Discussion One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
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• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Admiral Teach]

My thought was that Haki blooms out of desperate combat and reliance on willpower as a trigger for initial awakening, similar to how we see Luffy using his COC in dire situations without even realizing. Coby likewise achieved access to his COO after sustaining enough war trauma. It seems like this goes against the principles of rokushiki. By becoming naturally superhuman through reliance on purely physical means, practioners don't ever really make use of Haki or come into the conditions to trigger it.

It's a flawed idea, but it would help explain why none of CP9 apparently could use it. It would please me to know that the martial art was like a train choosing between two tracks. So they never switched or had need to, even when faced with overwhelming opponents, because the training automatically deviated how Haki is utilized.

For instance, Kame. It allows the users to avoid attacks similar to COO for dodging purposes, but it is not in fact COO, something else entirely. So it therefore would be the first instinctive thing to do for a Rokushiki user. Similar moves like Soru, especially Soru, would further exacerbate this reliance on physical prowess instead of willpower concentration on listening.

Then we have Tekkai. If you are trying to naturally, as much as wuxia martial arts superpowers can be "natural", gain iron skin, I could see where Rokushiki instructor would actually try to avoid training a CP9 agent-to-be in COA, or Hardening specifically. If they just use Willpower, then their bodies won't gain that natural iron-ification skill that is Tekkai. And since anyone can learn COA, but apparently very few can learn Tekkai, it could be argued that the former is harder to obtain. Which makes sense. It's easier to gain willpower than to alter one's body to be superhuman, even in the OP universe. Otherwise Nami and Ussop would've done something by now to make themselves as strong as Zoro, for defensive means if nothing else. (Indeed, it is possible that Zoro is as durable as he is because he naturally uses a mobile version of Tekkai that the wolf-CP9 agent used. That would help with suspending disbelief in regards to his impossible feats, like having buildings crush him and then get up afterwards, or surviving such terrible sword-cuts. But I digress)

So for training, the CP9 were to learn the martial art first, without using willpower (Haki) as a crutch. Then they could master Haki as it comes to them naturally. None of the agents we saw were particularly old, and Lucci, Kaku and Kalifla are still young enough to be in their twenties, no? Seems that they would be introduced to Haki as needed, same as they did not receive devil fruits until it was considered a good idea to increase combat power in their ranks.

Another thought: martial arts training will involve willpower, obviously, in real life and presumably in OP Rokushiki. And Haki is also will based, but is expendable. It could well be that training both would deplete a person of their willpower/spirit and leave them too exhausted to improve rapidly. With Rokushiki it may be that is not good enough. Rapid and incredible conditions must be met.

Case in point, Sanji: he learned Geppou, but only while running from his worst nightmare. Worst nightmare, literally (other than all women spontaniously turning into Okama-baka). Imagine the desperation involved! Now just think of training as a child in all six forms through such desperate training. It requires intense concentration, which is linked to willpower. One would have a hard time doing both. And so they trained in Rokushiki, which requires harder and seemingly longer physical duress, leaving out the mental training or whatever normal non-MC character people have to do to unlock it.

Ah, I wonder if Brooke will be used to frighten Orochi. That would be an option. Then indeed he would be MVP again.

 

[M3J]

This statement is somehow wrong. Why?
Lucci is obviously stronger than smoker, but luffy could never touch smoker pre TS. Why?? Because of DF adv.
If Lucci had logia fruit like admirals, then I’m 90% sure he’ll be admiral level.

it's not wrong. Lucci lost to Luffy, while Luffy never beat Smoker prior to the timeskip. The admirals could one-shot Luffy if they wanted to, three-shot him in worst case scenario, but Lucci couldn't take Luffy down. Likely he could have with a devil fruit, but it's also doubtable if he'd be at admiral level, and this is someone I consider extremely strong pre-timeskip and am assuming he's gotten stronger.

Also would be interesting to see him appear on Wano, given zoan users and all.

