One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Thing is, we never saw Zoro go all out. No indication whatsoever that Zoro is definitely inferior to Luffy. All you have is feat, and you're basically comparing Luffy's many shown feats to Zoro barely getting any good opponent or feat to show off, except for few like cutting a building in half with a small knife or cutting through ships and stones.

Okay... That's what I'm saying. It's a lack of Zoro panels.

So there no proof that Zoro is equal or superior to Luffy.

To state otherwise is to assume

 

[SupremeMod]

Luffy can’t destroy birdcage by ur logic too. Beating DD doesn’t mean he can break his bird cage.
Anyways luffy>zoro but only a slightly luffy isn’t on another tier over zoro let’s get that straight

Luffy tore out of and broke DD's strings. The birdcage was made out of DD's strings.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 2, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 2, 2018 ---

Didn't Luffy need Gear 4 to break or break out of Doflamingo's strings? And if Luffy could break Doflamingo's strings just by punching them, then why didn't he try to do that instead of focusing solely on fighting Doflamingo? he could have protected more lives that way instead of trying to take down Doflamingo to stop Bird Cage. Other than that though, there's no reason to believe Zoro is inferior to Luffy.

Because he would still have to end up fighting DD anyways. Might as well kill two birds(cage lol get it?) with one stone.

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

I think Luffy may just have already cracked the top ten strongest.

 

[nik87]

I think Luffy may just have already cracked the top ten strongest.

If we only count the big shots we know for sure, that's 11 ppl already who are stronger than Luffy. Its more likely that he may have cracked top 20, imo.
Can easily add 6 ppl more on top of those 11 since their ranking is even higher but holding back since their strength isnt shown yet.

 

[LaGOAT]

Luffy tore out of and broke DD's strings. The birdcage was made out of DD's strings.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 2, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 2, 2018 ---

Because he would still have to end up fighting DD anyways. Might as well kill two birds(cage lol get it?) with one stone.

Zoro and fujitora didn’t go all out they held BC long enough for luffy to beat DD

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 2, 2018 ---

I think Luffy may just have already cracked the top ten strongest.

Sorry luffy hasn’t cracking top 20 yet

 

[Pirate Queen]

Let's get a list going then of characters likely stronger than Luffy.

I'll start:
Shanks
Kaido
Big Mom
BlackBeard
Akainu
Aokiji
Kizaru
Fujitora
Green Bull (Name Unknown)
Mihawk
Weebil? (Prime Whitebeard in strength? TBD)
5 Gorosei? (If they are fighters)
Garp
Kong(TBD)
Rayleigh
Right Hands of Yonko = or > Luffy

That's over 20 already

 

[nik87]

@Lexusflame Weevil might be debatable but you are probably right. Add to that list Sengoku, Dragon, Sabo most likely as well and Imu-sama. Thats plenty of ppl already and assuming that none of the Revolutionary commanders and Yonko commanders are stronger than Luffy but someone still might make the list, as in Beckman, Shiliew, Kaido's King position. You also could add Lox/Rocks, maybe Shiki and other crew of Gol D Roger and suddenly its a question if Luffy cracked even top 30...

 

[LaGOAT]

Exactly and thats people alive now if we talking dead ppl luffy isn’t hardly top 30

 

[M3J]

Okay... That's what I'm saying. It's a lack of Zoro panels.

So there no proof that Zoro is equal or superior to Luffy.

To state otherwise is to assume

But to state that Zoro isn't is also an assumption. It's all assumptions here.

Luffy tore out of and broke DD's strings. The birdcage was made out of DD's strings.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 2, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 2, 2018 ---

Because he would still have to end up fighting DD anyways. Might as well kill two birds(cage lol get it?) with one stone.

When Doflamingo held him after Luffy got his haki back? Luffy used Gear 4 to break out, otherwise he'd have been dead like Sanji.

nah, that's still dumb. He was fighting Doflamingo as hard as he could to save people from Bird Cage and was on a time limit. If he broke the Bird Cage and got people out of harm's way, then he'd have an easier time fighting as he wouldn't need to worry.

I think Luffy may just have already cracked the top ten strongest.

Think again.

@Lexusflame Weevil might be debatable but you are probably right. Add to that list Sengoku, Dragon, Sabo most likely as well and Imu-sama. Thats plenty of ppl already and assuming that none of the Revolutionary commanders and Yonko commanders are stronger than Luffy but someone still might make the list, as in Beckman, Shiliew, Kaido's King position. You also could add Lox/Rocks, maybe Shiki and other crew of Gol D Roger and suddenly its a question if Luffy cracked even top 30...

