One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[M3J]

Kizaru is definitely not having future observation Haki. He might have superior armament but until we get evidence for that, it can't stand. Same thing regarding CoC, Kizaru might not have that as well.

If we go by what we've seen from Kizaru at Marineford, then he'll get flopped (which is BS since he's an Admiral and pre time skip battles don't matter much in relation to power levels).

Why would he need future observation haki if he can move at speed of light and is too fast for Katakuri even with insight into the future? and you mean Color of Conqueror? I've yet to see non-pirates have that ability.

Katakuri wouldn't be able to hurt Kizaru though, unless he's fast enough with his Color of Armament to deal damage.

So, let me get this straight... Because Kizaru doesn't have future sight (which he might be able to negate because he moves at the speed of light) and because he hasn't shown impressive aramament haki.... He has a chance against Katakuri? Katakuri that Luffy walked away with a W from? The Yonko First Commander?

No offense butI... I don't even know where to begin with this lol

It looks like you agree with him but are confused by his argument. Did you misunderstand or mean to quote me?

 

[Takuan]

If Kizaru was able to move at light speed he would be godlike and pretty much undefeatable. But that's not the case from what we've seen. Otherwise Marco would have never been able to tag him. If Marco was able to, why wouldn't Katakuri?

 

[M3J]

Well, I'm not sure why Kizaru didn't keep using his speed to gain an edge over Marco, but I'm going by the memory that he did move that fast on at least one occasion, if not twice or thrive.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Why would he need future observation haki if he can move at speed of light and is too fast for Katakuri even with insight into the future? and you mean Color of Conqueror? I've yet to see non-pirates have that ability.

Katakuri wouldn't be able to hurt Kizaru though, unless he's fast enough with his Color of Armament to deal damage.


It looks like you agree with him but are confused by his argument. Did you misunderstand or mean to quote me?

I disagree 100% that Katakuri could beat Admiral Kizaru.

 

[jaymizzo]

Well, I'm not sure why Kizaru didn't keep using his speed to gain an edge over Marco, but I'm going by the memory that he did move that fast on at least one occasion, if not twice or thrive.

That's because his speed is only relevant in a straight line. He has not shown such speed that it's unfathomable. We've seen characters move faster.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Y

I disagree 100% that Katakuri could beat Admiral Kizaru.

Of course most people would. It's similar to thinking Marco would beat Kizaru.
What is clear is they'll surely cause significant damage to him (even if they won't win the duel).
That's how dangerous a Yonko commander and right hand man would be to an Admiral. Oda's portrayed this many times.
1st with Marco, then with Ben Beckmann... I see no reason why Katakuri won't be in that tier.

Get what I'm saying?..

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 9, 2019, Original Post Date: Jan 9, 2019 ---

That's because his speed is only relevant in a straight line. He has not shown such speed that it's unfathomable. We've seen characters move faster.

You put it in a better way than I was able to.
I mean, at one point Katakuri was going toe to toe with snake man. A gear form revered for its speed.
Let's remember that Bounce man was already ridiculously fast so speed won't count much for Kizaru.
If Old man Raleigh was keeping up with him with one of the best non future observation Haki, I can't begin to imagine how well a man with a superior future CoO would do against him.

 

[M3J]

Interestingly, if a Yonkou commander was able to take on Kizaru, why not have Katakuri kill or even kidnap him? That'd be one less enemy for Big Mom or even other emperors to deal with. How many pirates or enemies have really challenged the Marines, much less the admirals? Perhaps Kizaru would lose to Katakuri, but I 100% don't believe that, one reason being that if it was that easy to take on the admirals then any of the Emperor would have chosen to wage a war and get the Marines out of their way.

