One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[hokageji]

I think Zoro can cut through much more than Luffy can punch through. I personally feel that Luffy v Cracker was a bad matchup. However if Zoro had fought Cracker it would likely have been a much shorter fight. Because, as it showed, Cracker was only able to use Haki on the biscuit soldier he was inhabiting, so Zoro would have made short work of the non haki soldiers, even if he kept pumping them out I think Zoro would have been able to cut through them so easily it would have been pointless. May as well be throwing flower, the ingredient not the plants, at Zoro.

Haki is nothing more than hardening.. Yes, it provides tangibility to DF, but it doesnt weaken the opponent, atleast not armament, the one we are speaking about..
Zoro's hardening was to prevent his sword from damaging, and at the same time, it'll make harder to damage harder substances.... So for Zoro to cut Rocks he couldnt, his haki will have to be harder than the rock....
Same applies with Cracker, his biscuits may be hard without haki, but if Luffys haki wasnt strong enough, than Zoro's would have to be stronger to break through, and at this point of the story, there is no evidence of such.

@hokageji I dont think Crackers real body was extremely weak and he didnt say such thing. He said he dislikes pain and because of that he uses biscuit body. He was taken out by an attack which imo is on the same level as King Kong Gun or even stronger (if we apply the logic) but as we saw such caliber took out Doffy as well in one hit and would arguably take out Katakuri as well if it would hit.

You could beright on this @nik87, but the attack went through his own biscuit creations which are extremely hard themselves, so that could be why he got knocked out too... it wasnt an ordinary impacted attack...

 

[Pirate Queen]

Hi there.

I believe my opinion was clear. The two charcter mention have historically been equal in ability. Thus far, since time skip, we have seen Zoro handel an admiral better than Luffy. However we have seen nothing, absolutely nothing else from zoro. So I agree with the lack of canonized information. I do not agree with the evidence you have presented thus far. What you have demonstrated is Zoro has been given the least amount of panels oitbof the big three since timeskip. Zoro had one fight a scuffle and a dust up since time skip.

Also I'm betting he has the CoC we just haven't witnessed it. Almos sure due to wording at FI but I cld be wrong so ima say 60/40

Hey back lol. I'm glad we agree on the lack of Zoro characterization.

I disagree that Zoro was able to handle an Admiral better than Luffy. He blocked a halfassed attack from Issho, but that is by far his best feat (Which I think is downplayed by alot of people here on this forum as blocking ANY attack from an Admiral is impressive. Even more so since Zoro easily countered with a flying slash of his own)

When Luffy encountered Issho and the 2 skirmished, Issho displayed a far higher level of skill and even used names attacks against Luffy. which Luffy then faired well against, even countering them.And he was warning Issho of his attacks before hand. And lastly, Issho himself stated Luffy had the power to back up his claims of contending with Admirals and Yonko.(This quote is highly debated, but since we are discussing our difference of opinions, this is how I choose to read this quote) (Zoro was not given any such praise

I just am not seeing how they have been historically equal.

-While Zoro was struggling with Daz Bones and wining, Luffy was struggling with Crocodile and winning.

- While Zoro fought/defeated Ryumma, Luffy fought/defeated Moriah[+100 shadows] (The most impressive tanking scene in this primetime skip has to be Zoro tanking Kuma afterwards tho, so that has to go to Zoro)

Can you provide examples of how they are historically equal? Perhaps I am missing something.

This, like you said can all be chalked up to Zoro having less panels(like we agree upon) BUT that doesnt mean we can say Luffy = Zoro. We just dont have the panel proof to back up those claims.

I like you believe Zoro have CoC and like you I refer to FI and Luffy asking Zoro and Sanji if they sensed a wild animal around and both agreed. In this we have to refer to Oda as it pertains to specialty

Luffy specializes in Conquerors Haki
Sanji in Observation Haki
Zoro in Armament Haki

But that was after the time skip. Neither Zoro or Sanji have shown a mastery of any haki over Luffy at this point, but that doesnt mean they dont have a specialty with that haki

nor does it mean they can use the other types of haki, they just dont specialize in it.