Given the hype Weevil got, he likely could beat Luffy.

 

[Copy Panda]

Wait are you seriously arguing Zoro is equal to, if not, has the edge (kek) over Luffy?

So lack of panel time can put someone on the hypothetical same level as Luffy? So all the previous unshown Shichibukai > Luffy? Kuma > Luffy? Buggy > Luffy? What a vain argument. Are you seriously saying Oda made Luffy fight commander after commander which were technically losing fights (had help vs Cracker and Dogtooth was kind of stalling), only for Zoro to be hiden stronger than him??

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 3, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 3, 2018 ---

So Luffy's second is stronger than himself?? Just what are you basing this off mate? By saying, 'it's all assumptions!' you just open the floodgates for every unconfirmed idea to be equally valid

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 3, 2018 ---

But thats such an obvious plot armor that its sad that it needs to be pointed out so often. By that logic Luffy right there and then is stronger than Fujitora since he didnt cut strings either... Luffy broke Doffy's strings by simply inflating from a normal form into G4 form, no punch was needed. The birdcage is simply plot armor, dont use it as a gauge of someone's strength.

I think the clou was needing haki to do it, I'm guessing that those falling rocks weren't Haki imbued

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

If we only count the big shots we know for sure, that's 11 ppl already who are stronger than Luffy. Its more likely that he may have cracked top 20, imo.
Can easily add 6 ppl more on top of those 11 since their ranking is even higher but holding back since their strength isnt shown yet.

I'm curious who you're counting. Because
If you think about it from another perspective, he's about to fight the strongest known character. That's one hell of a leap for someone who hasn't cracked the top ten.

 

[nik87]

@ThatOtherGuy Yes Kaido might be the strongest but in the end might be surpassed by Blackbeard, Gorosei and Imu.

The people I consider stronger than Luffy are the 4 yonkos: Big Mom, Blackbeard, Shanks and Kaido. The highest ranked Marines' fighters: Kizaru, Fujitora, Green Bull, Akainu, Garp, Sengoku, ex-admiral Aokiji. Individuals like Mihawk, Rayleigh and most likely Weevil and Sabo.

People we haven't seen in action but most likely are top tier: Imu, 5 Gorosei, Kong, Dragon. The rumored Lox/Rocks and Shiki if he ever appears.
Right-hand men of the Yonko's could be above Luffy: Beckman, Shilliew, Kaido's right hand, Marco the Phoenix. Not sure where to list warden Magellan in this post-time-skip environment with enhanced haki usage.

Personal preference: Katakuri. I know many may not agree on this but this fight left a bad taste in my mouth. It wasn't a simple persistence like versus Don Krieg, this was pure resurrection and miracle after miracle imo. Katakuri had superior CoO and CoA, same CoC. Was faster than Luffy(Snakeman form is arguable), had enough power to wreck Luffy in G4 Boundman form(Luffy had enough power to wreck Katakuri as well) but plot armor was on Luffy's side. Imo, Katakuri is still stronger but we may as well not count him.

If we assume that Cp0 may have top fighter he could be above Luffy as well and if any more of Gol D Rogers crew appear thats easily 30 or more people above Luffy's level.

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

@ThatOtherGuy Yes Kaido might be the strongest but in the end might be surpassed by Blackbeard, Gorosei and Imu.

The people I consider stronger than Luffy are the 4 yonkos: Big Mom, Blackbeard, Shanks and Kaido. The highest ranked Marines' fighters: Kizaru, Fujitora, Green Bull, Akainu, Garp, Sengoku, ex-admiral Aokiji. Individuals like Mihawk, Rayleigh and most likely Weevil and Sabo.

People we haven't seen in action but most likely are top tier: Imu, 5 Gorosei, Kong, Dragon. The rumored Lox/Rocks and Shiki if he ever appears.
Right-hand men of the Yonko's could be above Luffy: Beckman, Shilliew, Kaido's right hand, Marco the Phoenix. Not sure where to list warden Magellan in this post-time-skip environment with enhanced haki usage.

Personal preference: Katakuri. I know many may not agree on this but this fight left a bad taste in my mouth. It wasn't a simple persistence like versus Don Krieg, this was pure resurrection and miracle after miracle imo. Katakuri had superior CoO and CoA, same CoC. Was faster than Luffy(Snakeman form is arguable), had enough power to wreck Luffy in G4 Boundman form(Luffy had enough power to wreck Katakuri as well) but plot armor was on Luffy's side. Imo, Katakuri is still stronger but we may as well not count him.

