One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
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• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[M3J]

I rather thought that it was rather obvious that high speed can counter future sight. After all, if you can't move in time, then all future sight could do is help you brace for the attack.

 

[nik87]

I rather thought that it was rather obvious that high speed can counter future sight. After all, if you can't move in time, then all future sight could do is help you brace for the attack.

Well yeah but several times he used it and countered the speed with ease, that's what confused me.

 

[M3J]

That means Luffy wasn't quick enough. Katakuri's quick and has future sight, which is why Luffy had such a difficult time fighting Katakuri.
It's like with the Uchiha and Sharingan. Sharingan's prediction ability doesn't mean much if the user isn't fast enough to move or keep up with the opponent.

 

[Fox666]

Well yeah but several times he used it and countered the speed with ease, that's what confused me.

He can predict the future, he dodges before the attack even starts.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

He can predict the future, he dodges before the attack even starts.

He doesn't just do that. He counters your attack by attacking you before you are able to actually attack him since he's seen what you are up to in the future.

A terrible opponent indeed.

 

[nik87]

He can predict the future, he dodges before the attack even starts.

He does that by intervening into the future he saw and by that he changes it, thus what happened after that moment is no longer the same and he has to re-see the future again and that was troublesome to do with Snakeman's attack speed.
While he was re-seeing what happens next attacks already hit him.

 

[Fox666]

Snakeman can change the direction of the attack if they are dodged, meaning Katakuri has to predict many futures. Besides they come from multiple direction, and Katakuri can only see something in the future which his eyes could reach...

 

[M3J]

Problem with predicting the future is that it's not set in stone, Katakuri can easily change the outcome. He probably did that by attacking Sanji during the wedding and when he told Luffy he was shrinking when in Gear 4.

 

[nik87]

The problem was high attack speed and maneuvering ability of Snakeman punches.
Usually, an attempt to attack either hits or misses and it ends there. However, with Snakeman, if it misses it doesn't end but goes on.
First hit Katakuri sees and dodges it, from that moment the future he saw is changed and he doesnt know what's coming next instantly and he has to focus and re-see the future again but since attack speed was so fast it wasnt really effective.
High attack speed is the weak spot of future sight and regular Observation Haki would probably deal better with it.

I guess we can say that at that point Katakuri was already exhausted and suffered a self-injury but maybe also his regular Observation aint that good.
After all, I think it was Rayleigh who said that no matter how good your eyes are some things are too fast for eyes to follow and thus Observation and sensing the next attack is what regular CoO should deal with. Or some things just dont make sense no matter how much we try lol.

 

[Shasha23]

I guess we can say that at that point Katakuri was already exhausted and suffered a self-injury but maybe also his regular Observation aint that good.
After all, I think it was Rayleigh who said that no matter how good your eyes are some things are too fast for eyes to follow and thus Observation and sensing the next attack is what regular CoO should deal with. Or some things just dont make sense no matter how much we try lol.

I think its a problem to view Ktakuri's COO like that, because the thing is his regular observation was so good he could even see 5sec into the future, you shouldnt view it as 2 different things.
Towards the end his haki was probably running out thats why Snakeman became such an issue for him to deal with.

 

[nik87]

I think its a problem to view Ktakuri's COO like that, because the thing is his regular observation was so good he could even see 5sec into the future, you shouldnt view it as 2 different things.
Towards the end his haki was probably running out thats why Snakeman became such an issue for him to deal with.

I dont know... There seems to be several layers to Observation Haki. Rayleigh doesnt have future sight but his basic observation is good enough to combat Kizaru in high speed swordsmanship which we can assume is faster than Luffy's Snakeman and future sight either wasnt to keep up with that speed all the time or, like you said, Katakuri was exhausted and he was running out of it and his concentration got worse...

 

[Shasha23]

I dont know... There seems to be several layers to Observation Haki. Rayleigh doesnt have future sight but his basic observation is good enough to combat Kizaru in high speed swordsmanship which we can assume is faster than Luffy's Snakeman and future sight either wasnt to keep up with that speed all the time or, like you said, Katakuri was exhausted and he was running out of it and his concentration got worse...