 

[jaymizzo]

Interestingly, if a Yonkou commander was able to take on Kizaru, why not have Katakuri kill or even kidnap him? That'd be one less enemy for Big Mom or even other emperors to deal with. How many pirates or enemies have really challenged the Marines, much less the admirals? Perhaps Kizaru would lose to Katakuri, but I 100% don't believe that, one reason being that if it was that easy to take on the admirals then any of the Emperor would have chosen to wage a war and get the Marines out of their way.

Yeah it's really not that simple, the power structure in OP has been explained quite well. You don't just up and go wage war on someone else because you have superior forces, both sides are working to eliminate each other discretely. There needs to be a balance or there will be chaos. Dispatching admirals to go after Yonkou crews would be the most impractical thing they can ever choose to do, same as a Yonkou sending their top commanders to fight the Marines. You're leaving yourself wide open to an attack from even fodder pirates.

WB alone was not phased by the presence of 3 Admirals and pretty much wrecked anyone who came to his way. The top commanders themselves were holding their own against the Admirals as well.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 9, 2019, Original Post Date: Jan 9, 2019 ---

So, let me get this straight... Because Kizaru doesn't have future sight (which he might be able to negate because he moves at the speed of light) and because he hasn't shown impressive aramament haki.... Katakuri can defeat Kizaru? Katakuri that Luffy walked away with a W from? The Yonko First Commander?

No offense butI... I don't even know where to begin with this lol

Yeah sure, you can begin by providing any panel that shows Kizaru with advanced CoA or CoO, or even a display of CoC.

Also, people need to start understanding something... Kizaru is fast only in a straight line, he has not shown light speed reflexes or reaction time in any of his appearances or skirmishes. Until the manga shows us something different, this light speed talk really is irrelevant.

Based on feats, Katakuri is truly an exception so far.

 

[nik87]

I think that top commanders are able to put up a fight against Admirals but only short term. The longer it goes the worse it looks for commanders because Admirals are simply bigger powerhouses. Besides, Akainu aside, we still haven't seen any other Admiral go all out.
If we assume that Rayleigh is the best among all commanders then we saw that it's only a draw.
Katakuri could be interesting with his CoO but I dont think it's something that would secure a win over any Admiral.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Yeah it's really not that simple, the power structure in OP has been explained quite well. You don't just up and go wage war on someone else because you have superior forces, both sides are working to eliminate each other discretely. There needs to be a balance or there will be chaos. Dispatching admirals to go after Yonkou crews would be the most impractical thing they can ever choose to do, same as a Yonkou sending their top commanders to fight the Marines. You're leaving yourself wide open to an attack from even fodder pirates.

WB alone was not phased by the presence of 3 Admirals and pretty much wrecked anyone who came to his way. The top commanders themselves were holding their own against the Admirals as well.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 9, 2019, Original Post Date: Jan 9, 2019 ---

Yeah sure, you can begin by providing any panel that shows Kizaru with advanced CoA or CoO, or even a display of CoC.

Also, people need to start understanding something... Kizaru is fast only in a straight line, he has not shown light speed reflexes or reaction time in any of his appearances or skirmishes. Until the manga shows us something different, this light speed talk really is irrelevant.

Based on feats, Katakuri is truly an exception so far.

Admirals don't need Avanced Haki to defeat Yonko Commanders. It's very simple. I never said they did need it.

Katakuri was wildly impressive because Luffy was far weaker than him when the fight began. Replace Kizaru (or any of the Admirals) with Luffy and Katakuri would have been the one struggling.


Geez this forum is ridiculous some times.

 

[jaymizzo]

Admirals don't need Avanced Haki to defeat Yonko Commanders. It's very simple. I never said they did need it.

Katakuri was wildly impressive because Luffy was far weaker than him when the fight began. Replace Kizaru (or any of the Admirals) with Luffy and Katakuri would have been the one struggling.


Geez this forum is ridiculous some times.

It's very easy to come out and just make claims with nothing to back what you're saying.

Where do you get this notion that Admirals don't need Advanced Haki? I ask you to show advanced versions of Haki because Luffy required advanced CoO and speed to barely beat Katakuri. Kizaru has shown neither.

