Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.
It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.
For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.
As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.
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By Moe's logic, Shanks defeated (easily) Kaido, during the Impel Down Arc when Kaido attempted to attack WB from saving Ace. Who shows up in MF one day later? Shanks. Therefore, Shanks (off screen) defeated Kaido, because Kaido was not shown in MF.
When and how this relates that? Dude your not putting a good front for yourself and not making good argument on your side either. That situation is different compare to this one.
Sanji didn't beat Page One because he was faster than Page One or stronger. That wasn't even a fight. It was target practice. If it were a fight, there'd have been an exchange between Sanji and Page One, there wasn't. If Sanji only defeats opponents because they can't see him, then it doesn't prove he's a stronger, better, faster or more durable fighter.
It only makes us question how Sanji would fare if he actually fought the way he did pre-skip and prior to Page One. We couldn't even say that Sanji would have defeated Page One without the Raid Suit. The Raid Suit in essence undermines his strength.
This is just an assumption. No one knows how Sanji defeated PO and so far few things suggest he even bothered using invisibility. In that fight he only used this ability once and unintentionally. Mind you pre-timeskip Sanji deemed Absalom's invisibility a cowardly way of fighting.
Do you see Page One around? He beat him off-screen either from that diving attack or off-screen one. Page would have cause trouble by now and Sanji would tell them if he didn't went down at all. So far none of these are happening, so Page is down as he would have done something by now.
But how do you know Sanji didn't use haki or Diable Jambe or any other powerful attacks? As far as I recall, you made those claims, but the manga doesn't show that. It shows Sanji kicking down Page One, and the next time we see Sanji is with Franky, Law, and Usopp.
I'm not asking whether Page is down or not, I'm asking what move Sanji used to beat him. In any case, the Raid Suit is a powerup. If it enhances his speed, it also enhances his kicking power.
f you actually took the time to read what I was saying instead of getting defensive simply because Sanji is your favourite character, my point is Oda has treated Sanji badly.
Wrong again, Sanji isn't my favorite character, I'm just objective about him.
And the readers are treating Sanji even worse with ludicrous statements such as him being the cause of Sun Pirates and Germa 66 potentially being captured by Big Mom or his cake failing to do the job.
Nope, he was practically one shot by Joker. Yes, it's his ability. He easily bound Sanji. The fight didn't even last a minute, and Sanji would have died had Law not saved him.
Joker let him attack, bound him, and was about to land the killing blow. That was easily Joker's easiest fight in the entire Dressrosa arc. He treated Sanji like fodder.
Nope, he was not one-shot by Doflamingo. Again, Luffy vs. Bellamy in their second match on Jaya is the definition of one-shot; Bellamy went down in one attack or one hit while Doflamingo had to bind up Sanji before he could do anything.
He defeated an opponent that couldn't see him. Anyone can hit an opponent that can't see them.
Why couldn't he be seen? because of the Raid Suit that he was given from a group of people that think he's weak and useless.
Sanji didn't beat Page One because he was faster than Page One or stronger. That wasn't even a fight. It was target practice. If it were a fight, there'd have been an exchange between Sanji and Page One, there wasn't. If Sanji only defeats opponents because they can't see him, then it doesn't prove he's a stronger, better, faster or more durable fighter.
It only makes us question how Sanji would fare if he actually fought the way he did pre-skip and prior to Page One. We couldn't even say that Sanji would have defeated Page One without the Raid Suit. The Raid Suit in essence undermines his strength.
If you took the time to read the whole thing, you'd see this was addressed at Moe, and it was asking HOW, not that he beat him, as Moe suggested few pages ago that Sanji beat Page One without haki, DJ, or whatnot. As far as I recall, we were never told or shown how Sanji beat Page One, just that he beat him.
Nope, you're wrong. I did say he got injured in the explosion in my previous posts if you actually took the time to read instead of make baseless assumptions.
I see no baseless assumption on my end. I read what you said. Did Sanji break his bone from the explosion? Because as far as I recall, he broke it fighting Vergo, which ultimately is a pointless thing to bring up when Sanji was still moving and running like nothing happened. You're the one who brought up Sanji breaking his bone, and that's connected to Vergo. Your picture does not show Sanji's leg bone breaking.
You also forgot Sanji's body being beaten up while Nami was occupying it, as Sanji was confused at how Nami's one punch messed up his body. This happened before he fought Vergo as well.
