One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[kalmier]

^ You mean making him the final villain? The end boss Luffy is going to face?

 

[M3J]

Not even the final villain, but the strongest character. Oda, according to OP Wiki and a databook that @goldb mentioned, said that Akainu's so powerful that if he wanted to, he could get to One Piece within a year or two. it's an open statement though and could mean anything, not necessarily that Akainu can mow down his opponents.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Not even the final villain, but the strongest character. Oda, according to OP Wiki and a databook that @goldb mentioned, said that Akainu's so powerful that if he wanted to, he could get to One Piece within a year or two. it's an open statement though and could mean anything, not necessarily that Akainu can mow down his opponents.

Akainu with plot protection would probably be strong enough to divide by 0

 

[nik87]

Not even the final villain, but the strongest character. Oda, according to OP Wiki and a databook that @goldb mentioned, said that Akainu's so powerful that if he wanted to, he could get to One Piece within a year or two. it's an open statement though and could mean anything, not necessarily that Akainu can mow down his opponents.

I am not sure if Oda wanted to point out Akainu's strength specifically or he just took him as an example for a strong character and how One Piece would end fast with a strong protagonist. We know that Kaido is the best in 1vs1 and with him as the protagonist it would end even sooner than with Akainu. I think the audience misunderstood that comment from Oda and expects too much from Akainu.

“Luffy worries me most since he defeats main villains right away unless I make him stranded before he arrives at the enemy. So, when you create a protagonist in manga, it is not a good idea to make him too strong,”

“For example, if Akainu became the protagonist, he is so strong that ONE PIECE would come to an end within a year.”

Akainu is strong, no doubt but Kaido is stronger. Maybe Oda just used him as an example or he calculated in their personalities as well and then it could be seen faster with Akainu since he is ruthless in his pursuit while Kaido takes a sake break(or should I say a break to get sober every once in a while?).

 

[M3J]

I am not sure if Oda wanted to point out Akainu's strength specifically or he just took him as an example for a strong character and how One Piece would end fast with a strong protagonist. We know that Kaido is the best in 1vs1 and with him as the protagonist it would end even sooner than with Akainu. I think the audience misunderstood that comment from Oda and expects too much from Akainu.

“Luffy worries me most since he defeats main villains right away unless I make him stranded before he arrives at the enemy. So, when you create a protagonist in manga, it is not a good idea to make him too strong,”

“For example, if Akainu became the protagonist, he is so strong that ONE PIECE would come to an end within a year.”

Akainu is strong, no doubt but Kaido is stronger. Maybe Oda just used him as an example or he calculated in their personalities as well and then it could be seen faster with Akainu since he is ruthless in his pursuit while Kaido takes a sake break(or should I say a break to get sober every once in a while?).

we don't know just how strong he is, especially when he's never tried to or when he's never beaten any of the Emperors. I highly doubt he's strong enough that he and his crew can take on Big Mom and others without significant losses. It's why I'm hoping Oda clears up on what he meant about @Akainu in the manga. He's certainly established Akainu as a power to be reckoned with, but not as the strongest.

Or Oda could have also meant that Akainu can get to One Piece because while he won't seek fights, he's strong enough to hold his own and escape alive. Unless he meant Akainu's strong enough that he and his fleet can take out the Emperors and other pirates.

How do you know Kaidou is stronger though?

 

[nik87]

@M3J because he is strongest creature in the world and the one who should be bet on in 1vs1? :Thinking:
He would probably club Akainu to death in 2-3 hits? j/k

 

[M3J]

That's just hype though, and he's lost enough times for one reason or another.

 

[Hrathgrath]

Very well put together comment. I can see how you would think Katakuri vs an Admiral would make sense.

Let's agree to disagree

The thing you posted earlier about “can you prove it’s not” is called proving a negative, which is next to impossible. And in a written world, it IS impossible, because the author can change anything they want at a whim, we just have to do what we can with what we have.
I got to thinking about something one of you said and it made me think. I bet that Katakuri level coO is going to be a lot more common here on out with the higher level enemies. My reasoning is this. Kizaru can more and attack at the speed of light, though I’m sure his reactions and capabilities of those reactions (such as his speed of thought) are still limited by the human condition, haki not withstanding. Which tells me this, his attacks and Raleigh’s counters (more specifically Raleigh) had to be based in CoO for their speed to make a difference in the battle, otherwise they simply couldn’t act or react quickly enough to make a difference. Say kizaru makes a lightspeed kick, which would be orders of magnitude faster than human thought and reaction, which is somewhere around a half a second to three full seconds in a fight situation between masters,if I remember right, so in order to block it you would either have to react faster than light, which is a physical impossibility, or he will have has to react BEFORE the attack began.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 11, 2019, Original Post Date: Jan 11, 2019 ---

That's just hype though, and he's lost enough times for one reason or another.

