to this, you keep referencing this

Spoiler

but please understand that :

• This is a casual big mom punch not a serious named attack
• big mom went easy on them as she thought herself to be way stronger than her opponents
  
• big mom is not using haki
  
• this is mostly luffy's strenght blocking big mom punch he is the one directly colliding with most of her arm thanks to gear third sanji is just a bonus
• Mama didn't even flinch

"Survived" Survived by running away, letting others help them out in running away like Crocodile, Ivankov, etc.. Dude, your the delusional one if you think Jimbei could defeat Akainu when it was shown he is no where near strong as Akainu even burned his damn hand and it was visible seen Jimbei was struggling against him.

You honestly think Ace is equal to Luffy still? Lol, We hardly don't know Ace if he skilled in other Haki except Conqueror and so far it shown to be struggle with other users who have it or more skilled in combat like Akainu and don't say "Oh he went toe to toe with Aokoji and didn't struggle one bit", that is because of DF nature powers which is the same thing with Luffy vs Enel as type of DF gave Ace an edge, but if you think he is more skill than the Admirals and such, your really losing it lol xD.

So far as we seen from Ace, Sanji won't have much trouble from him at all, so get out of here with that troll of yours lol.

I am not down playing Jimbei feats as again I respect the hell out of him and he is one of my favorite characters, but you guys on your end are downplaying Sanji feats as if he never done anything in the entirety of One Piece and only judge him for not having an long ass one on one fight in the end. I said before it be an close fight between them, but still see Sanji a bit above Jimbei.

Also again with the "Big Mom Feat" of pushing her back. Afro, your not convincing me on that just like how Hannibal failed to convince me on that. She was both nerfed and weaken and it been mention many times in the manga and how her body state was deteriorating. That's not a huge feat if someone is already down and weaken by something. That's like saying Luffy defeated Cracker all on his own without the help of Nami assistant against his powers when we all know Luffy needed help against that opponent. So when Jimbei is able to push back BM when she isn't crazy hunger and delirious, I will respect that, but until then I am not seeing that as a feat.

Now for your bottom part about Big Mom:

1. That is a serious attack since she aiming to kill and hurt their bodies in the most devastating ways after they ruined her party and destroy her cake.
2. Why would you go that easy on your opponents if your aiming to hurt them? That logic doesn't make sense at all.
3. How you know? So far we seen two type of Haki being both the regular invisible one and the Armament Hardening, so can't rule out that she could be using the invisible regular Haki lvl as again why would she not try to kill her enemies after enraging her like this?
4. No it's not as again it took Gear 4th for Luffy to block an hard punch from her alone, so saying that he can do it again in Gear 3rd which is weaker than Gear 4th he can do it? Nah, sorry no convince there. Sanji and Luffy block the share force together to withstand it. If Oda thought Luffy alone could handle it, why send out another person to help him block it especially another stronger fighter like Sanji? He doesn't do bonus like that with his writing, so that isn't it.
5. I know. I never said they hurt her, I said they block and share her attack. Also remember this is an full power BM at the moment compare to Jimbei on who he was facing before. So again, Jimbei pushing back BM in the other state, is no feat as if he was able to push her back while Gear 4th did nothing to push her, that would mean Jimbei is stronger than Luffy and even Gear 4th which doesn't make the lick of sense in power scaling and how Oda wrote it.

Again to you and the other Jimbei Fans, I am not dissing Jimbei or saying he is weak as shit. He is a very tough fighter and I respect the hell out of him, but you guys are also pretending Sanji isn't strong anymore or he can't compete against them despite the fact he has shown some combat feat in this arc with able to knock down some BM pirates like Oven around with no stress or struggling in pushing him back, block an giant haki armor genie from Daifuku who easily cut ships early in chapters ago with one kick, speed feat that he is so fast no one noticed him at all as time moves, etc..

Listen I know Sanji has not got an one on one long ass fight since for awhile. I am not blind to the facts and who he been facing, though in defense, Doflaimgo was someone who wasn't going to be defeated except by Luffy alone as we seen how he decimated other fighters as look what happened to Law and Bellamy, etc., so bagging on Sanji about it while others got messed up on him is also an unfair target when no one could just handle him, you know.

As for Vergo, can you all stop saying that "Sanji got his assed handed to him by Vergo" shit cause no he didn't at all. You all seem to forget that Sanji made first strike both a sneak attack and then in front of Vergo and send the man flying twice and into a wall twice. While it's true he did hurt Sanji a bit with his leg cracking, though that doesn't mean Sanji was done fighting. He kept fighting with both his legs (even the injured one) and wouldn't have give up during the confrontation until Vergo himself choose to leave. We have no idea on how it would go down if continue and don't use the excuse that with a cracked leg Sanji would lose.

This is One Piece, we seen certain characters get hurt badly and continue fighting to the end. For example, since you want to talk about bone cracking, remember Usopp after he took a freaking 4-Ton bat to the skull? That could kill a person and he should have been dead let alone knockout. Though he came back up and soon defeated Mr. 4 and Ms. Groundhog Day along with Chopper.

Saying Sanji would have been beaten down and he would give up, would show you don't know these characters well on how they would fight and that Sanji would go down fighting Vergo to the end and could win as well. If Usopp have his skull crack and kept fighting, why Sanji would lose due to only an leg cracking? Cause he fight only with his legs? Please...You guys really underestimate Sanji too much over just wanting a good fight out of him more.

In conclusion, I love Jimbei and I love Sanji and if I were to square them up, The fight will be CLOSE, but I still see Sanji winning a bit on his end still. I respect other opinions, but don't come back at me with attitude please.