The fact that you cannot hit Katakuri because of his CoO is something you need to tackle.

Il wait for you to provide any form of Haki feat or ridiculous speed feat from Kizaru.

 

[Hrathgrath]

What are the chances that akainu has awakened his fruit?... is what I was going to ask then I remembered Punk Hazzard. So I’m positive both Akainu and Aokiji both have awakened their devil fruits... it’s the only way punk hazard makes sense. Otherwise it doesn’t make sense to me why they would still be effected by their fight, but being transformed by the awakened fruit makes it totally clear!

 

[Pirate Queen]

It's very easy to come out and just make claims with nothing to back what you're saying.

Where do you get this notion that Admirals don't need Advanced Haki? I ask you to show advanced versions of Haki because Luffy required advanced CoO and speed to barely beat Katakuri. Kizaru has shown neither.

The fact that you cannot hit Katakuri because of his CoO is something you need to tackle.

Il wait for you to provide any form of Haki feat or ridiculous speed feat from Kizaru.

It's very easy to come out and just make claims with nothing to back what you're saying.

Where do you get this notion that Admirals don't need Advanced Haki? I ask you to show advanced versions of Haki because Luffy required advanced CoO and speed to barely beat Katakuri. Kizaru has shown neither.

The fact that you cannot hit Katakuri because of his CoO is something you need to tackle.

Il wait for you to provide any form of Haki feat or ridiculous speed feat from Kizaru.

So because Luffy needed advanced CoA to beat Katakuri anyone who faces him needs Advanced CoA?

I dont have to prove shit. The claim was "Katakuri could beat Kizaru because of his feats"

The burden of proof falls on the person who makes such claims

My claim was that Admirals dont need avanced haki to defeat Yonko Commanders. My proof is the Marineford War.

 

[nik87]

@Lexusflame Katakuri will surely be trickier because of future sight but Admirals are a significantly stronger tier with huge aoe abilities which kinda neutralize future sight and they are good enough in CoO to avoid attacks, like what Aokiji pulled when he was stabbed by WB's spear.
Katakuri's future sight is surely an advantage over other commanders but its not to defeat Admirals.

 

[jaymizzo]

So because Luffy needed advanced CoA to beat Katakuri anyone who faces him needs Advanced CoA?

I dont have to prove shit. The claim was "Katakuri could beat Kizaru because of his feats"

The burden of proof falls on the person who makes such claims

My claim was that Admirals dont need avanced haki to defeat Yonko Commanders. My proof is the Marineford War.

That is not proof since that concept didn't exactly exist back then. And yes, yes you do. Simply disagreeing is not a discussion.

What feats does Kizaru have that drove you to that conclusion? Katakuri had gone years without anyone injuring him because no one understood why he was so OP. You would need to have superior speed or superior CoO to beat him.... It's not like the manga doesn't point to that.

I want you to list Kizaru feats in comparison to Katakuri, I have the manga to back up things Katakuri has done and why most consider him an exception. Should be easy enough for you to prove that Kizaru is faster (because light speed amirite?) etc.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Interestingly, if a Yonkou commander was able to take on Kizaru, why not have Katakuri kill or even kidnap him? That'd be one less enemy for Big Mom or even other emperors to deal with. How many pirates or enemies have really challenged the Marines, much less the admirals? Perhaps Kizaru would lose to Katakuri, but I 100% don't believe that, one reason being that if it was that easy to take on the admirals then any of the Emperor would have chosen to wage a war and get the Marines out of their way.

Don't forget "Yonko commander and right hand man of said Yonko". They are always the second strongest in any given Yonko crew. Not just any Yonko commander but a RHM.

I don't see why it wouldn't be plausible for any RHM to defeat an Admiral (with struggle of course).