Yes there are but from what i got from the explanation was that Katakuri's COO is so good he can see 5 seconds ahead, it would also fit in with what Ray-san said about some people being so good with COO they can see into the future.
Nah Kizaru's movement speed using his ability is extremely fast but his combat speed is not faster than snakeman attacks for me

 

[nik87]

Yes there are but from what i got from the explanation was that Katakuri's COO is so good he can see 5 seconds ahead, it would also fit in with what Ray-san said about some people being so good with COO they can see into the future.
Nah Kizaru's movement speed using his ability is extremely fast but his combat speed is not faster than snakeman attacks for me

I dont remember it being specified as 5 secs. He just is able to see slightly into the future while others arent, even if he was able to see 1 minute into the future it wouldn't matter since from the moment of his intervention the future changes...
Rayleigh and Kizaru sword fight had weird details implying that it's high speed and anime confirmed it. They are clashing instantly over and over while it takes some time between Luffy's Snakeman attacks to make a curve and hit again.

These weird elements mean that they clashed 7 times in the same panel meaning its extremely high speed.

 

[Fox666]

These flashes are from Kizaru's light sword (note the rotation matches Kizaru's sword). Think of everything a lightsaber in Star Wars hit something.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Yes there are but from what i got from the explanation was that Katakuri's COO is so good he can see 5 seconds ahead, it would also fit in with what Ray-san said about some people being so good with COO they can see into the future.
Nah Kizaru's movement speed using his ability is extremely fast but his combat speed is not faster than snakeman attacks for me

Clearly Katakuri's CoO is better than Rayleigh and we were shown many times in his battle with Luffy that he doesn't just sees the future with Haki, he changes that future if it's harmful to him and can see into the new future again. He did that many times with Luffy and hence battered the crap out of him even though Luffy started seeing it too (albeit infrequently).
I feel in the events at tea party, he got satisfied with his jelly bean throw being more effective than a speeding bullet as he got satisfied with it taking out Sanji and didn't bother looking into the future a second time at that point since he didn't expect a weakling like Sanji (from Katakuri's point of view) to possess adequate CoO.

What I'm trying to say is:
Changing the future can be done even after a certain future has been changed. That is, to see the repercussion of a changed future, he can look into the changed future and change sth in it. It depends on how frequent he desires to look into the future.

 

[nik87]

These flashes are from Kizaru's light sword (note the rotation matches Kizaru's sword). Think of everything a lightsaber in Star Wars hit something.

Check how their backgrounds looks like, it's showing high-speed movement.
His sword doesnt have those flashes normally, only when clashing.

 

[M3J]

Admirals are the public face of WG, the Marines.
CipherPol is WG's personal force which obeys only to them and it needs strong individuals in their ranks otherwise nothing stops the Admirals(Marines) from taking over the WG and it's clear that Marines are being kept in check and being used.
People like Garp, Aokiji, Smoker and some others would gladly give the middle finger to WG but there must be something that enforces their obedience.
We even saw Akainu in an argument with Gorosei because he doesn't like being used and made fool of...

The Marines became Marines to protect the people and stop bad people. CP0 does not seem to be part of the balance of power against the Marines, given Lucci wasn't strong enough to beat Luffy, whereas none of the admirals saw Luffy as a challenge. The only thing that can and does stop the Marines is their own sense of justice and desire to keep people safe and the world peaceful.

Garp and Smoker made it more than clear they hate pirates and see most of them as evil. Garp may be happy with giving the middle finger to WG, but not to the Marines, and Smoker is hellbent on taking down evil people. It's why he was mad at the WG/Marines for not giving the Straw Hats any credit. Aokiji is an odd case, but his justice is lazy justice, which is at contrast with Akainu's absolute justice. Aokiji wanted peace, but not at the expense of innocent lives or good people.

Oh maybe appear as a ghost and scare Orochi? Yes, that'll do it too....

That'd be quite possible too, Brook can pretend to be Kin'emon and scare Orochi shitless, which would be a great gag, and distract the ninjas, if the ninjas don't fear ghosts.

So we get a chapter next week.

No.

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

given Lucci wasn't strong enough to beat Luffy, whereas none of the admirals saw Luffy as a challenge.

This statement is somehow wrong. Why?
Lucci is obviously stronger than smoker, but luffy could never touch smoker pre TS. Why?? Because of DF adv.
If Lucci had logia fruit like admirals, then I’m 90% sure he’ll be admiral level.