In these coming chapters in Wano I have no doubt haki utilization will be a key factor in many of these fight sequences.

This next chapter can set up a 6 way battle:

Hawkins Holden Speed
vs
Luffy Law and Zoro

I am hoping haki it further utilized by all characters.

Like I said before, haki is so hard to assess, but i mainly blame Oda for this

 

[Hrathgrath]

I have a theory

I think Tama is maybe Ace's daughter and the big lady o-Kiku samourai is her mother
Just a theory but if true, this means why they want to kidnap Tama

Would be cool as hell, but unless Ace fathered her before he left Luffy to become a pirate it’s not possible.

Already proven impossible. When Ace arrived in Wano she already had 5 years and i think she was already born before Ace set out to sea.

@Hrathgrath I agree, Zoro would have a much easier time slicing the biscuit army, the only issue could be his real body clad in haki. Not sure if Cracker used CoA on his main biscuit body, my guess is not, at least for defense and since Luffy was able to punch through it im sure Zoro would cut it with ease. After all, he is able to cut through steel, i doubt the biscuits are tougher no matter how hard they were.

@hokageji I dont think Crackers real body was extremely weak and he didnt say such thing. He said he dislikes pain and because of that he uses biscuit body. He was taken out by an attack which imo is on the same level as King Kong Gun or even stronger (if we apply the logic) but as we saw such caliber took out Doffy as well in one hit and would arguably take out Katakuri as well if it would hit.

He used haki on his main biscuit body several times, usually with his shield(s).

Don't think from what we've seen that Zoro could beat Cracker. It honestly didn't even seem like Luffy could without help.

Agree to disagree I guess lol! All a matter of opinion at this point I guess!

Hi there.

I believe my opinion was clear. The two charcter mention have historically been equal in ability. Thus far, since time skip, we have seen Zoro handel an admiral better than Luffy. However we have seen nothing, absolutely nothing else from zoro. So I agree with the lack of canonized information. I do not agree with the evidence you have presented thus far. What you have demonstrated is Zoro has been given the least amount of panels oitbof the big three since timeskip. Zoro had one fight a scuffle and a dust up since time skip.

Also I'm betting he has the CoC we just haven't witnessed it. Almos sure due to wording at FI but I cld be wrong so ima say 60/40

We saw Zoro cut through a Pascifista with what looked like little effort. Since Zoro uses swords he is able to put his strength, which may or may not be more than Luffy’s, into a smaller area. Think pushing on your skin, 100 pounds of pressure with a hand vs 100 pounds of pressure with a needle. The needle with probably pierce into if not all the way through your arm, where as the hand, dispersing the pressure over a greater area would likely do little if any damage. Basically the edge of Zoro’s sword would give him “the edge” in a battle with Cracker. Atomic Samurai style! (http://onepunchman.wikia.com/wiki/Kamikaze)

 

[hokageji]

This next chapter can set up a 6 way battle:

Hawkins Holden Speed
vs
Luffy Law and Zoro

THat'll be an interesting matchup...

As of now, Luffy is strong enough to take down Hawkins, whose only battle we've witnessed till date post timeskip is taking down Caribou with ease...

Holden makes me think so much about MGM @ las vegas.... the card game + the Lion...that is what his silhouette looks like... Zoro would be a good matchup with his one sword style move called lion's song already.
Law vs Speed will be intersting since
I am guessing Speed will be an interesting battle with Law if it happens... Assuming Speed is quick, (guessing Cheetah or Ostrich DF), Law will be at a disadvantage..

He used haki on his main biscuit body several times, usually with his shield(s).

I missed that one, but i did see him cut Luffy's haki imbued hand. Atleast till the point of the battle, Cracker's haki imbued sword was stronger than Luffys, thats a fair assumption... which comes back to why Zoro's isnt up to that level...