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 9, 2019, Original Post Date: Jan 9, 2019 ---

What are the chances that akainu has awakened his fruit?... is what I was going to ask then I remembered Punk Hazzard. So I’m positive both Akainu and Aokiji both have awakened their devil fruits... it’s the only way punk hazard makes sense. Otherwise it doesn’t make sense to me why they would still be effected by their fight, but being transformed by the awakened fruit makes it totally clear!

Obviously! You've figured it out at last.

 

[Pirate Queen]

That is not proof since that concept didn't exactly exist back then. And yes, yes you do. Simply disagreeing is not a discussion.

What feats does Kizaru have that drove you to that conclusion? Katakuri had gone years without anyone injuring him because no one understood why he was so OP. You would need to have superior speed or superior CoO to beat him.... It's not like the manga doesn't point to that.

I want you to list Kizaru feats in comparison to Katakuri, I have the manga to back up things Katakuri has done and why most consider him an exception. Should be easy enough for you to prove that Kizaru is faster (because light speed amirite?) etc.

Kayakuri got embarrassed by Luffy, who isn't close to Admiral/Yonko level.

You can spin it anyway you like lol

End of discussion

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 9, 2019, Original Post Date: Jan 9, 2019 ---

@Lexusflame Katakuri will surely be trickier because of future sight but Admirals are a significantly stronger tier with huge aoe abilities which kinda neutralize future sight and they are good enough in CoO to avoid attacks, like what Aokiji pulled when he was stabbed by WB's spear.
Katakuri's future sight is surely an advantage over other commanders but its not to defeat Admirals.

You are correct. This isn't neurosurgery to figure out.

People go insane on these breaks tho. Start spouting straight nonsense.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 9, 2019 ---

Don't forget "Yonko commander and right hand man of said Yonko". They are always the second strongest in any given Yonko crew. Not just any Yonko commander but a RHM.

I don't see why it wouldn't be plausible for any RHM to defeat an Admiral (with struggle of course).

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 9, 2019, Original Post Date: Jan 9, 2019 ---

Obviously! You've figured it out at last.

Marco was a RHM and wasn't very effective against Admirals. And Marco was placed on the same level of the Yonko by the Gorosei who said he was one of the few who could defeat Blackbeard.

The difference between YC1 and a Yonko is vast... For proof, just reread Luffy getting destroyed by Kaido

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

I think that top commanders are able to put up a fight against Admirals but only short term. The longer it goes the worse it looks for commanders because Admirals are simply bigger powerhouses. Besides, Akainu aside, we still haven't seen any other Admiral go all out.
If we assume that Rayleigh is the best among all commanders then we saw that it's only a draw.
Katakuri could be interesting with his CoO but I dont think it's something that would secure a win over any Admiral.

Even assuming Rayleigh was the most powerful YC+RHM, the clash with "Kizaru kun" tells us that he was nowhere near Rayleigh's level during Rayleigh's prime (just like most pirates to WB).

It's a shame that an older and weaker Rayleigh is forcing a draw with Kizaru who should be at his prime.

This enforces my notion that Yonko Right Hand Men are powerful enough to either struggle with Admirals or defeat them in a duel.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

Rayleigh wasnt a Yonkoucommander. He was the right Hand to the friggin Pirate King. He should be closer to the strength of Yonkou then to YC.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Even assuming Rayleigh was the most powerful YC+RHM, the clash with "Kizaru kun" tells us that he was nowhere near Rayleigh's level during Rayleigh's prime (just like most pirates to WB).

It's a shame that an older and weaker Rayleigh is forcing a draw with Kizaru who should be at his prime.

This enforces my notion that Yonko Right Hand Men are powerful enough to either struggle with Admirals or defeat them in a duel.

Rayliegh was so powerful that Garp told his underlings not to report his resurfacing to the WG because the Navy wouldn't be able to fight 2 LEGENDS (Rayliegh/Whitebears)

Rayliegh is a legend.