If we assume that Cp0 may have top fighter he could be above Luffy as well and if any more of Gol D Rogers crew appear thats easily 30 or more people above Luffy's level.

Luffy has always had an exceptional ability to take lots of punishment and get up. So the Katakuri case is just more of that. Granted one could say Luffy having that ability itself is plot armor, but that feels like one would be undermining the essence of the character.

That said, I wasn't thinking of the old generation at all (Garp, Raighley, Kong, Sengoku, etc...). Though I get your point. Too many factions and top tiers for Luffy to break the top ten right now.

 

[M3J]

Zoro's endurance is definitely up there with Luffy's, at least in Part I, if not better. Zoro took Luffy's damage and exhaustion onto his own and was still conscious and standing. Not to mention, Zoro's usually showed similar feats of strength, and more often than not doesn't have devil fruit advantage that Luffy does to take on the boss. Otherwise the main reason why people think Zoro is inferior is because he's not the captain.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Zoro's endurance is definitely up there with Luffy's, at least in Part I, if not better. Zoro took Luffy's damage and exhaustion onto his own and was still conscious and standing. Not to mention, Zoro's usually showed similar feats of strength, and more often than not doesn't have devil fruit advantage that Luffy does to take on the boss. Otherwise the main reason why people think Zoro is inferior is because he's not the captain.

I gotta say, to assume Zoro is equal to or stronger than Luffy opens up so much false equivalency...

We can't just assume they are equal because there is not even hints that they are close to equal.

There is no evidence to support that claim.

You can't use pretimeskip feats now because just post time skip alone Luffy has grown exponentially by facing incredibly tough opponents pushing him to that next level over and over. Zoro hasn't been tested in new world like that.

You can't possibly believe their equal or Zoro is stronger. It's borderline ridiculous, and I'm not saying that to insult you I promise. There is just nothing to support that claim.

Zoro vs Luffy endurance wise is out the window since the last Arc when Luffy took a brutal beating from a Yonko Commander for HOURS. Until Zoro shows an equal feat we can't even argue this. Argue plot armor but it happened. That is now a measurable feat.

On an adjacent topic, yes a majority only need the Captain> Any Crew member to reason that Luffy > Zoro, but are they wrong?

What Yonko has a second in command that is stronger than them?

What One Piece organization has any member thats > the main boss.

We have 1 exception and that's Buggy, purely for comedic effect.

There is no First Mate that is stronger than their captain. Period. The only reason this is a conversation is because Zoro is a badass and has a ridiculously HUGE fan base (of which I am a member, but I don't let it interfere with the logistics of this discussion)

Unless pre time skip feats are included(which are no longer relevant) you have nothing to say Zoro >= Luffy. And even Pretime skip you couldn't argue Zoro>Luffy successfully outside of endurance levels and that was the only thing Zoro even came close to being > Luffy over.

You just can't

 

[SupremeMod]

Zoro and fujitora didn’t go all out they held BC long enough for luffy to beat DD

As I've already said, you can rationalize it as much or however you want, but the fact remains Luffy was able to break DD's strings and Zoro didn't.

 

[nik87]

@Lexusflame Your points are valid. After time skip Zoro didnt show anything, thats the main problem here. We dont know if he is close to Luffy's level or not.

But we can assume that Oda wouldn't portray Zoro as badass as he does if he wouldnt be able to justify such characteristics. There are many issues here if we want to compare Luffy and Zoro like plot purposes and type of fights. Plot always sets up so that Luffy takes on the bosses, Oda never gave that chance to Zoro and probably never will, simply works like that but he may treat us with equal opponents for both Luffy and Zoro at some point maybe (5 Gorosei).

Zoro fights with swords so its unlikely that his fights will last as much as Luffy's do and Oda probably will never invest so much time for any other character as he did with Luffy. Unless Zoro fights someone who he cannot cut, yet, fights are most likely going to end pretty fast.

Pre-time-skip there is a lot that suggests that Zoro is equal to Luffy. Many times Zoro said that one day he will kill Luffy, comedic purposes of course but who knows what it may be hinting at. Their brawl in Whiskey Peak ended in a draw, they together destroyed Aqua Laguna wave in Water 7.

Huge plus for Zoro is that scene from Thriller Bark when he took on Luffy's pain and damage on top of his own. Note that Zoro's body is normal and not made of rubber which can handle the damage better so that actually puts Zoro's endurance way above Luffy's.