@Hannibal Psyche
I agree with some of your comments, in fact i had stated the same thing always, Sanji is only slightly weaker than Zoro given how their opponents are always ranked.
I also agree with the Raid suit part. I just hate it, specially since he himself acknowledged it. But thats just a matter of opinon. If swords can make Zoro stronger, then Sanji getting an upgrade isn't unfair, but it is poor to show he gets that upgrade from the people he despises the most.
I still wanna see Sanji giveaway the raidsuit to Franky and see if he can make it work for Nami. Let that Raid Suit just be a one time gag only.
What partially disagree is with is the part with Doflamingo. Law and only Law could've known what that move would've done. Yes, it would've one shot Sanji, but you could say the same with anyone else. Only Law truly knows the strength of Doflamingo. Also, its unfair to keep bringing up battles that didnt happen.
I see no baseless assumption on my end. I read what you said. Did Sanji break his bone from the explosion? Because as far as I recall, he broke it fighting Vergo, which ultimately is a pointless thing to bring up when Sanji was still moving and running like nothing happened. You're the one who brought up Sanji breaking his bone, and that's connected to Vergo. Your picture does not show Sanji's leg bone breaking.
Well said, I dont know why people keep bringing up Vergo for cases like this. First of all, Vergo was 2nd only to Doflamingo and is probably way stronger than Pica. And it was barely a fight.
Usually intentionally, especially when I say "irrelevant."
In my experience, HP usually has a habit of refusing to accept other possibilities he does not like and either sticks to one possibility (a la Luffy beating Big Mom in the previous arc) or will twist manga statement or even people he's arguing with to suit what he wants and refuses to acknowledge there are other possibilities, like Luffy not fighting Big Mom given Cracker was a tough one for Luffy to beat.
Well said, I dont know why people keep bringing up Vergo for cases like this. First of all, Vergo was 2nd only to Doflamingo and is probably way stronger than Pica. And it was barely a fight.
It seems to back up their point, no matter how flimsy the evidence is. The fight was short, and all Sanji said were that he could be in trouble if the fight continued longer and that his bone broke, but he ran like that fight never happened, and we've seen the Straw Hats get stronger when pushed into a corner.
And no one would disagree that Sanji would have lost to Doflamingo. In fact, most characters would have unless they had a way to avoid or get out of Doflamingo's string binds. I don't think we've seen Sanji really go all out either, so it's hard to tell if he could have hurt Vergo.
But how do you know Sanji didn't use haki or Diable Jambe or any other powerful attacks? As far as I recall, you made those claims, but the manga doesn't show that. It shows Sanji kicking down Page One, and the next time we see Sanji is with Franky, Law, and Usopp.
I'm not asking whether Page is down or not, I'm asking what move Sanji used to beat him. In any case, the Raid Suit is a powerup. If it enhances his speed, it also enhances his kicking power.
Well already we saw Sanji easily kicking PO hurting and pushing him down easily with un-named attacks to cause him to scream in pain, so if he hollowing in pain from that, if he were to hit harder, could be a knockout for sure and probably him using a named attack, Haki, and DF would be overkill. I never said I knew how he was taken down, but it's more likely it was least effort move he did and not his full power since he was already easily pushing him back even without RS.
It is for more so Durability at best and invisibility, but attack power and speed are still his own though.
Guys just stop arguing with KingMoe. When it comes to Sanji, he can't think clearly and only uses emotions rather facts or references or citations or pages, just like any other sane person would. He infers and keeps imagining things in his head that has not been shown in the manga but he KNOWS for sure it has happened because he himself knows how Oda works. He berates others on how much they hate Sanji, yet he is doing the same for ZoLo and his own fanboy-ism clouds his judgement. Moe take a deep breathe and start using references on the actual manga, NOT what you believe. We have proven you wrong on so many levels, yet you won't listen to reason. It is sad to be honest. Even more depressing when you actually said that Sanji with RS can defeat both Doffy and Jimbei as of right now. Even more when you think he will match up against King or Queen, top YC level. I might take you seriously if you had said Sanji vs. Jack, maybe, but let's see. You believe Sanji vs. King because Sanji "easily" defeated P1, okay how about this.