 

[TrueRaiKage]

Hey back lol. I'm glad we agree on the lack of Zoro characterization.

I disagree that Zoro was able to handle an Admiral better than Luffy. He blocked a halfassed attack from Issho, but that is by far his best feat (Which I think is downplayed by alot of people here on this forum as blocking ANY attack from an Admiral is impressive. Even more so since Zoro easily countered with a flying slash of his own)

When Luffy encountered Issho and the 2 skirmished, Issho displayed a far higher level of skill and even used names attacks against Luffy. which Luffy then faired well against, even countering them.And he was warning Issho of his attacks before hand. And lastly, Issho himself stated Luffy had the power to back up his claims of contending with Admirals and Yonko.(This quote is highly debated, but since we are discussing our difference of opinions, this is how I choose to read this quote) (Zoro was not given any such praise

I just am not seeing how they have been historically equal.

-While Zoro was struggling with Daz Bones and wining, Luffy was struggling with Crocodile and winning.

- While Zoro fought/defeated Ryumma, Luffy fought/defeated Moriah[+100 shadows] (The most impressive tanking scene in this primetime skip has to be Zoro tanking Kuma afterwards tho, so that has to go to Zoro)

Can you provide examples of how they are historically equal? Perhaps I am missing something.

This, like you said can all be chalked up to Zoro having less panels(like we agree upon) BUT that doesnt mean we can say Luffy = Zoro. We just dont have the panel proof to back up those claims.

I like you believe Zoro have CoC and like you I refer to FI and Luffy asking Zoro and Sanji if they sensed a wild animal around and both agreed. In this we have to refer to Oda as it pertains to specialty

Luffy specializes in Conquerors Haki
Sanji in Observation Haki
Zoro in Armament Haki

But that was after the time skip. Neither Zoro or Sanji have shown a mastery of any haki over Luffy at this point, but that doesnt mean they dont have a specialty with that haki

nor does it mean they can use the other types of haki, they just dont specialize in it.

In these coming chapters in Wano I have no doubt haki utilization will be a key factor in many of these fight sequences.

This next chapter can set up a 6 way battle:

Hawkins Holden Speed
vs
Luffy Law and Zoro

I am hoping haki it further utilized by all characters.

Like I said before, haki is so hard to assess, but i mainly blame Oda for this

Once again Hello, lol
1st. Thank you for such a civil and well organized rebuttal. very rare and much appreciated.

2nd We are not going to agree on Zoros quality..lol but I can provide a few instances where he demonstrated Luffy or Captain like performance levels that showed him to be equal to his captain or at least suggested it.

A. He beat Rumma, Wanos greatest/ most celebrated samurai warrior who was an amplified zombie
B. Zoro absorbed Luffys battle pain and was commended for his captain like performance.
C. He overpowered a logia level DF with his will and will alone.
D. He performed many feats that made G-5 question why he wasn't the Captain. ie....rock slash
E. I forgot this but he CUT A TRAIN IN HALF
F. He ate an alleged halfass blow from one of the most destructive Admirals we have seen thus far. & then returned the slash which power was complimented by the same admiral.
G. Cut an inter building with a 6inch knife which was complimented by every samurai in sight.

I could go on but no need.

Luffy was defeated by the majority of the people he fought at least once...only to return with a trick up his sleeve. Water Luffy, and Nightmare Luffy.

Just plain old Zoro and his three blades.

Last but not least

HE USES A SWORD IN HIS TEETH....Totally equally to all Gears below 4 on pure badassery.

He also runs the crew and is absolutely respected by Luffy in battle strength.

He is also the only SH crew member who everyone is waiting to see his powerups from post timeskip. Thats all but a few readers im sure. lol

3rd. I dont think Hawkins Speed and Holden is a epic match up. I think these guys are just headliners and thus not calamities and thus not the real match ups for the Future Pirate Kind nor his FirstMate.