Even if the Ninjas arent scared, they'll be confused for sure. They already saw a clone disappear. Now a ghost that cant be physically attacked.... I am loving this idea of Brooks scaring the shit outta Orochi....
I can actually imagine a scenario:
Brooks sees Orochi's yamata no orochi and starts yelling scared
Orochi and others see Brooks scared face and get scared themselves, assume its Kinemon's ghosts.
Brook claims to be Kinemon's ghost *insert skull joke here*
asks Kumorosaki if he can see her panties.....
Brooks MVP again....


Actually, Lucci's real ability upgrade would be Haki. We've seen in the new world that being a logia can actually go against you when fighting a haki user. I would guess that his haki is significantly improved at this stage.

The downside is that Brook's ghost has an afro while apparently none of Kozuki clan or their retainers had afro, so Orochi might get scared... or he probably wouldn't notice. At least, something to get the ninjas away from Brook. Weird though that Robin hasn't tried fighting them or at least, using her powers to keep them in one place.

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

Even if the Ninjas arent scared, they'll be confused for sure. They already saw a clone disappear. Now a ghost that cant be physically attacked.... I am loving this idea of Brooks scaring the shit outta Orochi....
I can actually imagine a scenario:
Brooks sees Orochi's yamata no orochi and starts yelling scared
Orochi and others see Brooks scared face and get scared themselves, assume its Kinemon's ghosts.
Brook claims to be Kinemon's ghost *insert skull joke here*
asks Kumorosaki if he can see her panties.....
Brooks MVP again....


Actually, Lucci's real ability upgrade would be Haki. We've seen in the new world that being a logia can actually go against you when fighting a haki user. I would guess that his haki is significantly improved at this stage.

How?? Except for smoker, who obviously lost his cool against Doffy. Look at WB vs Aokiji. If the fighter is fast enough to morph before being hit then it’s harder to hit you. Whereas for lucci he has a physical body that he can’t morph. Logia = advantage, as you cannot Katakuri your way out of it. You still take damage when blocking with Haki. Look at Katakuri blocking G4 luffy with a haki, he took damage still. So a logia user with good coo will be at less advantage... if smoker improves his Coo he’ll be a top fighter

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

How?? Except for smoker, who obviously lost his cool against Doffy. Look at WB vs Aokiji. If the fighter is fast enough to morph before being hit then it’s harder to hit you. Whereas for lucci he has a physical body that he can’t morph. Logia = advantage, as you cannot Katakuri your way out of it. You still take damage when blocking with Haki. Look at Katakuri blocking G4 luffy with a haki, he took damage still. So a logia user with good coo will be at less advantage... if smoker improves his Coo he’ll be a top fighter

Using G4 Luffy and Katakuri as an example is plain wrong. You have to consider that there might be significant difference in the level of armament Haki as clearly seen in the battle between Katakuri and Luffy.
Yes Katakuri took damage when blocking G4 Luffy attack, but had no problem with blocking basic Luffy haki attack.
Even a Logia user with good CoA is problematic enough when facing an opponent with similar CoA.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 9, 2019, Original Post Date: Feb 9, 2019 ---

We've seen in the new world that being a logia can actually go against you when fighting a haki user

It's still a huge advantage if the Logia user also has Haki.
It's only a disadvantage when the Logia user has no Haki while facing a Haki enabled opponent.

 

[thedude]

My thought was that Haki blooms out of desperate combat and reliance on willpower as a trigger for initial awakening, similar to how we see Luffy using his COC in dire situations without even realizing. Coby likewise achieved access to his COO after sustaining enough war trauma. It seems like this goes against the principles of rokushiki. By becoming naturally superhuman through reliance on purely physical means, practioners don't ever really make use of Haki or come into the conditions to trigger it.

It's a flawed idea, but it would help explain why none of CP9 apparently could use it. It would please me to know that the martial art was like a train choosing between two tracks. So they never switched or had need to, even when faced with overwhelming opponents, because the training automatically deviated how Haki is utilized.