Sanji clearly says he felt a little pain with the suit on, so by this I can clearly infer that Sanji could have not as easily defeated P1 as you say he did.
Next, did you ever think, hey maybe P1 was the weakest among the 6 FF, and that there might be a stronger 6 FF leader, who might actually fight Sanji, and not just straight jump up to YC level (Jack), much less high YC level (King). I've told you so many times, that nobody but you thinks that Sanji will fight King, no where and I mean no where does it show that Sanji will match up against King in the future. Do i think ZoLo will fight King or a YC, yeah maybe Jack, but not King. I don't think ZoLo is at the level or will be at the level of High YC. And him fighting Orochi, I doubt it as well, Orochi seems weak and maybe Kinemon might fight him.
Also, I seriously doubt Luffy will be strong enough to fight Kaido in this arc. Maybe Luffy, Kid, Law, and some others might match up agaisnt Kaido, but 1v1 is highly impossible. Luffy got one-shotted in G4 from Kaido and you think by the end of this arc he will fight him in a 1v1, please use some sense.
You guys got to learn to accept others opinons instead of attacking those who chooses to praise Sanji and you going all mob-like which is suspicious after the Zoro chapter when on his 'performance'. You guys are the only one coming at me with your emotions while I am being come and telling you the facts. I am not the only one talking you this way as M3J, Lexus, and Pea are speaking out on this too. It has nothing to do with hate as I talking you guys on the truth even with ZoLo which you are referring to hate when I like the character, just the fans I have issues with on how they handle him and demeen others thinking he is 'greatest' when he isn't.
Prove what wrong? You prove nothing but show biased on your side as well the others. You do realize the characters get stronger every arc, right? What make think Sanji won't eventuality reach there? He already beaten PO so he is on his way up there and what has Jimbei shown he can be stronger than Sanji? Who has he defeated NW? No one! Until then, he is not stronger than Sanji nor Monster Trio. Reread the arc as it's heavily hinted Sanji could face YC especially he defeated T6H and need more of a challenge over the arc, so who better than YC with King or Queen especially it heavily hinted with their personalities are like Sanji and Zoro when they argue.
Ummm...If it wasn't easy, how did Sanji escape unscathed? For him to beat him and not get even one scratch shows that especially since each of his un-named kick damage him badly without Sanji trying and was more testing the suit. Another thing, where you get the evidence he is the 'weakest' you got prove of that? As show for there is no hierarchy of the members as they don't address each other about it especially between Page and Drake, so it hints more they don't obey one another and only the YC and Kaido above them.
Dude let stop with your hate and just let it goes just because you don't want seeing Sanji getting more shine better than ZoLo. Luffy is gonna face Kaido and of course with help and Sanji will face either King or Queen as well. Can't compare YC to an Yonko at same lvl. ZoLo look is gonna face Orochi as you see how his side is going especially with Hiyori. You can try to denied this all you want, but plotline is heading the direction, so trying to denied it is embarrassing as your acting on emotions than true facts about it.
@Hannibal Psyche
I agree with some of your comments, in fact i had stated the same thing always, Sanji is only slightly weaker than Zoro given how their opponents are always ranked.
I also agree with the Raid suit part. I just hate it, specially since he himself acknowledged it. But thats just a matter of opinon. If swords can make Zoro stronger, then Sanji getting an upgrade isn't unfair, but it is poor to show he gets that upgrade from the people he despises the most.
I still wanna see Sanji giveaway the raidsuit to Franky and see if he can make it work for Nami. Let that Raid Suit just be a one time gag only.
What partially disagree is with is the part with Doflamingo. Law and only Law could've known what that move would've done. Yes, it would've one shot Sanji, but you could say the same with anyone else. Only Law truly knows the strength of Doflamingo. Also, its unfair to keep bringing up battles that didnt happen.
Not really, Sanji given more stronger enemies than Zoro ever gotten and he still hold his own more compare to Zoro especially in this latest chapter, it proves more Sanji can handle himself more than Zoro as we can never said Sanji ever fainted in his fights. He struggle and hold his own, but mostly hold back or interruption out of it.