 

[hokageji]

That'd be quite possible too, Brook can pretend to be Kin'emon and scare Orochi shitless, which would be a great gag, and distract the ninjas, if the ninjas don't fear ghosts.

Even if the Ninjas arent scared, they'll be confused for sure. They already saw a clone disappear. Now a ghost that cant be physically attacked.... I am loving this idea of Brooks scaring the shit outta Orochi....
I can actually imagine a scenario:
Brooks sees Orochi's yamata no orochi and starts yelling scared
Orochi and others see Brooks scared face and get scared themselves, assume its Kinemon's ghosts.
Brook claims to be Kinemon's ghost *insert skull joke here*
asks Kumorosaki if he can see her panties.....
Brooks MVP again....

If Lucci had logia fruit like admirals, then I’m 90% sure he’ll be admiral level.

Actually, Lucci's real ability upgrade would be Haki. We've seen in the new world that being a logia can actually go against you when fighting a haki user. I would guess that his haki is significantly improved at this stage.

 

[Admiral Teach]

My thought was that Haki blooms out of desperate combat and reliance on willpower as a trigger for initial awakening, similar to how we see Luffy using his COC in dire situations without even realizing. Coby likewise achieved access to his COO after sustaining enough war trauma. It seems like this goes against the principles of rokushiki. By becoming naturally superhuman through reliance on purely physical means, practioners don't ever really make use of Haki or come into the conditions to trigger it.

It's a flawed idea, but it would help explain why none of CP9 apparently could use it. It would please me to know that the martial art was like a train choosing between two tracks. So they never switched or had need to, even when faced with overwhelming opponents, because the training automatically deviated how Haki is utilized.

For instance, Kame. It allows the users to avoid attacks similar to COO for dodging purposes, but it is not in fact COO, something else entirely. So it therefore would be the first instinctive thing to do for a Rokushiki user. Similar moves like Soru, especially Soru, would further exacerbate this reliance on physical prowess instead of willpower concentration on listening.

Then we have Tekkai. If you are trying to naturally, as much as wuxia martial arts superpowers can be "natural", gain iron skin, I could see where Rokushiki instructor would actually try to avoid training a CP9 agent-to-be in COA, or Hardening specifically. If they just use Willpower, then their bodies won't gain that natural iron-ification skill that is Tekkai. And since anyone can learn COA, but apparently very few can learn Tekkai, it could be argued that the former is harder to obtain. Which makes sense. It's easier to gain willpower than to alter one's body to be superhuman, even in the OP universe. Otherwise Nami and Ussop would've done something by now to make themselves as strong as Zoro, for defensive means if nothing else. (Indeed, it is possible that Zoro is as durable as he is because he naturally uses a mobile version of Tekkai that the wolf-CP9 agent used. That would help with suspending disbelief in regards to his impossible feats, like having buildings crush him and then get up afterwards, or surviving such terrible sword-cuts. But I digress)

So for training, the CP9 were to learn the martial art first, without using willpower (Haki) as a crutch. Then they could master Haki as it comes to them naturally. None of the agents we saw were particularly old, and Lucci, Kaku and Kalifla are still young enough to be in their twenties, no? Seems that they would be introduced to Haki as needed, same as they did not receive devil fruits until it was considered a good idea to increase combat power in their ranks.

Another thought: martial arts training will involve willpower, obviously, in real life and presumably in OP Rokushiki. And Haki is also will based, but is expendable. It could well be that training both would deplete a person of their willpower/spirit and leave them too exhausted to improve rapidly. With Rokushiki it may be that is not good enough. Rapid and incredible conditions must be met.

Case in point, Sanji: he learned Geppou, but only while running from his worst nightmare. Worst nightmare, literally (other than all women spontaniously turning into Okama-baka). Imagine the desperation involved! Now just think of training as a child in all six forms through such desperate training. It requires intense concentration, which is linked to willpower. One would have a hard time doing both. And so they trained in Rokushiki, which requires harder and seemingly longer physical duress, leaving out the mental training or whatever normal non-MC character people have to do to unlock it.

Ah, I wonder if Brooke will be used to frighten Orochi. That would be an option. Then indeed he would be MVP again.