For instance, Kame. It allows the users to avoid attacks similar to COO for dodging purposes, but it is not in fact COO, something else entirely. So it therefore would be the first instinctive thing to do for a Rokushiki user. Similar moves like Soru, especially Soru, would further exacerbate this reliance on physical prowess instead of willpower concentration on listening.

Then we have Tekkai. If you are trying to naturally, as much as wuxia martial arts superpowers can be "natural", gain iron skin, I could see where Rokushiki instructor would actually try to avoid training a CP9 agent-to-be in COA, or Hardening specifically. If they just use Willpower, then their bodies won't gain that natural iron-ification skill that is Tekkai. And since anyone can learn COA, but apparently very few can learn Tekkai, it could be argued that the former is harder to obtain. Which makes sense. It's easier to gain willpower than to alter one's body to be superhuman, even in the OP universe. Otherwise Nami and Ussop would've done something by now to make themselves as strong as Zoro, for defensive means if nothing else. (Indeed, it is possible that Zoro is as durable as he is because he naturally uses a mobile version of Tekkai that the wolf-CP9 agent used. That would help with suspending disbelief in regards to his impossible feats, like having buildings crush him and then get up afterwards, or surviving such terrible sword-cuts. But I digress)

So for training, the CP9 were to learn the martial art first, without using willpower (Haki) as a crutch. Then they could master Haki as it comes to them naturally. None of the agents we saw were particularly old, and Lucci, Kaku and Kalifla are still young enough to be in their twenties, no? Seems that they would be introduced to Haki as needed, same as they did not receive devil fruits until it was considered a good idea to increase combat power in their ranks.

Another thought: martial arts training will involve willpower, obviously, in real life and presumably in OP Rokushiki. And Haki is also will based, but is expendable. It could well be that training both would deplete a person of their willpower/spirit and leave them too exhausted to improve rapidly. With Rokushiki it may be that is not good enough. Rapid and incredible conditions must be met.

Case in point, Sanji: he learned Geppou, but only while running from his worst nightmare. Worst nightmare, literally (other than all women spontaniously turning into Okama-baka). Imagine the desperation involved! Now just think of training as a child in all six forms through such desperate training. It requires intense concentration, which is linked to willpower. One would have a hard time doing both. And so they trained in Rokushiki, which requires harder and seemingly longer physical duress, leaving out the mental training or whatever normal non-MC character people have to do to unlock it.

Ah, I wonder if Brooke will be used to frighten Orochi. That would be an option. Then indeed he would be MVP again.

I agree, and you missed another perfect example - Usopp developing his CoO when he was trying to save Luffy and Law from Sugar.

http://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/One-Piece-chapter-758-page-11.html

And for people arguing about Haki and feats that happened pre and post time skip...don't bother. It's clear that Oda was still developing what exactly Haki was, and changed it slightly since the skip. Notice that not a single person with Haki has used it the way Sentomaru or Mariogold and Sandersonia used in their battle with Luffy (where they projected a sort of force field that his punches bounced off of). Or when Akainu was chasing Jimbei to finish Luffy off, and Vista cut him, and he said "Damn Haki users". Vista cut his neck and shoulder. Today, that's a death right there, but back then when Oda was still figuring out what Haki was, it just temporarily slowed him down. He wasn't cut or anything after that. If that happened today, he's at least cut on the neck.

So we should all stop trying to argue pre and post time skip haki, it's changed so much since then.

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

Vista cut his neck and shoulder. Today, that's a death right there, but back then when Oda was still figuring out what Haki was, it just temporarily slowed him down.

The idea behind this was that he morphed his magma... but can’t really confirm since I’m not Oda

 

[thedude]

The idea behind this was that he morphed his magma... but can’t really confirm since I’m not Oda

I mean, i can see people saying that today, but given how much haki has changed, and how ill defined it was prior to the time skip, I tend to think Oda just adjusted what it was and how it worked. Like I said, it's interesting how not a single instance of haki has matched Sentomaru or Mariogold and Sandersonia, or Rayleigh when he first showed it to Luffy against the elephant. The time skip was 9 years ago (holy crap it was 2010....that's so long ago!), and since then not a single person has used it the way 4 characters did pre-timeskip.