You do realize he uses RS more so for disguise and spying than for sake of power and lacking. Many don't see that as they know Sanji is strong on his own, but of course he is smart fighter and he know what he is doing with the suit. Also the situation is same with Zoro with Mihawk. How you think it feel for Zoro asking his enemy who gave him a life-threatening scar on his chest and beg him to train him. It's about putting pride aside for those you hate for better, not because you accept they are right. Sanji made it clear he still hates it and being refer as Germa which is why he is asking Franky and Usopp to modify it so not to show it. Nothing says his hate is now gone or he easily forgive them. He didn't, that's from your guys observation than reading the actual context as he said clearly.
How can I understand your words when you don't lay them out well. You speaking like...(ah... Never mind).
Here's why I called you up to back your statement:
You said "Heck he even bested RS Yonji and Niji despite they are able to damage high-tier enemies" implying that Sanji defeated them while they were armed with their RS which never happened hence my response;
"Show me a panel where he bested them in their Raid Suit."
Then you ignored that and started talking about an off-screened fight.
WTH?
Everyone knows Sanji should be able to defeat his siblings with their RS off. They are weaklings after all (all them Vinsmokes).
Without RS they're nothing with only a hard exoskeleton to show off. Just look at them at the tea party. They admitted they could do nothing without the suit.
Hence my conclusion that if RS gave these weaklings so much boost combat wise that they can go from 0 to hero. Then it is clear why Sanji also got one even after claiming he wanted nothing to do with them and their tech (not the first time bright boy disappointed us).
But if it'll cover the lack of power Oda has shown us he's lacking post TS (HP, Nik and others are correct for pointing that out), I'm in.
Seriously Moe, it's not about bringing Sanji down or anything low key like that, it's just how the writer has portrayed him in the latter half of the Series (knowing you, you might not see it that way though). But don't worry, he'll start to shine soon. Very soon I believe.
Hail the RS! Hail our boy Sanji!
I did lay them out, but like the others are saying, your ignoring my points for yours to be right.
How to show a fight when Sanji vs Yonji (RS) was off-screened. It was literally shown off-screen. Your asking the impossible and using it as a way to say I am wrong when your hurting yourself as it was shown like that in the series. Your denying it yourself and whether on-screen or not, Yonji was hurt enough he was knock down and needed medical treatment to remove the things around his head from his hit. Go find it if you don't believe that encounter wasn't off-screen, but they did show what happened to Yonji after he fought him.
He can defeat them both on and off, but they aren't that weak off either too. They can use their abilities even off, but that doesn't change the fact Sanji is strongest sibling both without and with RS. I get the reason why he have RS, but it's not a major power up as it doesn't really increase his attack power. Does he get lasers, new element, etc.? No, just invisibility and more durability at best. His attack and speed is still his own as he is train to fight without it more than using it more and that won't ever change.
Kinda hard to take your side when you guys first bash him and then say your reasons, if you would have be more fair and understanding, then I could agree with you and you wouldn't be getting it by others like M3J, Pea, and Lexus saying their peace and countering their own too. He already shining, but somehow you guys are like 'We didn't see the fight! So Page never got beaten!' What is this?! Are you guys new to the series? Just because a fight is off-screen doesn't mean it didn't happen. BB vs Ace happened off-screen and we didn't see the results later, Germa Siblings defeated BMP off-screen and we didn't see it, Reverie right now is having off-screen moments, so we gonna say none of the stuff happening with Sabo and Commanders of RA vs Admirals? Off-screen is apparent in OP. It's not gonna stop and doesn't take away what happened.
We been through several pages with no PO. If he was active, he would have cause trouble right now as he was already when attacking Soba owners. Since it been quiet since about him, he is defeated like Sanji said he did especially more proof with Drake and Hawkins being more active and Drake wanting to go after Sanji more angrily. Why you think he is like that? That mean he saw PO defeated as he called them to his position and they saw what happened to him. No matter how you slice it, it all points he is down and out. Stop using the excuse saying 'PO is still active! Sanji ranaway!'. Make you guys look biased and immature on not admitting the deed is done and plus Sanji is a good person and would have told his friends if he didn't do it.
Why would he keep quiet if he never did? So yeah I get were you want to say, but your coming at wrong direction and attitude. Please understand our stance more and get why it's not as bad for Sanji as you guys try to enforce here.
Well already we saw Sanji easily kicking PO hurting and pushing him down easily with un-named attacks to cause him to scream in pain, so if he hollowing in pain from that, if he were to hit harder, could be a knockout for sure and probably him using a named attack, Haki, and DF would be overkill. I never said I knew how he was taken down, but it's more likely it was least effort move he did and not his full power since he was already easily pushing him back even without RS.