 

[hokageji]

A > B, B > C, so A > C is a dumb logic, especially in a manga where power isn't everything (otherwise Luffy would have lost so many times). Zoro could possibly stand a better chance against Cracker simply because of his swords. Also, what's weird is that Luffy could have used his speed to hit Cracker's real body but didn't for some reason.

Agree with the logic, but the point is Zoro has to show superiority in haki... which he hasnt done so far.... He could've been effective, but it would have to be through haki that is stronger than Luffys. As far as Luffy's speed, he did use it but Cracker kept ressurrecting them right, or maybe i am wrong...
Zoro can beat Cracker, but his Haki would've to be stronger than Luffys to be able to even beat Cracker... specially since punch should be more effective in breaking something than a blade.

 

[SupremeMod]

A > B, B > C, so A > C is a dumb logic, especially in a manga where power isn't everything (otherwise Luffy would have lost so many times). Zoro could possibly stand a better chance against Cracker simply because of his swords. Also, what's weird is that Luffy could have used his speed to hit Cracker's real body but didn't for some reason.

If Luffy had such a hard time breaking the Cracker soldiers, I don't see how Zoro would have fared any differently, swords or not.

No shame in losing to Cracker, tbh. He beat Urouge and nearly beat Luffy.

 

[nik87]

I think the fight with Cracker is not about Haki, at least it was not in case with Luffy. Its not that Luffy's haki was not strong enough, its that he lacked power in G2 and G3 forms. He had no trouble breaking the biscuits in G4 form.
Again, people forget that Zoro is able to cut steel. Hard biscuits may be hard but steel is harder. I dont remember Luffy punching through steel ever. Also when you punch a surface you either break it, dent it or do nothing to it, it affects a larger area so its harder to damage it. Cutting puts more force on the smaller area and puts the surface under greater stress and is more likely to break(get cut).
From what i remember Cracker didnt use hardening CoA on his biscuit forms so i dont think the hardness of biscuits was amplified.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Here's the thing, if Buggy was a serious threat and was at the level of Cracker and it was Zoro fighting him.... We would be running into the same problem.

Zoro could slice all day and run into the same problem Luffy did with Cracker.

Matchups matter

In the end, another method would be needed to defeat him. Luffy would be a better match up in this instance.

This (Cracker/Zoro matchup) does not mean Zoro>Luffy, it just means it would take greater effort for one than the other.

 

[M3J]

Agree with the logic, but the point is Zoro has to show superiority in haki... which he hasnt done so far.... He could've been effective, but it would have to be through haki that is stronger than Luffys. As far as Luffy's speed, he did use it but Cracker kept ressurrecting them right, or maybe i am wrong...
Zoro can beat Cracker, but his Haki would've to be stronger than Luffys to be able to even beat Cracker... specially since punch should be more effective in breaking something than a blade.

It's not just about haki though, but how they fight. If Zoro can slice through biscuits, then he has an advantage over Luffy, whose Gear 4 form would tire him out completely if he doesn't finish the fight in time.

If Luffy had such a hard time breaking the Cracker soldiers, I don't see how Zoro would have fared any differently, swords or not.

No shame in losing to Cracker, tbh. He beat Urouge and nearly beat Luffy.

Try slicing a block of cheese with your finger or punching it. THen try slicing it with a knife or sword. What got the job done better and cleaner? that's the difference between using a cutting weapon and using blunt force. you're better off comparing Sanji and Luffy as they employ blunt strikes.

 

[SupremeMod]

Try slicing a block of cheese with your finger or punching it. THen try slicing it with a knife or sword. What got the job done better and cleaner? that's the difference between using a cutting weapon and using blunt force. you're better off comparing Sanji and Luffy as they employ blunt strikes.

Trying to use real life to justify something in a manga is hardly logical. Luffy has been shown to be stronger than Zoro, period. If Luffy had a hard time breaking the Cracker clones, Zoro would have had a harder time cutting them with his swords. The only way your argument works is if you think Zoro is stronger than Luffy.