So people can have their theories, mine is, Oda changed Haki, and what happened pre-time skip isn't representative of the characters and their skills with it.

 

[Admiral Teach]

What I found interesting is that there is a reference to a "secret to fighting devil fruit users" in Baratie, since that is one reason for why Don Kreig targeted Zeff. He thought the man knew the secret, which he presumably would for having been a successful Grand Line pirate. He even referred to the first half as Paradise, so he was presumably an adventurer of the New World, since those that have traveled there all end up calling the earlier half as such. While newbies like Kreig went scurrying back. (Albeit partially because of a certain swordsman floating in wait)

My hope is that we see the force field concept again. It would be cool to see... I really liked the concept. It could be that it is a very high-tier technique.

As to Akainu... why are we saying that has been retconned? What happened has been explained by Katakuri's entire character. He was just doing what Kata does, morph away from the blows. That explains why he appeared to be hit but was not hurt. We see Katakuri do this exact thing many times. It would be no surprise that an Admiral could perform the same feat. Maybe he almost didn't manage, hence his statement "Damn Haki users".

It would also explain it if Ace could do the same, given his fight with me. Poor fool hadn't gotten hit in years. But he lost control of his CoO. That's why I mentioned his brother. I already knew they were relatives. 'Cuz he talked about it before. By aggrivating his emotions, I did to poor Ace what Luffy accidentally did to Katakuri by exposing his shames (donut fetish and evil teeth). Zehahahaha! Nothin I do is without meaning! Zehahahah!

 

[Hrathgrath]

What I found interesting is that there is a reference to a "secret to fighting devil fruit users" in Baratie, since that is one reason for why Don Kreig targeted Zeff. He thought the man knew the secret, which he presumably would for having been a successful Grand Line pirate. He even referred to the first half as Paradise, so he was presumably an adventurer of the New World, since those that have traveled there all end up calling the earlier half as such. While newbies like Kreig went scurrying back. (Albeit partially because of a certain swordsman floating in wait)

My hope is that we see the force field concept again. It would be cool to see... I really liked the concept. It could be that it is a very high-tier technique.

As to Akainu... why are we saying that has been retconned? What happened has been explained by Katakuri's entire character. He was just doing what Kata does, morph away from the blows. That explains why he appeared to be hit but was not hurt. We see Katakuri do this exact thing many times. It would be no surprise that an Admiral could perform the same feat. Maybe he almost didn't manage, hence his statement "Damn Haki users".

It would also explain it if Ace could do the same, given his fight with me. Poor fool hadn't gotten hit in years. But he lost control of his CoO. That's why I mentioned his brother. I already knew they were relatives. 'Cuz he talked about it before. By aggrivating his emotions, I did to poor Ace what Luffy accidentally did to Katakuri by exposing his shames (donut fetish and evil teeth). Zehahahaha! Nothin I do is without meaning! Zehahahah!

who was it that called the first half of the grand line paradise? don Krieg or Zeff? I mean at the beginning of the manga...

As far as the force field thing, I have been waiting for that since they introduced haki! it almost seems like its a secret technique that only the marines know, which would be very interesting!

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

My thought was that Haki blooms out of desperate combat and reliance on willpower as a trigger for initial awakening, similar to how we see Luffy using his COC in dire situations without even realizing. Coby likewise achieved access to his COO after sustaining enough war trauma. It seems like this goes against the principles of rokushiki. By becoming naturally superhuman through reliance on purely physical means, practioners don't ever really make use of Haki or come into the conditions to trigger it.