It is for more so Durability at best and invisibility, but attack power and speed are still his own though.
Yeah but also OP physics. Luffy stretches his hands back for more speed, which means more power in his punches. I mean, there's a reason why speeding is frowned upon - the faster you go the worse the collision will usually be. Same here with Sanji's raid suit.
Yeah but also OP physics. Luffy stretches his hands back for more speed, which means more power in his punches. I mean, there's a reason why speeding is frowned upon - the faster you go the worse the collision will usually be. Same here with Sanji's raid suit.
It's hard to establish just how much faster Sanji has gotten with the suit, since he was one hell of a fast guy even before that. He could easily cover fairly long distances in a matter of milliseconds (and do a couple of things along the way) as was shown in the scene where he saved Lola's sister (dam it memory, work!).
He was always praised for his speed by the crew. He's assumingly as fast as fishmen are underwater. To me personally, RS with it's enhancements is more of an energy saver than a legit power up (except for its defense of course). Like he can use skywalk just fine, why even bother using that flying technology implemented in the suit?
That's why I hope Franky/Usopp will not just change the appearance of the RS but also ditch a couple of unnecessary features.
But the acceleration device would make him even faster, which is still a power-up if it helps him go beyond what he's capable of. Would the flotation device help him maneuver better than skywalk in the air? in any case, Sanji probably won't use the suit a lot. He only broke it out against Page One to stay under disguise and so no one would know how he really looks like.
Yo Moe. This was what you said that made me think of a title for ya: "He didn't even defeat PO with DJ, Haki, or named techniques for one, so he has a lot more to show and more stuff he never reveal before."
Hence, you supposedly knew what Sanji did and didn't do in an off-screened fight and how he defeated Page One. You aren't just heavily implying here you are claiming Page One wasn't defeated by strong attacks from Sanji but what, weak ones? (Don't worry I won't put words in your mouth).
Meanwhile, the rest of us are left in the dark on how the fight went. This is what I think @M3J is calling you out for when he said: "you acted as if you knew how he was taken down or that it was a manga fact."
So do humour us Moe. Take us to that fantasy logic and facts world of yours.
Which is why I said the suit gives it's users abilities they lack (or better).
1) Speed – In Sanji's case more speed, since he's fast but much slower than someone in a Raid Suit.
This is apparent in the WCI arc when Sanji was trying to escape with Luffy. He couldn't run fast enough, neither could he fly fast enough until his siblings aided him with their gears mocking his abilities in the process.
2) Durability and Endurance – Bullets, fires, and average offensive attacks cannot harm the suit providing successful shielding to it's users.
Imagine Sanji took Page One's hit directly without the Raid Suit (even with the suit he still felt mild pain).
3) Special abilities – In Sanji's case Invisibility, an advantage both on and off-field.
4) Attack abilities – All of Sanji's siblings have some effective attack abilities derived from their Raid Suit. Since Sanji is still new with his suit. I'm psyched to see what new attacking abilities he'll be granted if he continues to rely on the suit.
In essence, I don't think Sanji will have much choice than to rely on Germa tech in the battles to come. He really needs the power boost.
Yo Moe. This was what you said that made me think of a title for ya: "He didn't even defeat PO with DJ, Haki, or named techniques for one, so he has a lot more to show and more stuff he never reveal before."
Hence, you supposedly knew what Sanji did and didn't do in an off-screened fight and how he defeated Page One. You aren't just heavily implying here you are claiming Page One wasn't defeated by strong attacks from Sanji but what, weak ones? (Don't worry I won't put words in your mouth).
Meanwhile, the rest of us are left in the dark on how the fight went. This is what I think @M3J is calling you out for when he said: "you acted as if you knew how he was taken down or that it was a manga fact."
So do humour us Moe. Take us to that fantasy logic and facts world of yours.
Did you see him using DJ, Haki, or named techinques each time he hit him? Cause he didn't. Each time it hit, was just unnamed attack, so it's hinting more to that and even if he did, it be a simple move, not a 100% full power move since he wasn't out of breath or sweaty from his fight as he finish it pretty quickly like he said he did.