I wonder about that... I kinda imagine him either turning himself in, in a suicidal funk, or them literally catching him passed out drunk.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 11, 2019 ---

Lol! Which rhymes!

 

[kalmier]

Enraged Whitebeard after Ace's death would have eaten Akainu alive if the plot armor didnt protect him because he couldnt stand anymore.

Dude seriously, I'm quite open-minded and considering we haven't seen that much from the great powers of the OP world I can be fairly easily convinced that character A is as strong or a bit stronget than character B, but the 'plot armor' argument simply I'm not buying it. It is not a valid argument. From what we've seen from Akainu, and Oda stating that had he been a pirate he would've found the One Piece in an year it is safe to judge that he is potentially as strong as the four Emperors. WB didn't manage to 2-3 shot Akainu with full-fledged shots, how come Kaidou will 2-3 shot him with his club? But you said it yourself you're joking there Anyways yes, in an 1v1 combat Kaidou probably has no equal, that's what Oda is trying to tell us in anycase,

That's just hype though, and he's lost enough times for one reason or another.

Just like Hrathgrath said I wouldn't be surprised that he provoked destiny and wanted to see what would happen, in search of emotions lol, it seems he's quite the daredevil considering Odra presented him to be almost immortal.

 

[nik87]

he's lost enough times for one reason or another

We dont know how and why he lost when he did. Was it even a 1vs1 or he went alone against entire armies/pirate crews?

@kalmier I think you shouldnt exclude plot armor just because you dont buy it and dont consider it valid argument. One piece has a lot of plot armor and it needs to be acknowledged. Just take a look at Luffy vs Katakuri fight or should I say, Plot armor vs Katakuri?
It's obvious that Akainu was beaten and his last words were "damn you Whitebeard" and sliding into the abyss while unable to stand, only to be saved and resurface only after Whitebeard died. It's obvious that for the purpose of the story Akainu wasnt allowed to die then and there.
Also, it's obvious that plot was working against Whitebeard, because no matter what, he had to die there, thus the illness, the heart being stabbed from the start of the battle, insides burnt, face partially blown off...

Well I was joking about 2-3 hit clubbing him to death but there might be ore truth behind it than I thought at first. Being hit by vibrations from Gura Gura no mi or by a huge club by Kaido, tbh I dont know what's worse. Considering Kaido's speed(blitzing G4 Luffy) and considering that he might be physically strongest individual, getting hit by his club might be more devastating than getting hit by WB's DF.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Yeah he reminds me of a guy who used to post here a lot and ragequit a while back... *hannibalcough*

The thing you posted earlier about “can you prove it’s not” is called proving a negative, which is next to impossible. And in a written world, it IS impossible, because the author can change anything they want at a whim, we just have to do what we can with what we have.
I got to thinking about something one of you said and it made me think. I bet that Katakuri level coO is going to be a lot more common here on out with the higher level enemies. My reasoning is this. Kizaru can more and attack at the speed of light, though I’m sure his reactions and capabilities of those reactions (such as his speed of thought) are still limited by the human condition, haki not withstanding. Which tells me this, his attacks and Raleigh’s counters (more specifically Raleigh) had to be based in CoO for their speed to make a difference in the battle, otherwise they simply couldn’t act or react quickly enough to make a difference. Say kizaru makes a lightspeed kick, which would be orders of magnitude faster than human thought and reaction, which is somewhere around a half a second to three full seconds in a fight situation between masters,if I remember right, so in order to block it you would either have to react faster than light, which is a physical impossibility, or he will have has to react BEFORE the attack began.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 11, 2019, Original Post Date: Jan 11, 2019 ---

I wonder about that... I kinda imagine him either turning himself in, in a suicidal funk, or them literally catching him passed out drunk.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 11, 2019 ---

Lol! Which rhymes!

Thanks for that info.

I agree

 

[kalmier]

@nik87, 'plot armor' is not a valid argument because it can be used anywhere and for anything, because every action / movement / decision of a character in some series is decided by the plot, the direction of the story which the creators have decided to follow. It is an extremely malleable and abusable argument. For example WB should've died when he had his heart pierced, but he did not because of plot. He had to die when he got his insides burnt, but he did not. Akainu should've blown his head with Meigou but Oda had decided to have only a small part of his face destroyed so that he can face BB a few minutes later. When coming to this board I though we were discussing the series' characters, not the 'logical coninuation of plot', or how 'it should've been plot-wise'.
So to summarize, WB did not die from all that because of plot... or because he was a powerful monster?
What about Kaidou? He was supposed to die numerous times, but the guillotine blade always shattered so he lived... because of plot or because he's a powerful almost unkillable monster? Akainu had to die due to the blows received by WB but he survived ...because of plot or because he's a powerful monster? (maybe not an unkillable one)
Please, for the sake of argument, let's stop with this plot thing , that's not how discussing power levels works in my opinion. If you don't agree that's fine, let's just put that argument to the sidelines for the moment.