In new world, Oda focused too much on Luffy while all others were sitting on a bench. I agree, in NW we cannot compare the two but we should be patient until we get to see what's Zoro's limit now.

 

[Pirate Queen]

@Lexusflame Your points are valid. After time skip Zoro didnt show anything, thats the main problem here. We dont know if he is close to Luffy's level or not.

But we can assume that Oda wouldn't portray Zoro as badass as he does if he wouldnt be able to justify such characteristics. There are many issues here if we want to compare Luffy and Zoro like plot purposes and type of fights. Plot always sets up so that Luffy takes on the bosses, Oda never gave that chance to Zoro and probably never will, simply works like that but he may treat us with equal opponents for both Luffy and Zoro at some point maybe (5 Gorosei).

Zoro fights with swords so its unlikely that his fights will last as much as Luffy's do and Oda probably will never invest so much time for any other character as he did with Luffy. Unless Zoro fights someone who he cannot cut, yet, fights are most likely going to end pretty fast.

Pre-time-skip there is a lot that suggests that Zoro is equal to Luffy. Many times Zoro said that one day he will kill Luffy, comedic purposes of course but who knows what it may be hinting at. Their brawl in Whiskey Peak ended in a draw, they together destroyed Aqua Laguna wave in Water 7.

Huge plus for Zoro is that scene from Thriller Bark when he took on Luffy's pain and damage on top of his own. Note that Zoro's body is normal and not made of rubber which can handle the damage better so that actually puts Zoro's endurance way above Luffy's.

In new world, Oda focused too much on Luffy while all others were sitting on a bench. I agree, in NW we cannot compare the two but we should be patient until we get to see what's Zoro's limit now.

Personally I would not be opposed or care if Zoro was stronger than Luffy.

But I need more proof, that's all I'm saying. We all need more proof.

Everyone brings up Thriller Bark to forever equate Zoro being stronger than Luffy(not you, but others on this forum) but that can easily be rationalized because people seem to forget what Luffy went through leading up to the time skip.

Zoro took Luffy's damage in Thriller Bark. It was stunning, is still remembered how shocking it was to all of us when it happened. It hyped him up... But no one at that point said Luffy was weaker than Zoro because it happened. Higher endurance? sure?

Then what happened? Luffy suffered throughout the tortures of Impel Down,drowned in poison that should have killed him THEN traveled to Marineford where he took damage from the likes of Mihawk, Smoker, Akainu, Kizaru, Sengoku, other big names and countless soldiers all while taking in false energy that didnt heal ANY of the damage he took.

That two situations can't even be compared. And that was pre timeskip...

I'm just not understating where anyone can read up to the latest chapter and say... Zoro is clearly stronger or equal to Luffy.

How? Based off what? How badass he is?

We need more than that.

 

[Holt]

Saying zoro = or > Luffy especially post TS is completely baseless. There aren't any feats to even remotely back this up. Zoro simply doesn't have sufficient panels. But even if, zoro can't really be stronger than Luffy though. At most, he'd be close. I mean, that doesn't even sound right. Imagine Luffy off struggling and fighting the boss when Zoro can defeat said boss easier? If only for the mere fact that Luffy is the captain and MC, Oda won't make zoro stronger.

About Luffy being top 20, ranking isn't so clear cut in OP imo. But we have the yonko and admirals to consider already. Former admirals, some shichibukia (Mihawk for example) etc. But anyway, clearly Luffy is already strong enough to beat or give non-yonko/admiral level a run for their money. He's already top yonko commander level as it stands

 

[Pirate Queen]

Saying zoro = or > Luffy especially post TS is completely baseless. There aren't any feats to even remotely back this up. Zoro simply doesn't have sufficient panels. But even if, zoro can't really be stronger than Luffy though. At most, he'd be close. I mean, that doesn't even sound right. Imagine Luffy off struggling and fighting the boss when Zoro can defeat said boss easier? If only for the mere fact that Luffy is the captain and MC, Oda won't make zoro stronger.

About Luffy being top 20, ranking isn't so clear cut in OP imo. But we have the yonko and admirals to consider already. Former admirals, some shichibukia (Mihawk for example) etc. But anyway, clearly Luffy is already strong enough to beat or give non-yonko/admiral level a run for their money. He's already top yonko commander level as it stands

Yeah, without much thought I put together a list of over 20 people Luffy debatable cant beat yet. It was easy. I doubt he is even top 30 yet...

edit: barely top 30