It's a flawed idea, but it would help explain why none of CP9 apparently could use it. It would please me to know that the martial art was like a train choosing between two tracks. So they never switched or had need to, even when faced with overwhelming opponents, because the training automatically deviated how Haki is utilized.

For instance, Kame. It allows the users to avoid attacks similar to COO for dodging purposes, but it is not in fact COO, something else entirely. So it therefore would be the first instinctive thing to do for a Rokushiki user. Similar moves like Soru, especially Soru, would further exacerbate this reliance on physical prowess instead of willpower concentration on listening.

Then we have Tekkai. If you are trying to naturally, as much as wuxia martial arts superpowers can be "natural", gain iron skin, I could see where Rokushiki instructor would actually try to avoid training a CP9 agent-to-be in COA, or Hardening specifically. If they just use Willpower, then their bodies won't gain that natural iron-ification skill that is Tekkai. And since anyone can learn COA, but apparently very few can learn Tekkai, it could be argued that the former is harder to obtain. Which makes sense. It's easier to gain willpower than to alter one's body to be superhuman, even in the OP universe. Otherwise Nami and Ussop would've done something by now to make themselves as strong as Zoro, for defensive means if nothing else. (Indeed, it is possible that Zoro is as durable as he is because he naturally uses a mobile version of Tekkai that the wolf-CP9 agent used. That would help with suspending disbelief in regards to his impossible feats, like having buildings crush him and then get up afterwards, or surviving such terrible sword-cuts. But I digress)

So for training, the CP9 were to learn the martial art first, without using willpower (Haki) as a crutch. Then they could master Haki as it comes to them naturally. None of the agents we saw were particularly old, and Lucci, Kaku and Kalifla are still young enough to be in their twenties, no? Seems that they would be introduced to Haki as needed, same as they did not receive devil fruits until it was considered a good idea to increase combat power in their ranks.

Another thought: martial arts training will involve willpower, obviously, in real life and presumably in OP Rokushiki. And Haki is also will based, but is expendable. It could well be that training both would deplete a person of their willpower/spirit and leave them too exhausted to improve rapidly. With Rokushiki it may be that is not good enough. Rapid and incredible conditions must be met.

Case in point, Sanji: he learned Geppou, but only while running from his worst nightmare. Worst nightmare, literally (other than all women spontaniously turning into Okama-baka). Imagine the desperation involved! Now just think of training as a child in all six forms through such desperate training. It requires intense concentration, which is linked to willpower. One would have a hard time doing both. And so they trained in Rokushiki, which requires harder and seemingly longer physical duress, leaving out the mental training or whatever normal non-MC character people have to do to unlock it.

Ah, I wonder if Brooke will be used to frighten Orochi. That would be an option. Then indeed he would be MVP again.

This doesn't apply to CoA as it requires extreme training to be able to utilise it. Unlike CoC and certain variations of CoO that requires a trigger event.

I have to say your distinguishing between Haki and Rokushiki is splendidly done.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 10, 2019, Original Post Date: Feb 10, 2019 ---

who was it that called the first half of the grand line paradise? don Krieg or Zeff? I mean at the beginning of the manga...

As far as the force field thing, I have been waiting for that since they introduced haki! it almost seems like its a secret technique that only the marines know, which would be very interesting!

I disagree as Rayleigh did the same in his first lesson to Luffy on Haki so not secret to Marine operatives only.

 

[Admiral Teach]

My point about CoA is mainly that it is a strengthening that has nothing to do with physical power but will power. Whereas Tekkai appeared limitless, more or less, and was a physical hardening of the body. So training one should not assist in the training of the other, no matter how much they would compliment. So it would make sense that no CP9 would have acquired Haki through obtaining it, and would likely never do so because their willpower wouldn't be what they would focus on for defense.