 

[Fox666]

I bet that Katakuri level coO is going to be a lot more common here on out with the higher level enemies.

It was implied Katakuri's ability is extremely rare, even for the strongest in the world, and Big Mom herself doesn't have it.

We have seen Akainu avoiding Marco and Vista Haki slashes that look similar to how Katakuri changes the shape of his body to match incoming attacks, but I'm just speculation.

Say kizaru makes a lightspeed kick, which would be orders of magnitude faster than human thought and reaction, which is somewhere around a half a second to three full seconds in a fight situation between masters,if I remember right, so in order to block it you would either have to react faster than light, which is a physical impossibility, or he will have has to react BEFORE the attack began.

It may be impossible to avoid an attack at the speed of light in real life, but maybe not be the case in One Piece.

 

[Hrathgrath]

It was implied Katakuri's ability is extremely rare, even for the strongest in the world, and Big Mom herself doesn't have it.

It may be impossible to avoid an attack at the speed of light in real life, but maybe not be the case in One Piece.

1. True but that may have been stated as such just for story effect, and may not hold true later on. Guess we’ll have to wait and see. *shrug*
2. Fair point. It’s also possible that he’s not really moving or attacking at the speed of light, but they say he is. Sorta like Gin and his zanpakto “moving at the speed of sound”

 

[nik87]

@kalmier I am not assuming that everything is plot armor, let's be clear about that and I'm not attaching to in-combat actions but rather those that happen out of combat.
Plot purpose of WB was to die in Marineford, no matter how strong he was, Oda wanted to remove him from the equation.
Also, the plot purpose of Akainu was to survive the fight with Whitebeard and become fleet Admiral and whatever Oda has in store for him later on.
Did he survive fall into the abyss, while defeated, because he was a monster or because plot protected him? Imo, plot armor.

Did Luffy defeat Katakuri because he was better or because plot armor was giving him a hand several times? Plot protection obviously.
Getting warned y opponent that G4 is running out, Brulee magically appearing in front of him and leaving Mirror World, making Katakuri unable to follow him... Things going Luffy's way conveniently like that is obvious plot armor. Luffy wasnt bothered by the injury that spear inflicted because he is a monster who can take that or plot decided to ignore that would for the rest of the fight?

Plot armor is often present and it takes a trained eye to notice when the plot is giving a character a hand.
Strawhats didn't lose to Pacifista's on Sabaody because the plot was helping Pacifista but because they were too weak.

 

[Shasha23]

@kalm

@kalmier I am not assuming that everything is plot armor, let's be clear about that and I'm not attaching to in-combat actions but rather those that happen out of combat.
Plot purpose of WB was to die in Marineford, no matter how strong he was, Oda wanted to remove him from the equation.
Also, the plot purpose of Akainu was to survive the fight with Whitebeard and become fleet Admiral and whatever Oda has in store for him later on.
Did he survive fall into the abyss, while defeated, because he was a monster or because plot protected him? Imo, plot armor.

Plot armor is often present and it takes a trained eye to notice when the plot is giving a character a hand.
Strawhats didn't lose to Pacifista's on Sabaody because the plot was helping Pacifista but because they were too weak.

Dude if anything plot protected Newgate, when Akainu blew off half his face he should have died!
Plot protected Newgate and demanded that Akainu stay away from him until he died so he could face Teach, plot didnt protect Akainu but protected Newgate!

True there is a lot of plot armor in this story though!

 

[Pirate Queen]

If any of you ever decide to take a literature class for college, try (and I hope your lucky enough ) to take an English class based on "the hero's journey"

It really highlights the struggles all heroes (movie, comic book, book, etc.) must go through to achieve their goals.

"Plot Armor", is viewed more negatively than it should be and I think it's because of lengths one goes to disregard fundamental essence of one's journey and the supporting cast around them.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Yeah he reminds me of a guy who used to post here a lot and ragequit a while back... *hannibalcough*

This about me?
I don't think I'm at the reasoning level of HP.