Never said I knew exactly what happened, I said heavily implied to happen by evidence around it. Your the one stating I know everything when I said implied. There is a difference between knowing and stating something by implying. Also wouldn't call them 'weak' if they were strong enough to make him scream in pain and push him back easily. Though it's clearly not his full power each time with those hits as I stated above on what else he has in his arsenal on what he can do.
Idk where you guys think I know everything when I am saying what was implied to happen as you look how the fight was before off-screen and you see Sanji later and he is unscathed and not even tired from the fight or even has a scratch. Everything is pointing to a low-diffed nature out of it. It's not me fantasizing or making false claims, it showing on how the conditions is afterwards especially Sanji promising to meet on requirements by Law on what he must do before coming back to them for the fight. It was heavily emphasized, so with that it all points he easily beaten him and most likely didn't use much to take him out.
Your the only one talking out saying it's 'fantasy' when it's already shown and done. Again, take your headcannon somewhere if you can't admit fault when it been shown. not only one stating this to you.
Please quote yourself saying heavily implied prior to this moment. Go on...
Why am I not surprised? It wouldn't be the first time you are bending the truth for your case.
An earlier example was this statement of yours:
"They can be still be strong and beaten by someone and well Luffy is going to face Kaido one on one no matter what"
Here was my response:
"...We don't know if Luffy's going to take on Kaido one on one, I wouldn't go on saying it won't happen for sure but it's leaning towards a group effort right from day one. Kidd already stated he'd bring Kaido down (even though he's usually all talk). So is Luffy, and I'm betting Law.
Neither one of them is capable of doing it alone going by their current feats so I feel it'll most likely be more than one vs Kaido.
Feel free to fantasise though... It might as well come true."
Here's your follow up: "who said Luffy faces him one on one? I said many times on the thread Kidd and Law will fight with him, but Luffy probably get most of the fighting in similar with Doflamingo fight"
When you make a mistake, it's okay to admit not deny that you said or didn't say something.
Please quote yourself saying heavily implied prior to this moment. Go on...
Why am I not surprised? It wouldn't be the first time you are bending the truth for your case.
An earlier example was this statement of yours:
"They can be still be strong and beaten by someone and well Luffy is going to face Kaido one on one no matter what"
Here was my response:
"...We don't know if Luffy's going to take on Kaido one on one, I wouldn't go on saying it won't happen for sure but it's leaning towards a group effort right from day one. Kidd already stated he'd bring Kaido down (even though he's usually all talk). So is Luffy, and I'm betting Law.
Neither one of them is capable of doing it alone going by their current feats so I feel it'll most likely be more than one vs Kaido.
Feel free to fantasise though... It might as well come true."
Here's your follow up: "who said Luffy faces him one on one? I said many times on the thread Kidd and Law will fight with him, but Luffy probably get most of the fighting in similar with Doflamingo fight"
When you make a mistake, it's okay to admit not deny that you said or didn't say something.
Bending what and what wrong? I said it be like Doflamingo fight where he get help at first by Kidd and Law, but soon gonna be more one on one at the end of it as Luffy is the type of guy who like to fight more alone to rely on help too much.
I will admit that I did confuse my talk there, but it doesn't take away Luffy is still going after Kaido regardless in the end.
Your the only one disagree on what Oda is trying to do as he said Luffy will face Kaido like it or not. Seem more like your fantasy to be denial than admit your side when your wrong as at least I can when I mistake my talk a bit.
Bending what and what wrong? I said it be like Doflamingo fight where he get help at first by Kidd and Law, but soon gonna be more one on one at the end of it as Luffy is the type of guy who like to fight more alone to rely on help too much.
I will admit that I did confuse my talk there, but it doesn't take away Luffy is still going after Kaido regardless in the end.
Your the only one disagree on what Oda is trying to do as he said Luffy will face Kaido like it or not. Seem more like your fantasy to be denial than admit your side when your wrong as at least I can when I mistake my talk a bit.
Perhaps you don't read your own comments well before you post them never mind others'.
Props to you for admitting your mistake but then you come at me with a ridiculous claim.
If Luffy doesn't fight Kaido who will?
I've always maintained my stance that Luffy will battle Kaido and hopefully defeat him but not alone so I don't get where you are coming from really. You want to hold me on something I didn't say?