There is that scenario where Rayleigh explains Haki to Luffy, and he did use that force field pulse technique. Perhaps Luffy knows about it but is just not at the stage where he can use it. Katakuri's Armament was still superior to Luffy, and there is no indication. Luffy broke that threshhold beating him. And considering his lack of precognition, he didn't reach Katakuri level CoO either. Would be interesting if the field projection is definitely something only top-tiers would do. Though it looks like Oda for now simply pretends it never happened. not a good choice. Nothing so far about Haki renders what he did with the force fields obsolete or contradictory. He should just incorperate it and give rules for it so we understand the nuances better. Well, we can hope... I was kind of hoping somebody would have used it in Wano by now, if ever we were going to see it again.

Then, an Admiral might pop up and deflect a big ranged attack suddenly. In which case I will agree that it is a secret technique the Marines teach, and Reyleigh just happens to know it as an exception. And Luffy would be far too much a novice to learn, given only top tiers use it. (And Sentomaru claimed he had the strongest defense in the world. Could be he is the master of CoA like Katakuri seems to be with CoO. So it would still be consistent with why Luffy has not once tried to force-field against opponents, so far as I know.)

Although maybe he did it at Fishman Island and we just don't remember? I try to forget that arc, honestly... and avoid reading it whenever possible.

 

[McNuss]

This statement is somehow wrong. Why?
Lucci is obviously stronger than smoker, but luffy could never touch smoker pre TS. Why?? Because of DF adv.
If Lucci had logia fruit like admirals, then I’m 90% sure he’ll be admiral level.

What makes you think that? Smoker easily caught Luffy in Marineford, the Luffy that can use Gears and already beat up Lucci fair and square. Smoker is actually hella fast, remember how Luffy set the ground on fire just to keep up with him in Punk Hazard? Smoker's Logia advantage never really mattered Pre-Ts, since he has a Seastone Jutte and is fast enough to catch Luffy with it.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

What makes you think that? Smoker easily caught Luffy in Marineford, the Luffy that can use Gears and already beat up Lucci fair and square. Smoker is actually hella fast, remember how Luffy set the ground on fire just to keep up with him in Punk Hazard? Smoker's Logia advantage never really mattered Pre-Ts, since he has a Seastone Jutte and is fast enough to catch Luffy with it.

The only reason Luffy couldn't defeat Smoker back then was bcos he couldn't touch him. Remember you can't beat an opponent you can't touch.
Plus Smoker had his DF intangibility advantage not to mention the sea stone jute (another huge advantage) he had with him. Remove those things from him and he would have lost easily to pre TS Luffy.
He never got to taste a basic Luffy punch for once so props to Lucci who tanked some G2 and 3 punches before going down.

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

The only reason Luffy couldn't defeat Smoker back then was bcos he couldn't touch him. Remember you can't beat an opponent you can't touch.
Plus Smoker had his DF intangibility advantage not to mention the sea stone jute (another huge advantage) he had with him. Remove those things from him and he would have lost easily to pre TS Luffy.
He never got to taste a basic Luffy punch for once so props to Lucci who tanked some G2 and 3 punches before going down.

Thank you. Someone that sees what I tried to explain.... post time skip Smoker seemed easily overwhelmed by Luffy and mashed up by Doffy

 

[thedude]

What I found interesting is that there is a reference to a "secret to fighting devil fruit users" in Baratie, since that is one reason for why Don Kreig targeted Zeff. He thought the man knew the secret, which he presumably would for having been a successful Grand Line pirate. He even referred to the first half as Paradise, so he was presumably an adventurer of the New World, since those that have traveled there all end up calling the earlier half as such. While newbies like Kreig went scurrying back. (Albeit partially because of a certain swordsman floating in wait)

My hope is that we see the force field concept again. It would be cool to see... I really liked the concept. It could be that it is a very high-tier technique.

As to Akainu... why are we saying that has been retconned? What happened has been explained by Katakuri's entire character. He was just doing what Kata does, morph away from the blows. That explains why he appeared to be hit but was not hurt. We see Katakuri do this exact thing many times. It would be no surprise that an Admiral could perform the same feat. Maybe he almost didn't manage, hence his statement "Damn Haki users".