The thing you posted earlier about “can you prove it’s not” is called proving a negative, which is next to impossible. And in a written world, it IS impossible, because the author can change anything they want at a whim, we just have to do what we can with what we have.
I got to thinking about something one of you said and it made me think. I bet that Katakuri level coO is going to be a lot more common here on out with the higher level enemies. My reasoning is this. Kizaru can more and attack at the speed of light, though I’m sure his reactions and capabilities of those reactions (such as his speed of thought) are still limited by the human condition, haki not withstanding. Which tells me this, his attacks and Raleigh’s counters (more specifically Raleigh) had to be based in CoO for their speed to make a difference in the battle, otherwise they simply couldn’t act or react quickly enough to make a difference. Say kizaru makes a lightspeed kick, which would be orders of magnitude faster than human thought and reaction, which is somewhere around a half a second to three full seconds in a fight situation between masters,if I remember right, so in order to block it you would either have to react faster than light, which is a physical impossibility, or he will have has to react BEFORE the attack began.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 11, 2019, Original Post Date: Jan 11, 2019 ---

I wonder about that... I kinda imagine him either turning himself in, in a suicidal funk, or them literally catching him passed out drunk.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 11, 2019 ---

Lol! Which rhymes!

I don't think so (regarding CK's CoO becoming common from here on out). It's not like the rarity associated with CoC.

It's like comparing the rarity of Logias which is rare to begin with to that of Mythical Zoans which is extremely rare provided we only have 1 character (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong – no sarcasm intended) so far with it.

I'm guessing we'll be seeing 1 or 2 characters – maximum – between now and the end of OP with CK's CoO.
Just like I'm expecting to see at least 1 more character with a Mythical Zoan DF (Oda better not disappoint).

Regarding Kizaru's lightspeed kick, I didn't see anything amazing with it. Just sth weaklings like pre time skip Luffy and other Supernova members couldn't keep up with which is most likely due to their lack of precognition back then. But bring in a master of the arts like Dark King Rayleigh or any top tier character with mastery over it and Kizaru's usually superior speed is no longer a thing.
If that's the conclusion for those with mastery over CoO, then imagine that of those with mastery of advanced CoO like CK.
Even without super reflexes I think they'd counter it but most characters of the high-end tier already possess super reflexes while others like CK possess some super speed of their own so countering becomes as easy as taking candy from a baby.


Also, for those thinking stamina or endurance might be a problem for the likes of CK and Luffy, it should be noted that were it not for the extreme blood loss both characters suffered from during their duel, they could've kept going on for as long as possible. Hence, a quicker conclusion to the battle.

 

[Fox666]

1. True but that may have been stated as such just for story effect, and may not hold true later on. Guess we’ll have to wait and see. *shrug*

Katakuri being the #1 subordinate of a Yonko, there is not much competition, unless every Yonko or Admiral have the ability. :/

2. Fair point. It’s also possible that he’s not really moving or attacking at the speed of light, but they say he is. Sorta like Gin and his zanpakto “moving at the speed of sound”

Kizaru should be moving at the speed of light, since he even turns himself into light and bounces off reflective surfaces. We have also seen Enel using his Devil Fruit to travel long distances. But like Kizaru, Enel attacks would be impossible to survive in real life, yet many characters did.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I don't think so (regarding CK's CoO becoming common from here on out). It's not like the rarity associated with CoC.

It's like comparing the rarity of Logias which is rare to begin with to that of Mythical Zoans which is extremely rare provided we only have 1 character (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong – no sarcasm intended) so far with it.

I'm guessing we'll be seeing 1 or 2 characters – maximum – between now and the end of OP with CK's CoO.
Just like I'm expecting to see at least 1 more character with a Mythical Zoan DF (Oda better not disappoint).

Regarding Kizaru's lightspeed kick, I didn't see anything amazing with it. Just sth weaklings like pre time skip Luffy and other Supernova members couldn't keep up with which is most likely due to their lack of precognition back then. But bring in a master of the arts like Dark King Rayleigh or any top tier character with mastery over it and Kizaru's usually superior speed is no longer a thing.
If that's the conclusion for those with mastery over CoO, then imagine that of those with mastery of advanced CoO like CK.
Even without super reflexes I think they'd counter it but most characters of the high-end tier already possess super reflexes while others like CK possess some super speed of their own so countering becomes as easy as taking candy from a baby.


Also, for those thinking stamina or endurance might be a problem for the likes of CK and Luffy, it should be noted that were it not for the extreme blood loss both characters suffered from during their duel, they could've kept going on for as long as possible. Hence, a quicker conclusion to the battle.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 12, 2019 ---

This about me?
I don't think I'm at the reasoning level of HP.

Yet your posting sounds very nonsensical like his!

That's not very fair.

Ains comments quite well and isn't close minded like HP used to be.