Are you a corrupt cop or something? (*Joking)
This is just an assumption. No one knows how Sanji defeated PO and so far few things suggest he even bothered using invisibility. In that fight he only used this ability once and unintentionally. Mind you pre-timeskip Sanji deemed Absalom's invisibility a cowardly way of fighting.
Whether or not he used it unintentionally is not really relevant. The point is invisibility is why he won or the reason why he got in those major attacks. It's the only reason Page One couldn't even defend himself.
I'm also not calling Sanji a coward. I'm simply saying the benefits of invisibility is a strong one. While Sanji was clearly stronger than Absalom, fact is it made hitting Sanji extremely easy. Even Luffy, Zoro and co. couldn't do much about Absalom when he appeared on their ship.
It's also not a mere assumption, there's a difference between simply assuming and an evidence based assumption. It's implied. Based on the fact that we don't see Page One after that fight and the fact they successfully escaped, it heavily implies that Sanji finished him.
But how do you know Sanji didn't use haki or Diable Jambe or any other powerful attacks? As far as I recall, you made those claims, but the manga doesn't show that. It shows Sanji kicking down Page One, and the next time we see Sanji is with Franky, Law, and Usopp.
If you actually read carefully, I never said Sanji didn't use Haki. He's only capable of using the invisible Haki, so it's very likely he did use it. There's no reason to not use it.
Point is based on what we saw, all of Sanji's hits on Page One are because Page One isn't aware of where Sanji is thanks to the Raid Suit:
Page One doesn't know where Sanji is because his Raid Suit had him vanish.
As Law clarifies, Sanji is not so fast that he can't be seen, his speed has never been regarded as notable. He can't be seen because of the Raid Suit offering him invisibility.
It's only because Page One can't see him that he's hit at all to begin with.
The moment Sanji is visible... he's thrown into a slew of buildings. None of Sanji's attacks had Page One flying as far as we saw.
Page One thinks he's won. He drops his guard. Sanji is in the air, and once again hits Page One who thinks he's somewhere lying on the ground.
Sanji landed no attacks because he was the better fighter or the faster fighter, he got all his hits in because the Raid Suit fooled the opponent into believing he'd substantially injured Sanji and that Sanji wasn't in the air. The credit for this win is not battle prowess, but the Raid Suit.
And the readers are treating Sanji even worse with ludicrous statements such as him being the cause of Sun Pirates and Germa 66 potentially being captured by Big Mom or his cake failing to do the job.
If you took the time to read the whole thing, you'd see this was addressed at Moe, and it was asking HOW, not that he beat him, as Moe suggested few pages ago that Sanji beat Page One without haki, DJ, or whatnot. As far as I recall, we were never told or shown how Sanji beat Page One, just that he beat him.
If you took the time to use common sense, I did know it was addressed to Moe given his named was referenced. It's a public forum, so I quoted it nonetheless. No rule about quoting people just because their name isn't in it, it's public and subject to quotation by anyone.
I see no baseless assumption on my end. I read what you said. Did Sanji break his bone from the explosion? Because as far as I recall, he broke it fighting Vergo, which ultimately is a pointless thing to bring up when Sanji was still moving and running like nothing happened. You're the one who brought up Sanji breaking his bone, and that's connected to Vergo. Your picture does not show Sanji's leg bone breaking.
Again, if you read carefully what I said, and what the Manga implied, he didn't break his bone simply because Vergo kicked him, he broke his bone because his body was already weakened by the explosion and then got kicked by Vergo powerfully in a state where his condition wasn't at its best.
Moving like nothing happened is irrelevant, and in fact, after the fight, he hobbled initially. Hobbling is what people do when they're in pain. Entire reason why the Navy officer asked if Sanji was okay was because he winced and hobbled, so you're already factually wrong here.
Most of the Monster Trio are capable of walking through pain. Doesn't mean he wasn't in pain or wasn't injured.
And in fact, if you read objectively, Sanji implied if that fight had gone on longer, he'd have been i trouble. You're not reading objectively. Vergo didn't even use Hardened Armament against Sanji and broke his shin bones. Vergo wasn't fighting with the full blunt of his powers.
You also forgot Sanji's body being beaten up while Nami was occupying it, as Sanji was confused at how Nami's one punch messed up his body. This happened before he fought Vergo as well.
Again, you clearly can't read properly because I did say Sanji's body was injured to begin with.
Poor job reading on your part.