 

[M3J]

Has Luffy really? There hasn't been any conclusive evidence to that, especially when you have Zoro slicing through ships and buildings with a clean cut even with a knife.

 

[SupremeMod]

If what you're saying is right, then Zoro would have been able to cut through DD's strings("because try slicing a string with your finger or punching it. then try slicing it with a knife or sword"), but as we all saw, he didn't.
Luffy was able to break DD's strings(by punching them OMG), but Zoro wasn't able to cut through them. Same principle applies.

 

[nik87]

If what you're saying is right, then Zoro would have been able to cut through DD's strings("because try slicing a string with your finger or punching it. then try slicing it with a knife or sword"), but as we all saw, he didn't.
Luffy was able to break DD's strings(by punching them OMG), but Zoro wasn't able to cut through them. Same principle applies.

But thats such an obvious plot armor that its sad that it needs to be pointed out so often. By that logic Luffy right there and then is stronger than Fujitora since he didnt cut strings either... Luffy broke Doffy's strings by simply inflating from a normal form into G4 form, no punch was needed. The birdcage is simply plot armor, dont use it as a gauge of someone's strength.

 

[SupremeMod]

But thats such an obvious plot armor that its sad that it needs to be pointed out so often. By that logic Luffy right there and then is stronger than Fujitora since he didnt cut strings either... Luffy broke Doffy's strings by simply inflating from a normal form into G4 form, no punch was needed. The birdcage is simply plot armor, dont use it as a gauge of someone's strength.

Don't blame me for legitimate evidence in the manga. You can rationalize it however you want, but it exists.

 

[LaGOAT]

Don't blame me for legitimate evidence in the manga. You can rationalize it however you want, but it exists.

Luffy can’t destroy birdcage by ur logic too. Beating DD doesn’t mean he can break his bird cage.
Anyways luffy>zoro but only a slightly luffy isn’t on another tier over zoro let’s get that straight

 

[Copy Panda]

Yes he is lmao, what feats does Zoro have to put him on the same level as Luffy?

 

[M3J]

If what you're saying is right, then Zoro would have been able to cut through DD's strings("because try slicing a string with your finger or punching it. then try slicing it with a knife or sword"), but as we all saw, he didn't.
Luffy was able to break DD's strings(by punching them OMG), but Zoro wasn't able to cut through them. Same principle applies.

Didn't Luffy need Gear 4 to break or break out of Doflamingo's strings? And if Luffy could break Doflamingo's strings just by punching them, then why didn't he try to do that instead of focusing solely on fighting Doflamingo? he could have protected more lives that way instead of trying to take down Doflamingo to stop Bird Cage. Other than that though, there's no reason to believe Zoro is inferior to Luffy.

 

[Pirate Queen]

there's no reason to believe Zoro is inferior to Luffy.

True, but there's also no reason to believe Zoro is either equal or superior to Luffy.

Feat wise Luffy>Zoro, we can't dispute that... Even more so now that Luffy got a massive Observation Haki Upgrade.

Zoro's feats in New World is No Diff Pica and blocking a lazy attack by an Admiral. That's it.

Lack of Zoro panels is to blame. but it is what it is.

To say Zoro is even close to Luffy, you have to assume a whole lot.

U have to assume Zoro speed = Luffy speed (Luffy crossed Dressrosa instantly)
U have to assume Zoro Attack power = Luffy's ( Luffy's King Kong Gun upturned all of Dressrosa)
U have to assume Zoro's Endurance = Luffy's ( Luffy has fought Yonko Commanders for hours on end while taking the worst beating we've seen in this manga)

Zoro has no feats even close to Luffy post time skip...

 

[M3J]

Thing is, we never saw Zoro go all out. No indication whatsoever that Zoro is definitely inferior to Luffy. All you have is feat, and you're basically comparing Luffy's many shown feats to Zoro barely getting any good opponent or feat to show off, except for few like cutting a building in half with a small knife or cutting through ships and stones.