It would also explain it if Ace could do the same, given his fight with me. Poor fool hadn't gotten hit in years. But he lost control of his CoO. That's why I mentioned his brother. I already knew they were relatives. 'Cuz he talked about it before. By aggrivating his emotions, I did to poor Ace what Luffy accidentally did to Katakuri by exposing his shames (donut fetish and evil teeth). Zehahahaha! Nothin I do is without meaning! Zehahahah!

I think you are shortselling Katakuri here. From what we know about him, his CoA is unique. Trying to say now that Akainu is as good as he is at that technique, and that's why he wasn't cut seems to be retconning what happened. The most logical answer to why Akainu wasn't killed was, Oda changed haki, which was very ill defined prior to the time skip.

One another topic, I wonder why Oda made Kaido and Big Mom basically unhurtable. White Beard could be damaged with normal attacks. We've seen Black Beard hurt by Luffy from plain old Gear 2. I'm reasonably certain that Shanks doesn't have an iron body. So it's curious why he made these two seemingly unhurtable monsters. Honestly, story telling wise it really boxes him in when it comes to defeating them.

 

[Admiral Teach]

Do you have proof Akainu suffered actual damage? Or that Katakuri's Haki is truly unique? The Admirals are among the greatest combatants in the OP universe. The explanation may have come later and through development of the concept, but... it fits. Saying an Admiral, an entity superior to Katakuri in both rank and general combat power, is not short-selling at all. If anything it should bolster his resume to lay claim to abilities par with one of the world's dominant powers.

For Big Mom and Kaido, it actually makes a certain amount of sense for the world building. The political status is one of a stalemate. It would make sense the pirates making up that stalemate were untouchable by the government. Though indeed, the idea of making them both invincible was not a good one plot-wise. Not unless some interesting emotional solutions are already in place. For both it seems so. Big Mom is now suffering Amnesia, and has plenty of psychological baggage. Kaido wants to die. There seems to be room for character-based resolutions to their lives, rather than just getting struck down by the main character's rubbery fist.

Or my dark one while their backs are turned, zehaha.

 

[thedude]

i just find it uninteresting because they are the only characters like that. We saw that White Beard could be hurt by fucking Squadro, lol. I prefer protagonists and enemies who are a little more vulnerable. Blackbeard is a great example. He not only gets hurt, he gets hurt more than a normal person! Now that is interesting. Or Shanks, who is regular human size, and lost an arm! And he's still a Yonko! That is interesting. But Big Mom and Kaido? "Giant and iron like skin, cannot be hurt unless x, y and z conditions are met". That to me, at least for now, is boring.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

Nah its just the Yonkousystem dude.

Whitebeard/Blackbeard = strongest DF user
Kaido = strongest attack
Big Mom = strongest Def
Shanks = strongest Haki

Kaidou did get hurt by Luffy, but it wasnt nearly enough. So his Def is under BM.
BM did punch Luffy, which he blocked... but with Kaidou... instant KO.

 

[LaGOAT]

If zoro beat king in a 1v1 situation does mean the wholeentire time he was yonko commander lvl

 

[Pirate Queen]

If zoro beat king in a 1v1 situation does mean the wholeentire time he was yonko commander lvl

Potential* to be Yonko Commander level

And we all know that, yes.

Zoro will likely have to grow and struggle throughout the fight like Luffy did against Katakuri .

But if he no diff's King? Yeah lol, considering his performance in Dressrosa I highly doubt t it.

(Cue the angry Zoro haters!) Lol, just speaking truth

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 11, 2019, Original Post Date: Feb 11, 2019 ---

Nah its just the Yonkousystem dude.

Whitebeard/Blackbeard = strongest DF user
Kaido = strongest attack
Big Mom = strongest Def
Shanks = strongest Haki

Kaidou did get hurt by Luffy, but it wasnt nearly enough. So his Def is under BM.
BM did punch Luffy, which he blocked... but with Kaidou... instant KO.

Well said