If you read properly, my point was that Oda could simply have not even had Sanji injured from the explosion, it wasn't necessary. You're simply too defensive when it comes to Sanji to even realise when someone is even advocating better treatment for Sanji from Oda. The irony.
I personally think that Oda made a mistake with cracking Sanji's bones against Vergo. Why do it in the first place? No other reason than to make fun of Sanji since he never made anything out of that cracked bone.
Like pointed out, Usopp's body went through the same thing like Sanji's body so Sanji being weakened as a reason why his bones cracked is really meh.
There were other ways to show that Vergo is strong and to point out his toughness. Sanji could have screamed from pain like Luffy did against Katakuri's armament or he could have used expressions like Ugh, Uff or whatever signifies pain.
The character has been treated poorly, especially in WCI where he was being pushed around. Now I realize why Zoro wasn't part of that WCI team, Oda wouldn't put Zoro through such humiliations and pathetic scenes. Before anyone jumps on me with the faint scene, don't bother...
In Wano, pretty much everyone is a swordsman and whoever gets paired with Zoro will end up losing in a serious fight. Kaido is the only character that Zoro would lose against if he gets paired with him in 1vs1, the only one not being a swordsman. Zoro made a promise after losing to Mihawk that he would never lose again and that is meaning against anyone who calls himself a swordsman. Since he mostly will take on swordsmen in future it also may mean he will never lose at all but if he does I assume it will be against a non-swordsman.
Similar may apply to Sanji, whoever he gets paired with he will end up victorious but the big question is who will he get paired with. King? No freaking way, he will get sliced in half. Queen? Same thing, if those 2 swords on Queen's hips aren't just for show, besides, Queen may go down against Luffy, Kawamatsu, O-lin, Kidd?, Caribou?. Jack? If the beef with the Dukes is ignored and Jack is paired with Sanji, under the assumption that he won't use 1 weapon that he has left or the same plot element kicks in like in Luffy vs Katakuri, so Jack discards his weapons and fights Sanji barehanded. Even then, Oda needs to make it plausible since Sanji's kicks did nothing to PageOne except make him scream, no visible damage whatsoever and they were clean cheap shots that P1 didnt defend against, Jack tanked a chest slash from Shuttenmaru like it's nothing.
Sanji better starts shooting some freaking lasers out of that suit or I dont see how he will beat top dogs.
I also agree with the Raid suit part. I just hate it, specially since he himself acknowledged it. But thats just a matter of opinon. If swords can make Zoro stronger, then Sanji getting an upgrade isn't unfair, but it is poor to show he gets that upgrade from the people he despises the most.
I don't think it's unfair, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that Oda's having Sanji rely on something from Germa. I mean what stops Oda from having Sanji simply defeat Page One because he's faster than him?
It would look better if Sanji easily evaded Page One's attacks or if Page One tried to hit Sanji, and Sanji effortless evaded, speed blitzed him and then knocked him out cold with Hardened Armament.
That would be exciting to see.
Sanji's weakness has never been the lack of a weapon because he's strong. Now he needs a weapon even though all Oda needs do is make him stronger? Some may like it, others may not as you said. I just think Oda could treat Sanji better. If Sanji is supposed to be one of Luffy's main forces, then we should expect Sanji to be exponentially stronger and capable of defeating high ranked commanders.
Would it be ridiculous to claim Garp could very likely defeat Cracker purely with his fist and Haki? I don't think so, would be nice to see Sanji defeat opponents on his own merit simply with his kicking and Haki.
The Raid Suit is a cheap power-up too because Sanji is supposed to be one of the strongest characters simply with his currently style. Zoro's Swords are not power-ups. One cannot use a Sword simply by getting one, it depends on skill and physical strength. The Raid Suit can be used by anyone. Luffy or Zoro could hypothetically be given Raid Suits, and they'll become a lot more difficult to fight instantly.
I'd prefer to see Oda highlight more of Sanji's fighting prowess physically than on the Raid Suit. I'd rather Sanji used the Raid Suit Germa gave him to spy on women and use it for silly reasons to mock the Germa while using his actual strength to defeat opponents.
It's a bit ironic that people wanted Sanji to defeat his brothers for what they did to him, but they're happy with him using something they gave him because they view him as weak. It's like they got the last laugh. That's how I personally see it at least.
